Shamima Begum: “I’m willing to change.”

If a crime has been committed then take her through the courts in the normal manner IF she turns up using the normal channels.

Why havn't I heard anyone suggesting she's put in front of a Syrian court, seems obvious to me, please enlighten ?

Feb 22, 2019 -- 9:34AM, InsiderTrader wrote:

If a crime has been committed then take her through the courts in the normal manner IF she turns up using the normal channels.

Good post.

Feb 22, 2019 -- 10:12AM, yajyaj wrote:

Why havn't I heard anyone suggesting she's put in front of a Syrian court, seems obvious to me, please enlighten ?

Probably because Syria might not have the correct structures in place for the time being. Some there want countries to take their fighters back too.

Cheers, that being the case, pay her board and lodgings in Guantanamo or similar until Syria gets sorted ......simples

Natural inclination is to say stuff her, she's made her bed. But this is about more than that. Do the government of the day simply have powers to cancel your rights and force you to live elsewhere. She has Bangladeshi heritage so we just force the problem on to them? What if we were to get an anti-semitic party in power, do we see the law of precedent used and Jews being forced to leave for Israel because they also have dual nationality.

Fact is, she's British and she's our problem. Difficulty though is investigating and then proving her guilty of any crimes. Otherwise do we just let her back in as if nothing's happened? One thing though, I'd get her to sort out getting back here or getting to a UK embassy (probably Turkey). I wouldn't risk a single British troop or diplomat being sent there to bring her back.


Wider issue though is that this is just a Javid play for PM. He knows that legally he's in the wrong. He's playing to the gallery; he'll happily take it to the courts and be defeated. But it'll show that he's tough on immigration and terrorism and the usual crowd will lap that up. That's all that's really happening here.

What if we were to get an anti-semitic party in power, do we see the law of precedent used and Jews being forced to leave for Israel because they also have dual nationality.


Wasn't necessarily referencing Labour, just that I'd read elsewhere of this possibility and thought to share it.


Then I read this just now.

Just hours after Jeremy Corbyn said of ISIS bride Shamima Begum: “Taking somebody’s citizenship away is not the right thing to do. I think she should be brought back,” Guido can reveal the letter from John McDonnell to then Home Secretary Theresa May in July 2014 challenging her to strip any British citizens who served in the Israeli Defence Force of their British citizenship. McDonnell writes:

“Will you be warning any British citizens considering engagement with the IDF that, in line with established British Government practice (e.g. the deprivation of British citizenship from, to date, at least 40 UK passport holders who have been involved in the Syrian civil war), such engagement may put their British citizenship in jeopardy?”

apologies for it being from Guido (google sent me there. Must be only the second time I've been on the page.) But bloody hell.

What if we were to get an anti-semitic party in power, do we see the law of precedent used and Jews being forced to leave for Israel because they also have dual nationality.


Wasn't necessarily referencing Labour, just that I'd read elsewhere of this possibility and thought to share it.


Then I read this just now.

Just hours after Jeremy Corbyn said of ISIS bride Shamima Begum: “Taking somebody’s citizenship away is not the right thing to do. I think she should be brought back,” Guido can reveal the letter from John McDonnell to then Home Secretary Theresa May in July 2014 challenging her to strip any British citizens who served in the Israeli Defence Force of their British citizenship. McDonnell writes:

“Will you be warning any British citizens considering engagement with the IDF that, in line with established British Government practice (e.g. the deprivation of British citizenship from, to date, at least 40 UK passport holders who have been involved in the Syrian civil war), such engagement may put their British citizenship in jeopardy?”

apologies for it being from Guido (google sent me there. Must be only the second time I've been on the page.) But bloody hell.

Pineapple, you make your points well, I'm just a little concerned at the "usual crowd" comment , I suspect the "usual crowd" is the majority of the British people

no, I'd say it's really not the majority. Not by a long chalk. But it is a significant number, emboldened by years of predatory politics and media campaigns designed to divert people's attention from fat cats asset stripping the country and looking to blame chavs and immigrants instead.

Fair point, if it were the majority would you still suggest we HAVE to follow the legal position ?, seriously I really like to try and understand the view of others

I'm not a fan of populism to be honest. The public's view can be (fairly easily) manipulated and there's quite a big herd mentality and not much nuance. You see the frequent moans of criminals being let off or not dealt with harshly enough but don't get to hear the other side where judges can explain that the laws stipulate the sentence and his hands are fairly tied. We also don't hear the knock on effects.

As with my example above, you can't just cherry pick one person at random and decide to ignore the law just for her. It doesn't work like that. If a populist government decided to change the law so a person could be deprived of their nationality and right to live here because of something, unless that reason was incredibly specific (and history tells us it wouldn't be) then the chances are it could then be used again for more nefarious reasons. Look at what's happening elsewhere in the world.

The point is the law is supposed to be above whims and currently popular opinions. They have to work in tandem with international law and various treaties with other countries for one thing. But our parliament and judges are supposed to be experts in their field charged with considering these properly having weighed up all available evidence, not just knee jerking because it'll win some votes. Granted some MPs aren't that way inclined (see Javid, above) but that's how it's supposed to work, and by and large it does.

I'd want much more investigation and evidence into something to change the law rather than an emotive decision personally.

It’s quite simple , if she has dual nationality don’t allow her to return , if she doesn’t then she can’t be stopped
Abu Hamzas son was caught trying to sneek back into Britain and stopped , he has Moroccan citizenship and doesn’t want to go there , that’s good
He’s not getting into Britain

And the tories should make clear at the next election that Corbyn wants these anti British vermin to be allowed back into Britain
Make sure people know who they are voting for

see my post on QT thread on chit chat,sums it up imho

Thanks Pineapple, very thoughtful answer, I'm afraid I am very simple, I don't believe there is any greater authority than the majority of the people, if my view happens to be populist then so be it, I don't follow but obviously there are plenty that do

if begum was jihaDI JOHN,ONE OF THE BEETLES, KING OF CLUBS,ACE OFSPADES ETC,and bangledesh said they were going to take him and prosecute him, javid,mrs  may,telegraph ,mail,sun,millions of the public would be demanding we went to court to fight to bring him here for trial,the sun would be handing out noose,s demanding return of the death penalty, javid,may would be donning flak jackets flying out of bries Norton within hrs waving union jacks to Syria to bring them back

Will McDonnell be held to account for this by Corbyn?

Agree with Pineapple completely.

Due process and the law should be followed however unpalatable that may be. Making up laws or changing them on the back of a single issue/case rarely ends well.

Where i disagree with pineapple is around Javid. I agree he is attempting to seem tough but think this will backfire on him he will ultimately have to back down on this one. Competence in leaders is a key quality and he isnt displaying it here.

Along with our joke of a defence secretary, and transport minister who can't keep things moving this government has got to be one of the poorest in this nations history.

The Labour Party don’t want to follow due process of the law , they want to allow her back in
The tories and the home secretary are happy to follow due process and the law
And keep her as others such as hanzas son  out
That’s the difference

The UK let the mother in and then let the father in.

She was born in the UK. It appears the father was not around much. Here mother died very suddenly from cancer in the months leading up to her getting radicalized and leaving. She would have been extremely vulnerable at that point. She was basically groomed. We cannot ignore grooming victims because of how they turn out.

We really need to find out what the process was for this to happen. Who did it and how? Were family members involved? Was the wider local community involved? Or was it all online?

This is the case in the press. The reality is there have been hundreds of actual fighters coming back. The stories were not as newsworthy so not in the press.

No there have been hundreds of terrorists coming back because they are British and we can’t stop them

You know guys, I don't post on these forums anymore because I find some of the postings on various subjects juvenile, nasty, ignorant and downright ANTISEMITIC. I find that more and more postings are particularly offensive. I hereby state that I find Paddy Power/ Betfair GUILTY of condoning antisemitism by allowing certain posters to continue posting while banning anyone who remotely mentions the Religion of Peace. The reason I have broken my  silence, which will continue after this posting, is to mention the total ignorance of Porcupine evidenced by his statement "Jews being forced to leave for Israel because they also have dual nationality." I have in all my time on these forums never ever read such drivel. I welcome being informed as to exactly how many of the approx. 260,000 Jews in the UK have dual nationality with Israel. Just when I read total cr*p on here and think I can't read anything worse, something even more ridiculous crops up. They might choose to leave for Israel because of The Right of Return, but dual nationality for most, NEVER. By the way Porcupine, you are NOT one of the posters who I accuse of antisemitism. I have been on these forums for over 15 year. They used to be entertaining, sometimes informative, sometimes educational. Now they have become nasty, offensive and total SH1T. The so called moderators are banning mainly the wrong people.

That's my rant. Good luck to my friends and those who don't like me can just do one. I will not respond to any comment on this but will report any offensive response. I pride myself on NOT ever reporting anyone, but I am quite prepared to start now!

Apols slicer. Please substitute right to return in place of dual nationality in my original post. I hope you accept my mistake was a mistake of terminology rather than deliberate attempt to provoke or discriminate.

Porky has funny values.
Sticking up for Begum but not a shred of sympathy for James Bulgers mum Denise telling her to "just get on with it".

It's time the UK took responsibility for what happened to this then young girl, a UK citizen radicalized by most probably residents of the UK.

If she has information and she must, then it needs to be extracted.

If she has committed offences against the UK well then she should face British justice.

Dual citizenship is a cop out and the innocent child is deserving of British justice also.

It's very cowardly and distasteful indeed how the British government have acted.

Hide the truth and pass the buck.

Disgusting.

"sticking up for begum"



To be fair, that's not even trolling. Just a blatant lie.


aka, you sir are an utter whopper.

SAS would do us all a favour by going into the Syrian camp and eliminating her.

I'm not sticking up for her at all.

Can you not read.

peckerdunne
It's time the UK took responsibility for what happened to this then young girl,

So what happened to her? She left this country to join ISIS and you want the UK to take responsibility for that? Beggarts belief,.

if you replace "young girl" with "young **** of a girl" still changes nothing.

I've asked you "what happened to this girl"
You're answer doesn't deal with this.

ie What happened to her that the UK needs to take responsibility for?

She was a British minor radicalized in Britain but that was not my only point.

You are being selective.

Her parents played a part in her radicalization.
taking her to anti British marches certainly contributed.

I think she should face trial in Syria but whatever happens we should stand firm and deny her access to the UK.

I disagree personally..If proved guilty of a crime she should serve time in Britain just the same as say an IRA bomber.

My family live in London and i have no love for the religion of peace.

more to be gained by letting her back imho

Great Britain has a moral and legal responsibility to the young lady in question, and it is not for the Home Secretary du jour to be making it up as he goes along, particularly when she has been found guilty of no crime whatsoever.

Some very wise words from PorP on this thread, the law is the law and should not be bent for populist advantage.

Jihadi Jack wants to come back now as well, don't let him

By the way this girl is her families responsibility, her father and the rest of the family can leave Britain as well, don't expect any help thanks

"the law is the law",if I have to accept this with NO exceptional circumstances then surely its time for "a sentence is a sentence" with no exceptions !

the law is the law and should not be bent for populist advantage.

Legal advice will have been sought and taken.

Just because the Bangladeshi government stated she'd not be welcome there or she was not a Bangladeshi citizen or held a Bangladeshi passport how could we be certain that was the truth? This young woman, when asked by the reporter if she'd dual citizenship, she refused to answer.

Feb 23, 2019 -- 10:34PM, impossible123 wrote:

Just because the Bangladeshi government stated she'd not be welcome there or she was not a Bangladeshi citizen or held a Bangladeshi passport how could we be certain that was the truth? This young woman, when asked by the reporter if she'd dual citizenship, she refused to answer.

This begum episode is reminding me of the refugee crisis. I kept telling people here on the forum and in person as well, that German authorities were bringing in refugees as soon as they entered Austrian territory. Similarly, the Italian navy was busy 'rescuing' migrants and bringing them to Europe. At that time, all you'd hear from people was 'the Koran tells them to take over infidel land', the koran tells them to breed like crazy, its in their culture to kill etc etc etc. Obviously it became apparent later that this was a planned scheme, but when it was happening people were expertly kept busy, because the govts know it won't take much hardwork to convince people to hate islam.

The same thing is happening here. Begum was born in UK, to parents who were UK citizens.

If she claimed bangla nationality before claiming british, the british govt should have her bangla ID number.

If she claimed british nationality first and then bangla, she couldn't have done it without the authority of the british government. Which is why the british government should know exactly when she got her bangla nationality.

Yet all we hear from the home sec is that he can revoke her nationality because she has dual nationality, conveniently ignoring the details of her bangla nationality.

The public response is as stupid as it was during the refugee crisis. Blame the girl, curse IS, judge her whether she really is sorry or not etc etc. Yet the one thing that should solve the issue, namely government's record of her dual nationality, is not even mentioned!!!

@impossible123 I can understand your reluctance to not believe the bangla authorities. But a country cannot prove that someone isn't their citizen. Its just not possible. What do you expect the banglas to do? Provide you with a list of all bangla citizens to prove miss begums name isn't there?

This is purely a legal matter(Even if she launched nuclear missiles towards England, her right to return cannot be taken away from her, except in case of dual nationality. So her joining IS is completely irrelevant to her right to return). Anyone remotely familiar with int law or matters of immigration can easily see how Sajid is fooling his people.

Countries around the world go to great lengths to sign extradition treaties with other countries, so that they can try anyone who is a threat to them in their own courts. But in this case, its the opposite. The criminal wants to come back, but the govt doesn't want her. To some extent, it is understandable why. But when the drama has reached such a level, surely the easier route is to bring her back and try her? Or is that the government doesn't trust its courts?

Her husband is Dutch, if she returns surely we must take him also (if he's not in prison), it wouldn't be right to split a lovely young family

I actually just read the thread description and realize the thread is just to knock yourself out

You guys can continue discussing her actions but for the love of God, try to understand that her actions have no bearing on her legal right to be allowed back into the UK. Thanks.

, when we are sure of her legal situation, things may change in here, it does appear though that some are actually "hoping" that she has that right to return

I've done some reading and it looks like one can indeed have dual nationality without the brit govt knowing any details of it. The British government allows that.

So basically Sajid played the perfect politicial card. He's revoked her citizenship and basically asked Bangla to prove she's not their citizen. That is of course not possible, so when begum comes back to the UK(which she obviously will), he can claim to have done his best to stop her. Quite impressive

Javid is is a tit. Playing to the galleries and making it up as he goes along. He has a ready audience with some of the people on here.

You just know someone is going to bring that girl back here. Personally I think she was a stupid little girl who wanted to escape the life her parents had in line for her. You can tell she is not political from her bumbling excuses. Like many young people she also sounded selfish and ignorant of others. I think she is finally getting it and has changed tack.

From being a poster child for Isis she could be used to as a propaganda tool to show the reality of the situation with the death cult.

I still have not encountered anyone I have come across to have the slightest sympathy for her.

I know of "friends" with dual citizenship/nationalities without the knowledge of their country of origin if that country forbids their citizen having dual citizenship/nationalities - they would just secure a passport from their country of origin.

She should be discharged to the tender loving care of her dear old dad, currently residing in Bangla Desh,I believe. They seem to have ownership of their daughters in Islam so why shouldn't he take responsibility for the lass and his grandchild ?

Been granted Legal aid :(, thought that was only for British Citizens which I was led to believe she wasn't anymore :(, will run into the £100,000's no doubt, lining the pockets of her bearded lawyers no doubt :( Seems the Legal aid folks have more power than our Home Secretary :(

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-47934721

lining the pockets of her bearded lawyers no doubt

I am not beardist!

I think lawyers are scum, beard or no beard, legal thieves!

Probably one of the few issues that left and right wingers on here can agree on WD !

Send in the sas with instructions to sort the problem.

And then prosecute the soldier for murder after the event,no way !

Surely, prosecute the minister who gave order to execute the british citizen found guilty of no crimes?

Send in the sas with instructions to sort the problem.


Kinda like what the Saudi Crown Prince did?

I think you are living in the wrong country my good man, do you have links to Islamic Terrorism?

And then prosecute the soldier for murder after the event,no way !


Vaild point!

Who gave the order?

she clearly said in her first interview in the camp where she is that she still supports  iss but didnt relize mothers and children would be killed in the manchester bombings but killing males is ok, it was the right decision to strip her of her citzenship, she doesnt deserve it, if you bought her back she would teach other people it was ok to kill innocent people, she made her choice (was a minor just) and still doesnt relize what terror iss have caused, she made her bed and now must lie in it

she hasnt shown any remorse whatsoever so minor or not when she left, not our problem

She will be well coached by the civil rights lawyer representing her and say all the right things to tug at the heartstrings of the media soon.

She will be well coached by the civil rights lawyer representing her and say all the right things to tug at the heartstrings of the media soon.

Wow, I’m in a minority on here. I don’t hate lawyers: having recourse to law is an essential element of a civilised democratic society. I also have some sympathy for Begum, although obviously she isn’t doing a great job of eliciting sympathy. She’s a teenager who was radicalised, has been sexually abused and has been bereaved several times over. The media framing here is utterly different to how it would be if she were white.

Well I hate lawyers!

I am not sure she can be stripped of her citizenship/ This case is set to run in the courts so we shall see.

I do think she was a child when radicalised but have little sympathy. She had a good education. Unfortunately for her, her Fairytale was written by the brothers Grimm.

Here is something to consider

Someone wrote on a forum recently that life was so miseravle for most people that all they had was a Faith in God and a better after life to keep them going.

If you are a woman from a muslim background and not from a rich or educated family then your life is going to follow a particular pattern that is not particularly something to look forward to.

What I don't understand is why more young muslim girls and boys have not stood up and said enough and started screwing, gambling and getting p*ssed!

PP the army recruiting from the thicker members of your school makes sense.They don't want the private soldier to think ;he's there solely to carry out orders from the officer class who have been educated at top schools and been through Sandhurst. The first thing that happens to recruits is they are mentally broken down to a shell and then rebuilt to the prescribed specification which is effectively a killing machine  . The average squaddie hasn't really changed for hundreds of years and Wellington's quote probably still applies...I don't know what effect these men will have upon the enemy but by God they frighten me.

Thing is, how is that any different to how ISIS (or others) recruit their "soldiers"?

A difference is that the British army was 'promising' a career,money,excitement....ISIS only offer the opportunity to roger 1000 virgins in the afterlife.

I think if you don'r screw gamble or get pissed ISIS could be quite exciting. How different are their recruits so different to our own? Emotionally I am taling bout! A sense of excitement, duty, brainwashing etc. Not trying to defend them but just listen to the filth spouted on here. Many feel demonised just for being a muslim. If they don't mix in our society we will all have problems. I just hope the young people can just get on with it and each other. Kick the bigots on both sides into touch.