Forums
Welcome to Live View – Take the tour to learn more
Start Tour
There is currently 1 person viewing this thread.
tony57
06 Oct 18 18:08
Joined:
Date Joined: 13 Oct 10
| Topic/replies: 12,539 | Blogger: tony57's blog
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/c1008fb6-c8e0-11e8-9259-db41e732e46f

so much for the we need cheap labour to do these jobs? more lies, as we have always said pay british workers decent pay and they will do whats needed for the country.
Pause Switch to Standard View british workers do the jobs in paid...
Show More
Loading...
Report lfc1971 October 8, 2018 10:41 AM BST
Too simplistic for you ?

No it’s not , not really
Report PorcupineorPineapple October 8, 2018 11:00 AM BST
It really, really is. It's simplistic to the point of idiocy.
Report lfc1971 October 8, 2018 11:19 AM BST
maybe you don’t understand it , it’s very beautiful and very clever
Report lfc1971 October 8, 2018 11:21 AM BST
Montaigne was  like that
Report PorcupineorPineapple October 8, 2018 11:26 AM BST
I understand the quote. I also understand it's utterly irrelevant to this issue. I'm like that.
Report lfc1971 October 8, 2018 11:29 AM BST
Do you think you can do better than Montaigne

Go ahead , you haven’t answered

Why are these companies  , and these jobs and these people here ?
And not somewhere else

You haven’t answered
Report PorcupineorPineapple October 8, 2018 11:37 AM BST
I have done.


There are a large number of different reasons.

People are diverse in their backgrounds and motivations. Some see their current job as a stepping stone, some see it as a dream job, some are only doing it while studying for something better, some know they couldn't do much better really.

Companies are diverse in their outlooks and wishes. Some might be happy to plod along, earn a nice income for a day's work, some want to grow, some want to get rich quick and sell.

Business owners are diverse. Firstly, it depends on the size of the business. But some will be looking to squeeze every drop out, some happy to earn well but ensure the employees are also doing well, some will be looking to stay another 20 years, some only one. Some will look to pass it on to their kids, some will want to sell.



To boil it down to one little phrase or sentence is illogical and idiotic.
Report lfc1971 October 8, 2018 11:41 AM BST
Of course we all understand that

But it was you who said that business is concerned with profit and money and if they can’t get foreign staff they would leave or automate, or streamline , or outsource

The question is not about the weather or anything else

The question is why are they not doing that now

If what you say is correct
Report lfc1971 October 8, 2018 11:43 AM BST
Why are they here and not in some other country

That is the question , by your simple criteria they shouldn’t be here

That’s your criteria, explain it ...,,
Report lfc1971 October 8, 2018 11:54 AM BST
I’ll tell you again

As Montaigne said

Because Britain is what it is , and other countries are what they are

That is why , understand ?
Report PorcupineorPineapple October 8, 2018 12:04 PM BST
1. Again, I've already answered. I can't speak for all (see above) but innovation is going on all the time. Someday people will realise the biggest threat is not from foreigners but from automation. But if companies have exhausted the possibilities of streamlining and or outsourcing and are still looking at making an unacceptable profit then the choice is further reduced to a) how to make more profit (ie price hikes), b) is it worthwhile carrying on? or c) do I adjust and simply accept lower profits?

2. Not sure what you mean. There are businesses here, there are businesses elsewhere. Please see above post about myriad different reasons. But companies move fairly often. The correct question should be why do businesses choose to move, or indeed choose not to? As we know some businesses feel little loyalty to their staff and will happily downsize/re-locate if they think they can get a better deal elsewhere.

3. I do understand. But the simple fact is that once we've gone through Brexit and things have changed then Britain will be different from a business point of view. We will - possibly - no longer have frictionless trade with the EU. If your business depended on JIT systems and the ability for parts to be ordered and for them to arrive within 24 hours from across the Channel then you need to adjust. If a result of brexit is that companies are finding it harder to employ suitable staff, and those candidates are demanding more money then that leads to the argument in point 1.


I mean, I think that's all easy enough to understand.
Report lfc1971 October 8, 2018 12:18 PM BST
1. Automation has been here since the industrial revolution ,
If it applies to Britain it will apply to every country and if we need less workers because of it that’s another reason to stop immigration
So find see your point

2. We know there are business!s in every country
But your point was about wages
Why are they here is the question you haven’t answered

3. Most countries are outside the EU now
That’s easy to understand
Report PorcupineorPineapple October 8, 2018 12:22 PM BST
1. Your argument is just facile.

2. Still don't understand what you're trying to get across. Why are wages here?

3. Most countries trade by and large with their closest neighbours. Most EU countries have businesses which have grown used to working in a continent wide system where there is regulatory alignment and goods can be shipped quickly and cheaply. That's going to change for us. Hence, Britain in 2016 is likely to be very different to Britain in 2020 from a business perspective.
Report lfc1971 October 8, 2018 12:25 PM BST
1. You will have to explain why

2. why are the companies and jobs and people here if it’s about wages
I’m tired trying to get you to answer

3 Britain has always traded with every country in the world more or less
And that was long before we had the benefit of today’s technology
Report PorcupineorPineapple October 8, 2018 12:35 PM BST
1. It's reductive in the extreme.

2. Sorry you're tired. Maybe you could try phrasing your thoughts into some kind of sentence. Are you saying the only reason businesses are here is due to wages?

3. And we trade far more with the EU than the rest of the world. This thread is not about trade though. It's about the idea that leaving the EU will restrict supply of labour which will lead to higher wages.
Report lfc1971 October 8, 2018 12:42 PM BST
1. still no answer

2. It was you who said it was about wages ,and that it’s about costs and in particular wages I am merely saying if that’s the case
why are they here ,
And why are they here now , it’s you that claims they shouldn’t be

3 yes this thread is about wages , I am saying that less foreign immigration leading to poorer wages and conditions of employment
Is a bad thing ,
I
Report lfc1971 October 8, 2018 12:46 PM BST
* more foreign workers
Report PorcupineorPineapple October 8, 2018 12:46 PM BST
1.

2. I said "what's" about wages. And "they" again - is that still businesses? Seriously, I'd be happy to answer. Please take a minute and draft a question, maybe using nouns in place of it and they.

3. Ok. I'd say that less immigration leading to poorer wages is an interesting argument that I've not really heard proposed before. Most brexiteers have claimed it will lead to higher wages.
Report lfc1971 October 8, 2018 12:48 PM BST
Because the question then arises pp

How many more foreign workers would you wish to see ?
Report lfc1971 October 8, 2018 12:51 PM BST
1.

2. I have already said , if companies in Britain are concerned about costs and wages and that is why they need foreign workers
Why are they here , and not in some other country now ?
I don’t expect to have to ask again , it’s you who thinks they shouldn’t be

Tell us why ..

3 we can ignore that
Report lfc1971 October 8, 2018 12:52 PM BST
3. see * 12:46
Report lfc1971 October 8, 2018 12:53 PM BST
1. Still no answer I notice
Report lfc1971 October 8, 2018 12:58 PM BST
1. Automation is always with us , if you think it means less jobs ( it may not )
Then we should not be importing more workers
So what is your point ?
Report PorcupineorPineapple October 8, 2018 1:01 PM BST
1.

2. Ok. Again, myriad different reasons. I mean, I'm pretty sure I've said this. Some companies might be locked in by geography (eg farms - though some are owned by multi-nationals who will close an under-performing farm in Cornwall to open a new one in Slovakia, so). Some might be small businesses, eg cafes. Some are here because the dynamic of being English speaking, good travel links across the globe, and frictionless access to the EU makes us a good choice. Fact is though, you could take a poll of a hundred different business owners and get many, many different reasons.
Regarding costs and wages - and again to reference the point of the topic - the notion is that some businesses are currently here because they're profiting from "cheap, foreign labour". If indeed that changes, then we get into the realm of the decisions they will then make - ie do they absorb the cost, pass it on, do they look to outsource or automate, do they simply shut the doors, do they re-locate to somewhere where the barriers aren't so great.

3. I've covered this. On paper, then yes I could see why people would say less immigration leading to higher wages is a good thing. But as I've said (several times) someone's got to pay for that.
Report PorcupineorPineapple October 8, 2018 1:02 PM BST
1. We're not "importing more workers". I had this with the other whopper the other day. Countries don't import people. Actually, those people use their own free will and decide to move.
Report lfc1971 October 8, 2018 1:04 PM BST
2. it’s you , no one else who is saying that some firms are here because of cheap labour
That is the opposite of what I am saying
I am saying if they want to benefit from cheap labour why are they here ?
You haven’t answered
Report lfc1971 October 8, 2018 1:05 PM BST
1. I isn’t for one moment suggest that we were forcing them to come to Britain
So stop talking nonsense
Report Dr Crippen October 8, 2018 1:05 PM BST
Yes, why don't they go where the cheap labour is?
Report PorcupineorPineapple October 8, 2018 1:07 PM BST
2. Did I say they were here because they wanted to benefit from cheap labour? You're asking me to explain a position I haven't made.
Report lfc1971 October 8, 2018 1:10 PM BST
It is you who said they would leave if wages were to rise , just that ,because they are motivated by profit

If that is the case why are they in Britain and as doc says not elsewhere

You haven’t answered that pp
Report lfc1971 October 8, 2018 1:11 PM BST
It is you , not us, who is saying they shouldn’t be here
Report lfc1971 October 8, 2018 1:11 PM BST
Now , not tomorrow
But now , why are they here now ?
Report PorcupineorPineapple October 8, 2018 1:28 PM BST
1. I'd agree that companies are motivated by profit and some would leave if wages were to rise. We're already hearing enough noises from various industries and businesses who are saying they may be forced to do so. Again though - and I really do mean again - they are here, not elsewhere for myriad reasons. Costs may be one factor, but maybe while they could build something cheaper in Poland when you factor in other factors and still benefit from frictionless trade then they may wish to choose here. It's a balancing act; they will trade off so much in costs to get access to other benefits. If those costs were to rise by x% then that trade-off may not be so worthwhile and the decision would have to be made on whether to stay, go, close or cut costs elsewhere.

2. I didn't

3. You mean right now? This afternoon?
Report lfc1971 October 8, 2018 1:39 PM BST
1. we all know companies are motivated by profit , however
you are saying that companies , some companies , will leave Britain if they cannot get access to foreign labour because of wages and their effect on wages
why have they not left already to a different country , now , today ?
They are in Britain , the jobs are in Britain and the people are in Britain
Now , why is that if they are motivated by wages
That’s the question you haven’t answered
It’s you who said they would leave
But they haven’t , it’s Britain providing the jobs and the jobs are in Britain
Were there is higher wages , not lower

I
Report lfc1971 October 8, 2018 1:40 PM BST
So yes I mean today , this afternoon

Why are they here ?
Report lfc1971 October 8, 2018 1:42 PM BST
You have said they will leave tomorrow , or in 5 years time , of 10

Why not today if they want access to foreign workers ?
Report lfc1971 October 8, 2018 1:44 PM BST
perhaps Poland or some other dreamy country in Africa or the Far East , wherever ?

Why are they in Britain and not there ?
Report lfc1971 October 8, 2018 1:46 PM BST
I’ve akready  given you the answer pp

Montaigne
Because Britain is what it is , and other countries are what they are
Report PorcupineorPineapple October 8, 2018 1:48 PM BST
1. Because the trade-off is currently in favour of staying. If that changes - eg suddenly costs go up because of JIT practices altering meaning more downtime and storage costs, if they struggled more to attract quality staff, and if the staff they do recruit demand more - thereby, influencing existing staff to demand more - then that balance shifts dramatically and may be the trigger for them to leave.

2. Not sure I can answer that. Can you maybe specify a particular business and why this afternoon is so pertinent to them?

3. I didn't

4. Asked and answered.
Report PorcupineorPineapple October 8, 2018 1:49 PM BST
5. Again, that quote is irrelevant. Britain is what it is, but once outside the EU it will be something else.
Report lfc1971 October 8, 2018 2:07 PM BST
1. You were talking about wages , everything else can change of course
They may become better for companies after Brexit ?
So that’s not an argument to continue with free movement

2..I am not specifying any particular company , or even the time of day
I am just asking why are they in Britain and not Poland , or anywhere else really

3 I agree, Britain has been Britain for a 1000 years
But everything changes , I would like to have sailed on a great big clipper ship
How glorious Britain is
Report lfc1971 October 8, 2018 2:10 PM BST
You see that’s Britain , that’s why they are here, that’s why the companies are here , that’s why the people are here
And not some other glorious dreamy country
Report lfc1971 October 8, 2018 2:17 PM BST
In business the most important thing is to be able to adapt, that’s all things are always changing
Report lfc1971 October 8, 2018 2:19 PM BST
That’s the difference between the Brexiteers outlook , and remainers
Brexiteers do fear change , that welcome it understand it has to happen
Report PorcupineorPineapple October 8, 2018 2:30 PM BST
1. Again, it was to do with the point of the thread and the idea of brexit=limited supply=higher wages.

2. Already covered.

3. Lovely



Brexiteers do fear change
- never a truer word spoken.
Report lfc1971 October 8, 2018 2:34 PM BST
* do not 
    my phones playing up
No after all pp Brexit could be a massive change
I doubt really very much will change in practice

But there’s no getting away from the fact that it is Brexiteers who are driving for change
and remainers prefer the status quo , that’s how it is
Report PorcupineorPineapple October 8, 2018 2:35 PM BST
Can't deny that last point.

As I've said earlier, if the circumstances were different I could easily be persuaded to vote for brexit but given the climate, the timeframe and the restrictions I think the status quo is far better than the likely outcome.
Report jed.davison October 8, 2018 2:53 PM BST
I tend to have a similar, albeit opposite, opinion.

I could easily have voted to remain in the EU, but given its anti-democratic nature, its corruption, its impoverishment of the lesser nations of Europe, its overarching interference in National democracies, its intention to raise an Army, its protectionist trade policies, and its determination to foist millions of savages on to its members states, I decided it had to be Leave.
Report PorcupineorPineapple October 8, 2018 3:33 PM BST
"savages"
Report lfc1971 October 8, 2018 3:36 PM BST
pineapple during the days of the British empire the British called certain people savages , because that’s what they were
What’s wrong with that ?
Report lfc1971 October 8, 2018 3:39 PM BST
They used to eat each other, or bury lepers alive , or set fire to their widows on funeral pyres

That sort of thing , the British put a stop to that
Report PorcupineorPineapple October 8, 2018 3:42 PM BST
So are you saying jed is saying the EU is forcing us to take in 100 year old cannibals and lepers? (idea for a game show)
Report lfc1971 October 8, 2018 3:43 PM BST
Well things might have changed, a little  not much
It’s a bit risky , that’s all
Report lfc1971 October 8, 2018 3:44 PM BST
I think we can safely call Isis savages for example
Report PorcupineorPineapple October 8, 2018 3:47 PM BST
Well you call it risky, I'll just call his comment outright racist. (*countdown till snowflakes start getting upset at being called out)
Report lfc1971 October 8, 2018 3:52 PM BST
I don’t think it’s racist in the slightest

Do you know there was a section of the British public who refused to believe that there were any savages in darkest Africa and would venture there at the time of the empire and they were the very ones who ended up in the pot
Yes it’s true !

Even the good and intrepid  David Livingstone came to the realisation and started to carry a gun for his own protection because he became so fearful
Report PorcupineorPineapple October 8, 2018 3:57 PM BST
Well, if he was talking about cannibal lepers then I take it back.
Report jed.davison October 8, 2018 3:58 PM BST
Not interested in countering the point made, only taking pretend offence.
Report PorcupineorPineapple October 8, 2018 4:01 PM BST
No need to counter some of it jed. It's old ground firstly, and secondly I agree with some of it. Savages though.
Report lfc1971 October 8, 2018 4:02 PM BST
Have a little look at the actions of Isis  , at the barbaric actions in many countries of other similar factions and people you can if you wish i no longer listen even to the news news it’s so appalling ,
Report Dr Crippen October 8, 2018 4:03 PM BST
and its determination to foist millions of savages on to its members states,

No mention of any race there. The language has to discriminate between races in order to be racist.

So how can what he wrote be racist?
Report lfc1971 October 8, 2018 4:03 PM BST
savages is the correct term
Report PorcupineorPineapple October 8, 2018 4:05 PM BST
Well that countdown didn't need to run long
Report lfc1971 October 8, 2018 4:05 PM BST
Want to take a little look at what is happening in Africa , today ?
Report mukdahan October 8, 2018 4:16 PM BST
When you look at the history of the British empire many countries would consider the British to be the most savage people ever.
Report Dr Crippen October 8, 2018 4:20 PM BST
The British have always done the right thing, and with a stiff upper lip.

Mostly.
Report lfc1971 October 8, 2018 4:21 PM BST
I disagree , I think it was the greatest and most benign of all empires

Do you know it was the British empire that for the first time in human history stopped slavery ?
That’s a great thing right there
Report lfc1971 October 8, 2018 4:22 PM BST
In India the British empire stopped the religious group the ‘thugees ‘ from murdering millions of people over decades
Well done the British I say
Report mukdahan October 8, 2018 4:23 PM BST
actually it was denmark
Report lfc1971 October 8, 2018 4:25 PM BST
They had gone about their murderous ways for 600 years killing millions
Until the British arrived and stopped them
Report lfc1971 October 8, 2018 4:26 PM BST
British seapower and the might of the British empire ensured it
You can forget about Denmark , they weren’t in india either
Report Dr Crippen October 8, 2018 4:27 PM BST
The British Empire was greatest empire the world has ever known. No doubt about it.
Report lfc1971 October 8, 2018 4:28 PM BST
The British empire was the greatest power for good in the history of the world
Report Dr Crippen October 8, 2018 4:28 PM BST
Beat the Bosch twice as well.
Report Dr Crippen October 8, 2018 4:29 PM BST
And produced the greatest man who ever lived: Sir Winston Churchill.
Report Dr Crippen October 8, 2018 4:30 PM BST
World cup winners 1966.
Report lfc1971 October 8, 2018 4:32 PM BST
Quite right doc , even that victory against Nazi Germany and it’s barbaric terrible regime is enough
More than enough to put the British empire above and behind all other people in history
And then again look at the hundreds , thousands of other great things and people from Britain
But that alone was enough
Report Dr Crippen October 8, 2018 4:33 PM BST
The Danes indeed.
Report lfc1971 October 8, 2018 4:33 PM BST
* above and beyond all other countries or people
Report lfc1971 October 8, 2018 4:34 PM BST
History will be kind to the British
Report Dr Crippen October 8, 2018 4:44 PM BST
Sir Douglas Bader, beat the Luftwaffe without any legs.
Report lfc1971 October 8, 2018 4:47 PM BST
Grin its true
Report tony57 October 8, 2018 5:34 PM BST
greatest man who ever lived..churchill?  tell that to many workers he had shot on strike...welsh coal miners....he was a great war time leader, but he did many bad things...
Report Dr Crippen October 8, 2018 5:35 PM BST
British jobs for British workers.
Report Dr Crippen October 8, 2018 5:47 PM BST
''he had shot on strike''

Evidence please.
Report jed.davison October 8, 2018 6:43 PM BST
One should conduct a periodical cull of the Welsh.
Report tony57 October 8, 2018 8:05 PM BST
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-merseyside-14529243

https://winstonchurchill.org/resources/myths/striking-welsh-coal-miners/

there are a few more..churchill was home sec, and sent in the army

in liverpool churchill told the army to break the strike and to use all force they wanted..killing innocent people..

he sent the army into glasgow with the same results...he was a right tw.t
Report Dr Crippen October 8, 2018 8:21 PM BST
The first link refers to a transport workers strike where two were shot during riots. No mention of Winston Churchill and no Welsh miners involved.

In the second link involving Welsh miners,I can't find where where it says anyone was shot.

Here is an extract from the link you supplied:

Churchill’s whole conduct in the matter has since been grotesquely distorted, and it has become a part of socialist demonology that Churchill sent troops who fired upon the miners of Tonypandy. Socialist propagandists have sought to make martyrs of the miners of Tonypandy comparable to those of Tolpuddle in 1834
.

Shame on you tony for misrepresenting the great man.
Report tony57 October 9, 2018 1:17 PM BST
onece again crippen you fail to see the wood from the trees..churchill was home sec,? he sent in the army? will orders to do what was needed???
the 2nd one is a pro churchill site..i posted that for fair coverage..but the point being he sent in the army to crush the workers..miners were killed....as i said in the post..there are many more..but with you im wasting my time..
Report tony57 October 9, 2018 1:21 PM BST
https://crimesofbritain.com/2016/09/13/the-trial-of-winston-churchill/

there you go crippen..the worst of churchill from another view point....shame on you for ignoring the facts..
Report tony57 October 9, 2018 1:26 PM BST
https://tidesofhistory.wordpress.com/2018/01/28/churchill-vs-the-miners-his-...
Report Dr Crippen October 9, 2018 2:38 PM BST
He sent in the army in case it turned nasty, and it did turn nasty, but where is the record of miners being killed during the strike?

Again, the page of link you supplied at 13:21 doesn't mention the miners strike, and I can't see where the author has even put their name to the article.

The last link you supplied doesn't mention any miners being shot either.

You'll have to up your game tony. You can't just come on here spraying around slanderous allegations about our national heroes. Not if you want to retain any credibility.
Report Dr Crippen October 9, 2018 2:50 PM BST
Winston Churchill died 53 years ago this week, on the 24th January 1965.
Leading the tributes to him that day, was the man widely regarded as Labour’s greatest ever leader, Clement Attlee:

“None of us can ever forget how, through all those long years, he now and again spoke exactly the phrase that crystallised the feelings of the nation…we have lost the greatest Englishman of our time—I think the greatest citizen of the world of our time.”
Report politicspunter October 9, 2018 2:53 PM BST
What exactly were you expecting him to say? Here lies the greatest mass murderer of our time, possibly the greatest English mass murderer of our generation or any future generation.
Report lfc1971 October 9, 2018 3:10 PM BST
Churchill did all he could in the midst of a world war and without him the famine would have been worse
Report lfc1971 October 9, 2018 3:11 PM BST
Altee was part of the government at the time
Report Dr Crippen October 9, 2018 3:14 PM BST
What exactly were you expecting him to say?

The truth.

Are you calling Attlee a liar, as well as libelling the UK's greatest hero?
Report moisok October 9, 2018 8:05 PM BST
of course it would be fine if it was all done on a level playing field

many of the leading countries in the eu do not obey eu financial rules

just saying
Report moisok October 9, 2018 8:06 PM BST
germany = 74 infringements
Report ufcdan October 9, 2018 10:22 PM BST
Won the war, bumped of lefties. He gets my vote Laugh
Post Your Reply
<CTRL+Enter> to submit
Please login to post a reply.

Wonder

Instance ID: 13539
www.betfair.com