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tony57
29 Aug 18 16:15
Joined:
Date Joined: 13 Oct 10
| Topic/replies: 12,539 | Blogger: tony57's blog
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-08-29/u-k-s-raab-to-meet-barnier-for-talks-on-friday-brexit-update
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Report Wallflower September 2, 2018 7:53 PM BST
We lose the 600 million market on our doorstep by boycotting irish beef.

EU (Irish) will alos have access to all the markets we don't have trade deals yet. This couldnt be construed as a good idea in any shape or form
Report lfc1971 September 2, 2018 7:57 PM BST
The Irish have access to no more markets than they do now , but they lose the very important UK market

Britain lose access to the EU market but has access to the rest of the world and more importantly a very large home market without competition from the EU including Ireland

Very good prospect for UK farmers , very disasterous for Ireland , thankyou
Report lfc1971 September 2, 2018 8:04 PM BST
next time you go back to Ireland tell the mugs to stop rolling their eyes

They don’t understand  the basics , and neither do you
Report Wallflower September 2, 2018 8:30 PM BST
They do because they have will take a substantial part of the eu market. Would it hurt them? Probably a bit, but its seems they'd get over pretty quick. Our farmers might be in more trouble.

That is the issue - they generally understand the basics.Unfortunately you continually clearly exhibit you do not. As do our lamentable politicians. Its hard for them not to be rolling their eyes when they see Boris, May, JRM, Fox, Davis etc etc - clearly clueless.

Facts seem to upset you I notice.
Report lfc1971 September 2, 2018 8:32 PM BST
Wallflower I have just pointed out the facts of life to you

Now no amount of your waffle is going to cover up for that , no one is fooled
Report lfc1971 September 2, 2018 8:43 PM BST
Wallflower that’s history , I know all about that
Even better I understand it which you do not
Whatever it has no relevance whatsoever

Here are the FACTS, the N Ireland unionists ( and nationalists ) are British
And have equal rights with anyone else in Britain

Now try and understand that
Report Wallflower September 2, 2018 8:48 PM BST
Correct.  I do understand.

And NI (unionists and republicans) are also Irish - with the same rights as anyone else in Ireland.

...and the common travel area, between Britain and Ireland is at our behest.

I'm glad we had this little chat, and we all understand the facts.
Report lfc1971 September 2, 2018 8:50 PM BST
ok * wrong  thread : )
Report lfc1971 September 2, 2018 8:54 PM BST
Here’s another little fact the Irish ( in the ROI) can remember
And you as well wallflower
They are not British
Report Wallflower September 2, 2018 9:22 PM BST
..... ehmm, I know that also.

Though it seems fair to say that they are quite happy that they are notCool. In fact, they get quite upset if confused as suchLaugh - just say "mainland" to them and see the reactionGrin
Report lfc1971 September 2, 2018 9:42 PM BST
Ireland , imo , should be the next country to considerleaving the EU

We joined at the same time and ideally would have left at the same time

At the very least they should hold a referendum
Report lfc1971 September 2, 2018 9:43 PM BST
just my opinion
Report lfc1971 September 2, 2018 9:47 PM BST
ps , the next time they don’t like to hear about the mainland I suggest you tell them that’s fine

Don’t expect to live and work here either , we won’t be in the least offended
Report lfc1971 September 2, 2018 9:48 PM BST
I’m sure Germany and France and Poland and Hungary will make them welcome
Report lfc1971 September 2, 2018 9:50 PM BST
Let’s see how that works out
Report TheBetterBettor September 3, 2018 9:31 AM BST
eu ready to offer....
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.
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Two different time-zones on the island of ireland.  Laugh
Report InsiderTrader September 3, 2018 9:40 AM BST
Wallflower
02 Sep 18 19:03
Joined: 01 Nov 04
| Topic/replies: 5,919 | Blogger: Wallflower's blog
sageform - I dont either - people should be free to buy as they choose. Was just replying to IT point about Irish beef (also made by JRM) - it would actually back-fire on us, and could actually benefit the Irish. That was all, boycotting etc is a very misguided policy.

^

Not talking about a boycott.

The point is the Irish export most of its beef to the UK.

If the EU decide not have a FTA and prefer a trade war instead the Irish beef farmers (and the Irish in general) will suffer a lot more than the 60 million Great British people.

Great Britain wants an FTA with the EU (and thus Ireland).

Great Britain and the EU want no border.

It is only the EU and its clipboard rules that is stopping this from happening.
Report lfc1971 September 3, 2018 9:53 AM BST
The EU want to maintain freedom of movement
That , and only that , is what is stopping trade deals being done
(and they are using the Irish as a pawn in that game )
Report lfc1971 September 3, 2018 9:54 AM BST
Until people understand that they will understand nothing
Report melv September 3, 2018 7:11 PM BST
terms of the subject of the thread.

Just feel the EU is on the verge of saying "just f*ck off". Take this or leave it.

Regardless of whether you are a leaver or a remainer - what must it be like for the EU negotiating with the UK?.??

In 2 years nobody actually knows what we wanted  (because we didn't - too busy fighting with each other).

Then eventually we make a proposal about 15 mins to midnight in the process - that is unacceptable to the EU (who said, ok we can start from here), unacceptable to leavers, unacceptable to most remainers. But our PM is not budging (or so she says).

This will be in the history books about how not to govern from so many angles. An embarrassing and humiliating farce of the highest order for each side of the issue.


I could not agree more wallflower. Yet our opponents will for generations say that all this mess was the fault of the EU.
Report Arleystation September 4, 2018 12:04 PM BST
In 2 years nobody actually knows what we wanted

We wanted to leave the EU.

That means no more freedom of movement, no more customs union, no more single market (if that means adherence to freedom of movement and customs union), no more subservience to European Court of Justice. Clear and unequivocal independence for the UK once again.

The mechanics/details of extricating ourselves have been perpetually hamstrung by politicians and civil servants who don't want us to leave the EU and constantly believe the majority who voted Leave are thick as mince and should be ignored/outmanoeuvred.
Report jed.davison September 4, 2018 12:18 PM BST
No no no no no Arleystation.

Melv, who voted Remain and continues to campaign for Remain, will be on shortly to tell you that we did not vote to leave the Single Market, because that was not clearly printed on the ballot paper. He will of course ignore the fact that our departure from the Single Marlet went hand in hand with a vote to Leave, as promised by David Cameron and George Osborne in their little pamphlet which cost £9m to distribute.

Nor did we vote to end freedom of movement - again because that was not on the ballot paper in bold type.

The point I think you may be missing arleystation is that people like melv, who voted Remain and continues to campaign for Remain, know much better than you or me as to exactly why we voted Remain.
Report jed.davison September 4, 2018 12:18 PM BST
That last word should be LEAVE - mea culpa.
Report sageform September 4, 2018 1:28 PM BST
Ultimately it was "our fault" for calling a referendum and voting leave but there is no doubt in my mind that the EU strategy since then has been to reject every offer that the UK has made to compromise. They believe that if they offer us nothing apart from staying as a full member, we will eventually cave in and stay. Once we leave with no deal they will soon be back with a sensible trade deal under pressure from their business community. If we did reverse our decision, they would still "punish" us by ignoring our views in all of the EU forums for a generation or at least until the current EU leaders are gone.
Report Wallflower September 5, 2018 12:14 AM BST
Ehmm - must have missed all of that.

So whats the problem - why didn't we just rock up and tell the EU we're off no SM, no CU etc etc.

Wouldn't have been a problem - just pay our dues and f*ck off.  But we didn't - no point blaming the EU when we never presented one shred of paper with a proposal on it for 2 F*ckin' years !!!

So dont give me that - you might think we know what we want - but we seem to have neglected to tell anyone else...... that matters
Report melv September 5, 2018 2:05 AM BST
This is one of the best posts in the whole sad sorry Charade.



terms of the subject of the thread.

Just feel the EU is on the verge of saying "just f*ck off". Take this or leave it.

Regardless of whether you are a leaver or a remainer - what must it be like for the EU negotiating with the UK?.??

In 2 years nobody actually knows what we wanted  (because we didn't - too busy fighting with each other).

Then eventually we make a proposal about 15 mins to midnight in the process - that is unacceptable to the EU (who said, ok we can start from here), unacceptable to leavers, unacceptable to most remainers. But our PM is not budging (or so she says).

This will be in the history books about how not to govern from so many angles. An embarrassing and humiliating farce of the highest order for each side of the issue.


I could not agree more wallflower. Yet our opponents will for generations say that all this mess was the fault of the EU.
Report sageform September 5, 2018 8:00 AM BST
I agree with nearly all of the below apart from the EU telling us to just go. They are still determined to keep us in by whatever means they can think of. Mervyn King, the last Governor of the Bank of England, supported leave but feels that the Government have made a terrible job of the negotiations.
Report treetop September 5, 2018 9:05 PM BST
Mervyn King has put our negotiations performance in perspective,he is amazed an economy that is 6th biggest in the world can be so useless. Says everything about our civil service mandarins and political leadership.
Report lfc1971 September 5, 2018 9:09 PM BST
It’s true it hasn’t been good , but at the same time nothing really has been settled as yet
If we can’t come to an arrangement I think it’s a bit unfair to blame Britain
The fault lies mainly with the EU imo
Report unitedbiscuits September 5, 2018 9:24 PM BST
The point is that Leavers mess up everything that is put in front of them, so we cannot really blame them for the mess we are in.
You can show a dog a clock, but you can't make it tell the time.
Report lfc1971 September 5, 2018 10:10 PM BST
as a remainer can you think of a solution that would be attractive to leavers ?
Report lord skywalker September 6, 2018 9:37 AM BST
we had a vote the people decided, you cant go back and change your mind just because you dont like the outcome, do you really think labour wouldve done a better job getting us thru brexit i dont think so
Report Foinavon September 6, 2018 10:09 AM BST
As lfc said, nothing is settled. The Chequers t urd cannot be polished and a Canada plus is currently blocked by the Irish border interpretation which May signed up to earlier this year. Norway is too close to the four freedoms for the Brexit side of the Commons so something has to give if leaving on WTO terms is to be avoided.
Who can possibly know where the breakthrough will come from, all we can suppose it that it will be a last minute fix as is usually the case with the EU. I think there will be a deal as both sides have been brandishing "No Deal" like the USA and USSR brandished nuclear missiles during the height of the cold war.
Report cyclops September 6, 2018 10:49 AM BST
Those who state what we should do and how we should leave ignore the reality.

There is no majority in parliament for ANY form of leaving (or remaining) including "No Deal".

It is this arithmetic, rather than anything else, which demands that something seismic must happen before we can progress. A General Election, another Referendum or, possibly, a new Tory leader.

Without one of those events occurring, leavers and remainers alike can spout, demand, pontificate, blame and insult each other and it will make no difference at all.
Report Foinavon September 6, 2018 11:24 AM BST
I see that JR-M has published a letter he wrote to Lord Adonis. I think this is worth reading in the context of this thread.

https://docs.wixstatic.com/ugd/fc5611_cb15b5bc1cd34cd0af41deae5e4e330e.pdf
Report melv September 6, 2018 7:08 PM BST
Two things the Idiot Rees Mogg and fans fail to  grasp in any way shape or from. Is Mogg fick? or what. He is something very unsavoury and I do not even think he is polished. A moron can have a posh accent.

One.....We left the EU and the consequences are our fault and no-one else's. Blaming the EU for our own actions is weak cowardly and false. How noble.

Two ……….. The EU said from the  very first that the UK cannot be see to be just as well off out of the EU as in it. This would be suicide for the EU. If there was no advantage in being in the EU why oh why should anyone be in it. And there is no way on earth or in heaven that the EU will enable us to be better off outside the EU than in it. On such terms very country will want the same deal and The European Union will be finished. This attitude of UK exceptionalism which we have maintained for decades does not exacly endear us to the Europeans and there are amny who just want usn to go away as we have been an irritant from the get go.
Report jollyswagman September 6, 2018 7:14 PM BST
foinavon, there are few people in the country who know less about how the eu works and how trade works than jrm, he is clueless as this letter proves.

its way, way too late to start talking about a fta as they take years to negotiate.

the wto doesnt cover vast areas that need agreements, only a fool would refer to the wto as an option. there isnt a single advanced economy in the world that relies purely on wto terms to trade.

i dont know the legalities of not paying but i could see his approach ending up in the international courts. if we pay nothing having already said we will pay how do you expect anyone to take us seriously in future negotiations?

a cheap shot to say the lord likes spending tax payers money, jrm defends spending cash on paintings of MPs and, remind me again, how many millions of  taxpayer money did his wife trouser to renovate her stately pad? (we can all do cheap shots).

oh dear, if the planes will still fly why is the government negotiating with the usa to replace the deal we have with them as members of the eu? (read the game over for remainers thread - gutfeeling posted an article on the uk/us negotiations). the international convention he is referring to (the chicago convention) does not mean we can unilaterally decide to fly over other countries' air space. it requires countries to reach agreements that allow overflight rights but the rights themselves dont come into effect until the formal agreements have been signed. currently regulation (EC) No 1008/2008 allows us these rights but it will no longer apply to us and so the freedoms of the air end automatically once we leave the eu. no one is punishing us, its just what happens when you leave an agreement if you havent come up with something to replace it.

talking about the will of the people isnt a plan to extricate us from an organisation we have spent over 40 years integrating ourselves into. there are over a thousand laws relating to fishing alone, working out which ones need to be repatriated and worked into uk law is a mammoth task itself. repeat this in area after area and you begin to understand leaving the eu is anything but simple.

i've had enough of his rubbish, he's seeking to blame the eu when and if it all goes belly up. all you have to do is read article 50, its very simple, when we leave, we leave all the treaties and so all the organisations we are part of due to signing the treaties. read the eu notices to stakeholders. i've mentioned all this before and so have several others.

we are going round and round in circles, getting nowhere, much like our useless leaders SadLaugh


cyclops, as far as i can see changing leader makes no difference as the tories still wont be able to agree a plan that reconciles their various factions. i agree with what you say but we are leaving in march, that's why i fear we will be leaving without a deal,the different groups know this and are seeking to shift the blame.


have a good evening one and all.
Report melv September 6, 2018 7:49 PM BST
no one is punishing us, its just what happens when you leave an agreement if you havent come up with something to replace it.

Wasting your time here Jolly. There are many many facts that Leavers will never get trough their skulls and the above is one of them.

They are addicted to their cloud cuckooland fantasies.
Report unitedbiscuits September 6, 2018 8:05 PM BST
Operation Yellowhammer
“We now know the government is preparing for Brexit in the same way they’d approach catastrophes like flooding, a disease outbreak or a terrorist attack. This is not what anyone voted for in 2016.”
Report melv September 6, 2018 8:19 PM BST
Yes and we have flooded ourselves with insanity, with mental disease and we have terrorised ourselves. It is weak cowardly and false to blame Europe for our own actions.


And Brexit is so addicted to its cloud cuckoo land fantasies that it will never comprehend this. I doubt you lot can even hear read or see it.
Report lfc1971 September 6, 2018 8:40 PM BST
I don’t think the remainers understand , the onus is on them to offer something attractive to leavers if they want us to come to a deal
Report treetop September 6, 2018 9:04 PM BST
The constant and inane whingeing is tiresome,just accept we are leaving and get on with it instead of crying and abusing anyone who voted different to yourselves.
Report Foinavon September 6, 2018 11:24 PM BST
It's amusing that Jolly and Melv think they know more about the EU than JR-M and keep repeating the mantra that all Leavers are thick which any fool but a foolish Remainer would realise is false.
Melv, if the EU have to impose elaborate conditions to punish us so that we cannot be seen to be better off by leaving, that tells you being in the EU is a drag on economic progress and almost everyone would be better off leaving.
What strange logic you remainers employ. Although I've asked the question before, your camp never tell us what you voted for. We all know the EU is changing, their goal is closer integration. Can you tell me what it will look like in 5 or 10 years time? How much would our payments be? Would we be required to join the euro and how would that affect our economy? How much control would we still have over our armed forces and who would determine our foreign policy? Of course you can't, you would just be guessing.
Report Wallflower September 7, 2018 12:05 AM BST
Foinavon    06 Sep 18 23:24 
It's amusing that Jolly and Melv think they know more about the EU than JR-M and keep repeating the mantra that all Leavers are thick which any fool but a foolish Remainer would realise is false.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I can tell you for a fact I know more about the EU than JR-M - and I'm no expert. So it wouldn't be hard. He has brushed-up a bit lately, but his lack of knowledge was, at one stage, astounding.

Meanwhile in the real world where I work - the final decisions where whole sections are going to work are underway. Many involved want Paris, and not Amsterdam, Dublin or Frankfurt. Lots of tensions there - as the company for costs reasons / employment reasons dont want Paris. But what is certain its bye bye to UK - cant wait any longer. Its over. Some very unhappy people as you would expect.

Significant job losses - but they will be minor in comparison to the next 10-12 years as all the recruitment will no longer be focused in UK. Spending a lot of time in Dublin as part of the one of the moves - cranes everywhere there. This is real stuff and real money moving behind the scenes.
Report lfc1971 September 7, 2018 7:12 AM BST
Isn’t it amazing how some people are under the impression that they will be missed . In business and work this is the truth , no one is ever missed
Poor wallflower his tear stains and hopeless sighs make me want to laugh
Report lfc1971 September 7, 2018 7:51 AM BST
If we are talking about the financial sector and banks the one reason they are in London is the tax advantage and the British overseas territories
They will go nowhere ( ps the tax they contribute to the UK  is a falicy also based on made up and manipuluted figures )
Of course it’s possible some offices may move to Europe post Brexit , that’s all and not important
Report unitedbiscuits September 7, 2018 10:03 AM BST
City of London will be one of the biggest losers of Brexit. As Wallflower testifies, they cannot build prime office space fast enough in Dublin and Frankfurt.
Eventually the dismemberment of London's financial service industry will impact on the price of your house. What has already happened is that the currency your house is valued in has already been decimated.

#Yellowhammer  acknowledges the need to “maintain confidence in the event of contingency plans being triggered – particularly important for financial services”.

Next stop South Pole for £ when the disaster-capitalists force "no deal" Brexit.
Report lfc1971 September 7, 2018 11:02 AM BST
London’s financial sector has no effect or bearing on house prices so you can forget about that if it worries you
Report unitedbiscuits September 7, 2018 11:14 AM BST
/\ Typical ostrich-like Leaver behaviour /\
The London housing boom ripples out to the remotest backwater of the UK.
It doesn't worry me but it should certainly worry anyone whose wealth is tied-up in bricks and mortar, lfc1971.
Report edy September 7, 2018 11:21 AM BST

Sep 6, 2018 -- 6:05PM, Wallflower wrote:


Foinavon    06 Sep 18 23:24  It's amusing that Jolly and Melv think they know more about the EU than JR-M and keep repeating the mantra that all Leavers are thick which any fool but a foolish Remainer would realise is false.----------------------------------------------------------------------... can tell you for a fact I know more about the EU than JR-M - and I'm no expert. So it wouldn't be hard. He has brushed-up a bit lately, but his lack of knowledge was, at one stage, astounding.Meanwhile in the real world where I work - the final decisions where whole sections are going to work are underway. Many involved want Paris, and not Amsterdam, Dublin or Frankfurt. Lots of tensions there - as the company for costs reasons / employment reasons dont want Paris. But what is certain its bye bye to UK - cant wait any longer. Its over. Some very unhappy people as you would expect.Significant job losses - but they will be minor in comparison to the next 10-12 years as all the recruitment will no longer be focused in UK. Spending a lot of time in Dublin as part of the one of the moves - cranes everywhere there. This is real stuff and real money moving behind the scenes.


I don't think Moggy really knows less than anyone on here about the EU. The very intelligent man that he undoubtedly is merely chooses to not present his knowledge and distorts instead.

Report treetop September 7, 2018 11:39 AM BST
Banks making plans to cover themselves is normal business practice, Brussels calling the shots with tighter regulation will dwarf any savings and their base will be fluid again. The EU may well think they can bully UK but if we had politicians in place prepared to retaliate they may suffer most and the squealing would be heard all over Berlin and Paris.The idiots in Brussels are prepared to play brinkmanship and endanger all our economic wealth in order to pursue an integrated,political dream instead of looking after their own people who are twice as likely to be unemployed as UK but want even more immigrants to come in and dilute the national identities that they fear may jeopardise the dream.
Report unitedbiscuits September 7, 2018 1:09 PM BST
What Wallflower describes is rather more than that, treeptop.
Only a few thousand will have left the City and be in place elsewhere in the EU on 29th March but these are high-value posts in the vanguard of the movement. The support will be built around them in far greater numbers, as time goes by.
Report Foinavon September 7, 2018 1:30 PM BST
Conflicting opinions about Mogg from remainers. I posted the link to Mogg's open letter to arch-remainer Lerd Adonis. He would hardly have published the letter if it was inaccurate or contained holes by omission which could be easily picked.

For some time now, the EU have been proposing a financial transaction tax which has been strongly resisted by the UK and Sweden. After the UK leave the EU there will be much less resistance to this being implemented. I'm sure that the Square Mile is fully aware of this.
Report edy September 7, 2018 2:40 PM BST
jolly, who is a leaver btw., picked at some of the holes.

Also, the use of "everyone knows" in the last paragraph....I mean...c'mon, mate. What way will the British economy be reformed in too?
Report Foinavon September 7, 2018 3:05 PM BST

Also, the use of "everyone knows" in the last paragraph....I mean...c'mon, mate. What way will the British economy be reformed in too?


Yes, perhaps...maybe everyone ought to know that the EU is a failing economic model.

As for the last question, perhaps you should ask him. The letter is on his Twitter account.
Report edy September 7, 2018 3:12 PM BST
Why ask him when I can ask you? Since you know, like everyone else oughta know, that the economic models found across the various EU member states are all failing, you must have an idea on what models are not failing, i.e know which way the British economy should be reformed.
Report lfc1971 September 7, 2018 3:28 PM BST
The London property market is propped up by billions of pounds every year we give in tax to subsidise it
The high end market is neither here nor there , it’s a seperate  market
Report lfc1971 September 7, 2018 3:32 PM BST
no more borrowing for a start , that is the most important thing for any new economy , we can only spend what we earn
The sooner we realise that the better
Report lfc1971 September 7, 2018 3:34 PM BST
Forget about banks generating wealth , banks follow were the wealth is
No where else , they are a natural consequence not the cause of wealth , they do not create it
Report lfc1971 September 7, 2018 3:35 PM BST
Every bank can leave London tomorrow , and everyone will be replaced
Report lfc1971 September 7, 2018 3:43 PM BST
The high street bank.? it is what it is

Investment  banks ? That remains exactly the same , it’s global and it will not be any easier or harder to make money in London or Paris or Frankfurt or anywhere else I can assure you
Report edy September 7, 2018 3:44 PM BST
So the decades of domestic policymaking towards a very, very service-centric, london-centric economy should be reversed and you'd like a reform towards training people for the producing sector again? (much of your production training infrastructure was torn apart the last few decades if I remember correctly...)
Report lfc1971 September 7, 2018 3:46 PM BST
Britain is and always has been a diverse economy , you see we are good at everything
That won’t change
Report edy September 7, 2018 3:48 PM BST
Good isn't good enough. In a man eats man world, you need to be excellent.
Report lfc1971 September 7, 2018 3:49 PM BST
That sounds like too much trouble , good is fine
Report Foinavon September 7, 2018 3:56 PM BST
The failing economic model is the eurozone since the currency union doesn't have a surplus recycling mechanism, thus plunging the weaker economies into permanent recession. It's fully explained in Varoufakis' books.
It's one of the reasons why I voted to leave as I don't want the UK embroiled in it.

The "ought to know" referred to the above. There will be plenty of opinions on how the British economy should be reformed, even McDonnell has one which is why I refer you to JRM for something more sensible.

Not paying large amounts of tribute to the EU will be good for a start and we could reform our tariff structure to suit our needs and economy. An import duty on meat and dairy imports will reduce competition from EU producers and help our farmers and we could eliminate tariffs on goods we don't produce ourselves such as citrus fruit. We will no longer need to pay higher prices to protect Spanish producers for example.
Report edy September 7, 2018 4:11 PM BST
Can you list all these weaker economies out of the EU28 and their growth rates to show they're in permanent recession?

What will the reunited Commonwealth of Australia and New Zealand think about you becoming protectionist in regards to meat and dairy? Cheaper oranges sounds good though.
Report unitedbiscuits September 7, 2018 4:15 PM BST
There are many different arguments but, as a rule of thumb, heed the simple FX maxim:
Everytime a Brexiter opens his mouth, £ falls.
Because Brexit is s**t and a Brexiter fails at everything put in front of him.
Report Foinavon September 7, 2018 4:35 PM BST
Just look at the youth unemployment figures edy.
We are already highly protectionist on meat and dairy while in the EU, the main competition comes from EU producers. If we can not negotiate a free trade deal then we can decide our own tariffs, not necessarily as high as the EU ones.
We will see what the government comes up with when we leave.
Report edy September 7, 2018 4:42 PM BST
Youth Unemployment and permanent recession aren't the same thing. So can you give us a list and growth (or degrowth in that case) numbers to show that all weaker economies in the eurozone are in permanent recession?

Blaming youth unemployment primarily on the € instead of structural deficiencies makes it a bit easy for the domestic governments and their misguided policies too.
Report unitedbiscuits September 7, 2018 4:42 PM BST
IF we leave.
Most in the UK don't want to.
Report edy September 7, 2018 4:43 PM BST
What's it with people always being super eager to bail out domestic politicians?
Report lfc1971 September 7, 2018 4:53 PM BST
What you have to realise is people in Germany are becoming poorer , slowly quickly
people in Europe are becoming poorer , the model is failing because it has been reliant on America , and Britain their economies and people to some extent
But it can’t continue because it has put too much stress on the American people and British people , unfortunately times up
Report unitedbiscuits September 7, 2018 4:53 PM BST
Yes, you're right, edy.
Greece, for example, definitely made the right decision three years back, to stay within the strictures of the Euro rather than heed the call of the hedge-funds to revert to the Drachma. Think what fun they could have had shorting that currency!! Ireland sensibly avoided being gamed in the same way. The big prize is the UK. The disaster-capitalists have already f**ked £ once - the day after the ref was the biggest fall of any major currency since Bretton-Woods - but they are salivating at the prospect of an even greater windfall on the night of "no deal" Brexit.
Report lfc1971 September 7, 2018 5:01 PM BST
The EU gas not only failed economically , it has failed culturally and in all aspects of life no matter how you dress it up
Those are the simple realities it’s hiw it is by any measure you care to choose
Report lfc1971 September 7, 2018 5:03 PM BST
That is simply the direction of travel , it is failing and it will continue to fail unless it changes everything
Report unitedbiscuits September 7, 2018 5:15 PM BST
If only lfc1971 had more credibility.
Leavers yearn for the demise of the EU. Comically, the scowling bulldog face of Brexit only serves to unite the EU27.
Nicht wahr, edy?
Report edy September 7, 2018 5:46 PM BST
lfc likes the EU and wants it to thrive alongside the UK :)
Report edy September 7, 2018 5:46 PM BST
or alongside England at least.
Report unitedbiscuits September 7, 2018 5:58 PM BST
It doesn't matter what you "want", it only matters what you do.
Late remainer lfc1971 turned-coat close to the advisory 2016 ref.
He cannot now admit his mistake.
Lfc1971 is destined to be the Man In The Iron Mask, unable to reveal his true feelings; forever trapped in the nightmare Brexit caravan.
Report Foinavon September 7, 2018 6:15 PM BST
Edy, I've put together a graph of gdp of a few eurozone countries since the introduction of the euro. Not exactly been stellar has it? You can add other countries and change the timeframe as you wish.

https://www.google.co.uk/publicdata/explore?ds=d5bncppjof8f9_&met_y=ny_gdp_mktp_kd_zg&hl=en&dl=en#!ctype=l&strail=false&bcs=d&nselm=h&met_y=ny_gdp_mktp_kd_zg&scale_y=lin&ind_y=false&rdim=country&idim=country:FRA:ITA:PRT:GRC&ifdim=country&tstart=999817200000&tend=1504738800000&hl=en_US&dl=en&ind=false

Blaming youth employment on domestic politics is the German get out of jail card. The single currency has a lot to do with it.
Report edy September 7, 2018 6:19 PM BST
Is that permanent recession?
Report edy September 7, 2018 6:22 PM BST
Also, everyone knows, or everyone ought to know, that the primary reason for youth unemployment lies in the domestic education and training systems.
Report edy September 7, 2018 6:23 PM BST
along with labour market policies.
Report unitedbiscuits September 7, 2018 6:24 PM BST
foinavon Firstly
Why compare only  France/Italy/Portugal 1960 to now?
Mystifying.
Report Foinavon September 7, 2018 6:28 PM BST
It would be too cluttered to put all the countries in. you can add and subtract countries using the tools on the side and change the timeframe using the curser at the bottom.
Report edy September 7, 2018 6:28 PM BST
You can't just blame 30-40% youth unemployment primarily on the €, when other Eurozone countries with a smaller or comparable economy, countries that are not called Germany either, have less than 10%. Even less
Report edy September 7, 2018 6:29 PM BST

Sep 7, 2018 -- 12:28PM, Foinavon wrote:


It would be too cluttered to put all the countries in. you can add and subtract countries using the tools on the side and change the timeframe using the curser at the bottom.


Geez, just say already that there is no country in permanent recession. How hard can it be, buddy?

Report Foinavon September 7, 2018 6:29 PM BST
Everyone is watching and waiting UB. Give them time.
Report jollyswagman September 7, 2018 6:33 PM BST
foinavon, i make no claim to be an expert but i have done a fair bit of reading, for example the eu notices to stake holders (fortunately they arent very long).

not only do i not  'keep repeating the mantra that all Leavers are thick which any fool but a foolish Remainer would realise is false.' i havent said such a thing once. for the umpteenth time, i voted to leave. in my first post on the wto thread i called remainers hoping for another referendum stupid and i called the brexit ultras who think we can leave and just carry on regardless stupid. i think we'd agree that's completely different to what you posted.

my problem isnt with leaving the eu its with the inept way the negotiations are being handled by our politicians, reported on by our media and just to complete the hat trick i think many senior business leaders are clueless too.

jrm is far from alone in his ignorance, i'll repost some of the the report gutfeeling put up on the wto thread - the secretary of state for transport hasnt got a clue either -

Road haulage firms have accused Chris Grayling, the transport secretary, of failing to put in place any credible contingency plans for a 'no-deal' Brexit scenario, as well as "knowing nothing" about their industry.

Speaking to the Telegraph, industry leaders said they were left astonished in recent meetings with Mr Grayling where he appeared to be unaware that British lorry drivers would not be able to carry goods on the continent if the UK crashes out of the bloc.


i made several points about jrm's letter you havent replied to any of them. please just answer one question - jrm says when we leave flights will carry on as they do now, so why are the government in negotiations with the usa government to make a deal on flights?


edy, i have considered that jrm may purposely be telling lies but as of yet there is no evidence so i'll assume he's just yet another expensively educated idiot (the tories have lots of them). if you are right then he is evil.
Report unitedbiscuits September 7, 2018 6:45 PM BST
Everyone is watching and waiting UB. Give them time.

Thank you, I have tried your graph in multiple combinations. Each is meaningless, since it does not give a relative starting point.

Here is a better example:
A has 10 coins
B has ten coins
B's coins have become worth 15% less than A's coins.
B is poorer than A.
Correct?
Report jollyswagman September 7, 2018 6:46 PM BST
pmsl i've just read that the useless grayling is planning on negotiating 27 separate agreements with the eu countries if we end up with no deal. someone needs to tell him the eu has a common external aviation policy which is managed by the commission. what does this fool spend his time doing?
Report Foinavon September 7, 2018 6:46 PM BST
Jolly, I can't read all of your post as my screen truncates beyond a certain width.
Some sort of formatting problem. (the width cuts after the word long on your top line.
Apologies for linking you in with the abusive comments, I picked that up from one or two
others. Can you repeat the JRM/flights question please?
Report jollyswagman September 7, 2018 6:49 PM BST
no worries foinavon.

in his letter rm says flights will carry on as they do now when we leave, so why is the government in negotiations with the usa (and many others) about new agreements?
Report Foinavon September 7, 2018 7:08 PM BST
I can't answer that Jolly. Preparations in case of no deal will include re-registering a lot of data.
May has said there will be a deal in which case it will be superfluous but they have to cover for all
eventualities.
Report Foinavon September 7, 2018 7:11 PM BST
It's a pity you can't discuss that with Harold Wilson UB.
Report unitedbiscuits September 7, 2018 7:14 PM BST
Leavers ague now as Wilson did 50 yrs ago.
Report Foinavon September 7, 2018 7:25 PM BST
Let's see what happens to the pound when Corbyn gets elected.
Report jollyswagman September 7, 2018 7:26 PM BST
i believe the government has nearly reached a deal with the usa and canada to replace the eu -us open skies agreement or as you would say they have nearly re-registered a lot of data.
Report Foinavon September 7, 2018 7:33 PM BST
Yes, I've seen the EU stakeholder notices, the USA probably have something similar.

I was involved in some work around 1990 with my old employer (a large chemical company) in preparation for the
single market following Maastricht. A lot of tedium involved.
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