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Charlie
13 Oct 20 14:27
Joined:
Date Joined: 01 Dec 01
| Topic/replies: 16,086 | Blogger: Charlie's blog
For the no need to wear a mask and no need for lockdown believers: how many deaths a day, week, etc  from covid do you believe is acceptable in the UK or England?
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Report thegiggilo October 28, 2020 8:44 PM GMT
Meanwhile we have 310 deaths 24,000 cases..no lockdown.
Report Dotchinite October 28, 2020 9:23 PM GMT
Germanys "lockdown" doesnt look any tougher than our "tier 3" does it???
Report ----you-have-to-laugh--- October 28, 2020 9:28 PM GMT
Germany's restrictions, which will be reviewed after two weeks, will mean:

Bars and pubs will shut
Restaurants to close except for takeaways
Gyms, cinemas and theatres to shut
Indoor gatherings banned for more than 10 people and between more than two households
Hotels to close to tourists - staying open only for "essential reasons"
Shops to stay open but with a maximum of one person per 10 square metres
Report eyeball October 28, 2020 9:52 PM GMT
It has taken 2.5 million years for our immune systems to evolve for attack and defence against pathogens .

Don't believe that lockdowns , distancing and hanging a bit of cloth on your ears will make any difference to the final death toll . The same

targets will die . It is not if but when . It does not solve the problem . Once you know the answer , the solution is simple .

This article explains the science https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7246956/
Report the old nanny ;-) October 28, 2020 10:09 PM GMT
They are locking down before they reach the state we are at.

Loads of Countries locked down Early Virus now rife  Death rate rising
UK figures far from Unique

Germany Being the exception in Europe
Report nineteen points October 28, 2020 10:09 PM GMT
agree with all that but cant agree with the damp cloth bit.for heavens sake,they are keeping us from extinction!
Report wolf3011 October 28, 2020 10:14 PM GMT

Oct 28, 2020 -- 3:44PM, thegiggilo wrote:


Meanwhile we have 310 deaths 24,000 cases..no lockdown.


Don't worry it will be on it's way, hopefully then you can stop whining every day about the evil tories like a stuck record

Report the old nanny ;-) October 28, 2020 10:18 PM GMT
LOCKDOWN will make very little difference you can Hide , but you cannot run  ,Co vid is going nowhere.
Report lapsy pa October 28, 2020 10:19 PM GMT
Eyeball £1 for 60,i got some on what you said before,i won't have a hope of understanding that medical jargon but certainly won't dismiss it,won't do any harm anyway.
Report eyeball October 28, 2020 10:59 PM GMT
Lapsy , It is so cheap and easy to administer with little or no side effects . Deficiency is a major world problem but the truth will come out in

the end and I may stop feeling like Ignaz Semmelweis .
Report lapsy pa October 28, 2020 11:18 PM GMT
Fair play for saying it and in good faith.
I knew nothing about it but it seems to also have a wide range of benefits,depression being one and emmmm Flu.
One common denominator/coincidence is when it is lacking it is also winter, might be something in that also but as said no medical qualifications.
Report lapsy pa October 28, 2020 11:29 PM GMT
Another "coincidence" is people with darker skin are less likely to absorb it which if the "BAME" theory that they are more susceptible to covid ties in,
Report nineteen points October 28, 2020 11:53 PM GMT
can anyone tell me how many testing stations there are in britain please? i cant find any info.
Report nineteen points October 29, 2020 8:34 AM GMT
so the knowalls dont know? or they dont want to say?
Report Charlie October 29, 2020 10:01 AM GMT
About 650.
Report nineteen points October 29, 2020 10:11 AM GMT
thank you Charlie.
Report sageform October 29, 2020 10:55 AM GMT
Germany no longer the exception. Their medical facilities are now under pressure.
Report Charlie October 29, 2020 11:00 AM GMT
Just realised I can't add up. Make that about 550.
Report nineteen points October 29, 2020 5:02 PM GMT
even more remarkable then
Report Charlie October 29, 2020 5:07 PM GMT
Remarkable in what sense?
Report thegiggilo October 29, 2020 5:15 PM GMT
Another 23,000 cases and 280 deaths,thanks to the tories manslaughter on epic scale..shirley they must do something soon this is nuts..
Report nineteen points October 29, 2020 5:45 PM GMT
remarkable in the sense that 350k going up to 500k a day can be tested in only 550 centres.
Report Charlie October 29, 2020 5:49 PM GMT

Oct 29, 2020 -- 12:45PM, nineteen points wrote:


remarkable in the sense that 350k going up to 500k a day can be tested in only 550 centres.


That is not correct though.

Report nineteen points October 29, 2020 5:51 PM GMT
i knew it wouldnt be.i am always wrong.i hope your now going to tell me the proper figures
Report Charlie October 29, 2020 5:56 PM GMT
I have a remarkable feature called Google which I'm sure is not available to you. Earlier you asked for test centres. To help you out there are also home tests.
Report nineteen points October 29, 2020 6:01 PM GMT
so you cant give me figures.i will assume mine are right then until you correct me.
Report Charlie October 29, 2020 6:03 PM GMT
I just have corrected you.
Report Mexico October 29, 2020 7:04 PM GMT
Even if only in test centers

Running 500,000 tests in 550 places is on average just under 1000 per location.
If open for 10 hours , it is 100 per hour on average.

& as mentioned home tests, private test centres etc.

Guess remarkable is a subjective emotion.
Report peckerdunne October 29, 2020 7:12 PM GMT
Just saw on TV, YOUR BARBERS IN ENGLAND WITH SHIELDS ON BUT NO MASK, have to say i'm shocked, it's no wonder the virus is rampant if that's the measures been taken, a visor in close proximity is absolutely pointless without a mask.
Report nineteen points October 29, 2020 7:24 PM GMT
so its the barbers then.now we know how its spreading so fast
Report peckerdunne October 29, 2020 7:37 PM GMT
if you can't manage a barber shop for precautionary measure you certainly can't manage 20,000 students travelling into one small town
Report Charlie October 31, 2020 7:18 PM GMT
Any Doris supporters want to answer? Or perhaps you are all still running away from the question I asked in my OP.
Report Johnny The Guesser November 2, 2020 8:22 AM GMT
Ridiculous  question Charlie.
Every death is a tragedy, but, death is inevitable. It is a worldwide pandemic with no current cure.
How many job losses, bankrupt businesses, loss of homes , decimated futures in the UK are acceptable to you ?
Report Timber November 2, 2020 8:33 AM GMT
How many deaths are acceptable from cancer?
Lots of ways to reduce those numbers too
Report Charlie November 2, 2020 8:44 AM GMT
JTG
You must have a ballpark figure in your head. As you are anti-lockdown you must think that current levels of, say, 300 a day is acceptable?
Report Johnny The Guesser November 2, 2020 9:53 AM GMT
How many road deaths are acceptable ? What about death and misery caused by alcohol or cigarettes - Are these acceptable?
Society would appear to say they are.
1600 people die everyday. It is what happens.
Total cumulative deaths in the UK since the end of the first wave are running at pretty much the 5 year average.
I'm anti full lockdown because it also causes death and misery but not recorded in a readily accessible tick box.
Report Charlie November 2, 2020 10:06 AM GMT
JTG
You are just changing the question not answering it.
Report sageform November 2, 2020 12:05 PM GMT
It is not just numbers, it is the manner of the death that matters politically. A plane crash attracts 50 times more publicity than a fatal road accident because more people are killed at one time and there is a residual suspicion among the older generation about safety of planes. There is an air safety board that spends far more time investigating a crash than is justified by the loss of life involved. Similarly if 100 people die of cancer at home, only their family notice, but if 10 Covid cases died because of a shortage of high dependency beds there would be an uproar. Patients in Rome are spending up to 12 hours in an ambulance with acute Covid symptoms as all of the beds are full. Our Government is terrified of the same happening here.
Report ----you-have-to-laugh--- November 2, 2020 12:11 PM GMT
Train crashes also gain much attention
over their merit, compared to cars.
Report wolf3011 November 2, 2020 12:21 PM GMT
The OPs question is like someone arguing that every young person under 18 should be assigned a psychiatrist/ psychologist to watch them 24/7 and when others argue how that would be a melodramatic response to potential suicides in young people reply with " how many suicides of young people per year are acceptable then".

A stupid question posed by the OP but reading his posts is it any great surprise ?
Report dukeofpuke November 2, 2020 12:38 PM GMT
Read somewhere that someone ordered a home test then filmed himself using it and then posting it,it came back positive

But the trouble was he didnt actually use it
Report nineteen points November 2, 2020 12:41 PM GMT
what about them packing 5 swabs in 1 vial! unbelievable
Report Johnny The Guesser November 2, 2020 12:52 PM GMT
Charlie - The actual question as framed is impossible to answer, as you well know.
It isn't just a death numbers question either - Is a 90 year old dying with COVID (as well as having diabetes , dementia and a heart condition) the same as a fit 25 year old dying ?
What about the death of the same 90 year old compared to a family losing their home or a previously viable business with numerous employees going bust or 500 other people having cancer treatment suspended ?
For the family of the 90 year old it is indeed a tragedy, but society as a whole needs to look at it with different emotions and take a balanced view.
Report Fatslogger November 2, 2020 1:00 PM GMT
Agree with needing to take a balanced view, JTG. I’m, I think, less in favour of very tight restrictions than Charlie, for example and it’s perfectly possible to have good faith disagreements over for example universities and secondary schools being in rather than remote, both of which I think are marginal decisions with solid arguments either way. As so often though, you seem to be weighing up the suspension of other NHS services (people usually talk about cancer) as an argument against aggressive virus control measures. It belongs on the other side of the scales. If the virus is controlled, the NHS will function as normal. If it isn’t, it won’t. Obviously there are gradations in between but that doesn’t alter the basic point.
Report dukeofpuke November 2, 2020 1:33 PM GMT
Antibodies last around 3-6 months, however these are not the primary immune response, in fact they are the final layer.

The first line of defence is the physical barrier.

The second line are the mucosa, e.g. the nose and throat. Here phagocytes engulf any infected cell, There are also dendritic cells which identify any abnormality and engulf them.

The dendritic cells then present the alien molecules to the immature T cells in the lymphatic system. The T cells then mature and are dispersed to destroy the invading alien. If needs be T messenger cells trigger B cells to produce the antibodies, but usually only if a person is very unwell.

The T cells are the immune systems memory, not antibodies.

People still have immunity to the SARS virus of 2003.

If you are asymptomatic then you definitely do not have CoViD19.

You may have SARS-CoV-2 virus present in your nasal passage and your buccal cavity but, and this is important, if your innate immune system has destroyed the virus by phagocytosis then there will be viral RNA fragments which WILL produce a positive result as much as having the full virus present, this is due to the over sensitivity of the RT-PCR test.

Most deaths have occurred not because of CoViD19 itself but by the over sensitivity of the persons own immune system, which is why it mainly affects the elderly (mean age 82) and those with co-morbidities.

Posted by Sceptic56 on LeicestershireLive
Report Charlie November 2, 2020 4:36 PM GMT
Still a disappointing zero answers to my question (apart from FS who was disqualified Grin). Lots of let's change the question as is's too difficult to answer.

Ultimately, and you may like it or not, this is the question that has to be answered.
Report Johnny The Guesser November 2, 2020 5:30 PM GMT
OK - then Charlie - How do you answer the question ?
Report nineteen points November 2, 2020 5:32 PM GMT
he never ever answers anything.dont waste your time
Report Charlie November 2, 2020 5:34 PM GMT
JTG
The question doesn't apply to me.
Report Fatslogger November 2, 2020 5:37 PM GMT
To be fair, Charlie, your initial question doesn’t but you could still nominate some kind of a trade off number.
Report Charlie November 2, 2020 5:39 PM GMT
5
Report eyeball November 2, 2020 5:42 PM GMT
well done duke . Now google t cells vitamin d
Report Charlie November 2, 2020 5:50 PM GMT
To clarify I meant five a day. Now after a little rethink I'd go for 10 a week in the UK.
Report Johnny The Guesser November 2, 2020 5:59 PM GMT
I'll play along - Please define a death from COVID , Charlie ?
Report Charlie November 2, 2020 6:00 PM GMT
The accepted definition.
Report Charlie November 2, 2020 6:02 PM GMT
PHE definition for example. Anything similar.
Report Johnny The Guesser November 2, 2020 6:02 PM GMT
If I'm going to supply my number I need to know what I'm including and over what time period ?

How many deaths from COVID have we had so far ?
Report Charlie November 2, 2020 6:05 PM GMT
Read OP.
Report Charlie November 2, 2020 6:06 PM GMT
It isn't a trick question.
Report Johnny The Guesser November 2, 2020 6:14 PM GMT
OK - I'll go for 42.
Report Charlie November 2, 2020 6:16 PM GMT
A day, week, Galaxy?
Report Charlie November 2, 2020 6:18 PM GMT
JTG
You'll be filed under the "haven't got the balls to answer a question" category. You can join many of your friends above.
Report Johnny The Guesser November 2, 2020 6:20 PM GMT
I've answered  Charlie - read through the thread.
Report Charlie November 2, 2020 6:21 PM GMT
No balls.
Report Charlie November 2, 2020 6:50 PM GMT
So JTG has shown he's got none, I'm not surprised as he's joined a long list.
Report shiny new shoes please November 2, 2020 7:00 PM GMT
789 extra deaths compared to last 5 years.
Fact.in eire.
Was it worth it ,
No.
Report Jumping-cuckoo-monk November 2, 2020 7:02 PM GMT
Johnny The Guesser

OK - I'll go for 42.
Report Jumping-cuckoo-monk November 2, 2020 7:08 PM GMT
.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xmBCh76_qWE&list=RDxmBCh76_qWE&start_radio=1&t=5
Report Jumping-cuckoo-monk November 2, 2020 7:12 PM GMT
.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iWBiERHSEhg
Report 1st time poster November 2, 2020 7:16 PM GMT
north west ambulance call state of emergency tonight,dont call/dont expect an ambulance unless its life or death,
Report sageform November 3, 2020 5:28 PM GMT
The number of deaths is a side issue. The main problem is the number of high dependency patients in hospital as it was back in March/April. If the hospitals finally throw in the towel (as they are getting very close to doing in some areas) death rates will rocket. I shall continue to self isolate for as long as it takes and probably die from something else.
Report Charlie November 3, 2020 5:47 PM GMT
sageform I know you speak from the heart and do respect you.

But the number of deaths is not a side issue. Somebody has to decide when the number of deaths from covid, without a lockdown (as per my OP), is unacceptable. Deaths from covid are currently directly proportional to the number of people catching it. The more people that catch it the more strain on the NHS. Somebody has to decide how many deaths are acceptable without lockdown. So far only FS and myself have answered.
Report Johnny The Guesser November 3, 2020 6:08 PM GMT
Hey Charlie - I fancy another go , if I'm allowed.
Please define a death from COVID - I fancy another go.
How many deaths from COVID have there been so far ? - I can't find any numbers myself , please remind me.
Report Charlie November 3, 2020 6:10 PM GMT
Reread thread.
Report Johnny The Guesser November 3, 2020 6:34 PM GMT
Aaah Charlie - you mean the numbers we get spoon fed each day - but aren't these the "died for whatever reason but within 28 days of a positive COVID test" numbers?
Where can I see the actually died from COVID numbers ? Are you keeping these to yourself so you can win the game - Information is power and all that Devil
For such an important decision, we all need to see the actual died from numbers so we know when to take action.
Post the scores on the doors so far and I'll have a pop.
Thanks
Report Charlie November 3, 2020 6:38 PM GMT
Try Google.
Report Johnny The Guesser November 3, 2020 6:43 PM GMT
Nope - nothing - best I can get is "related to COVID " - the died from COVID numbers just don't exist. What do we do now ?
Tell you what - Shall we just guess when to lockdown ? I'm good at guessing.
Report Charlie November 3, 2020 6:44 PM GMT
Try Bing.
Report Johnny The Guesser November 3, 2020 6:46 PM GMT
Tried Bing - It told me .. "I had asked a silly question"..
Report Charlie November 3, 2020 6:48 PM GMT
Try The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy that seems to be where you get your info from.
Report Fatslogger November 3, 2020 7:17 PM GMT
The ONS reports this in detail.  There are lots of different numbers one can look at to determine Covid deaths, all with their own faults.

Government report deaths within 28 days of a Covid diagnosis - misses quite a few early out of hospital deaths from before testing available widely in initial peak.  Also misses deaths from Covid but beyond 28 days from diagnosis, not that uncommon in patients spending long periods on ITU.  Includes deaths of non Covid causes in patients testing positive within the last month, which seems to get the libertarian right all of a lather, as if there are vast numbers of Covid positive people dying of a car accident or whatever.  There really aren't, as the ONS stats based on death certification reports show - these give higher numbers.
Report Fatslogger November 3, 2020 7:17 PM GMT

Nov 3, 2020 -- 12:48PM, Charlie wrote:


Try The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy that seems to be where you get your info from.


Douglas Adams would have been driven completely loopy by plenty of recent events. He believed in evidence and science.

Report thegiggilo November 3, 2020 8:55 PM GMT
Another 397 to the tory death cult today,conveniently just under 400 reminds me of the figures we were getting under a thousand when we were in fact getting a 1,000 a day...
Report ----you-have-to-laugh--- November 3, 2020 10:07 PM GMT
... And they saved some up to slip in 10
days later having declared
under 1000 a day,... Nothing to hide!
Report dukeofpuke November 4, 2020 12:32 PM GMT
If thousands and thousands are getting covid in care homes and then most die how the hell is this lockdown going to work

How do they get it well it most be from the carers and maybe in some cases family

It just doesnt make sense
Report thegiggilo November 4, 2020 4:46 PM GMT
Tory death squad 492 deaths,who could possibly have known...
Report thegiggilo November 4, 2020 4:46 PM GMT
Tory death squad 492 deaths,who could possibly have known...
Report Charlie November 5, 2020 5:01 PM GMT
Tories beginning to see sense with furlough extended to March. Lock everything down now including education, everybody entering country to be quarantined for two weeks, restrict public transport to essential workers, provide help to those who need it for shopping and receiving medication, I could go on but you get the idea.
Report sageform November 5, 2020 8:03 PM GMT
Right Charlie, when I read the list of businesses that can still open, I despaired. How many businesses will just change the sign outside to "garden centre" pet shop, college, you name it. Just open food shops and medical facilities and fine anything else that is still trading. This can't work with so many businesses open.
Report peckerdunne November 5, 2020 8:06 PM GMT
Clearly 500 a day is the watershed moment.


Funniest thing iv'e heard in ages, from Rishi this morning.

'If we hadn't kept the economy open we wouldn't have been able to extend the furlough'.
Report sixtwosix November 5, 2020 8:22 PM GMT
When Manchester asked for 80% ,they were told there was little cash left......... now everyone can have 80% for 6 more months ....this will not be forgotten when the conservatives are wiped out at the next election.
Report 1st time poster November 5, 2020 8:27 PM GMT
reporter to johnson,
trump gone
4 week lock down
500 deaths
brexit talks stalled
increased furlough

johnson ive had better days but farage lost 10 grand on trump LaughLaugh
Report nineteen points November 5, 2020 8:38 PM GMT
1tp can you post a link for that?
Report Johnny The Guesser November 5, 2020 8:57 PM GMT

Nov 5, 2020 -- 11:01AM, Charlie wrote:


Tories beginning to see sense with furlough extended to March. Lock everything down now including education, everybody entering country to be quarantined for two weeks, restrict public transport to essential workers, provide help to those who need it for shopping and receiving medication, I could go on but you get the idea.


How's is all this going to be paid for Charlie ?

Report 1st time poster November 5, 2020 9:16 PM GMT
sorry 19 just a bit of fun,although all papers had photo,s of farage and his bet

my fun was based on piggot.m,carron tennis joke, LaughLaugh
Report peckerdunne November 5, 2020 10:15 PM GMT
How's is all this going to be paid for Charlie ?

By the 100 year bond.
Report Charlie November 20, 2020 6:11 PM GMT
Things not looking good.
Report Johnny The Guesser November 21, 2020 9:15 AM GMT
Spot on Charlie ! - lockdown causing untold misery on millions with little or no risk from the virus. (42 deaths in the under 40s with no pre existing conditions , 275 in total)
Excess deaths now similar to the 5 year average (not even close to the 4000 a day quoted by the "experts")  , hospital numbers below normal levels for this time of the year (Yes , there are pinch points in the north but NHS in general is not "overwhelmed" or anywhere close).
Report Charlie January 26, 2021 7:12 PM GMT
Anyone want to answer now?
Report lapsy pa January 26, 2021 7:55 PM GMT
Not a direct answer Charlie but Prof Fergusons 500,000 estimate without restrictions is starting to look fairly accurate imo.
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