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stewarty b
17 Feb 20 07:30
Joined:
Date Joined: 02 Aug 02
| Topic/replies: 31,836 | Blogger: stewarty b's blog
French foreign minister Jean-Yves Le Drian predicted the two sides would " rip each other apart " as the strove for advantage in the negotiations.


Will this be the same as when the Nasis walked into Paris Jean-Yves?
Pause Switch to Standard View France warns UK of bitter post-Brexit...
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Report unitedbiscuits March 2, 2020 12:42 PM GMT
pa lapsy - Brexit ONLY makes sense in opposition to the EU. Don't believe anything this UK Govt says. You can see a train coming.
Report unitedbiscuits March 2, 2020 12:42 PM GMT
pa lapsy - Brexit ONLY makes sense in opposition to the EU. Don't believe anything this UK Govt says. You can see a train coming.
Report InsiderTrader March 2, 2020 12:53 PM GMT
jollyswagman
02 Mar 20 12:40
Joined: 04 Jul 15
| Topic/replies: 8,102 | Blogger: jollyswagman's blog
laws are made to be broken Shocked


oven ready deal, no deal no problem, australian deal, canada deal

^

Lets break this down....

1. oven ready deal
This was the withdrawl agreement. It was ready and got through parliament as soon as there was time for it after Boris got a majority.

2. no deal no problem
We have left the EU with a deal. So this was never tested.

3. Canada deal
This is our preferred option if the EU wants tariff free access to the UK.

4. Australia (WTO type) deal
Alternative if the EU does not want tariff free access to the UK.
Report moisok March 2, 2020 1:16 PM GMT
the whingeing pro europhiles on here should consider relocation to brussels - they clearly love it more than the uk

anything to denigrate what we are trying to do

why do they hang around like a bad smell
Report jollyswagman March 2, 2020 1:40 PM GMT
ho ho ho.

its all in the book Sad
Report Wallflower March 2, 2020 1:51 PM GMT
Few facts:

(1)  We didn't leave the EU with a deal - we left with an agreement which became an international treaty

(2)  The date of December 31st for trade deal is completely meaningless (its the UK internal date, big swinging.....). EU, China and US take ages to make deals, they are slow and deliberate (e.g. Japan, Canada, South Korea, US-Mexico) - they don't get pressurised, they'll make the deal when they are happy with it, no sooner. Likewise if the EU was foolish enough to say to the UK the trade deal has to be done by September 30th 2020  or  May 31st 2021 what does the UK care - we do the deal when happy? Same principle. One side cant set a date (in reality no side can).

(3)  The more we align the more access we get. Its a simple equation, and a fair one. No amount of bluster from Downing Street is going to change this. So all this whinging about the EU being unfair or 'playing hardball' is pathetic. "Canada" doesn't solve the services issue - "you want access to our services, then we are having your fish - your choice?".  UK decision major part of economy vs tiny part of economy. Up to us, not EU - they are giving us the choice. Our current negotiating position of we control all access to our fishing waters, but we want "unfettered" access to your financial markets is a laugh in Europe. Its so unreasonable it diminishes our position.

(4)  The US trade deal is miniscule compared to EU trade deal, its not a bargaining chip (it case Johnson/Cummings thinks it is - its irrelevant to the EU) - its like saying to Monica Bellucci "if you don't f*ck me now I'm leaving to f*ck Anne Widdicombe". It is not a threat to EU at all.

(5)  At some stage all the bombast and bluster has to be backed up with detailed plans and subsequent action. Where are the custom officials, what about the IT systems and infrastructure - they can't be built unless the detailed information is supplied. Sometimes I really do wonder are they figuring out how to break the news we will be delayed further !! How can all these things be ready by Dec 31st when haven't even a shred of paper to kick-start thingsShocked? I'm genuinely not sure why this isn't being queried in the media. If I was a Brexiteer I'd be wondering what is actually going on to prepare us for leaving?  (we haven't really left, by the way - we just follow rules without a say fro 2020).

(6) Likewise - what about the ports and infrastructure between GB and NI? If we renege on that (legally binding) then there is no deal with EU or US for that matter. But we will then have to man the border in NI - with who?  Police force is now a civilian one over there.

At some stage all the bluster has to stop.
Report jollyswagman March 2, 2020 2:02 PM GMT
wallflower, cummings seems to believe his own press. i have watched his performance in front of a parliamentary committee before the referendum and its painfully obvious he dosent understand how the eu functions. he may just believe the bluster and think threatening to leave without a deal will get him what he wants.

we are now leaving and threatening to leave all manner of international forums just for the sake of it, we look like we going for full on purity/insanity. i am not sure we will not leave without a deal and then blame everything that happens on the eu (even if it is all really just the logical conclusion of choosing this course of action).

its like saying to Monica Bellucci "if you don't f*ck me now I'm leaving to f*ck Anne Widdicombe" - GrinGrin
Report InsiderTrader March 2, 2020 2:35 PM GMT
"you want access to our services, then we are having your fish - your choice?"

Not going to happen. Why should we pay to access their markets? Two can play at that game.

The US trade deal is miniscule compared to EU trade deal

USA is the country we export the most to in the whole world. It is almost 20% of our exports even with a free trade deal (although we have lots of argreements with them).
Report InsiderTrader March 2, 2020 2:36 PM GMT
* even without a free trade deal with the USA.
Report Wallflower March 2, 2020 2:58 PM GMT
InsiderTrader 02 Mar 20 14:35 
"you want access to our services, then we are having your fish - your choice?"

Not going to happen. Why should we pay to access their markets? Two can play at that game.

The US trade deal is miniscule compared to EU trade deal

USA is the country we export the most to in the whole world. It is almost 20% of our exports even with a free trade deal (although we have lots of argreements with them).


---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

We have agreements with them via EU. These will have to be re-negotiated and probably not on same beneficial terms. The US trade deal being discussed is worth (at best) increase of 0.2% of GDP, about 25 times less than what we are expected to lose in EU trade.

"Not going to happen. Why should we pay to access their markets? Two can play at that game". This is unbelievable - each EU member country pays so they can access and support the infrastructure of /investment in the market. EFTA (incl. Norway) also pay into single market in order to access it. So you are saying a non-EU member, non-EFTA member is not going to pay and not follow the rules of the market - and have access???  Can we be somewhat sensible?

If we don't pay / follow rules then we only get the same access as other third countries ( that means no services)........ what on earth is wrong with that?

We are extremely dependent on access to EU financial markets 340 billions worth per annumShocked. 7% of our economy. No fish, no discussion on access. Why we think we can have full control of fish, and access their financial and other markets foe free is f*ckin' laughable.
Report Wallflower March 2, 2020 3:04 PM GMT
The other myth is we are somehow trading as equals, we are not.

We are a tenth of their size, they are a bloc of 27 countries who are sovereign and if one (or even a regional parliament)says "no deal" then  no deal it is. Their market, their rules.  Our market, we can set rules - but its still like a poodle you see barking at an alsation.
Report moisok March 2, 2020 3:43 PM GMT
why do you hate us and side with the eu?
Report jollyswagman March 2, 2020 4:01 PM GMT
wallflower the last government did successfully roll over the eu/usa mra on equal terms, probably our best success so far (a very low bar though).
Report Wallflower March 2, 2020 4:04 PM GMT
I don't at all.

All I've ever asked for is answers to very simple questions. But what I do hate is the stream of lies, misinformation and complete irrationality involved in Brexit.

Its getting worse, like a f*ckin' cult. If you question anything you are are unpatriotic, hate UK, should move to Brussels etc etc etc. Even the harmless Mary Beard has  appointment to British Museum blocked for, wait for it, "pro-European views"PlainLaugh.

Maybe because my job for last two years involves moving a significant piece of our US company's UK based operations to Ireland and Luxembourg and the impact that has had on some very good people makes it more real to me.

Don't have an issue with people wishing to leave the EU but giving economic, immigration, trade etc reasons which makes no sense then more ludicrous claims to defend them - i do have an issue with.  Someone saying I wish to leave the EU because "thats the why" is ok with me - its emotional. But just say thats the reason.

No "hate" involved.
Report InsiderTrader March 2, 2020 4:21 PM GMT
We are extremely dependent on access to EU financial markets 340 billions worth per annumShocked. 7% of our economy. No fish, no discussion on access. Why we think we can have full control of fish, and access their financial and other markets foe free is f*ckin' laughable.

Absurd concept.

We GIVE them fish then they allow us to SELL them something they want?

No way pal.

We allow them to SELL us cars they allow us to SELL them insurance
Report InsiderTrader March 2, 2020 4:23 PM GMT
Wallflower
02 Mar 20 15:04
Joined: 01 Nov 04
| Topic/replies: 6,635 | Blogger: Wallflower's blog
The other myth is we are somehow trading as equals, we are not.

We are a tenth of their size, they are a bloc of 27 countries who are sovereign and if one (or even a regional parliament)says "no deal" then  no deal it is. Their market, their rules.  Our market, we can set rules - but its still like a poodle you see barking at an alsation.

^

Where are you getting these 10th their size figures from? Why make stuff up?
Report dave1357 March 2, 2020 4:27 PM GMT
IT when are you going to address the government's admission that a US trade deal will at most add less than 1/5 of one percent to GDP?  What do you think this means for "global britain"?
Report InsiderTrader March 2, 2020 4:39 PM GMT
What page did you get your 0.2% of GDP from Dave? Not saying you are wrong but I certainly could not find it in the document

https://www.scribd.com/embeds/449745629/content?start_page=1&view_mode=scroll&show_recommendations=true&access_key=key-zl4Wzr8yiLoEszBBEpKI
Report Wallflower March 2, 2020 4:49 PM GMT
UK economy about 2.5 trillion dollars -  EU economy is 22 trillion dollars.  Could be 10 times, 8 times, 11 times what does in matter how you measure it - we are the poodle here.  Surely you can accept that?  And in addition to that when people talk about decrease in growth and trade - in our case it it borne by one country, and by them its 27 countries so not exactly the same burden.  I don't see whats difficult to see about this situation.

"Absurd concept.
We GIVE them fish then they allow us to SELL them something they want?
No way pal.
We allow them to SELL us cars they allow us to SELL them insurance".

>>

The fish mean very little to us - we sell to the EU our biggest market, we have a surplus who are we going to sell the fish to. We cant eat all the fish we have?  (Remember distance is a problem here for exporting). The EU cant generate their own fish - so this is to our advantage. Only problem is political - we've made it so tied in with Brexit. There is nothing else they really want from us that they cant replace between the 27 of them.

The don't WANT our financial services in fact the French are very keen on replacing us. Services are lucrative bit essentially replaceable. But they are vital to our economy, particularly London and South East, and Edinburgh too actually.

The financial services are way more important to us than the fish.....they know it and our trade negotiators know it too.

They EU WILL get the fish in return for financial services equivalence, but only insofar as we follow the rules. As i said our choice. They will walk away and say f*ck you and your fish (and talk nice to the Irish - who have sh1tloads of fish too) rather than compromise their beloved single market.

So we lose 340 billion of financial services and we have no-one to sell our fish to. They lose our market for cars and wine.  Who do you think hurts more? Nobody outside of the EU is interested in our fish / financial services. The EU can expand trade deals for their manufactured products. Our problem is we manufacture f*ck all for an economy our size.

But we hold all the cards  (well, we just believeCool).
Report InsiderTrader March 2, 2020 4:52 PM GMT
Wallflower
02 Mar 20 16:49
Joined: 01 Nov 04
| Topic/replies: 6,636 | Blogger: Wallflower's blog
UK economy about 2.5 trillion dollars -  EU economy is 22 trillion dollars.

^

Sorry where do you get the 'EU economy is 22 trillion dollars.'?

Is that the EU27?
Report InsiderTrader March 2, 2020 4:54 PM GMT
The don't WANT our financial services in fact the French are very keen on replacing us. Services are lucrative bit essentially replaceable. But they are vital to our economy, particularly London and South East, and Edinburgh too actually.

If people and companies in the EU do not want our services then we need to make them better so that they do want to buy them. What is that the EU people and companies dislike about UK financial services.

And if they really hate them so much why are they buying them currently?
Report Wallflower March 2, 2020 5:01 PM GMT
The EU are very transparent - did they mention anything in their negotiating document(s) -  ceramics, shortbread, whisky, etc no. They only mentioned fish - the one thing they need that is difficult for them to source fully themselves. No fish, no deal.

We can extract a high price for it - but there is ceiling and "free" access to single market is never happening. We are still a third country and no way will any benefits be available which is better than being a member. They are clearly not stupid. Fish or no fish.

Johnsone/Cummimgs/Gove have put themselves in a corner here.  Are they going sacrifice the UK financial sector for fishing (which is scandalously owned by a few wealthy families)?  Or is their own political standing more important than a 340 billion industry.

Interesting to watch.
Report pa lapsy March 2, 2020 5:10 PM GMT
*As a pure aside you can get a bag containing 7/8 smallish plaice for the princely sum of 5 euro in the fatrmers market Mahon, Cork, off the fella who catches them himself, one of the few Irish "bargains", the fish market in town would have a higher markup i'd imagine.

*A non anti UK plc post.
Report moisok March 2, 2020 5:13 PM GMT
I can't be a non anti uk plc post  as cork isn't in the uk    -   so you don't actually live in the uk?  Cork being outside it - or was the last time I looked
Report Wallflower March 2, 2020 5:17 PM GMT
Oh ffs,    just know it is 22 trillion dollars from looking up recently.  Quick google says it was 18.8 trillion dollars in 2018, so close enough for 2020 I'd say. I didn't look up UK either I just know its around 2.5 trillion dollars (pretty sure it has ballooned to 10 trillion since BrexitCool). Could even be less, its around two and half anyway.

So what is the point !!!!  If it makes you feel any better, we'll just say the "difference in size is significant" !!!!  Can you accept that ????

They like our services as they currently are - why?  Because we have access to many financial corporations, and the EU Banking Authority was located in London, and guess what - we followed the rules of the EU single market.  The irony of all of this, is that the UK WERE the lead in designing the rules because of London / EU Banking Authority being based there. London became the world's no.1 financial centre BECAUSE of the EU. In addition, the EU (despite French objections) kept the multi-billion euro clearing industry in London, despite us not being in Euro.

Now - EU Banking Authority has moved to Paris. The Euro clearing will be moved. Financial Company HQs will be moved from London. This will have an impact (and already has and is continuing - I see it daily).

If we dont follow the EU single market rules then it doesn't matter how good our services are the restrictions and limitations are just not worth the hassle.
Report moisok March 2, 2020 5:19 PM GMT
even more anti british sentiment - are you not ashamed of yourself?
Report Wallflower March 2, 2020 5:36 PM GMT
....since when is calling out the obvious anti-British??


Ok.

"Because we are British I really really believe the EU will meet our demands to have total 'unfettered' access to their single market, especially financial services. In addition the UK will set all the rules and standards for trade which the EU will then dynamically follow. We will control all fish stocks, access to which the Eu will pay on a quota basis. All UK citizens can travel, live and work anywhere within the EU, EU citizens will have same access to UK, but only on a points based system - as a gesture of our goodwill. In return for this gesture I expect the EU authorities on Banking and Medicines to be relocated back to London where they belong, there is no logical basis that EU authorities should be located within the EU"

There, is that better?
Report edy March 2, 2020 5:40 PM GMT
That's the spirit I want to see! No more nay-saying, no more questions.

BELIEVE is the go-to word from now on.
Report dave1357 March 2, 2020 5:40 PM GMT
@insidertrader

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/869592/UK_US_FTA_negotiations.pdf

page 32 .16% might even be less
Report InsiderTrader March 2, 2020 5:53 PM GMT
Thanks Dave.

So these technocrats are claiming max of 0.16% of GDP with a FTA for 20% of our exports.

Are these the same technocrats that are claiming not haves a FTA for 43% of our exports with the EU will cost 7% of GDP?

I notice you fail to mention the benefits to consumers of having cheaper goods. Strange that.
Report jollyswagman March 2, 2020 6:00 PM GMT
trader have you been reading lilico by chance? Laugh

you are comparing chalk with cheese, we start off fully integrated with the eu, the day we leave we immediately erect significant non tariff barriers that will likely have a much bigger impact than small tariff reductions. the trouble with economists like lilico is non tariff barriers dont register.
Report edy March 2, 2020 6:28 PM GMT

Mar 2, 2020 -- 11:53AM, InsiderTrader wrote:


Thanks Dave.So these technocrats are claiming max of 0.16% of GDP with a FTA for 20% of our exports.Are these the same technocrats that are claiming not haves a FTA for 43% of our exports with the EU will cost 7% of GDP?I notice you fail to mention the benefits to consumers of having cheaper goods. Strange that.


Milchmädchenrechnung FTW!

Report jollyswagman March 2, 2020 6:32 PM GMT
edy i barely speak english, what does that mean please? tia
Report dave1357 March 2, 2020 7:28 PM GMT
literally it means milkmaid account so I assume it is rather derogatory.
Report InsiderTrader March 2, 2020 7:32 PM GMT
jollyswagman
02 Mar 20 18:00
Joined: 04 Jul 15
| Topic/replies: 8,115 | Blogger: jollyswagman's blog
trader have you been reading lilico by chance?

^

No.

I am just interested with the assertion that trading with EU (42% currently with this 'amazing' deal) will cost 7% of GDP and yet with the USA where we have no FTD we already have 20% and set to gain 0.17%.

The numbers do not stack up. How much would the 42% EU trade drop if we have a Canada style trade deal with the EU compared to an Australia type 'deal'?

The answer must be it is really would make no odds if the 0.17% USA figure is anything to go by. The 0.17% suggests having a FTD is barely worth it.
Report dave1357 March 2, 2020 7:35 PM GMT

Mar 2, 2020 -- 11:53AM, InsiderTrader wrote:


Thanks Dave.So these technocrats are claiming max of 0.16% of GDP with a FTA for 20% of our exports.Are these the same technocrats that are claiming not haves a FTA for 43% of our exports with the EU will cost 7% of GDP?I notice you fail to mention the benefits to consumers of having cheaper goods. Strange that.


it's 100+ pages feel free to read them all and find where they have gone wrong.  Although before you do so you might consider what others have been saying for months - there simply aren't many areas where the UK is going to improve its trading activity over what it has now.  And in trade terms cheap imports are a drag on gdp growth unless balanced by value added exports.  Which really shouldn't be a surprise.

Report moisok March 2, 2020 7:53 PM GMT
just keep up the pro eu propaganda you keep filling your cups with

an absolute disgrace

you lost but can't stop whingeing
Report jollyswagman March 2, 2020 7:54 PM GMT
let's be clear about the 7% figure, it isnt a drop of 7% in gdp its that the gdp will be 7% lower than it would have been if we stayed in the sm. we still grow but not by as much as we would have.

one trade expert says that 0.16% is actually quite good a benefit as trade deals go, typical FTAs actually dont lead to big increases in gdp. another expert thinks 0.16 is being generous, 0.1% is more likely.

as you have been told many, many times we will automatically erect significant barriers to trade when we leave the sm and services which is where we do well arent included as much as we need them to be in most trade deals.
Report moisok March 2, 2020 7:55 PM GMT
venture an alternative opinion and you will be accused of being a drunk  ho ho
Report InsiderTrader March 2, 2020 8:22 PM GMT
dave1357
02 Mar 20 19:35
Joined: 05 Sep 10
| Topic/replies: 11,990 | Blogger: dave1357's blog

    Mar 2, 2020 -- 5:53PM, InsiderTrader wrote:


    Thanks Dave.So these technocrats are claiming max of 0.16% of GDP with a FTA for 20% of our exports.Are these the same technocrats that are claiming not haves a FTA for 43% of our exports with the EU will cost 7% of GDP?I notice you fail to mention the benefits to consumers of having cheaper goods. Strange that.


it's 100+ pages feel free to read them all and find where they have gone wrong.  Although before you do so you might consider what others have been saying for months - there simply aren't many areas where the UK is going to improve its trading activity over what it has now.  And in trade terms cheap imports are a drag on gdp growth unless balanced by value added exports.  Which really shouldn't be a surprise.


^

Dave (and Jolly),

I am still at a loss as to why you think trading with the EU under a deal is such a boost to our economy whereas a deal with the USA (and others) is basically not going to gain us anything.

What is so special about a deal with countries like Romania, Poland and Luxemburg so much better than deals with the USA, Australia and New Zealand?
Report jollyswagman March 2, 2020 8:30 PM GMT
it isnt a boost, it's about maintaining what we have now. you are being wilfully ignorant as ever.
Report moisok March 2, 2020 8:33 PM GMT
it is ok for you lot but the next time I go boat fishing out of brighton  I might be attacked by the frogs

and the pro eu whiners on here

you can get nice dabs at this time of year although getting late now
Report edy March 2, 2020 8:45 PM GMT

Mar 2, 2020 -- 12:32PM, jollyswagman wrote:


edy i barely speak english, what does that mean please? tia


FTW = For the win

Milchmädchenrechnung is an expression to describe a naive view, or in particular a naive calculation, based on wrong or far too simplistic assumptions.

Can I use it in a sentence for an example? Sure!

Person 1: If the UK doesn't pay the withdrawal bill, it gets to save GBP 39 billion it could spend entirely on its priorities. It's a super fantastic idea and I am not saying that just because Jacob Rees-Mogg said it is.

Person 2: Mate, that's such a Milchmädchenrechnung. You are completely ignoring the implications that witholding the money would have, such as economic shocks due to no transition period and far harder negotiations for trade deals.

Report edy March 2, 2020 8:57 PM GMT
btw jolly, since you mentioned non-tariff barriers earlier: For TTIP there were obviously also calculations done on the impact. Interestingly, the rather modest growth that TTIP was meant to deliver (about 0.5% for the EU over ~10 years...total, not each year) according to the CEPR and IFO was to come almost entirely from erasing those non-tarriff barriers. Tarriffs don't seem to be no problem for trade between the US and EU.
Report jollyswagman March 2, 2020 9:41 PM GMT
thanks

average tariff levels are pretty low (agriculture a big exception). i have mentioned non tariff barriers several times but true believers wont believe their importance.

and supposedly free market loving usa is rated worse in a recent trade barriers index than every single eu country 

https://www.propertyrightsalliance.org/news/2019-international-trade-barrier...
Report impossible123 March 2, 2020 10:05 PM GMT
The French opposed our application to join the EU (recently they also opposed the applications of 3 prospective EU members), but the abundance of fish in our water appeased them - they are allowed to a bigger quota than us despite the fish are in our water.

Now, that we've decided to leave and the French are making things unnecessarily difficult and unpleasant despite UK Plc had been a major contributor towards EU funds since joining.
Report moisok March 2, 2020 10:11 PM GMT
vichy france got used to working with the germans whilst helping to ship the poor jews to camps

of course they have learnt to work together and now doing the same thing being a poodle to the germans
Report themover March 3, 2020 6:45 PM GMT
France makes up a small percentage of the EU trade surplus so they can afford to play harder than others. In the end I expect Germany will tell them to toe the line (but not a fishing one!).
Report Foinavon March 3, 2020 7:01 PM GMT
Edy, does your little milkmaid have any tips for the footy tonight?
Report stewarty b March 3, 2020 7:36 PM GMT
Nobody mention fishing rights? As it stands a French trawler is allowed to catch double the amount than the UK trawlers......in UK waters.


That has to change.
Report themover March 4, 2020 11:11 AM GMT
Macron has suggested that France would request compensation if they are not allowed to fish in UK waters. He said: “I want to tell our fishermen that I will fight for them. If we do not get the same access as today, we will seek compensation.

“I will not let our fishermen pay for a British vote they could do nothing about.”

You couldn't make it up! It's the equivalent of the UK sending over a load of lorries to France, loading the grapes up and taking them home to turn into wine free of charge!
Report PorcupineorPineapple March 4, 2020 12:35 PM GMT
It's not enough to want our politicians to try and get the best deal for us, we now want the other side to stop trying to get the best for their people.


Brexit: making people thick since 2016.
Report impossible123 March 4, 2020 5:07 PM GMT
^^
Utter tosh. The fish are in our waters, and France had double of our quota because France was a founder member of the EU, and UK Plc was not. As such, would you like to reconsider your ill-thought out argument ie "want the other side to stop trying to get the best for their people?

The fish are in our waters (then) and still are (not France). So legally the fish belong to UK Plc (not France Plc); the French sequestrated our fish because of their mentality and application of "1st mover advantage". President Macron can try to appease his fishermen (French politics), but his argument (legally) has no leg to stand on in International Court.

I've always known President Macron is not as smart as he'd like others to think or believe.

Our waters, our fish, simple!
Report PorcupineorPineapple March 4, 2020 5:19 PM GMT
Again, for the hard of understanding at the back...


It's a negotiation. He may not get everything he wants, just as it's equally unrealistic for the UK to expect a zero-tariff, zero friction deal while maintaining our ability to diverge on standards.

Doesn't stop you asking for it. Just as if you're buying a house you know the asking price, you know a price you're prepared to pay but you go in a bit lower saying you've got options if they don't accept this one.


People getting awfully offended by the other side of the table negotiating in the manner that humans have for hundreds of generations really need to settle down and grow a backbone.
Report Wallflower March 4, 2020 5:30 PM GMT
UK fish  -  but we want access to EU financial services.........what to do I wonder!
Report jollyswagman March 4, 2020 5:34 PM GMT
Our waters, our fish, simple!

as per usual you are talking utter tosh and showing zero knowledge of the subject matter. some of the fish are migratory, they may be in uk waters today but in other countries' waters tomorrow so they are not 'our fish'. international agreements exist to ensure stocks survive, we are bound by the united nations convention on the law of the sea (unclos) particularly the straddling stock agreement. we are simply not free to do as we please.

besides which we dont eat the fish caught in our waters, johnny foreigner does and we prefer the fish johnny foreigner catches. it's almost as if there need to be negotiations and an agreement that both sides are happy with.
Report impossible123 March 4, 2020 6:02 PM GMT
^^
With respect I think you are talking utter tosh. Every country has an area of water closest to them that is theirs alone (legally) and accepted in International Law. Come to think of it maybe you could ask President Macron when he'd seek compensation for his fishermen deprived of the UK waters to fish eg if no fish caught by French fishermen on monday outside UK waters, maybe come back the next day, and the next, if necessary the next week or month if your "migratory" theory holds water. Why did President Macron make a mountain out of a molehill if something was so inconsequential? 

I eat fish of all kinds - just not getting enough of it. I'd like it cheaper too. Nevertheless, whether other British subject eat fish is irrelevant...there are markets for our fish eg Far East. It's our fish.

Some of you are not so "blinkered" because of your anti-Brexit and/or anti-Bojo stance.
Report PorcupineorPineapple March 4, 2020 6:06 PM GMT
It's astounding some people manage to the their shoelaces frankly.


Or maybe I'm just anti-shoelaceLaugh
Report jollyswagman March 4, 2020 6:25 PM GMT
it isnt a theory its a fact, try using your computer, i have mentioned the relevant areas.

the fish dont recognise our exclusive economic zone, sometimes they be british fish and sometimes they be foreign, it all depends where they are swimming, they straddle, they migrate. it is complicated stuff, escaping the cfp will not be easy. negotiations and an agreement that both sides are happy with are vital. fishing is one area we have a bit of leverage which is why the eu wont deal with it alone.


here is my 'theory'  as you put it on straddling stocks

https://www.un.org/depts/los/convention_agreements/convention_20years/1995FishStockAgreement_ATahindro.pdf

and here is my 'theory' on the united nations convention on the law of the sea

https://www.un.org/depts/los/convention_agreements/texts/unclos/unclos_e.pdf
Report impossible123 March 4, 2020 6:26 PM GMT
'Porkie', I respect UK and UK Plc and the present government because it was elected overwhelming by the people despite my political persuasion is a non-Tory. But, I do respect the vote of the people and democracy.
Report PorcupineorPineapple March 4, 2020 6:39 PM GMT
I respect your respect.

I also respect your desperate attempt to avoiding answering a very straight forward question.

So much respect.
Report impossible123 March 4, 2020 6:58 PM GMT
'Porkie', it's extremely difficult to communicate or debate with someone who's anti-Brexit or anti-Bojo or anti-UK because of Brexit like you are thus best to agree to disagree, and even place you on 'ignore' because further debate will get no where given the gulf; repeatedly moving goalposts to suit is not something I respect either. You can gloat should you feel it necessary...in the future.

'jolly', just my flippant reply to your flippant dismissive of UK waters. If I was paid like in my profession I'd continue with this discussion. But, as some posters here are nothing but anti-Brexit or anti-Bojo or anti-UK because of Brexit or all 3 we'll never agree thus best to disagree.

I'll leave Brexit and the running UK Plc to the elected people or people employed by the government elected by the people.
Report jollyswagman March 4, 2020 7:03 PM GMT
i am stating facts, that you cant cope with them is unsurprising. one final time, it is complicated and escaping the cfp isnt easy.
Report moisok March 4, 2020 7:35 PM GMT
this lot on here would sell us to the franco german reich - they have other interests other than the welfare of the uk

hence the relenting stream of anti uk bile
Report jollyswagman March 4, 2020 7:41 PM GMT
the reich gets another mention, that didnt take long.
Report moisok March 4, 2020 7:49 PM GMT
yes it still wants to gather more and more and proceed eastwards

has this ever happened before with a franco german coalition
Report edy March 4, 2020 7:53 PM GMT
moisok, as a German who is merely parodying Brextremists, loves himself the Reich.
Report moisok March 4, 2020 7:54 PM GMT
and who would trust the vichy french in anything these days
Report PorcupineorPineapple March 4, 2020 8:49 PM GMT
Imp - there is no agree to disagree. I merely asked you what you think UK Plc means and you've refused to answer.

I've never heard the term before so I can hardly say you're wrong can I.

If you still feel you'd rather run away than answer then by all means block me. I'm sure no one on here will feel any less of you.
Report moisok March 4, 2020 9:11 PM GMT
you lot want to read history and see how the french colluded with the nazis and shipped off thousands to the camps

how industries that supported the nazis are still there today

just for starters

no wonder they work so well together now as they did after 1940
Report PorcupineorPineapple March 4, 2020 10:12 PM GMT
And also catch up on how the Daily Mail and other prominent members of the establishment (including our own sieg heiling queen) were also very complimentary about Herr Hitler.


Still no one reads that rag any more and the royal family couldn't survive the shame of their treasonous acts.
Report moisok March 4, 2020 10:15 PM GMT
yer problem is the place is stuffed with foreigners or people who have foreign interests and have little interest in the welfare of the uk

one only has to look at the history of vichy france and germany after 1940 

also the companies that were around are still here today

what do you make of that
Report PorcupineorPineapple March 4, 2020 10:21 PM GMT
Well I'd say what did foreigners have to do with a war you only know from watching action films In the 60's foe one.

If you want there are clear historical parallels between the feminization of the Jews and the current attitude to and treatment of muslims.

Also, maybe parallels in a country breaking away from unity under promises of ds-1establishing pride, its place in the world and the supposed riches it enjoyed many years ago and unscrupulous politicians galvanizing a public to follow that dream and blame all others who they pronounce are in the way of achieving it.
Report impossible123 March 4, 2020 10:32 PM GMT
"The fish in UK waters do not belong to the UK"

How absurd is that? Then the poster tried to substantiate his claim by introducing "migration" of fish into his assertion. Nonetheless, President Macron stated he'd be asking compensation for his french fishermen when they could no longer fish in UK waters post Brexit.

How can one reconcile the above?

Another on 'ignore' as poster is without doubt either deeply hateful of Bojo/Brexit/Tory/UK/UK Plc. As such I do not have an issue - the issue is his specific.
Report moisok March 4, 2020 10:34 PM GMT
exactly what vichy france and germany have done

carve up europe

it is what past leaders of those countries have wanted and now realised they are better together to advance eastwards
Report edy March 4, 2020 11:21 PM GMT

Mar 4, 2020 -- 4:32PM, impossible123 wrote:


"The fish in UK waters do not belong to the UK" How absurd is that? Then the poster tried to substantiate his claim by introducing "migration" of fish into his assertion. Nonetheless, President Macron stated he'd be asking compensation for his french fishermen when they could no longer fish in UK waters post Brexit. How can one reconcile the above? Another on 'ignore' as poster is without doubt either deeply hateful of Bojo/Brexit/Tory/UK/UK Plc. As such I do not have an issue - the issue is his specific.


LaughLaughLaughCrazy

...Cry

Report edy March 4, 2020 11:23 PM GMT
Someone is terribly petite about someone possibly being more knowledgeable on issues than himself, or someone who disagrees.
Report jollyswagman March 5, 2020 9:18 AM GMT
the fact that he is after compensation suggests he thinks they have grounds, it really rather supports my point of view. if we go it alone we may end up at the international courts.

let's say we do go it alone, your cunning plan has a few other issues to address. is the uk fleet capable of landing these fish? do we have the necessary numbers of boats, the right equipment and the people to work on them? once caught the fish need to be landed, do we have the appropriate fish processing facilities? and then who are we going to sell them to? with no agreement they wont be sold in the eu.

as i said again and again, fishing is a particularly complicated area that needs a solution both sides are happy with. minister george eustace is now saying a deal could last more than a year and he wants to restrict eu access to 12 miles not 200 miles. with some give and take from both sides and we should get a deal.
Report stewarty b March 5, 2020 1:08 PM GMT
The bottom line is France should not be able to catch twice the fish than we can in UK waters. It should be the other way around and even then unacceptable.
Report 1st time poster March 5, 2020 2:13 PM GMT
theres no boats, no crew, no markets, and no inclination for uk fishermen to want to catch twice as much fish,theyve beern hijacked by the right wing tory brexiteer loons and now like the farmers the pennies beginning to drop and their starting to mobilise to protect their markets, from a tory party who are quite happy to import all our food
Report mrtopnotch March 5, 2020 2:27 PM GMT
The UK doesn't have the large fishing fleets needed to service UK waters - who is going to fish them ?
The fish the UK fleet does catch is exported mainly to the EU.
The fish the UK public do eat (very little) is imported from the EU

This part of the negotiation will go on for over a year imo

Trade deals take about 5-7 years
Report lfc1971 March 5, 2020 2:30 PM GMT
U.K. plc is every company and every person that lives and works in the U.K.
if you come to work and live in the UK be grateful and respect the UK and the way we want to live , adapt to us . If you can’t do that or won’t do that don’t come
You’re not wanted or welcome .
Report jollyswagman March 5, 2020 2:31 PM GMT
good afternoon lfc, you been on a fishing trip? Grin
Report lfc1971 March 5, 2020 2:33 PM GMT
If there is a demand for fishing in British waters . And their obviously is as the EU is making such a fuss
Then it is imperative that we take back full control of U.K. fishing waters
We go from there .
Report lfc1971 March 5, 2020 2:33 PM GMT
I’ve been working jollyswagman
Report lfc1971 March 5, 2020 2:39 PM GMT
I was looking for a job , and then I found a job ...
A nice little quiet cubbyhole of a place , it suits me Happy
Report jollyswagman March 5, 2020 2:45 PM GMT
Happy
Report edy March 5, 2020 2:47 PM GMT
The UK doesn't have the large fishing fleets needed to service UK waters - who is going to fish them ?

I don't see this as a problem. As is, the vast majority of the UK's quota (96 to 98 per cent) is given to foreign trawlers (domestic decision, not EU) and Britain's richest families. If the UK has access to a bigger quota post-Brexit, the government will naturally just give it to foreign businesses and their super rich friends (who will buy new ships if needed). Maybe some crumbs will end up in the hands of local fisher men too. Happy
Report edy March 5, 2020 2:48 PM GMT
fisherpeople, sorry.
Report impossible123 March 5, 2020 2:53 PM GMT
"The UK doesn't have the large fishing fleets needed to service UK waters - who's going to fish them?"

Who was responsible for that? The EU founding countries eg France, Germany, etc exercising their discriminatory "1st mover advantage" over the UK with their greedy and unreasonable fishing quota demands thus forcing the then UK fishing fleet to downside to near extinction.

With the UK waters back under our control post Brexit I'm without doubt British fishing entrepreneurs will seize the opportunity to redress the imbalance and make UK a force to be reckoned with in fishing again. And, there will always be markets for our catch in the rest of the world eg Far East given transportation is a non-issue these days.
Report edy March 5, 2020 2:56 PM GMT
...or the domestic government decision of giving well over 90 per cent of the current quota to big, about half-foreign, trawlers.
Report edy March 5, 2020 2:57 PM GMT
Fun little side note I always love to add here: Greenpeace actually took the UK government to court because it refused to redistribute more of the quota to local fishermen (as advised by EU guidelines because they tend to be more environmentally friendly)
Report edy March 5, 2020 2:58 PM GMT
fisherpeople, sorry.
Report jollyswagman March 5, 2020 3:04 PM GMT
edy your transphobic use of gender pronouns is extremely distressing, i may need to head to my safe space Plain
Report dave1357 March 5, 2020 3:05 PM GMT
edy - Lehrerin Schauspielerin etc? no need for you to change the way you were brought up just to fit in with this radical forum.
Report edy March 5, 2020 3:17 PM GMT
German often has both male and female forms for jobs, more so than English. Happy Der Lehrer - Die Lehrerin, Der Schauspieler -  Die Schauspielerin (I guess in this job it's the same in English with actor - actress), Bundeskanzlerin Merkel - Bundeskanzler Schröder.

I'm not quite sure what you are getting at with that one tbf, dave. Just channeling my inner Justin Trudeau a bit.
Report 1st time poster March 5, 2020 3:47 PM GMT
THE SAME bif families who like the EU run the UK INDUSTRIAL size operations for brown crab,etc have alreadfy said they,ll relocate to the French side of channel if Brexit puts costs on their boats,employing crew and employing people in the fish process side of the shell fish game
as the danes have said if hey cant get the same access uk public should get themselves eady to buy and eat rolled herring LaughLaugh, think brexiteers should be force fed it 1st, Laugh
Report stewarty b March 5, 2020 5:47 PM GMT
The UK doesn't have enough boats because the EU got rid of them several years ago. Visit Cornwall and you'll be told in no uncertain manner the actual facts.
Report 1st time poster March 5, 2020 5:56 PM GMT
no ones disagreeing but as it takes 12 months plusand more to build one if you can find someone to build one, how many people do you think are going to splash out a couple of 100 grand on a trawler if he has no/ltd markets to sell  in to,all on the word of doris, the few boats that arefishingwaters are alreadfy been manned by eu migrants because no uk workers arnt interested
Report edy March 5, 2020 6:18 PM GMT
1st time poster • March 5, 2020 5:56 PM GMT
no ones disagreeing


I am.

https://unearthed.greenpeace.org/2018/10/11/fishing-quota-uk-defra-michael-gove/

.
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