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tony57
06 Jul 19 15:32
Joined:
Date Joined: 13 Oct 10
| Topic/replies: 12,539 | Blogger: tony57's blog
https://quillette.com/2019/06/29/eastern-europes-emigration-crisis/

as ive said..taking the best from these countries to work as cheap labour is immoral and those country,s pay a heavy price
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Report unitedbiscuits July 8, 2019 8:29 PM BST
Not ok.
Report unitedbiscuits July 8, 2019 8:29 PM BST
Not ok.
Report unitedbiscuits July 8, 2019 8:29 PM BST
Not ok.
Report PorcupineorPineapple July 8, 2019 8:44 PM BST
Tony, you've ran away from the question again.


Go on, have another go. There's a brave boy.
Report tony57 July 8, 2019 8:48 PM BST
ok i,ll play...who said countries own the people? as you well know its a silly question...but you get a passport its called the law..you don't want any law you want open borders..again for the last time..every country has a right to not let anyone in who does not pass their laws or have a pass port..hope that helps..night
Report PorcupineorPineapple July 8, 2019 8:58 PM BST
Good man.

Taking your back to your opening post, you said we're taking them.

As I've discussed yesterday, perhaps you'd like to illuminate how people are being "taken" rather than choosing something better for themselves and their families of their own free will.

You seem to have a notion that people are obliged to stay and work for their motherland. You may not want to call it ownership. Maybe indentured. Is that better? Why does a person have the responsibility to a decision he had zero part in? That is, on deciding the country in which he was born?

Or, to repeat the original question:

If someone wants to move somewhere else to make a better life for himself and his family then why shouldn't he?
Report macarony July 8, 2019 9:42 PM BST
Because the intended host country might say no, then you either stay put or look elsewhere.
Report tony57 July 8, 2019 9:46 PM BST
if the law allows it...but you don't want any laws..you want open borders which is a NONSENSE , bit like your argument against having laws about who comes to our country..
Report PorcupineorPineapple July 8, 2019 10:41 PM BST
But you both agree that it's fine for a person to think that.

If I get an offer of a better job that's in Manchester I'm allowed to go for it. Or if it's in London. Or Madrid. Or Sydney.

That the desire to make the best of your life, and to give the best chances for your kids trumps any supposed notion of staying put out of responsibility to the place you happened to be born in.

I understand the arguments about deciding who can and can't come into a country. God knows there must be over a thousands threads on here dedicated to that subject.

I'm just curious about the ideas of people being taken rather than them choosing to move and of reasons why people should not be allowed to leave their birth country.

Jyst seems alien to me. My wife is an immigrant. I was an immigrant for several years. My kids were born in different countries to each other. Just wonder how it all applies when you get down to details rather than talking in broad vague terms such as borders, passports etc.
Report macarony July 8, 2019 10:45 PM BST
The needs of the host country and its citizens come first not the otherway around.
Nobody has the right to go where they like without permission from the intended host.
Report PorcupineorPineapple July 8, 2019 11:02 PM BST
Agreed up to a point. Though I think the word needs is a bit difficult to define in reality.

E.g., are businesses supposed to have vacancies, advertise for UK recruits, and upon failing to fill them, only then apply to the government for permission to advertise for foreigners? Do those foreigners then need  to apply for a work permit before being allowed to come here and fill the role?
Report macarony July 8, 2019 11:04 PM BST
If there was no immigrants what woyld business do? Train people for the job and offer better pay and conditions, they do little of either at the moment
Report PorcupineorPineapple July 8, 2019 11:13 PM BST
I think history says that the greater likelihood is that they'd fold.

Asking business owners to cut either their own personal profits or their share dividends so they can pay staff more is pretty much unheard of sadly. So the choice then is whether they pass those increased costs on to the consumers. Which either leads to lack of competitiveness against bigger firms or foreign firms not facing this bureaucracy or better placed to automate or to inflation.
Report macarony July 8, 2019 11:23 PM BST
The perils of open free trade sold to the people as a mirical that would bring hope and prosperity.
What its actualy done is made the very few very rich
Report PorcupineorPineapple July 8, 2019 11:26 PM BST
Capitalism baby.


But moaning about what the past has led us to doesn't solve what we're going to do in the future.
Report aaronh July 9, 2019 8:07 AM BST

Jul 8, 2019 -- 5:04PM, macarony wrote:


If there was no immigrants what woyld business do? Train people for the job and offer better pay and conditions, they do little of either at the moment


Haha good one

Report edy July 9, 2019 9:06 AM BST

Jul 8, 2019 -- 5:23PM, macarony wrote:


The perils of open free trade sold to the people as a mirical that would bring hope and prosperity.What its actualy done is made the very few very rich


Global Britain, Singapore-on-Thames, Completing the Thatcherite Revolution

Report sageform July 9, 2019 11:39 AM BST
Bigger manufacturing businesses will transfer to the countries where labour is cheaper but small ones will just fold.
Report tony57 July 9, 2019 11:46 AM BST
this is what makes me laugh at so called left leaning people who think the eu saves jobs and gives us a better life....the eu is built on anti democratic values..its built of federalism..the eu court has ruled against unions and for the big companies, they allow big business to transfer to other members for cheaper labour...it also destroys members from within..look at the greeks, the right won the election last week ..cos the left sold out to eu pressure ..the eu have what they want..the right back in power....all is now good.
Report sageform July 9, 2019 12:23 PM BST
The EU is not left or right, it is federalist or anti-federalist and the latter are ruthlessly put down as we will be if we end up remaining.
Report PorcupineorPineapple July 9, 2019 12:58 PM BST
The EU remains far from perfect.

If we were outside it and doing fine, I'm sure I'd be against joining it.

Similarly, if we were at the start of a Labour government and they proposed a sensible brexit plan that fully recognised the threats and had verifiable answers to them aswell as details of what would follow, then I'd probably vote to leave.


But neither of those things are the case.

I prefer to deal with reality, not ifs and buts.

Leaving the EU a couple of years ago was a bad idea.

Leaving it now, with no coherent plan of how or what to do next and walking out naked into a world ruled by Trump, Bannon and Putin and where our destiny is decided by Johnson, Farage, Banks and Oakeshott is an absolutely abysmal idea.

People need to stop thinking about what Labour would do if given the chance. Fact is the damage done in the next 6 months could take decades to repair. Forget about nationalizing industries we'll be at the mercy of world powers.
Report treetop July 10, 2019 8:19 PM BST
Or,the impending doom and gloom that doesn't materialise if we do leave will be forgotten about when we adjust to the Brave New World. The hysteria from Remainers just goes on and on,just get on with it.
Report impossible123 July 11, 2019 3:37 PM BST
Each year I detest "wasting" a positive net contribution to The EU to assist new under-developed member countries like Poland, Romania, Hungary, Bulgaria, Czech Rep, etc, to rejuvenate their economies in order to be competitive against us in the near future. We have contributed sufficiently already (minimum £8bn annually), and now with austerity still in place we are still a net contributor to The EU. As such I think it's a betrayal and a dis-service to the British people.

Why would we impose hardship and miseries to our fellow country people whilst assisting these new fellow Europeans towards a better life? The EU do not create a level playing field. And, if Mr Tusk a former Polish premier with "form" is already comparing us brexiteers to "hell" what could we expect him to say about us (or fellow European who'd contributed towards the wealth and progress of Poland eg France, Germany, Italy, Netherlands, Sweden) in the future when Poland is more prosperous and successful?

Does anyone believe when Poland become a net contributor to The EU they would still be a member of The EU, and accept political refugees into their country? Or will they decamp without a penny return/refund to The EU?
Report tony57 July 11, 2019 6:19 PM BST
great post .... also all the money the poles get for child support is sent home .
Report sageform July 13, 2019 8:38 PM BST
It is hard to separate the wish to leave the EU with the total mess that all politicians from UK and the EU have made of the negotiations. There is no doubt now that our economy will be hit what ever happens. If we stay in the EU will make our life very hard and dream up ways of punishing us and we will lose the chance to trade wit ht e rest of the world. If we leave the EU will make our life as hard as possible and dream up ways of punishing us. A clean break with goodwill on both sides was possible for the first 18 months but no longer.
Report politicspunter July 13, 2019 8:43 PM BST
Haven't given up yet but hope is fading rapidly.
Report impossible123 July 15, 2019 9:38 AM BST
Yep, it will be a non-amicable divorce given the toing and froing and longevity this has taken - a point of no return, I'm a afraid. To stay inside the "headless" federal monster EU led by inexperienced low quality European leaders is not an option either in the long term.
Report edy July 15, 2019 11:52 AM BST
Why would we impose hardship and miseries to our fellow country people whilst assisting these new fellow Europeans towards a better life? The EU do not create a level playing field.

Actually, it does between countries. That countries like the UK, as one potential way to minimise inequality within the respective countries, don't choose to tax the wealthy properly, and to enable mass-scale corporate tax evasion, is not within the authority of the EU.
Report impossible123 July 15, 2019 12:28 PM BST
^^
I think you have misused your argument, why? Different countries - dependent of the presiding government - do adjust their taxation policies to facilitate their needs and (potential) achievements accordingly eg The Guernsey Islands/Tax heavens.

One entity creates/has created wealth, the other consumes/still consuming wealth courtesy of the net contributors to the EU budget (Britain one of the select 5/6). Would these contributions not be better served administered constructively, strategically and accordingly elsewhere eg the poorest countries in the rest of the world? Why purely on geography alone? And, mainly on countries with little historical connections to Britain.

The UK along with a few EU long term members have been propping up The EU for a long while now with little to show for it; a smaller EU is acceptable, but 22 out of 27 non-contributors are just too taxing and a burden to bear on the other 5 member states, I firmly believe.
Report edy July 15, 2019 12:38 PM BST
The UK along with a few EU long term members have been propping up The EU for a long while now with little to show for it

I've repeatedly seen you state how Poland would/could potentially become as prosperous and successful as the UK, or even more. That'd be a lot to show for. Other countries and their infrastructure have similarly developed at a far more rapid pace due to EU membership than they very likely would've outside of it.
Report sageform July 15, 2019 1:05 PM BST
Trouble is that UK is trying to prop up the economies of several Commonwealth countries as well with limited success. France and Spain have some colonies to worry about as well but the other EU countries don't have anything like that to drain their resources.
Report edy July 15, 2019 1:19 PM BST
Hey hey now, Germany was huge in the age of colonization. We had what is now known as Micronesia and stuff.
Report impossible123 July 15, 2019 1:49 PM BST
A small family with the same level of income will have a higher standard of living than a larger family with an identical income in the short to middle term, all things being equal eg no external factors influencing the spending eg health and education - that's fact. However, given a period of time (could be after a generation or two) that could change when members of the larger family could collectively earn more than those in the small family.

What I'm saying is,...can the UK afford to sustain these net annual contribution to The EU much longer without incurring further detriment to their own citizens? A larger expenditure will be needed too to cater for the (ever) increasing population of citizens from abroad with little growth in GDP.

There are so many more new EU member states eg post Poland that will need funding to grow, but can we (along with the other 5) sustain the same generosity for another 15/20 years? As an example (just an example and many more pressing ones) some of our elderly are having to sell whatever assets they have accumulated thro' hard work over their working years to fund their old age - is that acceptable?

I'm for The EU however, not when the proliferation of new under/less developed member states that require assistance in funding in a short period of time though.
Report edy July 15, 2019 2:00 PM BST
As an example (just an example and many more pressing ones) some of our elderly are having to sell whatever assets they have accumulated thro' hard work over their working years to fund their old age - is that acceptable?

No, but that isn't something closely related to EU budget funding. It does contribute, because obviously it is money not directly spent in Britain, but it's first and foremost the symptom of domestic policies and decisions. There is plenty enough money flying around the UK. More than plenty. The national government just chooses to not tax&redistribute properly (among a few other things). Something I don't see changing when Brexit has been completed. Brexit is, after all, the elite's pet project to complete the Thatcherite Revolution.
Report impossible123 July 15, 2019 2:28 PM BST
As I stated clearly that was just an example, and my statement could be viewed as such by those (nit myself) presently contributing or have contributed towards the economy and country; just too few EU member states contributing towards the majority not contributing or able to contribute for a while yet.

ASEAN (Association of South East Asia Nation), Australia (?) and Japan (?), Middle East (?), North America(?) America ?), South America (?), Africa (?), etc - why do they not combine and become another large political and trading entity like The EU to compete and exert (influence) if The EU idealogy was deemed advantageous, and (possibly) superior? And, doe one see other less rich nations of ASEAN contributing towards the growth of other members in that region?

Can one imagine the above scenario repeated? We could have EU mk1/mk2/mk3/mk4, etc; the world would be a powder keg, and easily become unstable, I believe.
Report PorcupineorPineapple July 15, 2019 3:56 PM BST
Surely the unprecedented time of peace on the European continent suggests that countries working more closely together makes the region less unstable, not more.
Report lfc1971 July 15, 2019 4:05 PM BST
1815 - 1914 was the longest period of peace , thanks to the U.K.
1945 - ? Thanks to America and Britain
Report lfc1971 July 15, 2019 4:07 PM BST
So it’s not the longest period of peace , and not unprecedented
Report lfc1971 July 15, 2019 4:12 PM BST
It was the power of the British Empire that gave Europe almost a 100 years of peace after 1815
Report lfc1971 July 15, 2019 4:15 PM BST
It was given the name pax Britannia . a golden age for many European countries
Report lfc1971 July 15, 2019 4:23 PM BST
The British had unchallenged dominance after 1815 , a time of optimism , peace , economic prosperity , technological scientific and cultural innovations
Report lfc1971 July 15, 2019 4:26 PM BST
Many nations experienced a golden age know as the Belle Époque

no need to say thanks
Report edy July 15, 2019 4:28 PM BST
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_conflicts_in_Europe#19th_century

.
Report jollyswagman July 15, 2019 4:29 PM BST
1815–1817 Second Serbian Uprising
1817–1864 Russian conquest of the Caucasus
1821–1832 Greek War of Independence
1821 Wallachian uprising
1823 French invasion of Spain
1826–1828 Russo-Persian War
1827 War of the Malcontents
1828–1829 Russo-Turkish War
1828–1834 Liberal Wars
1830 Ten Days' Campaign (following the Belgian Revolution)
1830–1831 November Uprising
1831 Canut revolts
1831–1832 Bosnian Uprising
1831–1836 Tithe War
1832 War in the Vendée and Chouannerie of 1832
1832 June Rebellion
1833–1839 First Carlist War
1833–1839 Albanian Revolts of 1833–39
1843–1844 Albanian Revolt of 1843–44
1846 Galician slaughter
1846–1849 Second Carlist War
1847 Albanian Revolt of 1847
1847 Sonderbund War
1848–1849 Hungarian Revolution and War of Independence
1848–1851 First Schleswig War
1848–1849 First Italian War of Independence
1853–1856 Crimean War
1854 Epirus Revolt of 1854
1858 Mahtra War
1859 Second Italian War of Independence
1861–62 Montenegrin–Ottoman War (1861–62)
1863–1864 January Uprising
1864 Second Schleswig War
1866 Austro-Prussian War
1866–1869 Cretan Revolt
1866 Third Italian War of Independence
1867 **** Rising
1870–1871 Franco-Prussian War
1872–1876 Third Carlist War
1873–1874 Cantonal Revolution
1875–77 Herzegovina Uprising (1875–77)
1876–78 Serbian–Ottoman War (1876–78)
1876–78 Montenegrin–Ottoman War (1876–78)
1877–1878 Russo-Turkish War
1878 Epirus Revolt of 1878
1885 Serbo-Bulgarian War
1897 Greco-Turkish War


1903 Ilinden–Preobrazhenie Uprising
1904–1908 Macedonian Struggle
1904–1905 Russo-Japanese War
1905 Łódź insurrection
1905 Revolution of 1905
1906–1908 Theriso revolt
1907 1907 Romanian Peasants' Revolt
1910 Albanian Revolt of 1910
1910 5 October 1910 revolution
1910 Portuguese Monarchist Civil War
1911 Albanian Revolt of 1911
1911–1912 Italo-Turkish War
1912–1913 Balkan Wars
1912–1913 First Balkan War
1913 Second Balkan War
1913 Tikveš Uprising
1913 Ohrid–Debar Uprising
1914 Peasant Revolt in Albania

incredibly peaceful in europe, who would deny that? Scared
Report PorcupineorPineapple July 15, 2019 4:33 PM BST
Yep, cheers jolly.

Did a quick wiki and that "longest period of peace" might need to hand it's medal back.
Report lfc1971 July 15, 2019 4:46 PM BST
1944-56 guerrilla war in the Baltic states
1947-62 Romanian anti communist resistance movement
1953    uprising in east germany
1956    uprising in Poznan
1956    Hungarian Revolution
1956-62 operation harvest
1959-2011 Basque conflict
1961-1967 South Tyrol insurgency
1967     Greek coup d,etat
1968     Warsaw pact invasion of Czechoslovakia
1968-98  N Ireland troubles
1974     Turkish invasion of Cyprus
1974     Carnation revolution
1976-presCorsican insurgency

1989     Romanian revolution

1990-91 soviet attacks on lithuania

1991-95 Croatian war of independence
1992    Tranistria War
1992-95 Bosnian war
1998-99 Kosovo war
..........
Report lfc1971 July 15, 2019 4:48 PM BST
and there is more, incredibly peaceful in Europe since WW2
oh and I haven't included the muslim  terrorist atrocities and others
Report lfc1971 July 15, 2019 5:06 PM BST
we can look at conflicts since 2000 if you like later

so no, the longest time of @ relative peace if you like was 1815-1914

and yes the relative peace after ww2 is not unprecedented
Report edy July 15, 2019 5:13 PM BST

Jul 15, 2019 -- 10:46AM, lfc1971 wrote:


1944-56 guerrilla war in the Baltic states1947-62 Romanian anti communist resistance movement1953    uprising in east germany1956    uprising in Poznan1956    Hungarian Revolution1956-62 operation harvest1959-2011 Basque conflict1961-1967 South Tyrol insurgency1967     Greek coup d,etat1968     Warsaw pact invasion of Czechoslovakia1968-98  N Ireland troubles1974     Turkish invasion of Cyprus1974     Carnation revolution1976-presCorsican insurgency1989     Romanian revolution1990-91 soviet attacks on lithuania1991-95 Croatian war of independence1992    Tranistria War1992-95 Bosnian war1998-99 Kosovo war..........


How many armed conflicts between EU members on that list?

Report treetop July 15, 2019 5:16 PM BST
Most of those posted represent internal unrest rather than wars. Britain had a massive influence for good in 19th century. America has done the heavy lifting since 1945.
Report Injera July 15, 2019 5:16 PM BST
Highly regrettable that Tony received abuse for starting this thread.

The brain drain of Eastern Europe is a crisis created by the globalists who care nothing for the less well off worth countries in Europe.

These stats from Tony's link should shame the EU and all who support it:

Since Latvia joined the EU, it has lost one-fifth of its population.

Romania, a country that according to one organisation is due to see the most drastic population decline, has seen over three million leave the country since it joined the EU in 2007.

It lost half of its doctors between 2009 and 2015, the vast majority to better-paid employ in the richer hospitals and surgeries of Western Europe, leaving its health service poorly staffed and on the brink of collapse.
Report jollyswagman July 15, 2019 5:24 PM BST
the boer war (concentration camps how wonderful), the opium wars (forcing the chinese to allow opium to be sold in their country how wonderful), etc, etc, etc. there are always wars and britain as a country with an empire was involved in lots of them.

i fear the history taught in britain about its empire is somewhat different to how the countries who 'benefited' from this 'amazing largesse' would view things. exporting food from ireland during the potato famine, was that a massive influence for good in the 19th century?
Report lfc1971 July 15, 2019 5:24 PM BST
edy we are talking about war and conflict in Europe
Peace was achieved for a century 1815-1914 by the at that time unrivalled power and influence of Britain

And after 1945 by the unrivalled power and influence of America and Britain

That is the fundamental reality
Report lfc1971 July 15, 2019 5:32 PM BST
many mistakes were made by Britain of course  jollyswagman
But in the main over that course Britain ( and in its time America)
were a tremendous force for good
Report lfc1971 July 15, 2019 5:50 PM BST
But it’s too much trouble to run the world.  Now we want to retire behind our garden gates fearful of the rest of the world
And who can blame us ?
Report edy July 15, 2019 5:55 PM BST
nobody. Germany's done that for the past 70 or so years.
Report unitedbiscuits July 15, 2019 6:08 PM BST
Euro-sceptics hark back to a century when Britain maintained its ascendancy by a policy of divide and rule in Europe. It led to many wars and much loss of life. For this reason alone, it is imperative that we take the side of the EU over that of the UK until Brexit is killed off.
Report PorcupineorPineapple July 15, 2019 7:01 PM BST
Captain Injera,  should these Latvians be trapped and refused the opportunity to get a better life for themselves elsewhere?

Do you think we should do the same? Should James Dyson be too big a talent to lose and be told he's not allowed to leave?

Curious to know.
Report impossible123 July 15, 2019 7:30 PM BST
What would happen if every region/land mass in the world similar to The EU decide to form a confederated state of their own? How could that be more stable? Presently, in some parts of the Mediterranean countries are being divided ie downsized politically discreetly to make that country (smaller), less powerful and easier to manage or deal with by foreign/external power.
Report PorcupineorPineapple July 15, 2019 8:14 PM BST
Well I'd say the evidence of the EU and the historically incredible peace in Europe over the last 60 years or so would suggest that guess is baseless.
Report PorcupineorPineapple July 15, 2019 8:14 PM BST
Well I'd say the evidence of the EU and the historically incredible peace in Europe over the last 60 years or so would suggest that guess is baseless.
Report edy July 16, 2019 7:00 AM BST

Jul 15, 2019 -- 1:30PM, impossible123 wrote:


What would happen if every region/land mass in the world similar to The EU decide to form a confederated state of their own? How could that be more stable? Presently, in some parts of the Mediterranean countries are being divided ie downsized politically discreetly to make that country (smaller), less powerful and easier to manage or deal with by foreign/external power.


That's another reason why being in a block of countries, or being closely aligned to it, might be advantageous compared to being Airstrip One. A block that you are a member of, one that amplifies your interests instead of you being the playball of foreign forces, being a vassal state to the USA, Russia, China, potentially one day India, potentially being the showroom for their latest military technology and having their proxy wars having waged on your grounds.

Report lfc1971 July 16, 2019 7:39 AM BST
It is more advantageous to be a smaller country both within the EU , and outside the EU
And Britain being one of the bigger eu countries in Britain’s case it is much better to be outside
Report lfc1971 July 16, 2019 7:48 AM BST
What you have to understand is that the size of the US , or China , or Russia or the EU is not disadvantageous to smaller countries such as Norway , or Ireland , or Switzerland , or Japan , or Australia , or the U.K.
it is a very great advantage to the smaller countries , the bigger have the heavy lifting to do to create jobs , deal with immigration , free movement , increased costs for healthcare , infrastructure .....
Report lfc1971 July 16, 2019 7:52 AM BST
You see within the EU it is Britain that has had the burden of doing the heavy lifting
well times up
Report unitedbiscuits July 16, 2019 9:31 AM BST
lfc1971 paints rather an attractive picture of a country prepared to divest itself of its responsibilities. First it must lose its illusions. The first symbolic move should be to give up its seat on the UN Security Council and offer it to Germany. Then we can give up Trident. Then we can eradicate the financial services industry from the Square Mile and turn it into an exciting urban green-space. Houses would become very cheap, and England would become a favoured holiday destination where tourists would drive by the "Inselaffen" with the windows closed for safety reasons. After an horrific murder was linked to online images, 52% voted to restrict unauthorised access to the internet. The will of the people. The Government Of National Unity would be a movable feast and the House Of Commons taken by Greece to sit alongside the Acropolis. 

"Humble but happy," would be the motto, the motto of the people.
Report tony57 July 16, 2019 1:32 PM BST
thank you INJERA
   you get the the OP....
Report treetop July 16, 2019 2:44 PM BST
Ironically tony, I would have thought that your point should be supported by international socialism rather than encouraging wholesale theft of their skills.
Report PorcupineorPineapple July 16, 2019 2:55 PM BST
Hopefully inj makes it back and has a go at answering my question.
Report macarony July 16, 2019 4:41 PM BST
So some people are happy to be sent small cog in a big machine?
Report Injera July 16, 2019 5:03 PM BST
I'm here PP! Apologies for the delay.

Not keen on your word 'trapped'. Latvia is a lovely country and it would be a shame if the brain drain contunued to its detriment.

I would love to see less prosperous nations thrive. I can't see how that can happen if all the best people leave.

treetop's point just below is of the bullseye variety. Our Labour Party championing socialism AND the EU's free movement policy is a head scratcher.
Report Injera July 16, 2019 5:04 PM BST
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/may/30/romanians-uk-tragedy-h...

One notorious example is the healthcare system: tens of thousands of Romanian health workers now practise abroad, including 3,775 for the NHS, leaving Romanians in severely understaffed and underfunded clinics.

The migrants are usually the young and active, whose energy and idealism is therefore lost to Romanian society, economy and politics. Right now, it is badly needed.

Any emerging political force that is serious about improving the situation must find ways to stop this exodus. The 400,000 Romanians in the UK are a great loss for Romania, above all.

- This is tragic Sad
Report edy July 16, 2019 5:10 PM BST
I can't shake the feeling that one day people are saying that EU migrants are young and active, the brightest brains around - and another day they'll say they're leeches that live on benefits and are a great detriment to their host countries.
Report jollyswagman July 16, 2019 5:11 PM BST
cognitive dissonance edy, someone doing a phd on the subject would have a field day on chit chat and politics Plain
Report unitedbiscuits July 16, 2019 5:14 PM BST
Surely not..

The very real concern Leavers have for the rest of EU citizens strikes the heart..
Report Injera July 16, 2019 5:33 PM BST
Just quoting the Guardian edy!
Report lfc1971 July 16, 2019 5:39 PM BST
Romania doesn’t miss the people who leave , neither does Poland
They’re worried that they might return
Report lfc1971 July 16, 2019 5:41 PM BST
Let me tell you a strange little fact of life , no one is missed
Report PorcupineorPineapple July 16, 2019 7:52 PM BST
Cheers inj, but what do you plan to do to the best people if they do want to leave.

Let's call it free movement, not forced movement.

Say 50 surgeons have left for better paid jobs with better prospects for their families elsewhere. It could be from a small town to the capital. Or they could have gone to Gdansk or Glasgow. Fact is they applied for a job, got it and chose to accept it.

Now a 51st sees a job advert and fancies applying.

Do you stop him from doing so? Do you say it's too big a loss and you're not allowed?
Report Injera July 16, 2019 8:48 PM BST
Very good question PP.

I think the responsibility is on the more prosperous nation to:

1) Train enough surgeons from their own education system so the vacancies don't exist.

Thus encouraging the surgeons from the less well off nation to build up their healthcare system. Sounds a bit utopian but....

True globalism is to do whatever it takes to facilitate global prosperity and not to 'give up' on poorer nations. We greatly harm 3rd world countries by welcoming their best people to come to us.

African doctors and nurses working within our NHS is a travesty for Africa and a stain on our international approach to development.
Report eric_morris July 16, 2019 8:50 PM BST
Agreed and all to save our grubby self centred businessmen from footing the costs of training their own staff.
Report tony57 July 16, 2019 9:48 PM BST
again injera ..a take my hat off to you....when i've said the same thing im accused of being a racist, i can't think of the other countries  cos i want to leave the eu...Cry
Report PorcupineorPineapple July 16, 2019 10:54 PM BST
Now you're getting somewhere inj.


You're recognising the fault lies in domestic policies not EU ones. In our case, a decade of ruinous austerity where training and staff pay has been stripped to the bone and conditions and pressure have seen staff leaving the NHS and teaching on an unprecedented scale.

Good man.
Report impossible123 July 16, 2019 11:50 PM BST
^^
Our doctors and nurses moved abroad too for respect, and a higher standard of living - is that a brain drain too? We are short of these two professions in the UK. Of course not, they are doing out of choice.

Similarly, the Irish who are here instead of returning to Ireland are here by choice not necessity - it was in the past; soon the same can be said about the present Eastern European too.

If the UK did not have to fund most of the new EU member states thro' our annual contribution money spent could have been used to train and pay NHS staff a higher wage, is that not correct?
Report aaronh July 17, 2019 8:22 AM BST
Is Globalist/globalism just used for those who cant bring themselves to say and critique capitalism and prefer to blame shady figures rather than a system?
Report sageform July 17, 2019 8:41 AM BST
Plenty of people from Australia come her as well. They are probably moving to a lower standard of living on the whole but prefer to be within a 100 miles of the next town. There is also a constant brain drain within the UK from countryside to town. It is all part of the human instinct to explore.
Report lfc1971 July 17, 2019 8:46 AM BST
Anyone doctors or nurses or teachers etc who want to leave the U.K. and can find another country to take them of course let them go that’s fine
For everyone that leaves can be replaced 100 times over
Oh and doctors and nurses and teachers pay is too high
Report lfc1971 July 17, 2019 8:50 AM BST
And you can forget about a brain drain , almost without exception someone can be replaced , in every profession or job or walk of life by 100 or 1000 .....other people
Report sageform July 17, 2019 9:11 AM BST
Depends how long the training takes. In the case of doctors, they need to choose scientific subjects at A level and then have at least 7 years training after that so a new initiative would take 9 years to take effect. You could of course incentivise recently retired doctors to return to work in the short term.
Report flushgordon1 July 17, 2019 9:44 AM BST
We were told that there would be 13,000 eastern European migrants per year , there were 13,000 per week on some occasions.
Report sageform July 17, 2019 10:01 AM BST
so long as we remain in the EU there could be a million a week and there is nothing we could do about it.
Report impossible123 July 17, 2019 10:53 AM BST
A friend of mine, a junior doctor, in her best year was remunerated about £44k - less than that of a Tube driver; seeing as many as 50/55 clients a day; over 100 hrs a week - 50/50 patients/clerical); some clients are abusive ; ete. And, a few of her friends have emigrated to Canada, New Zealand, Australia and Americawhere they are more valued and respected.

Now, my friend is a qualified psychiatrist after another 6 years of studying and passing requisite exams earning far less during this period, why? The schedule and workload as a psychiatrist is much lighter; she could not emigrate because of family connections otherwise, she'd add to that stats.
Report PorcupineorPineapple July 17, 2019 11:10 AM BST
We know 2 teachers who are quitting nect week. Just had enough. Pay not great and the pressure and bull they have to put up with is just not worth it, so they both say.

We've had at least a decade of this. We have a government just not interested in medium to long term investment.

It's a disgrace and it's only been free movement that's allowed the Tories to cover it up and blame immigration instead.
Report lfc1971 July 17, 2019 11:17 AM BST
Too many females becoming doctors , that is part of the problem they don’t want to put the hrs in
Report lfc1971 July 17, 2019 11:18 AM BST
There is no point letting the population increase by millions ,
And then complain about the stresses on the NHS
Report Dr Crippen July 17, 2019 11:26 AM BST
As tony says - how do these countries get on that we're pinching all their skilled workers from?

They must be on their knees by now. What are they training camps for the rich EU countries?
Report Dr Crippen July 17, 2019 11:31 AM BST
The Afghanistan President/PM or whatever, said on the BBC that we shouldn't waste our pity on anyone from his country fleeing to the UK.
He said we use American billions to train our workers so they can rebuild our country, then as soon as they're qualified they clear off to the EU.
He said they're economic migrants not refugees.
Report sageform July 17, 2019 12:38 PM BST
Private sector pay continues to increase faster than the public sector can afford to pay so it is inevitable that there will be a problem of staff retention.
Report Injera July 17, 2019 4:35 PM BST
The NHS is a ticking timebomb. It cannot cope unless we double the number of hospitals and other clinics.

Ok that's a pure guess but with an ever ageing population plus net migration at 250k, it won't be a bad guess..

The question is, who pays for it? At the last election the Lib Dems had the honesty to say they would put a penny on income tax for the NHS. That kind of honesty got them nowhere.
Report impossible123 July 17, 2019 5:18 PM BST
lfc1971, I'll not even consider answering your (11:17am) post - it's so old fashion and backward.

The UK cannot afford to sustain our level of annual contribution to The EU anymore; post Brexit Germany, France, Italy and Holland will probably have to take up the slack as a result of our departure unless The EU give membership to Russia or China.

China, Russia and India have one thing in common and an advantage over Britain ie an abundance cheap(er) labour with much lesser union influence; USA is living beyond their means thus sooner or later reality will be upon them, and possibly their economy could implode - they owed $trillions to China. On the other hand the citizens of China and India like Japan are savers, and not living beyond their means.
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