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sofiakenny
12 Dec 19 22:21
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Date Joined: 02 Apr 05
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Goodbye.CoolCoolCoolGrin

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Replies: 94
By:
28dogs
When: 12 Dec 19 23:29
If only that could be true.
By:
sofiakenny
When: 12 Dec 19 23:30
It will be.
By:
pa lapsy
When: 13 Dec 19 09:00
Northern Ireland says slan abhaile Cool
By:
flushgordon1
When: 13 Dec 19 09:24
45% for 55% against no surrender to the provisional Special Needs Party.
By:
OnePercenter
When: 13 Dec 19 09:50
English people dream of the Jocks voting for independence. Let them stew in debt & buckfast.
By:
clacton
When: 13 Dec 19 10:29
Let Scotland go their own way. Most miserable moaning bunch of people ever to grace the House of Commons. Never heard anyone of them say anything nice. Get rid.
By:
pa lapsy
When: 13 Dec 19 10:32
Yes,no need to collude with far right English nationalism.
By:
Kriskin
When: 13 Dec 19 12:10
kenny - let U and ur nationalist have ur next referendum vote.  U will be beat again.  What will happen then.  Last nights vote did not alter anything.  SNP have only 45% of the people.  That will be around the same if we do have another referendum.  SNP share of the vote only went up 1%.
By:
Kriskin
When: 13 Dec 19 12:11
Sturgeon currently talking nonsense in her speech
By:
Platini
When: 13 Dec 19 12:29
let them bring it on, Kriskin.

they will lose.
By:
Dotchinite
When: 13 Dec 19 12:41
I applaud the SNP wanting to control their own destiny even though its not in the financial interests of their people.
By:
Kriskin
When: 13 Dec 19 12:43
Dotch - they need to concentrate firstly on managing Scotland.  NHS, Transport, Education, etc not in a good place
By:
Kelly
When: 13 Dec 19 12:48
To every action there is an equal and opposite reaction . ( English) Newtons law .

SNP and Scottish reactions to Boris's next moves are going to be interesting . Boris needs to be careful ( which I doubt , he is basically an adventurer ) . Sturgeon has an undoubted huge mandate , largely because the Scots see no virtue in  the Conservatives or Labour or Lib Dems  , clear messages to all those parties yesterday .

Sturgeon might want to act quickly though , there may be fall out from Salmond situation .
By:
saddo
When: 13 Dec 19 13:01
Assuming the Scots got independence, could they afford to get in the EU? The EU have 3 countries waiting in the wings who will be negative contributors, could they afford any more?
By:
sixtwosix
When: 13 Dec 19 13:03
Let them leave.
They will have to proof they are fit to join EU  , as they will be next month.
Tell them to get own currency.
They can only leave once , get shut.
By:
Wallflower
When: 13 Dec 19 13:05
Not only surge in SNP vote but when it comes to Indy Ref 2 there are a few additional factors:

..  EU nationals in Scotland will now vote to stay (last time there was fear/threat from Westminster that Scotland would be out of EU)
..  6 more years of youth vote on register
..  An unrecognisable and offensive political culture in England
..  "the better together" "partnership of equals" has been exposed for the bullsh1t it was - Brexit none of Scotland's business


Prediction:   Emphatic vote for independence.  Enough is enough - have to leave the mad-house. I'm very very confident - see it now in my own family formerly pro-Union voters
By:
themover
When: 13 Dec 19 13:05
The SNP don't accept any referendum results but they keep wanting them!
By:
Kriskin
When: 13 Dec 19 13:10

Dec 13, 2019 -- 1:05PM, Wallflower wrote:


Not only surge in SNP vote but when it comes to Indy Ref 2 there are a few additional factors:..  EU nationals in Scotland will now vote to stay (last time there was fear/threat from Westminster that Scotland would be out of EU)..  6 more years of youth vote on register..  An unrecognisable and offensive political culture in England..  "the better together" "partnership of equals" has been exposed for the bullsh1t it was - Brexit none of Scotland's businessPrediction:   Emphatic vote for independence.  Enough is enough - have to leave the mad-house. I'm very very confident - see it now in my own family formerly pro-Union voters


Wallflower - What surge.  1% extra.  That's NOT a surge.  It's the oposite in our household.  We have had enough of the SNP and that also goes for a lot of my fellow Celtic supporters who a lot of people think would be natural voters for Independence

By:
macarony
When: 13 Dec 19 13:18
Once Boris gets his Bexit deal done and if there is little if any distruption and now Corbyn has gone, then the snps bubble will burst. Labour under a new center leader will win back most of the seats they have lost to the snp
By:
Wallflower
When: 13 Dec 19 13:21
themover 13 Dec 19 13:05 
The SNP don't accept any referendum results but they keep wanting them!

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Scotland voted NO to Brexit in the referendum.  It is not a region, it is a country - the UK is not A country in the general sense it is a political union of 4 countries (1 of which the most of it left a long time ago -and has thrived).

If it truly was a "partnership of equals" then all 4 countries would have had to vote to leave.  Brexiteers rabbit on cluelessly about "undemocratic" EU but ask them what is the EU Council, EU Parliament, EU Commission and how they work/interact - they haven't a clue. It is more democratic than the UK is. In addition on major treaties (especially trade deals of which they (ie. WE!!)  have over 60 significant ones) - ALL COUNTRIES MUST AGREE before its signed. That is democracy and what a real political union looks like.

So if the UK was a proper union the same principles would be in place - as it is the UK is just "greater England" it always was.  But not for much longer.....
By:
themover
When: 13 Dec 19 13:25
"If it truly was a "partnership of equals" then all 4 countries would have had to vote to leave."

Scotland voted to remain in the UK and the UK voted to leave the EU. Case closed, but if Scotland wants another referendum just to confirm it doesn't want to change it's mind then good luck in getting the UK Parliament to approve one.
By:
Wallflower
When: 13 Dec 19 13:34
themover 13 Dec 19 13:25 
"If it truly was a "partnership of equals" then all 4 countries would have had to vote to leave."

Scotland voted to remain in the UK and the UK voted to leave the EU. Case closed, but if Scotland wants another referendum just to confirm it doesn't want to change it's mind then good luck in getting the UK Parliament to approve one.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Two main reasons hindered people  -  we would be out of EU and currency issue.

If there was no Brexit and UK remained in EU then agree case closed - no independence referendum for the foreseeable - cant be justified. Scotland is in two unions - Eu and UK - the EU is the bigger and more important one.  If Scotland is taken out of its bigger union AGAINST ITS WILL - then it is constitutionally correct that a second independence referendum should take place. 

Getting UK parliament to approve it is a separate issue but does not distract from the legitimacy of having one.
By:
macarony
When: 13 Dec 19 13:42
You do know that Scotland would be out of both unions if it won another Ref, depending on the deal Boris and EU agree to then there might be little change in real termseconomically
By:
themover
When: 13 Dec 19 13:55
I suspect that the EU wouldn't have much problem taking Scotland in independently as it already meets most of the requirements. They probably will be made to take on the Euro though which they may or may not want.
By:
Wallflower
When: 13 Dec 19 13:59
--   EU has indicated favourable to fast-tracking Scotland entry

--   Your second point is true - if there was no real change economically it would imply no trade disruption to goods AND SERVICES because we follow EU rules (they are bigger beast, so they WILL set the rules) and we are aligned to either or both Single Market / Customs Union. Then you are correct, no real reason for Scotland to leave UK - but the bigger question would be why Brexit when we would probably pay in (in order to have access, which is reasonable), businesses follow EU-based rules in order to be certified to trade freely, and we have no say in making themShocked. What was the point to begin with? But I agree in principle. 

Additionally Sturgeon cant call for Indy Ref 2 until the terms are seen. This is going to be a big big problem for Johnson - no way will this be done by Dec 2020 - its the usual arrogance and hubris from the Tories - say or promise anything to get over immediate blockage, worry about it later. In the real world - the EU will tell the UK when the trade deal is ready. There is a very real possibility of UK being in transition for years - the "vassal state" condition.  Frustrating for Brexiteers, and for businesses who just lose patience and leave to locate in EU (EU won't mind as it will be net gainer and it will once more squeeze the UK as it has teh UK has once more stupidly put itself on the clock when it doesn't even know where the destination is).  But this could well be equally frustrating for Sturgeon / SNP I think - momentum could be lost as UK remains in limbo.
By:
macarony
When: 13 Dec 19 14:15
Can you explain to me how Scotland will survive economically in the years it takes to join the EU? I assume you know something I don't
By:
themover
When: 13 Dec 19 14:18
If Scotland became independent, say in 2023 (allowing 2 years for UK withdrawal agreement) it would then be another 4 years before it rejoined the EU ie 2027. It would have an agreement with the EU, as with the other applicants, under an association agreement. If Scotland keeps the Pound Sterling Scotland would not be able to demonstrate that it could commit to joining the euro at some future point.
By:
Wallflower
When: 13 Dec 19 14:25
Why would it not?

Same as a Brexit UK - it will still trade. Scotland has a lot going for it.  I've actually come to the conclusion that in a global world you may be better off being a small economy in a bigger trade bloc - more nimble to ever increasing changes of pace - but with great access to big markets. Look at Denmark, Luxembourg, Austria, Estonia (fabulous example of a transformed economy), Ireland, Finland etc - all in the top 10-20 of every socio-econonmic scale measuring wealth, health and quality of life.

Will be difficulties perhaps at first - but the fact we are relatively small means we have many successful models to look at - we can copy those economic models that would work for us too, and then devise our own. I fully confident we have the capability to manage our own affairs - countries smaller than us do so very successfully.

Besides being part of  a dysfunctional UK is a drag on us.
By:
themover
When: 13 Dec 19 14:30
You sound like a Leaver now Grin
By:
Wallflower
When: 13 Dec 19 14:34
Not sure about the detail and don't have time to look it up (working from homeLaughLaugh) - getting ready for a call supposedly.

The Irish, and I will hand it to them, they were all over Brexit from the start. Apparently they already have an agreement with the EU that if NI left the UK it would automatically accede to the EU, with temporary representation by Ireland - until new "country" (Ireland) was re-constituted. They have worked out the "transition" - would be interesting to see how that worked and how much of it would be applicable to Scotland - how its "transition" status would be managed.
By:
Wallflower
When: 13 Dec 19 14:46
themover 13 Dec 19 14:30 
You sound like a Leaver now Grin

----------------------------------------------

LaughLaugh  -  except missing one key ingredient "part of bigger trade bloc".  I've learned a lot about EU in last few years, especially trade - had an idea, but now I know way more.

Trade deals are crucial to an economy - EU's problem is/was each country is relatively small in comparison to US, China in particular. Might is right in trade deals - very tough business.  The irony is the Single Market the world's most successful trade bloc was a UK ideaCry. The US hates it because when they sit down with EU they aren't actually the big boy at the table - the EU has the bigger market - we can set the rules and terms. This has benefitted EU countries enormously. Other regions in the world try to replicate it - to stop themselves getting shafted.


I know a Dutch guy whose brother works in Brussels he said on one level they were glad to see the back of UK because their politicians were low calibre - out-dated union types or dim-witted public schoolboys - but deeply regret the loss of British diplomats and civil servants - top-class who actually devised much of the successful EU processes, treaties, procedures etc.  (Including the withdrawal mechanism ironically LaughLaugh)
By:
sofiakenny
When: 13 Dec 19 14:47
Indy at the moment is about 50/50..however the more bojo ignores indyref the more indy will win any vote...its coming...
By:
themover
When: 13 Dec 19 14:49
Northern Ireland relies on a heavy subsidy from Westminster. I'm not even sure there's a desire in the republic to take that on, as much as a united Ireland sounds nice.

I agree the UK's Single Market idea is spot on. It can now do Single Market+ without having to be ruled from Brussels Cool
By:
Wallflower
When: 13 Dec 19 15:01
But but - it cant be a single market on its own. And I accept I'm being crude but UK's d1ck just isn't big enough to count.

The two big agencies the Banking Authority (massively important to everything the EU does was ran from London, not Brussels) as was the European Medicines Agency. We have lost both......policy was agreed by each country in Brussels / Strasbourg but the real power - the implementation of the policy - was often from London in particular, Paris and Frankfurt.  This was never highlighted - we were very influential and highly-regarded in the EU (despite our embarrassing politicians).

Anyway..... need to earn a living
By:
Platini
When: 13 Dec 19 15:29
sounds like the UK are behind a lot of the EU's success, no surprise there, we have the experience, the  brains, the talent, and the resources.
thats why the EU hate the idea of us leaving, they know we can make a success of it outside their club. (Regardless of how big the Beatles were, John Lennon was always going to be successful as a solo artist).

As for the EU being big boys v the likes of the US LaughLaughLaughLaughLaughLaughLaughLaugh
By:
Wallflower
When: 13 Dec 19 15:37
EU is a bigger economy than the US
By:
themover
When: 13 Dec 19 15:42
I think if you take out the UK's 3 trillion out of the EU the US tops the EU, or is pretty close.
By:
sofiakenny
When: 13 Dec 19 15:42
correct..and uk and usa ruled by liars who reward deceit and untruths.
By:
Wallflower
When: 13 Dec 19 15:45
The point I'm making is when EU sits down with US or China - they have plenty of muscles to flex.

If UK sits down with EU, US or China (or India for that matter) well.........not really like with like is it?  That's a problem. A big one.
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