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07 Feb 20 01:26
Date Joined: 08 Mar 01
| Topic/replies: 8,517 | Blogger: Kelly's blog
Currently in the Clyde , water hosted .

So where in England or Wales would you shift it too ?  ( Northern Ireland would not be an option for obvious reasons ) .

How many anchorages would be "safe" , and how welcome would the move prove ?

In the event of independence continuance would be a big chip in any future negotiations .  Most Scots might be quite glad to export their nuclear capability as well as their electricity .
Pause Switch to Standard View If Scotland got independence ,...
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Report Kelly February 14, 2020 4:10 PM GMT
The clue lfc , is in your own post "you are NOW citizens of a country" .

Pity you don't appreciate your own posts logic wise .

Up to 1921 Ireland was not an independent country .  It was run from England .
Report lfc1971 February 14, 2020 8:43 PM GMT
Kelly , To their eternal shame the Republic of Ireland never took part in WW2 in the most important battle in mankind’s history
Britain did , and stood alone for a year against the evil that was Nazi Gernany and faced possible destruction .
Never forget that . So no, I’m not particularly impressed with the ROIs record post independence .
Report lfc1971 February 14, 2020 8:48 PM GMT
Ps , either Ireland was a country before it was part of Great Britain and Ireland or it wasn’t
Which is it ?
Report moisok February 14, 2020 9:02 PM GMT
he is just another hater - continual whining - what a life - must be a delight to live near
Report lfc1971 February 14, 2020 9:11 PM GMT
In England we like war, and we like peace

That's how it should be.
Report lfc1971 February 14, 2020 9:27 PM GMT
Maybe there was never a country that was called Ireland, I don't know.
Report Foinavon February 14, 2020 10:21 PM GMT
Tacitus called it Hibernia, the land of winter. Probably not a country but a patchwork of tribes as in Britain.
Report Kelly February 14, 2020 11:53 PM GMT
lfc , notice you ignored the "history lesson" which you were "trying" to teach me . Has Ireland , post 1921 ever indulged in activity geared to aggression in another country ?

Trying to deflect by reference to WW2 I knew you would bring up , which is why I referenced individual Irishmen ( and women) who served under "British" flag in WW2 .

I dare not  post that England likes war , glad to see it coming from you . If I posted that , all hell would break loose .

I would though dare to say that England is not averse to engaging in war , seems to me that through history they get a bit bored when there is no aggression in the offing .  We Irish just like a good party .
Report lfc1971 February 15, 2020 12:21 AM GMT
Kelly it was you that mentioned WW2 , not me   I was merely pointing out the fact that yes some Irishmen did join the British forces ... but this was because it was Britain that was involved in that colossal struggle against the evil Nazi regime
It was Britain , not Ireland . The ROI sat in their arse and refused to help

Parties ? Well when a country is involved in fighting for western civilisation and another prefairs to party I don’t think that’s anything to be proud off
Just saying .
Report Kelly February 15, 2020 12:28 AM GMT
lfc , re 20.43 post , Britain did not stand alone . Guess you forgot about the Poles , The Aussies , the New Zealanders , the Indians, the Malays etc etc who all were involved .  Not to mention the Russians . And don't forget the volunteers from the Republic of Ireland .

The Americans did not enter the war until after Pearl Harbour , they declared war then on Japan , and 3 days later on Germany .  The Americans won the war in my book , and suffered bigger casualties than Britain .

War casualties are interesting . Russia 20 million , Germany 6 million , Great Britain half a million ( and that includes Republic of Ireland casualties) .Aussies lost 90,000 as far as I remember from inspecting war memorials in Australia .  Sobering figures , especially comparatively for us in Ireland where more than a million starved to death under British rule in the circa 1847 potato famine , and a million had to emigrate on top of that .

History has to be interpreted on the basis of facts , not on propaganda or what is presented to people by way of films and media controlled by vested interests and Governments.

If you dispute any of my figures , feel free to comment . Alternatively stop trying to muddy waters , let readers make up their minds as to truth.
Report lfc1971 February 15, 2020 12:34 AM GMT
Kelly between the fall of France in  June 1940 and Germany’s invasion of soviet Russia in June 1941.the British Empire and the commonwealth
Stood alone !

The Republic of Ireland sat on its arse and refused to help
Report lfc1971 February 15, 2020 12:36 AM GMT
Now , that is its record in the Second World War . Ok you say Ireland has never invaded anyone since independence
Who the **** do you think Ireland could invade ?
Report lfc1971 February 15, 2020 12:46 AM GMT
You see it’s very easy for a country to sit on the sidelines and critizise
That’s something the Irish seen to be very good at , but you see it was Britain that was doing the fighting and it’s a bit much to hear a country that refused to do so to start chirping about never going to war
It’s amazing how they gave the gaul to do that
Report Kelly February 15, 2020 1:07 AM GMT
lfc , never answer any facts , just go on an attack on another topic . Are my facts correct ? If so it might give you a bit of credibility if you acknowledged that . Britain is different from Britain and Commonwealth . Aussies , Kiwis , Indians , Malays and ROI volunteers are certainly not British . 

When you answer appropriately I will refer you to previous posts I have made re WW2 involvement .
Report lfc1971 February 15, 2020 1:08 AM GMT
By the summer of 1940 the Fuher stood at the pinnacle of world power , feared by most , admired by many , worshipped by his own people
Upon the collapse of France the new British pm Winston Churchill told his people

“ Hitler knows that he will have to break us in this island or lose the war . If we can stand up to him all Europe may be free , and the life of the world may move forward into broad sunlit uplands .
But if we lose then the whole world will sink into the abyss of a new dark age
Let us brace ourselves to our duties and so bear ourselves , that if the British Empire and it’s Commonwealth last a thousand years, men will still say : “ This was their finest hour “
Report Kelly February 15, 2020 1:15 AM GMT
Answer my question lfc, forget about Winston until later , he can be the subject of debate then .  Are my facts correct in the cold light of day ?
Report lfc1971 February 15, 2020 1:18 AM GMT
Kelly me explain something to you . It was Britain that all those commonwealth soldiers , and indeed polish were fighting for
You see without Britain they would not have been able to fight . It wasn’t called the British Empire for nothing .
Report Kelly February 15, 2020 1:20 AM GMT
Answer the question lfc . Are my facts correct ?
Report lfc1971 February 15, 2020 1:21 AM GMT
Kelly you say Gernany suffered so many casualties , Russia so many
So what , the idea is to win the war not lose it and with massive casualties
The Russians killed hundreds of thousands of their own men
And of course it was Germany and Russia who started the war
So I’m not sure what point you are making
Report Kelly February 15, 2020 1:26 AM GMT
Still not answering the question lfc.  Are my facts correct ?  When you answer I will take you slowly though the points I have tried to make , but it may take some time given your penchant for going off topic .
Report lfc1971 February 15, 2020 1:27 AM GMT
Not for Ireland , for Britain .
Understand ?
Report lfc1971 February 15, 2020 1:28 AM GMT
Yes I’ve just said there were 6 million Germans killed ( I think )

What point are you making , start there ....
Report Kelly February 15, 2020 1:30 AM GMT
Still no answer lfc .  Are my facts correct or not ?
Report lfc1971 February 15, 2020 1:32 AM GMT
I don’t know , Stalin said there were 7 million Russians killed
Now these 6 million Germans let’s say that is true
I’ll ask again , what’s your point ?
Report Kelly February 15, 2020 1:35 AM GMT
You either accept my facts or dispute them lfc . No point in any debate if people are inventing facts . Are my figures and timescales correct in the cold light of history ?
Report lfc1971 February 15, 2020 1:38 AM GMT
Still no answer Kelly

They are unlikely to be correct
But let’s say they are ,
You say 6 million Germans died , what’s your point ?
Report Kelly February 15, 2020 1:42 AM GMT
I don't need to answer anything lfc.  I posted facts , how people interpret them is up to them .

Which of my facts do you dispute ?
Report lfc1971 February 15, 2020 1:48 AM GMT
I dispute the Russian figures for a start . As I said Stalin said 7 million died
And also Russia killed hundreds of thousands of its own people

But let’s take this one step at a time
Let’s say 6 million Germans died

I’ll ask again , what is your point ?
Report Kelly February 15, 2020 1:55 AM GMT
If you google Russian ww2 casualties from all sources you will get figures starting at 8.6 million through to 27 million .  The generally accepted figure is 20 million as I quoted , have seen it on various respected documentaries .
Report lfc1971 February 15, 2020 2:00 AM GMT
Yes we have all heard the figure of 20 million casualties
But of course they did murder hundreds of thousands of their own people, it’s an estimate
And of course Germany and Russia did start WW2

Now I’ll ask again , 6 million Germans died
What is your point ? ....
Report Kelly February 15, 2020 2:07 AM GMT
The point about 20 million Russian casualties in WW2 is that that is 40 times more than British casualties ( which included Irish ). If that does not put "suffering" in perspective , I must be missing something . Russia suffered much more at German hands than did Britain .  Being an island is sometimes a big advantage .

Before you resurrect Winston Churchill , your hero as well as Boris's , my admiration for Churchill in relation to his parliamentary and war efforts is huge , specifically for his behaviour from mid 1930's until war end .  Before that his record was flawed , warless he would not be the figure he quite rightly is. And he did have a lot of help from an Irishman , whose advice  in reality effected Churchills "election" as Prime Minister to see out the war .
Report lfc1971 February 15, 2020 2:16 AM GMT
We are not talking about suffering , who mentioned that ?
If you want to go along those lines perhaps you might like to think more about another figure of 6 million, the 6 million Jews that were murdered in  , or the millions who were murdered in Soviet Russia

Now the 6 million German soldiers that died
What is the point you are making ?
Report lfc1971 February 15, 2020 2:18 AM GMT
You see when those people were being sent to the gas chambers

Ireland sat back and did nothing .
Report lfc1971 February 15, 2020 2:22 AM GMT
Indeed we were lucky to have Londonderry as our most westerly base , and it played a crucial role in the battle of the Atlantic
The ROI refused any help
Report lfc1971 February 15, 2020 2:26 AM GMT
Londonderry abd Larne and Belfast all played a vital role , very good
Report lfc1971 February 15, 2020 2:29 AM GMT
The calm deep waters of lough Erne and it’s westerly position made this base ideal for the RAF and USAAF who were patrolling the Atlantic
Report lfc1971 February 15, 2020 2:31 AM GMT
So it’s good and honourable that at least N Ireland played their part in this holy undertaking to defeat the evil of Nazi Germany
Report lfc1971 February 15, 2020 2:34 AM GMT
So the boast that since 1921 Ireland hasn’t gone to war ?
Well that doesn’t impress me , I insist on being unimpressed by that .
Report Kelly February 15, 2020 2:44 AM GMT
lfc ,Germany did start WW2 , not Russia as you state in your 02.00 post .

Germany and Russia had a mutual non aggression pact signed in 1939 ( which neither had any intention of keeping , pieces of paper mean nothing when it comes to warlike intentions , remember Chamberlain waving his piece of paper ) .

Hitlers big mistake was to attack Russia despite the non aggression pact .  But Hitler was a maniac , there is little point trying to fathom out his thoughts .

The point about my 20 million , 6 million , half a million is their relativity . Particularly if you set them against other figures from history such as I have quoted . Britain ( including Northern Ireland ) is rightly proud of their role in WW2 , but casualties were nowhere near WW1 figures , and have to be viewed as relatively small in the light of what transpired world wide .  I have not a clue how many Japanese died in WW2 , suspect it was a lot though .     

An interesting fact about Churchill in relation to Parliament and its relationship with Royalty was that in the 1936 Kings resignation debate in the House of Commons one MP walked out of the debate as he opposed the Government stance on the matter . History should now be putting that action in perspective given how views on marrying a divorcee have changed with the passage of time . Churchill saw no problem in "allowing " Mrs Simpson , but he was alone apart from the other MP who followed him out .  Brendan Bracken from Tipperary , subsequently Churchills right hand man throughout WW2 . At that time Churchill was also warning those who would listen that German adherence to Treaty of Versailles regulations re re-armament was non existent . How did anyone ignore Guernica ? Were they in gliders ?
Report Kelly February 15, 2020 2:59 AM GMT
The fact that post 1921 Ireland has never as a country been an aggressor is surely something we Irish can be proud of .  Re non involvement in WW2 , nobody knows exactly what sort of conversations went on between Churchill and De Valera . My handle on this was that Churchill offered De Valera Irish unity if Ireland "joined up " , maybe with other affiliations attached . De Valera maybe did not trust Churchill ( or his Government/ country) to deliver fully , knowing the difficulty unity might cause , and with the Curragh mutiny in mind .

Personally I thought De Valera was wrong not to commit Ireland , although they did "facilitate" Britain in certain areas . But I reckon you would have needed to be there to understand how the conversations ended . Thousands of Irish did volunteer , south and north ( there was no conscription in Northern Ireland , but we pulled our weight , protestant and catholic blood together ). Healing opportunity missed too.
Report Kelly February 15, 2020 3:24 AM GMT
A figure I have omitted is the number of innocent Jews who perished in WW2 at the hands of Hitler . 6 million at least , none in uniform , all innocent victims . And there were a lot who left Germanic countries and had to relocate to various parts of the world . One of our Jewish friends in Belfast studied at the Conservatoire in Vienna to be a concert pianist . Before he finished his studies he was "rounded up" to be "interviewed" . When his turn came , the Nazi at the desk looked at him , and said " were you studying piano in the Conservatoire" . He nodded assent , and the Nazi waved him to the "escape " door .  Life sometimes hangs by a thread .

He came to Northern Ireland where he had Jewish relations who had come to UK around 1937  , gave up the piano as a career ( but still played beautifully , made our piano sing ) , started up a successful business with the help of his relations , married , had 3 children , lived happily ever after . Lucky man though. Personal experience beats anything you read in books .
Report lfc1971 February 15, 2020 9:35 AM GMT
Kelly Germany and Russia started WW2 by invading Poland . In fact Russia took control of a bigger area of Poland than Germany did
The Germans invaded on 1 sept 1939 and Russia one week after signing the Ribbentrop Molotov pact on 17 sept

Kelly yes there was no conscription in N Ireland , ( although the N Ireland gov wanted it and did play their full part as we have seen in WW2 )

The reason why it wasn’t introduced ? Britain was at the time trying to persuade America to come into the war
At the time there was the usual element of Irish Americans and they were intent on not doing so , especially on the side of Britain
The thought was that conscription , even in this British part of Ireland would be enough to trigger the Catholics
and might not be helpful in persuading America to enter WW2

Which would have been disasterous for Britain and mankind
That’s why
Report lfc1971 February 15, 2020 9:57 AM GMT
Kelly you are continuing with your boast ( the same as we heard from the Irish government official to its new citizens)
that Ireland since 1921 has never been to war and that this is a good thing , unlike others

But I have been trying to point out to you why it is not as simple as that , why it is very easy to sit on the sidelines and allow other countries to take on the burden. That burden fell to Britain in WW2 , be thankful to Britain and show a little bit of shame that Ireland did not take part in that sacred undertaking to defeat the evil that was Nazi gernany
And less boasting from Irish government officials please .
Report moisok February 15, 2020 2:17 PM GMT
As an entity, britain did  stand virtually alone in 1940 after dunkirk - there were a small number of commonwealth effectives in the country  IN BRITAIN
also remnants of czech polish & french forces etc etc

the majority of commonwealth forces were in Egypt etc
Report Kelly February 15, 2020 3:43 PM GMT
Not decrying Britain's part in WW2 , just pointing out that Britain being alone was not accurate .  Alone means ALONE . Nobody else involved . Why do you lads dispute the obvious ?

Re Ireland not being officially involved , I have documented ( on previous and current posts) that I disagreed with that , but it should be recorded that Ireland put no obstacles in the way of the many from the ROI who volunteered . And re volunteering , most people would appreciate that those who volunteered ( like the Aussies) should be accorded at least ( if not more) as much credit as those conscripted .

Re the outcome of WW2 , it is fair to say that the Allies won the war . Unlikely that things would have been the same if Britain had been truly alone .  The media and the propagandists don't always paint an accurate picture . Best war film I have ever seen ( 1917 only gets 7/10 in my book) was "Saving Private Ryan " . Visiting Normandy and war cemeteries and places like Pegasus Bridge and Arramanche gives you some idea of the magnitude of the effort involved ( by all ) , and reading the names of the casualties brings home the make up of those who served .
Report politicspunter February 15, 2020 3:46 PM GMT
Not decrying Britain's part in WW2 , just pointing out that Britain being alone was not accurate .  Alone means ALONE . Nobody else involved . Why do you lads dispute the obvious ?

Because they are total and utter time wasting fannies and you should block them.
Report Kelly February 15, 2020 3:59 PM GMT
lfc, classifying facts as a "boast" ( your term) is an old trick in throwing mud . Disciple of Goebbels propaganda wise ?

It is a fact that Britain has always displayed an expansionist policy in relation to the world . Hence Empire . There is therefore a difference in attitude historically as to how we Irish view ( and treat) the world as compared to the British . Being "different" is not being "better" or "worse" , it is just being different .

The British like to be in control , the Irish like to be involved . Different attitudes . Brexit maybe emphasises that .
Report lfc1971 February 15, 2020 4:05 PM GMT
Kelly you really don't seem to understand. The reason that it was possible for example for 145 Polish fighter pilots to serve in the RAF during the Battle of Britain was because Britain stood alone at that time. It was Britain they came to. Not America, not Russia they had invaded and enslaved Poland along with Germany ...and not Ireland they were not helping either

It was British, not Irish Spitfires and Hurricanes that they flew, understand?
Report Kelly February 15, 2020 4:10 PM GMT
Wouldn't know how to block anyone , politicspunter . Anyway I believe in free speech , no matter how shallow or bigoted an attitude their posts indicate .

If you own message is valid no amount of drivel can detract from it .  But you have to get things right , the slightest slip and you become the devil incarnate , spreading untruths etc , no matter how insignificant any mistake .  Propaganda experts , one Jewish slip up and the whole race is castigated as evil .  And if there is no slip up we will invent one .  Goebbels . Lessons of history .
Report lfc1971 February 15, 2020 4:10 PM GMT
It really is a bit rich now you are bragging about the Irish liking to be involved. That's fine, but I am afraid someone sometimes has to take on the burden when there is an event such as WW2. Ireland I am afraid were prepared to let others such as Britain face that.
Not exactly something to be proud of in your short history since 1921
Report lfc1971 February 15, 2020 4:13 PM GMT
Now of course you are making up things. Where has anyone classed the German people as evil? It was the regime that was evil
Can you try to be honest, thanks
Report lfc1971 February 15, 2020 4:19 PM GMT
We could take another look at the British Empire if you like another time, that's a different topic
I can assure you your historical knowledge of that will be lacking also
Report Kelly February 15, 2020 4:20 PM GMT
I understand everything lfc. You are prattling on as if Britain won WW2 on their own . The Allies won WW2 , that's what it would say on the trophy if there was one .

Roosevelt , Stalin , and Churchill were the Big 3 controlling the war effort . Churchill just wanted to end the war , Roosevelt and Stalin both had other plans as well . If that resonates with currently observable activities maybe history keeps repeating itself , it's just that the names change , part of the reason we Irish ( and Scots) view leaving the EU as a mistake .
Report lfc1971 February 15, 2020 4:24 PM GMT
Kelly if you can find a quote from myself , at any time or any thread where I said that Britain won WW2 on its own go ahead...

or is that just another figment of your imagination? lets see...
Report lfc1971 February 15, 2020 4:30 PM GMT
And quite the opposite, What do you think I meant when I alluded to the fear that if America didn't enter the war it could mean disaster for Britain and mankind?
Report lfc1971 February 15, 2020 4:33 PM GMT
at 09:35 ?
Report lfc1971 February 15, 2020 4:43 PM GMT
Liverpool match starting soon, come back when you can answer, or at least understand those basic questions Kelly, thanks
Report Kelly February 15, 2020 4:44 PM GMT
lfc , inventing things again , getting tiresome . The German people I like , they are among my favourite Europeans , hard working and logical and committed to a European ideal . The evil that existed in Germany leading to WW2 was embedded in the Nazi party , who via Goebbels and Hitler ( and aided by inactivity from European neighbours , who must have known what was was going on - but ignored it) , managed to hoodwink almost the entire German nation into believing their propaganda .

The Nazi's also had an expansionist policy , the Jews and the Versailles treaty signatories were the bogey men .

The lesson of history is that if you can find "bogey men" and actionable causes ( real or imaginary) it is relatively easy to attract followers and keep feeding them propaganda . If you can also persuade them to back you with finance it also helps , you can promise them the earth knowing you are unlikely to be held to account if you still hold the cards during the end game .  If you lose you have had the thrill of leading the charge , dying gloriously does not enter into it as you will have gathered up friends in high places preferably far away giving you a bolt hole when things go wrong .

Some people don't read history the way I do .  That's their prerogative , does not make me wrong though .
Report moisok February 15, 2020 5:03 PM GMT
as I said - after dunkirk we were essentially alone
Report moisok February 15, 2020 5:05 PM GMT
let's belittle anything we have done and apologise for slavery while we are at it (even though we stopped it) 

drizzle drizzle moan groan    negate   

I tell yer wot - move somewhere else
Report lfc1971 February 15, 2020 8:23 PM GMT
No answer from Kelly I notice just more waffle . Why am I not surprised
A simple question to answer , well that’s if you are capable This is what happens when you get entrenched in your bitter views
Not unknown , in Ireland .
Report pa lapsy February 15, 2020 9:35 PM GMT
Aren't you the bitter one though?,every 2nd post slagging the country,did Paddy Mc Ginty Sh*g your wife?

For a pish poor agricultural country enough Irish died in both world wars,nothing to do with us,we were an almost poverty stricken country who less than 20 years before that threw off the shackles of British oppression for 100's of years before.
Report pa lapsy February 15, 2020 9:49 PM GMT
Lfc, what is "the butchers apron" ?
Report lfc1971 February 15, 2020 10:34 PM GMT
PL we are not talking about Ireland’s contribution in WW1. That was as part of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland
We are talking about after that.

Ok you may say that WW2 was “ nothing to do with us “ ( Ireland )
But that’ is  just the point I am making . It is very easy to say that and to do that .There is nothing to be proud off in that . But someone had to rid the world of the evil that was Hitler’s Nazi Germany
To its eternal credit and glory Britain took on that burden .
That is all I am saying
Report lfc1971 February 15, 2020 10:40 PM GMT
I think Ireland should have taken part in WW2, but that’s my opinion
Yours and others may be different , ok
But I don’t want to hear any Irish government official bragging about it , sorry it doesn’t seem to make much sense to do so
Report pa lapsy February 15, 2020 10:50 PM GMT
You skirted "the butchers apron" why? During the 16-19th century over 50 countries were under "Imperial British rule" it was a nickname for the Union flag.
Google "operation legacy", you were taught ww2 and choo choo trains but not that.

I'd wear a poppy myself if it was only for those in ww2.
Report lfc1971 February 15, 2020 11:22 PM GMT
Pl The Battle of Britain is on tv. now
Channel 31 paramount network , Laurence Olivier and Robert Shaw , worth watching :)
Report Kelly February 16, 2020 1:20 AM GMT
"Someone had to rid the world of the evil that was Nazi Germany .  To its eternal credit and glory Britain took on that burden "

lfc 22.34 . 

The Russians and the Americans who between them lost more than 40 times the number of British might have some alternative view on that lfc .

Blinkered view , but what's new ?
Report Kelly February 16, 2020 1:31 AM GMT
Anyone who is proud of the fact that their nation has invaded and subjugated another nation has a screw loose in my book .

And dividing such countries before leaving is another minus .

History at work .
Report lfc1971 February 16, 2020 8:37 AM GMT
Kelly you don’t seem to understand . When I say that Britain took on the burden of defeating Nazi Germany it doesn’t mean that other countries did not do so also
But it does mean that Britain did , and it does mean that Britain faced the real possibility of destruction when it did so . Especially at the time between July 1940 and July 1941 when it stood alone . America was not in the war and Russia who along with Germany had invaded and carved up Poland between them

That is something glorious , something to be proud off, especially given the ruthless nature of the enemy
There now try and understand that , I cannot say it any  simpler than that.
Report lfc1971 February 16, 2020 8:41 AM GMT
ps . You are making up things again . Where has anyone on this thread mentioned being proud of invading other countries ?

Or is that another figment of your imagination ? I notice you haven’t answered the previous one or explained that yet

No surprise that .
Report lfc1971 February 16, 2020 8:41 AM GMT
ps . You are making up things again . Where has anyone on this thread mentioned being proud of invading other countries ?

Or is that another figment of your imagination ? I notice you haven’t answered the previous one or explained that yet

No surprise that .
Report lfc1971 February 16, 2020 8:52 AM GMT
Kelly you claim to believe in free speech . Here’s a little tip for you
That means listening to what the person says , trying to do so honestly, not inventing stuff in your own head that you think they said or that you might through bias think they will say

You have to listen , otherwise your claim that you believe in free speech is meaningless

That’s a little life lesson right there Kelly , it’s never too late
Report politicspunter February 16, 2020 8:59 AM GMT
Kelly, to block someone just go to "block user" on that persons posts.
Report lfc1971 February 16, 2020 9:37 AM GMT
Oh dear , there’s the forum stalker back Sad
Report moisok February 16, 2020 9:43 AM GMT
britain stood alone in 1940
Report PorcupineorPineapple February 16, 2020 10:07 AM GMT
Someone should do a thread detailing all the atrocities committed under the British flag that you never get taught in school. There's a bit more to British history than 1066, Henry VIII, tobacco and WWII.

Would be brilliant just to see the frothing from all the racist coffin dodgers on here.
Report pa lapsy February 16, 2020 10:12 AM GMT
Indeed,comments on "the butchers apron" and "operation legacy" ignored,at the same time attacking Ireland for not mobilising its army might for ww2. Some beauts.
Report lfc1971 February 16, 2020 10:30 AM GMT
Detail everything all the atrocities and all the good achieved and teach it in schools, of course that's fine and probably correct.

And do likewise in all countries including Ireland who have only now come close to voting Sinn Fein into parliament, detail the atrocities committed they were responsible for
Teach that to Irish schoolchildren please
Report pa lapsy February 16, 2020 10:34 AM GMT
75th anniverary this weekend of the bombing of Dresden where up to 100,000 civilians lost their lives when the war was practically over.
Report PorcupineorPineapple February 16, 2020 10:38 AM GMT
For once I agree with lfc!!!

I'm sure edy will confirm, but a huge part of history lessons in Germany is its role in the world wars and facing up to what it and its people did, and not trying to sugarcoat atrocities.

A refreshing honesty that we should be looking to emulate.
Report lfc1971 February 16, 2020 10:44 AM GMT
Yes that's part of the history of WW2, it should of course be taught and questioned was it necessary, just as the dropping of the atomic bomb can be questioned. These things are taught and these questions are asked by anyone who studies history in Britain. That's fine.

Also, of course in Irish classrooms, teach about the atrocities committed by their new elected representatives into government, Sinn Fein/IRA
Teach the Irish schoolchildren that.
Report lfc1971 February 16, 2020 10:49 AM GMT
you've agreed with me before pineapple,although not oftenHappy
Report Kelly February 16, 2020 11:17 AM GMT
Regarding the teaching of history , legacy issues have become a big debating point here in relation to getting Stormont back up and running . Some people have been dragging their feet regarding this for years and years . Strangely enough none of those are on the "Irish" side of the argument . It is the "Brits " who don't want the truth to surface .

Detailing "atrocities" is a dangerous road to go down given acknowledged history to date   .  Where do you start , traditionally the "winners" write history , and it usually takes time before real truth emerges . But if there is a running sore , you tackle it , you don't brush it under the carpet and try to hide it .

The single biggest atrocity in British / Irish history was the potato famine around 1847 when a million Irish were allowed to die , starving to death when there was adequate food within the shores of England , Scotland , Wales , and Ireland . Plus a million emigrants on top of that . Other "atrocities " committed by both sides are irrelevant compared with those figures . The population of Ireland , south and north , was around 8 million prior to that .
Report lfc1971 February 16, 2020 11:26 AM GMT
Of course I think you will find that the potato famine is taught and should be taught. As long as people such as Kelly understand or know or have heard for example that the potato famine was not singular to Ireland, it also happened in 3 or 4 other major European countries at the same time and although perhaps not on the same scale thousands died. Why this should have happened I don't know, but yes it was a major disaster.
They happened then in many countries, even other European countries, not only Ireland
That's the history , teach it.
Report pa lapsy February 16, 2020 11:27 AM GMT
Report Kelly February 16, 2020 11:33 AM GMT
And before anyone starts debating recent history as happened here from mid sixties to mid nineties , they need to watch the recent BBC documentary "The history of the troubles " . Not depend on the propaganda foisted on the populace by the "controlled" media in that period .  It took 2 years to make that program , to uncover what really happened and root causes rather than what had been  "presented" .

lfc and co blithely ignored references to that program in previous despatches , the truth being too uncomfortable and not fitting in with their views . The "winners" traditionally write history , particularly if they control the media . A la Goebbels and co. Always remember that when making any assessment .
Report lfc1971 February 16, 2020 11:36 AM GMT
European potato famine: Wiki

The European potato famine was a food crisis caused by potato blight that struck northern Europe in the mid 1840s This time was also known as the hungry forties. While the criso produced excess mortality and suffering across the affected areas particularly affected were the Scottish highlands and even more harshly Ireland
Report lfc1971 February 16, 2020 11:40 AM GMT
It meant it also affected birthrate, Irelands fell by a third, Flanders lost 20-30%, the Netherlands about 10-20% , Prussia Germany about 12%
Report pa lapsy February 16, 2020 11:41 AM GMT
Read the link i put up,press on chapter "British intent" uncomfortable reading i know.(as are the other chapters)

Do it in your own time.
Report lfc1971 February 16, 2020 11:43 AM GMT
Maybe some people in Ireland are not aware of those things regarding the potato famine that struck Northern Europe, teach it
Report pa lapsy February 16, 2020 11:48 AM GMT
Truth is sore,you can't hide from it,i few sentences from that had you reaching for the sick bucket as indeed looking at "the history of the troubles", it is contrary to your beliefs and shows them up as rubbish.
Report pa lapsy February 16, 2020 11:51 AM GMT
At least you half agreed Baronet Arthur Harris was a thug and should have been tried for war crimes in Nuremburg.
Report lfc1971 February 16, 2020 11:52 AM GMT
And yes and also, teach the Irish schoolchildren the atrocities committed by Sinn/Fein IRA, just recently elected into the Irish parliament

And also if you want to go back further into history teach them about the invasion of Scotland by the Irish so ferocious and complete that almost no trace was left of the original Scottish inhabitants, certainly that amounted to a real genocide

Teach that to the Irish schoolchildren
Report lfc1971 February 16, 2020 11:58 AM GMT
PL, ON 28 March 1945 pm Winston Churchill noted in a memorandum: Dresden remains a serious query against the conduct of Allied bombing.'

Teach that, that's part of the history
Report Kelly February 16, 2020 11:59 AM GMT
To put those figures in perspective , 2 million out of 8 million either dead or displaced , in current British population  terms that represents 15 million Britons . A quarter of the whole population . Sobering .
Report lfc1971 February 16, 2020 12:03 PM GMT
Just a minute Kelly , displaced may mean they moved elsewhere to live, possibly England or America
Report lfc1971 February 16, 2020 12:06 PM GMT
Or other parts of Ireland
Report lfc1971 February 16, 2020 12:11 PM GMT
possibly Liverpool?
Report Kelly February 16, 2020 12:13 PM GMT
lfc, 11.58 .  Yes that is one of the reasons I have resonance with Churchill , specifically from mid 30's to after the war . Not sure who actually sanctioned Dresden , and I doubt they anticipated the scale of what transpired . Hitler started bombing cities , up to that cities had been spared . If you sup with the devil ...

Could never figure out why Churchill got the heave ho after the war , he and his helpers should have been national heroes for what they achieved against the odds . Shows how fickle voters are sometimes . But I suppose the NHS might not have happened if the conservatives had been elected in 1947 instead of Atlees Labour . Twists and turns .
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