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irishone
30 Sep 20 18:28
Joined:
Date Joined: 22 Sep 06
| Topic/replies: 44,760 | Blogger: irishone's blog
Pop down your local hospital
No need to wear a facemask
Tell them you are willing to help
Clean up the covid ward
For free just for one night
Do something useful ffs
Pause Switch to Standard View To all you covid non believers
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Report scandanavian_haven November 15, 2020 2:06 PM GMT
And how long does immunity last
Report Whisperingdeath November 15, 2020 2:10 PM GMT
absolutely Mexico

Does it work?

How do we know it is safe?

Why do they need a liability exemption?

Why do they treat anxiety and depression with drugs that can cause anxiety and depression?


I am not an anti vaxxer but I wonder why these drug companies are giving so many inducements to Doctors to dish out drugs like smarties

Tell me something Mexico. How many times if at all have you heard the great and wise scientists and doctors say

Go out and get fresh air

Do some exercise

East fresh fruit and vegetables

Meet friends at a safe distance and have a LAUGH

Is it any coincidence that these things don't make money for Big Pharma?

Again I ask who has received money from Bill Gates?
Report Whisperingdeath November 15, 2020 2:12 PM GMT
oh and I don't claim I am not into conspiracy....I am not into conspiracy but I do love a tall tale!
Report Mexico November 15, 2020 2:14 PM GMT
Also a good relevant question haven.
Could argue that is part of the "does it work" question.

Either way far more important that if any scientist gets a discount from Microsoft for their version of Office.

Is Gates actually involved in the development of these vaccines- I understand he would like the developing World to have access to vaccines & health care in general. I didn't know he had much to do with the development & testing of this vaccine.
Report i_agree_with_nick November 15, 2020 2:16 PM GMT
Pfizer's CEO sold about 60% of his stock ($5.6m) on Monday, shortly after the announcement.

Nice little earner but I don't see this as a negative issue.
Report Whisperingdeath November 15, 2020 2:19 PM GMT
Again I ask the question how many scientists and Doctors on SAGE have had money from Bill Gates and why?

Another good question is how many people under 60 have died from the virus who weren't fat or had diabetes or some sort of COPD.
Report Mexico November 15, 2020 2:23 PM GMT
Love the questions with the magic "They" appearing in each one.
Who are "they"? Whispering. Are "they" Lizzards?


Not really sure how it is possible to go to your friends to a big football game in a crowd of 60,000 and keep at a safe distance. Or go to a concert, nightclub even a family wedding with food & dancing.

Doctors do recommend exercise, decent diet , good mental health. I suspect Mr Gates doesn't object to a healthy lifestyle. Still got f-all to do with how safe & effective a vaccine is.
Report Mexico November 15, 2020 2:25 PM GMT
I am surprised by that news Nick.
I would have expected the CEO to have much more than $10m in shares in Pfizer. Maybe he doesn't earn as much as I suspected.
Report Whisperingdeath November 15, 2020 2:27 PM GMT
Simple question

How many people have died from Covid-19 aged under 60 who were not fat or suffering from an existing condition?

Why do University students need a vaccine? or young people, children or anyone under the age of 70?
Report nineteen points November 15, 2020 2:28 PM GMT
i find it strange,annoying,patronising and many more things that if someone has an opinion or asks a genuine question against the established media driven govt script,they are now accused of being "anti" or a conspiratist.can someone not have an opinion or ask questions about whats happening in their lives these days?

heres a question for the experts on here.

how many positive covid cases that we hear about wore masks? or was every case a horrid stupid non masker? be interesting to see percentage.
Report Whisperingdeath November 15, 2020 2:31 PM GMT
It wasn't a rhetorical question but it would appear in the region of 10% of deaths are from people aged under 60. It does not say if they were over weight or suffering from pre existing conditions.

We are not fighting the Nazis in a World War lasting almost 7 years!
Report i_agree_with_nick November 15, 2020 2:31 PM GMT
Mex,

His total pay last year was $18.2m

I just hope that the fact that he has cashed out so quickly doesn't mean that ongoing testing and reviews results in a downgrading of the vaccine's effectiveness or safety.

After all, we've only really had a press release from the company that produces the vaccine.
Report Whisperingdeath November 15, 2020 2:32 PM GMT
Covid-19 is so dangerous many people need a test to see if they have it!
Report Whisperingdeath November 15, 2020 2:34 PM GMT
The question shouldn't be does the vaccine work but why do we need it!
Report i_agree_with_nick November 15, 2020 2:34 PM GMT
Why do University students need a vaccine? or young people, children or anyone under the age of 70?


Because we can't achieve herd immunity until at least 60% of the population are vaccinated.

Also, the vaccine might be less than 90% effective in older people and those with weakened immune systems therefore youngsters will be able to transmit the virus to the vulnerable.
Report Whisperingdeath November 15, 2020 2:35 PM GMT
The latest NHS figures for England show that 253 people under the age of 60 with no underlying health conditions have died from Covid-19 in hospitals.
Report Whisperingdeath November 15, 2020 2:37 PM GMT
Because we can't achieve herd immunity until at least 60% of the population are vaccinated.


Thank you for replying!

Does anyone know how many people dies from non covid-19 related flu this year?
Report Whisperingdeath November 15, 2020 2:38 PM GMT
FACT: Flu kills. An average of 8000 people die from flu in England each year. Adults with chronic respiratory conditions are 7 times more likely to die if they catch flu compared to healthy adults, and people with cardiovascular disease are 11 times more likely to die.
Report nineteen points November 15, 2020 2:47 PM GMT
bloke who invented vaccine said on andrew marr this morning that would only work on about 25-40% of folk over 50.not really the saviour we are being told.
Report i_agree_with_nick November 15, 2020 2:51 PM GMT
I didn't hear that, 19.  If correct, that re-enforces my earlier point and answers Whispering's question about why younger people should be vaccinated.
Report mafeking November 15, 2020 3:00 PM GMT
certainly think you'll have a problem convincing a significant proportion of people say under 40 to take an hugely experimental vaccine in the short term at least. why wouldn't they wait a year or 2 to see what happens when they are at no real risk from covid ?
Report Fatslogger November 15, 2020 3:16 PM GMT

Nov 15, 2020 -- 1:48PM, dukeofpuke wrote:


If you think long term infections can explain a rise in cases from very low levels in the summer, you aren’t thinking logically.Please explain 'where' these new 'infections' have come from (students,schools,eat out,travellers)1st start by explaining in exact detail how the 'test' works (does it pick up active virus or dead recent part of it)Then try to explain how the infection 'spreads' from person to person (if its that infectious the stats will show this)Then explain why or how masks work or dont work (not all masks are the same)Explain how this 'lockdown' will work (the 1st one brought the rates down or did it or was that just 'nature')Explain why supermarkets and smaller shops that sell food and takeaways are staying open (must be millions per day going out to them)


If you want a primer in epidemiology there are places to get one. I can recommend the More or Less podcast for a lot of decent level exposition of the science and especially the stats. I’ve not got time in my life for a full sealion. I’ve done most of this already, apart from anything else. Why don’t you tell me how it’s realistic that increasing infection rates progressively from the summer into the autumn can be due to old infections and we can go from there?

Report Fatslogger November 15, 2020 3:18 PM GMT

Nov 15, 2020 -- 3:37PM, Whisperingdeath wrote:


Because we can't achieve herd immunity until at least 60% of the population are vaccinated.Thank you for replying!Does anyone know how many people dies from non covid-19 related flu this year?


It will be very few indeed. Flu surveillance is picking up hardly any this year, because the measures that work against Covid work even better against a respiratory virus with a lower Re.

Report Mexico November 15, 2020 3:19 PM GMT
Is this the story 19?

Asked if the vaccine was as effective in older people as it is in younger people, he said he expected to have a better idea in the next three weeks.


https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-54949799
Report Fatslogger November 15, 2020 3:23 PM GMT

Nov 15, 2020 -- 4:00PM, mafeking wrote:


certainly think you'll have a problem convincing a significant proportion of people say under 40 to take an hugely experimental vaccine in the short term at least. why wouldn't they wait a year or 2 to see what happens when they are at no real risk from covid ?


There won’t be any immediate attempt to vaccinate low risk people who aren’t health and care sector workers, because there’s nowhere near enough vaccine to do so! So, in so far as it’s experimental to take a vaccine tested on upwards of 20k people (as I’ve said, it’s not zero risk) it will be experimented on in the elderly and vulnerable and care and health workers. Young people don’t need to worry too much, right now.

Report Whisperingdeath November 15, 2020 3:58 PM GMT
Ferguson H1N1 case study — Patrick Vallance — GlaxoSmithKline

At this point, I would like to go back in time to 2009 and Ferguson/Imperial College’s analysis of swine flu, H1N1: they claimed this virus would take the lives of 65,000 people in the UK. In the end, 457 people died from the virus.

In response to the threat of swine flu, Big Pharma giant GlaxoSmithKline (GSK) developed the Pandemrix vaccine, with disastrous consequences. An alleged sixty patients who suffered brain damage as a result of the vaccine were allocated £60 million in compensation by the UK Government. Most of the victims were children. As one report has it: “It was subsequently revealed that the vaccine, Pandemrix, can cause narcolepsy and cataplexy in about one in 16,000 people, and many more are expected to come forward with the symptoms.”

A later British Medical Journal (BMJ) report deemed that GSK and health authorities had failed to warn the public of the vaccine’s alarming “safety signal”.

The vaccine was developed by GSK and patented in September 2006. Pandemrix contained a flu strain recommended by the WHO. After reports of brain damage began to emerge, the WHO revised their advice to urge “restricted use” for people under the age of 20. Pandemrix is no longer licensed for use, but at the time, the Gordon Brown-led Labour government had granted GSK indemnity. Details of that agreement have never been made public.

From 2012 to March 2018, Sir Patrick Vallance was president of research and development at GSK. He went directly from GSK to his post as the UK Government chief scientific adviser.
Report Whisperingdeath November 15, 2020 4:01 PM GMT
At this point I would like to thank all you people on here in advance for taking the miracle cure vaccine and sincerely hope there are no bad side effects. Thank you again in advance. I for my part in a bid to combat the deadly virus will be playing plenty of sport outdoors and eating plenty of fresh fruit and vegetables. I shall also imbibe plenty of alcohol and laugh a lot. I hope to still be with you in the years ahead!
Report Whisperingdeath November 15, 2020 4:03 PM GMT
UK PM Boris Johnson has met with billionaire vaccine evangelist Bill Gates and 10 Big Pharma CEOs to discuss rolling out the Covid-19 jab and unveil the country’s new Gates-funded plan to “prevent future pandemics.”
The pharmaceutical lovefest, conducted virtually on Tuesday, saw all 10 execs “re-commit” to ensuring fair global access to any successful Covid-19 vaccines in the wake of positive yet vague news about Pfizer’s jab, which has yet to be approved in the UK even as the National Health Service prepares to start vaccinating people as early as December.

During the roundtable, Johnson reaffirmed his commitment to using the UK’s G7 presidency next year to impose a sweeping global health plan developed by the Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation in partnership with the Wellcome Trust in the name of preventing future pandemics. Gates, who lacks a college degree or medical training, praised Johnson for allowing his foundation to craft UK (and potentially global) health policy as the PM restated the Gates Foundation’s five-point plan for the nation’s new “global approach” to “health security.”
Report Whisperingdeath November 15, 2020 4:05 PM GMT
Gates, who lacks a college degree or medical training, praised Johnson for allowing his foundation to craft UK (and potentially global) health policy as the PM restated the Gates Foundation’s five-point plan for the nation’s new “global approach” to “health security.”
Report nineteen points November 15, 2020 4:12 PM GMT
no mex.andrew marr show this morning. if i am wrong then i apologise.
Report Mexico November 15, 2020 4:57 PM GMT
19

That link was a BBC report about Marr interview, I know it isn't the same as watching the show on I-player but I woukd rather watch tge football & maybe some golf.


I can't find that quote about being 25%-40% effective for over50s, I would have thought the Daily Mail would be all over it. Or somebody would have posted a link to the show saying watch from 38th minute.

Personally I find the "best wait 3 weeks" is more inline with what a multi-millionaire CEO would say rather than the "doomed - we're all doomed " response.

Even if it is 90% effective in the over 50's it will still be months before we return to some sort of normal. Until then I fear we will have some social distancing requirements, although hopefully with pubs & restaurants open. I would fancy an afternoon out to watch some horse racing or even some football, might be a long wait.
Report Mexico November 15, 2020 5:10 PM GMT
Yep whisper a good point about Gates not having a college degree, I mean what a loser he is.

How silly of him to drop out of Harvard to set up a small computer software company in a garage with his friends.
Loser or what.

Does anyone even know the name of that obscure company he set up. What a mug Gates is - he should have stayed at Harvard.
Assume you graduated from Harvard Whisper or was a different Cambridge?

BTW how exactly is Gate's University relevant to his safe & effective a Covid vaccine is, he wasn't involved in the development or testing program.
Guess what Whisper, some of the guys involved with the vaccine development DID have a college degree. Amazing!
Report Whisperingdeath November 15, 2020 7:01 PM GMT
Absolutely agree. I don't have a science degree. I didn't get covid though unlike the Prime Minister, the Health Secretary, The Chief Medical Officer, The Chief Scientific Adviser, The Health Minister et al but what do I know of science?

I know this much...They are not Gods and do not get it right all the time. They even get it drastically wrong as we have seen. While the lemmings keep believing what they are told I have a problem. My liberty and health is being decided upon by people who could not even manage to organise a press conference in a room that provided safe distancing and people like YOU want ME to trust them to deliver a vaccine that is safe.

YOU people don't even question their decisions or motives. Why is Bill gates giving millions to a BBC Charity? To get his message heard perhaps whatever that is? Why is one quarter of the WHO health budget spent on dealing with Polio...perhaps because Mr Gates is the second biggest donor? Bigger than even The United Kingdom of great Britain and Northern Ireland? and what he says goes? So rather than helping many millions who need it he has the budget to eradicate Polio and maybe canonisation from the Pope?

Listen I don't know what Bill Gates intentions are. He might be a good man but he also might be wrong and we need to question his intensions and motives and not walk into a nightmare like sheep.

It is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle than a rich man through the gates of heaven. Baby Jesus is not impressed by money!
Report nineteen points November 15, 2020 7:07 PM GMT
whisper do you really think they all got it? it was just 1st round of project fear.why would all this be happening for a bug which only laid our top people out of action for a week and trump for 3 days.either they are superhuman or we are mugs.
Report Whisperingdeath November 15, 2020 7:15 PM GMT
Dorris got it dude!  He looked like sheite! He looked like he had it well before it was confirmed. Handjob, I don't know. Probably was just hiding because he didn't have a clue what he was doing. her is up against Piers Morgan tomorrow morning. Should be interesting.

Government members were stopped from going on Good Morning Britain because they were asking questions and the the lemmings they put up looked stupid and inept!

Maybe Mexico thinks people like Piers Morgan should not ask the Government of the day questions?
Report scandanavian_haven November 15, 2020 7:20 PM GMT
piers morgan never cares about the answers as long as he looks good
Report Mexico November 15, 2020 7:40 PM GMT
Whisper

What are you on about?

You ask loads of pointless questions about Bill Gates & the magic "they" , yet still don't seem to be interested in asking relevant questions about the vaccine I.e. Does it work? Is it safe?
You bought up Gates not having a college degree to imply what a loser he is .  Nice distraction.

Now you come up with some garbage about my opinion about Piers Morgan -wtf?

I've mentioned many times that I believe the government have been very poor since July. They don't seem to have a plan, they are reactionary & seem to do everything weeks after they should.
They mocked Labour & Starmer for saying we should have a 2 week lockdown with school shut, now we gave a 4 week lockdown which really hasn't started well in terms of case numbers. Government failed to enforce their Swedish style rules , then came up with new restrictions every 2 weeks. They had a Manchester standoff for 2 weeks because wouldn't pay the furlough which mayor wanted. Yet the magic money tree was working when the whole of England went into This current fudged lockdown.

We still don't know what "success" is for this 4 week lockdown.
Report nineteen points November 15, 2020 7:49 PM GMT
morgan preaching for lockdowns.he will be music to handcocks ears.no wonder he is going on.
Report Whisperingdeath November 15, 2020 7:59 PM GMT
Mexico

I am just making the point that there are powerful forces at work and very few are questioning what is going on. Do we really need these vaccines?

Test, trace and isolate has cost 12 billion so far. I actually cannot believe to believe this figure is true tbh. Jobs for the Toryboy wives now. The vaccine Czar is an old school friend of Dorris' sister.

Meanwhile free school meals for those in need was being fought by Government and will only cost £15 million.

I am just asking questions. I will not be taking the vaccine. I don't think I need it. I will stick with grapes and blueberries at my cost not the tax payer.
Report Whisperingdeath November 15, 2020 8:03 PM GMT
Not sure what Morgans position is. Cant stand the bloke usually as he is a typical BMW but he is the only one who held the Government to account as far as I saw. He might be affected by the plight of Garroway's old man.

I feel sorry for those who are going to be losing their jobs, their homes, their minds and their businesses. Also cancer sufferers and people in pain needing operations.
Report stroodle November 15, 2020 8:09 PM GMT
https://twitter.com/piersmorgan/status/1328033587770363908?s=20
Report Mexico November 15, 2020 8:29 PM GMT
Whisper

You are not just making the point that powerful people are trying to find a solution.

You are spinning ilrelevant questions but don't seem to be interested in knowing if vaccine works & if it is safe.

You put some spin on that college drop out Gates - what a loser, he just didn't have the brains to cope with life in Cambridge and retired to a garage to be a computer geek. He could have been successful but the loser didn't even complete his college degree.

I should hope that powerful organisations are working towards a Covid solution, would you prefer the girl guides to be working on a vaccine rather than a bunch of experienced scientists- with your beloved college education.


Whisper good of you to save the taxpayer £1000 or whatever the vaccine costs - hardly a surprise, nice spin to make it sound like you a a great hero.  I assume that if you catch Covid and need hospital treatment you will refuse as don't want to waste taxpayers money?
Report dukeofpuke November 15, 2020 8:42 PM GMT
Here we go just been announced on BBC radio, big announcements in the weeks ahead regarding the spending review
Report dukeofpuke November 15, 2020 8:44 PM GMT
I wonder who will be paying and how
Report Whisperingdeath November 15, 2020 9:10 PM GMT
Mexico,

I am think I am making plenty of good points.

I wouldn't want to go to hospital if I was fit and healthy let alone if I was ill!

Do you know how many people have died in hospital this year or caught covid and died as a result?

I might not have set up a business in a garage and ripped my mates off but hey I still haven't got covid!
Report mafeking November 15, 2020 9:17 PM GMT
if we'd had a 2 week lockdown at the beginning of october as recommended by SAGE (has any body been less well named ?) then all that would have done is delayed things a bit. by mid november we'd have been in more or less the same position and they'd have wanted another one. lockdowns are really pretty ineffective other than making poor people much poorer
Report nineteen points November 15, 2020 9:20 PM GMT
is that not the plan though mafe?
Report dukeofpuke November 15, 2020 10:45 PM GMT
Das Einzig Wahre
Report mafeking November 15, 2020 10:49 PM GMT
oh yeah SAGE and absolute idiots like hancock would have repeated lockdowns from here until eternity if they get their way. stating the obvious but no politician, scientist or member of the MSM has lost a single penny this year but they are ones leading the charge for this lunacy time and time again
Report dukeofpuke November 15, 2020 10:58 PM GMT
Muse Lyrics
"Uprising"

Paranoia is in bloom,
The PR transmissions will resume
They'll try to push drugs that keep us all dumbed down
And hope that we will never see the truth around
(so come on)

Another promise, another seed
Another packaged lie to keep us trapped in greed
And all the green belts wrapped around our minds
And endless red tape to keep the truth confined
(so come on)

They will not force us
They will stop degrading us
They will not control us
We will be victorious
(so come on)

Interchanging mind control
Come, let the revolution take its toll
If you could flick the switch and open your third eye
You'd see that we should never be afraid to die
(so come on)

Rise up and take the power back
It's time the fat cats had a heart attack
You know that their time's coming to an end
We have to unify and watch our flag ascend
(so come on)

They will not force us
They will stop degrading us
They will not control us
We will be victorious
(so come on)

Hey, hey, hey, hey
Hey, hey, hey, hey
Hey, hey, hey, hey

They will not force us
They will stop degrading us
They will not control us
We will be victorious
(so come on)

Hey, hey, hey, hey
Report dukeofpuke November 15, 2020 10:59 PM GMT
Thats from 2009
Report Coachbuster November 15, 2020 11:00 PM GMT
now i'm a Believer   ♩ ♪ ♫ ♬
Report dukeofpuke November 15, 2020 11:49 PM GMT
Would any sane person put their future, health, well being in this shower of the upmost ****

Anybody who follows ,believes,endorses this utter madness

Then time will be your judge
Report shiny new shoes please November 16, 2020 1:04 PM GMT
Breaking news @ dail.,Euro ,policy.uk.to follow.

SOLIDARITY TAX FOR COVID to be introduced.
We're all in this together.

Worry not thou big business are exempt.

ONLY THE MUGS WILL PAY.
THAT'S YOU.
Report dukeofpuke November 16, 2020 3:24 PM GMT
The revelation that both Pfizer and Modena have created seemingly effective and safe Covid vaccines that could be here by December is surely the first bit of good news 2020 has brought us. But we are, of course, nowhere near yet out of the woods. Even if a vaccine gets regulatory approval by early December, all our resources and logistics will have to be focused on procuring, delivering, and then monitoring its roll-out.

Boris Johnson himself has urged caution about the Pfizer vaccine, saying ‘there is a long way before we have got this thing beat’. But while the PM is displaying a healthy degree of realism about the challenges of deploying a vaccine, is the government still in a make-believe world when it comes to mass-testing gimmicks?

The latest scheme is the ‘moonshot’ testing programme in Liverpool, which aims to distribute rapid tests to the entire area’s population. Johnson has said that if the pilot is a success, millions of tests could be distributed elsewhere in the country before Christmas to help local authorities drive down transmission in their areas and this could enable us to defeat the virus by spring.

‘Operation Moonshot’ certainly has many advocates, including Professor John Bell of Oxford University. Those in favour of the scheme point out that lateral flow tests could have a 99.6 per cent accuracy rate, only take 15 minutes to give results, and can be administered by non-medical staff. The idea is that people would be able to test themselves in their own homes and if they are ‘Covid-free’, live their lives as normal – allowing society to fully open up.

But one basic question remains when it comes to schemes like the Liverpool moonshot programme: apart from detecting symptomatic carriers of the disease, what is the purpose of mass testing? Whether we like it or not, Covid-19 is an endemic virus now. It has been present for many months in Europe and has fully spread through the UK population. Any hope that a testing and isolation strategy will eliminate the virus at this stage is just fanciful: it has affected far too many people. Trying to stop Covid spreading by isolating people now is like trying to stamp out the common cold – no matter how much money you throw at a testing scheme, more infections will always spring up .

Nor does testing people to find asymptomatic carriers of the disease solve the problem. A recent study estimated that only around 11 per cent of people in the UK fully follow self-isolation measures when advised to do so by the test and trace programme. You would think that all of the government’s focus would be on trying to improve this figure, but instead Matt Hancock appears to be acting as if he’s on a blue-sky away-day, producing one idea after the next with little evidence to back it up.

Portable lateral flow tests certainly sound exciting – but there are increasing concerns from some experts in the field about the Liverpool scheme. They have noted that currently there is very little validation of the tests being used, with no formal studies taking place which examine large numbers of people in the community with these kits, and comparing their accuracy to PCR tests. This means that in many cases we do not know if the Innova tests being deployed in Liverpool are correctly diagnosing people with coronavirus, or if they are picking up small amounts of the virus.

So what has happened in Liverpool? Well up to 12 November, figures quoted in the local press suggest that 44,233 tests had been completed as part of the scheme, resulting in only 249 positive tests – well below current formal PCR testing rates elsewhere.

It is not surprising that positive rates are lower in Liverpool – PCR tests are more likely to get positive results when you’re only testing those with symptoms. But what about the accuracy of the lateral flow tests? An evaluation of the Innova test by Public Health England now puts the real-world accuracy rate of these tests at 84.7 per cent, with an even lower figure of 76.8 per cent positivity rate when used on people who have already tested positive using a PCR test.

This is well below the original 99.6 per cent figure quoted.

Recent analysis funded by the National Institute for Health Research shows that where tests are taken is also important when it comes to portable antigen kits. When the tests were used in a community centre they recorded 58 per cent sensitivity (the chance of picking up a positive case), 73 per cent sensitivity in a hospital with experienced nurses performing the test and 79 per cent in a laboratory environment compared with PCR.

Therefore, depending on the location, between half and a quarter of positive cases could be missed.

The failure of mass-testing schemes to detect positive cases isn’t harmless. There is a real danger here that people are given a false sense of security after receiving a false negative result, and therefore more outbreaks occur. The lateral flow tests being rolled out by the government in Liverpool and elsewhere are clearly not fit for purpose. This would have been evident had the usual piloting approach been followed rather than the mass roll-out currently being pursued by the government. As a result, it is likely that millions, if not billions of pounds may be lost. Up to £100 billion is already being set aside for mass-testing programmes in the UK (the total NHS budget for 2018-19 was £114 billion).

On many levels the whole affair is nonsensical. The portable tests have not been trialled properly on asymptomatic people and give results which could miss many cases and therefore may promote transmission within the community by giving a false sense of security.

The WHO and SAGE have stated that testing is important to catch people who are symptomatic and to promote self-isolation in those who need it. That is all testing will be useful for. Mass testing is arguably unethical, produces valueless results, and may even be harmful. Rather than waste our resource on mad ‘Moonshot’ programmes, it is vitally that we instead focus fully on the delivery of a hopefully safe and effective vaccine.

WRITTEN BY
Dr Waqar Rashid
Dr Waqar Rashid is a consultant neurologist at St George's University Foundation Hospital NHS Trust, London. This article is a personal view and does not necessarily represent the views of the Trust. He tweets at @DrWaqarRashid1
Report Fatslogger November 16, 2020 5:35 PM GMT
I wouldn’t go to a neurologist first for an opinion on mass testing but I do share at least a proportion of his scepticism, even if some of his arguments are a bit odd, like the implication that we should be putting so much effort into rolling out a vaccine that we shouldn’t be doing other innovative things.

As always, this needs rigorous analysis to assess how well it works and what overall utility it offers in a broader context.
Report nineteen points November 18, 2020 9:50 AM GMT
figures out today say

the chance of the average brit dying today is 1 in 42,000

the chance of the average brit dying today of covid is 1 in 110,000

desperate times.
Report Whisperingdeath November 18, 2020 10:34 AM GMT
It would appear the vaccine may well be safe which is great news for people like me. I still will not get vaccinated unless I am coerced into it. The only possible down side is it may not be as effective on the people who need it and that puts greater emphasis on people who don’t need it to get it.

I still believe good nutrition, fresh air, exercise and sunlight is the best way to mitigate the effects of the disease. The money being spent on lockdown and vaccines is going to be astronomical and the people who needed protecting were the most exposed. The rest of us will be paying for it.
Report Mexico November 18, 2020 11:04 AM GMT
WD

Pretty much every health worker would recommend a lifestyle of healthy eating, exercise etc. If everybody in the country lived a "perfect" lifestyle the NHS budget could be cut.  It is possible to eat well AND have a vaccine, they are not mutually exclusive.

If anybody really wants to reduce the probability of dying from Covid then could follow Trump's idea of drinking bleach, I suspect chainsaw wrestling & Russian roulette also reduce the chances of getting ill from Covid, although there is very little empirical evidence to back up this theory.

As so many on here demonstrate, it does actually take a fair bit of intelligence, education, experience to understand statistics & make sense of masses of data and understand cause & effect. Desperate times indeed.
Report Whisperingdeath November 18, 2020 11:24 AM GMT
Mexico

The wrong questions are being asked all the time

As so many on here demonstrate, it does actually take a fair bit of intelligence, education, experience to understand statistics & make sense of masses of data and understand cause & effect.

If these people are so bloody smart Mexico perhaps you could tell me why they left the old folks in Care Homes to die?

Why did they send old people with covid to Care Homes to infect others

Tell me why they did not ensure care Home workers had proper PPE

Tell me why they did not shut down flights from Italy and Spain until mid March

Please tell me Mexico as I am a simple fellow.

tell me also why we should trust these intelligent people who in addition to being inept and incompetent have also been lying to us?

What science are they following?
Report Mexico November 18, 2020 11:41 AM GMT
WD

I see what you mean by asking the wrong questions & being a simple fellow.

Am I correct in thinking you are asking me a series of questions on a betting forum  about what the UK government did in March.


The stats guys didn't send infected people into care homes , every indication since February is that the UK would want to try to keep things open, & what a coincidence UK has high number of cases & deaths. I like you do wonder what science Boris is following- still he can tell jokes in Acient Greek , no need for Oxford to teach science in a PPE course.

Love the use of "they" , do you mean the useless UK government by "they" or do you mean the Lizzards?
Report 1st time poster November 18, 2020 12:35 PM GMT
nice to see TOBY YOUNG employed as an education tzar by gove ,trending on twitter has todays denier foooking village idiot, LaughLaughLaughLaughLaughLaugh
Report Fatslogger November 18, 2020 4:20 PM GMT
WD, in addition to some instructive stuff about Bill Gates, this article has some points about the costs of a vaccine versus the benefits!

https://unherd.com/2020/11/should-big-pharma-profit-from-covid/

See what you make of it.
Report dukeofpuke November 18, 2020 4:36 PM GMT
https://unherd.com/2020/10/will-a-vaccine-cure-covid/?=refinnar

Preferred that by Tom Chivers
Report nineteen points November 18, 2020 4:39 PM GMT
just who in the hell does this dr susan higgins think she is?

says she is very keen to give us a "normal" christmas!

well thank you so kindly maam ........and fock right off
Report thegiggilo November 18, 2020 4:55 PM GMT
Tory death squad 529,what could possibly be going wrong..
Report thegiggilo November 18, 2020 4:56 PM GMT
Tory death squad 529,what could possibly be going wrong..
Report Fatslogger November 18, 2020 5:02 PM GMT

Nov 18, 2020 -- 5:36PM, dukeofpuke wrote:


https://unherd.com/2020/10/will-a-vaccine-cure-covid/?=refinnarPreferred that by Tom Chivers


It’s a good article, although some of it is already rather superseded by events, especially the, at the time, perfectly reasonable point that if vaccines only prevent 50% of infections, we’d need to vaccinate even more people to beat the virus. He’s quite measured about supply chain issues, which will clearly not be trivial but then to have got to this point within a few months of the virus first being reported is itself remarkable and I’d expect the fact that there are lots of vaccines in development to help here, as the logistics will be different for different vaccines.

He’s definitely right that one or two vaccines having good trial data and even being rolled out say in December and January /= this is all over. Vaccinating the most at risk and care workers will take a significant edge off the potential harm the virus can do though and along with a bit of immunity from the first and second waves, should not only protect those people and reduce adverse outcomes a lot but also at least take a bit of the edge off transmission.

Report nineteen points November 24, 2020 12:20 PM GMT
fats and mex et al,if yous are still out there

record number of deaths last week sadly.how could this happen in a lockdown?

more lockdowns
more masks
more cases

keep the vitriol,the abuse and the ridicule coming but you all know now i am right.
Report scandanavian_haven November 24, 2020 2:15 PM GMT
^ what's the answer to this ?
Report dukeofpuke November 24, 2020 2:32 PM GMT
Was Covid-19 beginning to peak before the second lockdown?

by Matt Ridley

The lockdown came in on a Thursday. The very next day data from three reliable sources – the Office for National Statistics, the government and the Covid Symptom Study – showed slight falls of the number of positive cases or some levelling off. The fall was steep in some places such as Liverpool. The cynic in me wondered whether the haste with which the government had rushed to bring in the national lockdown, at the urging of its questionably sage advisors, was so that lockdown could be credited with the fall that was coming.


Ah, said the government at the time, but hospital admissions are still increasing and so are deaths. Well, sure. Hospital admissions lag cases by two weeks, and deaths lag admissions by two weeks. We now have two more weeks of data and the evidence looks clear. The faltering of the wave in late October and early November was not just a pause but a peak. Hospital admissions appear to have peaked on 11 November and then fallen, implying a peak of infections late last month, well before lockdown began. Even deaths seem to have now stabilised, unexpectedly, with the seven-day average also steady since 11 November.


What explains the peak, then, if not lockdown? In some places, such as London, the virus may be struggling to find susceptible people. Some are already immune after the first wave, others have a degree of cross immunity from common colds. Above all the superspreaders – those the virus really relies on – have been depleted by previous infection because they were the first to catch it. We know that about 80 per cent of cases are spread by between 10 and 20 per cent of people.


But it may also be because voluntary measures work. People did change their behaviour again last month, as the warnings ratcheted up. It really is not necessary to order people about: much better to ask them. Not only does it work, but it gets buy-in. Ordering stops people thinking and starts making them rebellious.
Report DancingBraveTheBest November 24, 2020 2:55 PM GMT
Not read through all above but just regarding the subject.....To All You Covid Non Believers.   I dont think anyone disputes there is a virus, its just the total total lack of action at the start to protect the vulnerable in society and NOW the unbelievable and totally over the top reaction to protect the not at risk in society. There are strange and unsavoury things going on under the surface i feel.
Report dukeofpuke November 24, 2020 3:11 PM GMT
There is something 'they' are not telling us

USA vaccine
Germany vaccine
UK vaccine

CHINA no vaccine

really ?
Report irishone November 24, 2020 3:52 PM GMT
The Chinese are well in advance of the rest of the world.
There is evidence that purports to support the theory that they had the virus in September 2019
The signs were there much earlier than the WHO thought.
They must have a vaccine , it follows the pattern.
Report scandanavian_haven November 24, 2020 3:54 PM GMT
Can anyone answer why cases are rising past the middle of lockdown
Report Mexico November 24, 2020 3:56 PM GMT
19

You post your garbage more,more,more again yet won't bother to engage.

You mentioned "more cases" in you silly mantra when cases are falling.


Then you talk about "record deaths" not case Study???
As Bob Dylan would ask...
How many times does one need to explain that there is a time lag between being infected & dying from Covid.

Come back in 7 days - I predict number of cases in England to be lower & hopefully we will see fewer deaths per week by mid December.

The 2 week Welsh lockdown resulted in fewer cases & signs are there that the English semi-lockdown is also having an effect on number of cases.
Report Mexico November 24, 2020 3:58 PM GMT
Scan

I didn't see that story- where are cases rising?

I thought there were fewer cases in England than last week. Been getting under 20k for whole of UK this week.
Report Charlie November 24, 2020 4:02 PM GMT

Nov 24, 2020 -- 3:55PM, DancingBraveTheBest wrote:


Not read through all above but just regarding the subject.....To All You Covid Non Believers.

Report Charlie November 24, 2020 4:04 PM GMT
I'll try again.

Agree with the first part about inactivity.

You can't reduce the number of vulnerable people catching it without also reducing the number of non-vulnerable people catching it (ie those unlikely to die).
Report ----you-have-to-laugh--- November 24, 2020 4:11 PM GMT
Today's cases down to 11k

Deaths up though 600+
Report dukeofpuke November 24, 2020 4:25 PM GMT
People die everyday who are these 600 all covid or not as there will be a time when other deaths will be higher than the 5 year average and this will go on for a long time
Report Fatslogger November 24, 2020 4:38 PM GMT

Nov 24, 2020 -- 1:20PM, nineteen points wrote:


fats and mex et al,if yous are still out thererecord number of deaths last week sadly.how could this happen in a lockdown?more lockdownsmore masks more caseskeep the vitriol,the abuse and the ridicule coming but you all know now i am right.


You can’t keep posting the same mantra irrespective of the actual facts and expect much engagement but okay!

1. Cases are reducing, as you’d expect from a lockdown, although they were pretty flat anyway. The second wave hasn’t had the same steep curves as the first but it has still had a lot of infections, just rising in a much flatter way.

2. Deaths relate to infections contracted around a month back, so lag current case numbers significantly. You’d expect deaths now to be from transmission in late October, when cases probably were peaking (there are different ways to interpret the data).

Report thegiggilo November 24, 2020 4:42 PM GMT
The tory death squad 608 who knew...
Report dukeofpuke November 24, 2020 5:29 PM GMT
The BBC on 5live have just dragged up some poor brainwashed tw@t who is talking about a 3rd wave

At thats where the problem lies
Report Johnny The Guesser November 24, 2020 5:34 PM GMT

Nov 24, 2020 -- 5:04PM, Charlie wrote:


I'll try again.Agree with the first part about inactivity.You can't reduce the number of vulnerable people catching it without also reducing the number of non-vulnerable people catching it (ie those unlikely to die).


Of course you can Charlie - The vulnerable should completely isolate themselves ,wherever possible, and stay in.
Simple two questions - If the UK did only that - Would the numbers dying of COVID reduce, go up, or stay the same ?
Would the numbers requiring hospital treatment reduce, go up or stay the same ?

Report Fatslogger November 24, 2020 5:48 PM GMT

Nov 24, 2020 -- 6:34PM, Johnny The Guesser wrote:


Nov 24, 2020 --  5:04PM, Charlie wrote:I'll try again.Agree with the first part about inactivity.You can't reduce the number of vulnerable people catching it without also reducing the number of non-vulnerable people catching it (ie those unlikely to die).Of course you can Charlie - The vulnerable should completely isolate themselves ,wherever possible, and stay in. Simple two questions - If the UK did only that - Would the numbers dying of COVID reduce, go up, or stay the same ?Would the numbers requiring hospital treatment reduce, go up or stay the same ?


Can I take this one too?

Vulnerability is not an absolute thing. Risk goes up exponentially with age, starting very low indeed for children and remaining very low until perhaps you get to ages over 40 and probably fairly low until you get to over 60. Various health conditions increase risk from baseline derived from age, as does being male.  The highly vulnerable have again been told to shield, so the approach you suggest is already in place for them. Assuming you’d also suggest that the moderately vulnerable, say all over 70s and over 60s with co pathologies, especially if they are male, should do the same, there might be some marginal gains there but again, most of them will already be adopting a very careful approach. Those who aren’t are presumably choosing not to be as careful as they might be and this would be their choice.

So actually, I’d contend just following your scheme would result in very similar numbers of infections, hospitalisations and deaths in the vulnerable groups initially and more in less vulnerable (but still not invulnerable) groups. Then you’d get the consequences of higher community infection rates causing more transmission to vulnerable groups and more infections, hospitalisations and deaths in all groups.

Report dukeofpuke November 24, 2020 5:52 PM GMT
In the last PC they announced that care workers visiting people in their homes would take a test weekly

So since March and before have they been killing these poor old folk needlessly
Report JetLoneStar November 24, 2020 5:57 PM GMT
Less deaths in October this year than last, aren't we supposed to be in a pandemic???
Report scandanavian_haven November 24, 2020 6:03 PM GMT
In regards to deaths, today was the highest daily death figure since May
Report Johnny The Guesser November 24, 2020 6:14 PM GMT
Thanks for replying Fats,
What if the rules were everything we've got going on now AND in addition a stricter "no excuses, total self isolation period " for the vulnerable (wherever possible) ?
That can only reduce the risk profile of the nation as a whole therefore reducing death numbers and hospital admissions.
Report Johnny The Guesser November 24, 2020 6:17 PM GMT
One medical question if I may - How many have died of flu/ pneumonia so far this season ? - Any idea of those numbers ? What aren't those issued everyday ?
Report lapsy pa November 24, 2020 6:23 PM GMT
In an office (gov) someone from another gov office came in the week before last and was coughing telling all she had a cold/flu, half the office either positive or isolating now.
I said to leg it out of there if even a small cough to person in question.

So Dukeofpuke,i think you are correct,there are no hard and fast rules,that should never happen and in spite of all the rhetoric,crazy goings on, some people are just thick as well.
Report nineteen points November 24, 2020 7:35 PM GMT
my good friends,mex and fats,yes i still quote my mantra and will until it stops happening.

you ask for facts.sky news this morning said record weekly deaths (over 2k sadly) w/e 13th nov.

i cant get more factual sorry.its not my fault.
Report Mexico November 24, 2020 8:07 PM GMT
19

Your silly mantra has stopped happening.

You were wittering on that lockdown leads to more CASES.
This clearly isn't the case. Tge Semi-lockdown in England has led to FEWER cases not more cases.


Why quote deaths? 
A) Your incorrect manta refers to cases not deaths.
B) As explained many, many, many, many, many times... There is a time lag between somebody getting infected & dying.

If health officials/ scientists predictions are correct we would expect cases to be lower next week than this week & by mid December number of weekly deaths would be lower than this week.

We have been in semi-lockdown for 3 weeks & as predicted there are fewer cases in England.
Report nineteen points November 24, 2020 9:20 PM GMT
you know i am right. read latest figures.up up and away
Report scandanavian_haven November 24, 2020 9:43 PM GMT
Yes I think it's 28 days between infection and death when recording so I just read, so there is a delay, however has testing increased or decreased, less you test less cases
Report Mexico November 24, 2020 9:50 PM GMT
19

The latest figures have number of cases decreasing in UK.


As already stated the number of deaths lags a few weeks behind infections.

The prediction is for cases to continue to fall for next couple of weeks due to this semi-lockdowns & number of deaths will be fewer by mid December.
Report ----you-have-to-laugh--- November 24, 2020 10:00 PM GMT
If deaths are more than 28 days after test, they are removed from system,

Passed onto something else.

Yet lag is about 4 weeks...
Report layingisthewayforward November 24, 2020 10:24 PM GMT
Lol giggolo is off with his tory death squad again.
Report Fatslogger November 24, 2020 11:16 PM GMT

Nov 24, 2020 -- 7:14PM, Johnny The Guesser wrote:


Thanks for replying Fats,What if the rules were everything we've got going on now AND in addition a stricter "no excuses, total self isolation period " for the vulnerable (wherever possible) ?That can only reduce the risk profile of the nation as a whole therefore reducing death numbers and hospital admissions.


Yes, if you put measures in place that enforced high risk people remaining in their homes with no social contact that would help slightly (like I say, people are already mostly pretty careful). Does that seem like a good idea to you?

In answer to the ‘flu question, I’ve not seen recent ONS stats on ‘flu deaths but surveillance, which I’ve linked a few times, has shown very, very few cases so deaths will be right down. Pneumonia isn’t transmissible so shouldn’t be much different to usual. You do have to be a bit cautious about interpreting death certificate stats on pneumonia too, because it’s very often present both in dying people and on certs but is less often the ultimate cause of death than these numbers would suggest.

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