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InsiderTrader
21 May 18 17:02
Joined:
Date Joined: 25 Aug 05
| Topic/replies: 44,644 | Blogger: InsiderTrader's blog
We are now basically being told that because of just over a million people in NI and a few more in EIRE that we have to have no hard border in Ireland.

With no hard border we cannot have trade deals with the Commonwealth and America. The new world is out of our reach.

Why are they only telling us this now? Even Blair and Major that went to NI never told us this.

Surely this was REMAINS's trump card in the referendum yet they made nothing of it in the campaign.

Why whenever a leaver said about trading with the new world did leavers not tell us it would be impossible due to Ireland?

This whole Irish problem that has sprung up makes no sense.
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Report lfc1971 May 26, 2018 11:13 AM BST
pineapple this isn’t good , you should be looking forward to the match tonight and forgetting about all this
Enjoy the day : )
Report InsiderTrader May 26, 2018 11:27 AM BST
PorcupineorPineapple
26 May 18 11:04
Joined: 03 Dec 15
| Topic/replies: 4,791 | Blogger: PorcupineorPineapple's blog
So it's down to constituencies now?

So do you think Scotland should be able to opt out?

^

Very funny.

The point is a 2/3 majority of MPs represent constituencies of the UK that voted to leave.
Report PorcupineorPineapple May 26, 2018 11:44 AM BST
Yes, and they are elected because we think they are the best and brightest who, when given the facts of an issue, are best placed to make the right decision.


We operate a representative democracy, not a direct one.
Report enpassant May 26, 2018 11:57 AM BST
If leave is all that matters to you and not the demolition of the public services ect then all of you should vote UKIP surely ?

Since brexit is going arze upwards now it is a wonder then that UKIP have been obliterated across the country.

There is no stomach for it anymore and the sooner hard-liners accept it the sooner we can move on from this sorry episode of populist nonsense.
Report InsiderTrader May 26, 2018 12:11 PM BST
PorcupineorPineapple
26 May 18 11:44
Joined: 03 Dec 15
| Topic/replies: 4,792 | Blogger: PorcupineorPineapple's blog
Yes, and they are elected because we think they are the best and brightest who, when given the facts of an issue, are best placed to make the right decision.


We operate a representative democracy, not a direct one.

^

So on the only issue we have been given a direct vote in decades you think MPs should ignore have their direct voters voted?

In that case what is the point of referendums?

There was non of this nonsense when people signed up to it the EEC in 1975.

In ROI we will have to see if they ignore the referendum they has yesterday.
Report PorcupineorPineapple May 26, 2018 12:17 PM BST
Firstly, the information since the vote two years ago should surely be taken into account. Secondly, a lot of the faffing about has been over terms of our departure and future relationship not necessarily rowing back and saying to ignore the vote.


Though those that are of that opinion are generally saying that it's on the basis of the landscape changing, and that protecting our economy, jobs and NHS is more important than respecting a referendum vote.
Report Foinavon May 26, 2018 1:05 PM BST
The EU's idea of a deal is to punish the UK pour encourager les autres.
If we wish to protect our economy then we have to take the better option which is to withdraw without a deal, trade on WTO terms and spend the 40 billion ransom on our own needs.

I'm still waiting for someone to tell me why they think the evil empire is so wonderful.
Report jed.davison May 26, 2018 1:29 PM BST
You will be waiting a long time.

PorP, the result of the referendum is more important than any NOTIONAL damage done to the economy.
Report Foinavon May 26, 2018 2:03 PM BST
Yes, and they are the ones who say we didn't know what we were voting for.
That we are stupid, uneducated, racist even, for wanting to leave.
They are wrong on every count.
Report enpassant May 26, 2018 2:28 PM BST
^Why did they not tell us Trade deals were impossible due to Ireland BEFORE Brexit vote?



oops
Report InsiderTrader May 26, 2018 2:40 PM BST
PorcupineorPineapple
26 May 18 12:17
Joined: 03 Dec 15
| Topic/replies: 4,793 | Blogger: PorcupineorPineapple's blog
Firstly, the information since the vote two years ago should surely be taken into account. Secondly, a lot of the faffing about has been over terms of our departure and future relationship not necessarily rowing back and saying to ignore the vote.


Though those that are of that opinion are generally saying that it's on the basis of the landscape changing, and that protecting our economy, jobs and NHS is more important than respecting a referendum vote.

^

We had the 'economy, jobs and NHS' debate before the referendum and remainers lost despite saying just losing the ref would result in anything from WW3 to an instance recession with a punishment budget.

There is no new information. What is the new information? We have not even started talking trade deals yet.
Report jed.davison May 26, 2018 3:22 PM BST
The sad fact is that these people are just anti-democratic Fifth Columnists. Really, they should be interned until our future relationship with the EU is settled, lest they continue to act for the other side whilst we are negotiating.

And then, when the negotiations are complete, they can be shot.
Report moisok May 26, 2018 9:45 PM BST
You do realise most of these remainers have very good PERSONAL reasons to being anti brexit
Report moisok May 26, 2018 9:46 PM BST
some don't even live in the uk - that tells a tale does it not

eu bottom lickers ho ho
Report donny osmond May 27, 2018 12:00 PM BST
some of the brexiteers dont live in the uk
Report PorcupineorPineapple May 27, 2018 1:47 PM BST
or have gotten themselves shiny new EU passports to ensure they're better protected than everyone else.
Report Whisperingdeath May 29, 2018 4:54 PM BST
Foinavon 26 May 18 14:03

Yes, and they are the ones who say we didn't know what we were voting for.
That we are stupid, uneducated, racist even, for wanting to leave.
They are wrong on every count.


erm I am not so sure I agree with you there Foinavon!

Laugh
Report Foinavon May 29, 2018 5:24 PM BST
No prizes for guessing which way you voted, WD Wink
Report treetop May 29, 2018 9:59 PM BST
We knew exactly why we voted after a sustained campaign of Fear and intimidation by our establishment,media and government of the day. The farcical tour of Europe by Cameron with a begging bowl should have told us all about the futility of trying to change the political direction of Brussels.
Report FatherMaguire May 29, 2018 10:03 PM BST
They only labelled it Project Fear because they couldnt answer any of the questions that were being asked (and still can't)
Report treetop May 29, 2018 10:07 PM BST
There weren't many question,merely a succession of diktats from the Treasury via Osborne about doom and gloom.Most of which have been untrue to date,it would appear.
Report flushgordon1 June 2, 2018 11:38 AM BST
The Donald has just done a trade deal did not take long , he said we are putting tariffs on your steel.  No years of posturing just doing what your politicians are meant to do protect your own people.
Report Wallflower June 2, 2018 12:58 PM BST
Tick tock.

I see the Irish have given us two weeks to get something down in writing before June summit, or its NI into EU (backstop). Should be fun.

1. Capitulate ("NI under EU regulation thank you very much.....next question?")
2- Stay in SM / CU  ("Go to the back of the room, just  be quiet and do what you are told")
3- No deal (just f*ck off and stop annoying the rest of us)

There's the available choices - as predicted EU not listening to any half-baked "cake and eat it" options from us.
Report Foinavon June 2, 2018 1:57 PM BST
Option 3 would be wonderful if we can achieve it.

The Irish are a fleabite on the @rse end of Europe and will be rightly sh@t upon when all this is over.
Meanwhile I maintain my personal embargo on their goods.
Report Wallflower June 2, 2018 2:17 PM BST
I hope its option 3 tooCool. There is absolutely nothing stopping us - EU wouldn't or couldn't stop us either. They just want us to tell them what is we want (but of course we don't knowShocked, even after two years). Its a circular conversation.

I find it hard to blame the Irish really - they are perfectly entitled to look after their own interests I suppose - they have an international treaty with us, told us beforehand, and for TWO years have asked for clarity. What else do you think they should do?

My problem with them - (though its a unintended consequence) is that they will scupper a hard Brexit and any chance of Scottish Independence in the immediate term. The only hope is that all our silly suggestions continue to be re-buffed are forced into hard Brexit (then make a virtue out of it).
Report flushgordon1 June 2, 2018 2:34 PM BST
Scottish independence is not going to happen ,no surrender to the provisional snp.
Report Foinavon June 2, 2018 2:36 PM BST
The Irish government are going beyond the realm of reason with this, effectively claiming for themselves a veto over Brexit. What we don't know is what goes on behind the scenes with the British government and May might find this convenient with her strategy to drag this out until we are all sick and tired of it.
Report donny osmond June 2, 2018 3:22 PM BST
why would we waste 2 or more years and then no deal?

noel edmonds could do better than that
Report Wallflower June 2, 2018 3:33 PM BST
(Scottish independence will inevitably happen - I just hope to be around when it does).  Anyway........

I have my suspicions about May too (remainer, ditherer, just wants to be PM in peace) - I wouldn't be surprised if the "preservation of the UK" is used as excuse to stay in SM/CU. Some in Tory party secretly delighted about the "Irish problem". However - you didn't answer the question what should the Irish have done / do?  The Irish cant economically or politically say - that's alright just stick a border back down the island again - its fine. They can't ignore it either. I work quite a bit over there from time to time - I was asked what you do if you were Ireland - thinking about it, exactly what they have done - highlight in advance and ask the UK for a workable proposal that still honours the existing agreement between them.

Of course they know the difficulty - but what else can they do?
Report Foinavon June 2, 2018 3:52 PM BST
They know an electronic system is workable, as it is now between the Eurozone and Stirling zone. There's next to nothing traded across the land border in the greater scheme of things. They have been encouraged to be the EU's barking dog and have enthusiastically come to heel instead of leaving the negotiations to Barnier's team. Some of them, especially that granny who should be at home knitting, seem to be enjoying their five minutes in the spotlight. I hope it comes back to bite them.
Report lfc1971 June 2, 2018 4:40 PM BST
haha poor old wallflower is completely delusional if he thinks he’s going to live to see an independent Scotland
Report Foinavon June 2, 2018 4:43 PM BST
Scotland does quite well out of the Sterling zone, I think they would find the Eurozone far less accommodating.
Report lfc1971 June 2, 2018 4:48 PM BST
Don’t forget the Republic of Ireland never voted to leave , they didn’t want to either but were bullied out of it ,
That’s the danger Scotland faces from the SNP and others of course
Report lfc1971 June 2, 2018 4:51 PM BST
in the modern world it will need votes, that is something the republicans and nationalists don’t ever seem to realise
the Scottish people I can assure you will never vote to leave  the Union , too sensible
Report InsiderTrader June 2, 2018 5:10 PM BST
Wallflower
02 Jun 18 15:33
Joined: 01 Nov 04
| Topic/replies: 5,853 | Blogger: Wallflower's blog
(Scottish independence will inevitably happen - I just hope to be around when it does).  Anyway........

I have my suspicions about May too (remainer, ditherer, just wants to be PM in peace) - I wouldn't be surprised if the "preservation of the UK" is used as excuse to stay in SM/CU. Some in Tory party secretly delighted about the "Irish problem". However - you didn't answer the question what should the Irish have done / do?  The Irish cant economically or politically say - that's alright just stick a border back down the island again - its fine. They can't ignore it either. I work quite a bit over there from time to time - I was asked what you do if you were Ireland - thinking about it, exactly what they have done - highlight in advance and ask the UK for a workable proposal that still honours the existing agreement between them.

Of course they know the difficulty - but what else can they do?

^

They could show the UK some respect and sit down and try and work out a solution together. This is the reality:
1. We are leaving the SM and CU.
2. We want to work on having no 'hard' border.

Given both of those they can either work with us and find a solution or keep shouting thinking they will get us to remove condition 1.

At the moment they are acting like little kid in playground talking tough to a stronger kid because they have their big brother standing behind them. If and when their big brother is no longer there they not in a good situation. They are not thinking long term. This can be sorted out very easily they are accept the red lines and work on a solution with the UK.
Report lfc1971 June 2, 2018 5:49 PM BST
Look the Scots and Irish are going to have to realise that they can’t get any real jobs in Europe , they can in the UK
That’s life .
Report akabula June 2, 2018 6:41 PM BST
Scottish independence will inevitably happen - I just hope to be around when it does

Their view of the future hasn't went down too well within their own ranks let alone the Union voters.
10 to 25 years of austerity before they arrive back at their starting position is bad enough but the experts have rubbished the early growth hopes making it even worse.
Remember we're BETTER TOGETHER.
Report flushgordon1 June 2, 2018 7:30 PM BST
Tell you what wallflower you and the rest of the Indy mob can puss of to norm irn and we will have the unionists here, you can unite Ireland be independent from Britain and live on dreams and poteen.
Report Whisperingdeath June 3, 2018 5:19 PM BST
Whisperingdeath 29 May 18 16:54
Foinavon 26 May 18 14:03

Yes, and they are the ones who say we didn't know what we were voting for.
That we are stupid, uneducated, racist even, for wanting to leave.
They are wrong on every count.

erm I am not so sure I agree with you there Foinavon!

Laugh



No prizes for guessing which way you voted, WD [:wink:]

I might take you for a shilling on that Foinavon unless you are trying to spoof me!

I live in Kent. I know the effect of mass uncontrolled immigration. So do many of my friends who are stupid, uneducated and some would say racist.  A real basket of deplorables if ever there was one. I wouldn't trust most of them with my wallet, to sit on the toilet the right way and certainly not with my wife! Although in their defence and just so foreigners understand. They don't hate you because you are foreign, they hate everybody! As long as you buy your round you are one of them, black, white or brown and they won't have it it if someone tries to put you down or worse.

I also frequent West London. They were in denial. I got 8's on Betfair for Leave following dinner on the night of the vote with a Banker who thought nobody would be stupid enough to vote Leave!!

I voted Leave not because I hate foreigners but this Country belongs to us, not the rich and the Royals.

We have no chance of getting it back with the EU which will crumble in any case.
Report Foinavon June 3, 2018 6:57 PM BST
There are the good, the bad and the ugly in all walks of life and on both sides of the Brexit debate. We are all human beings.
I hope you won your shilling on the Test match today, I was stupid enough to back England in both.
Report Foinavon June 3, 2018 7:12 PM BST
BTW the "no prizes" comment was a bit of fun and deliberately equivocal as you suspected.
Report pa lapsy June 4, 2018 12:35 AM BST
Great post Whisperingdeath(17.19),very true.

I am in agreement with your sentiment in regards you want your country belongs to "you",right too.
No pity though,6 counties in the North of Ireland have been under occupation for a long time now, nothing right about that and i would believe if a democratic referendum on the island of Britain took place tomorrow those 6 counties would be repatriated as doubt anyone on the "mainland" really cares too much,so many pros.
Ironic now the whole "border" issue, a very different angle but maybe the EU have a totally different view than the crown does?
Report Whisperingdeath June 4, 2018 3:49 PM BST
Thank you lapsy!

I can't say I have a view on Northern Ireland or The Six Counties. Far too complicated. I know some of the history but living there must be different. Sad that two Christian communites can find so much to hate about each other. My hope is that younger people don't learn or refuse to accept the bigotry of their parents. I also despair for Palestinians who want to be martyred. Shirley if they want to honour their parents sacrifice they should try and lead a full and wonderful life.
Report Foinavon June 4, 2018 3:54 PM BST
Moisok would tell you that deeply religious communities are quick to take a fence. This is because their God tells them how things have to be done and neither man nor anybody else's God is going to tell them any different.
Report bigpoppapump June 4, 2018 4:46 PM BST

So on the only issue we have been given a direct vote in decades you think MPs should ignore have their direct voters voted?


The 2016 Referendum was actually Cameron's 3rd Ref since 2010.  He held them on PR, in Scotland and then the EU.

I'll give IT the benefit and assume he's simply someone who doesn't pay attention rather than a liar.
Report Whisperingdeath June 4, 2018 6:56 PM BST
It seems to me that many MP's want to remain. The Political Parties themselves are too afraid to have a clear concise policy for fear of offending voters. I mean I think Labour really want to remain but are fearful of the working class vote that voted to leave. As such should we go to the Ballot Box there will be no clear choice if you want to leave or remain.

I think we have had the vote and result. MP's should decide. If they go against the Referendum result then we have the option to replace them at the Election. Correspondingly if you want to remain you should be mobilising MP's and ensure Parliament is packed with remainer's to block and make difficult an exit from the single market.
Report akabula June 4, 2018 7:34 PM BST
No surprise that pa lapsy looks to the UK to give him his dream of an united Ireland as there is no real appetite in either the North or South of Ireland at this time for change. )(diehards excepted)
But lets assume that it did happen. Unless the UK backed the move financially then Ireland would be bankrupt almost immediately.
So Ireland can never really be a free country as they rely so heavily on the rest of the UK for support.
Report pa lapsy June 4, 2018 7:56 PM BST
^ So if Ireland would be bankrupted,you are admitting that N I is very costly to the UK taxpayer?
Surely all the more reason for a referendum concerning keeping it? Won't most people be delighted with a few pound extra instead of subsidising it?

I have no dreams now concerning a united Ireland, it was taken by force as i'm sure even your history books agree,you can deflect til the cows come home but that is the simple crux.
Report akabula June 4, 2018 8:07 PM BST
Of course it is a financial strain on the rest of the UK and the ROIers aren't daft as they know it would be as big a drain on them.
In respect of a referendum on the mainland then that must be a first, a republican wanting the British to determine his future.
I'm sure that's the last thing you would want. Grin
As regards the taken by force then I'm in agreement with you. I mean but for the 'rebels' early last century we would still have a United Ireland in the Union.
Report lfc1971 June 4, 2018 8:12 PM BST
And of course should N Ireland become independent  , they could continue to consider themselves to be British
Rather like the millions living and working in England consider themselves to be Irish
That’s fine , that seems to be to be fair
Report pa lapsy June 4, 2018 8:22 PM BST
I,d have a bet on "the men of Kent" at short enough odds.

LFC1971, yes i agree,leave N I off on its own.
Report lfc1971 June 4, 2018 8:24 PM BST
What you have to realise is if you are in a country of 1.5million people, and you are surrounded by a market place of 70 or 80 million people with completely free access and equal rights and advantages as any other citizen
Then you are in a very good situation , perhaps a better one than those in other parts of the UK
Even if in theory you are independent
Report akabula June 4, 2018 10:23 PM BST
About time we revisited all agreements with the ROI and us leaving the EU is the perfect time to do it.
I'd love to hear the arguments for keeping the status quo.
Report pa lapsy June 4, 2018 10:27 PM BST
What do you want to do with the 112,000 British citizens living and working in the Republic?

What do you want to do to all the British citizens living and working in Spain,France,Australia etc?

Send them all back to the UK?
Report akabula June 4, 2018 10:35 PM BST
Similar to what's going to happen between the EU and the UK a reciprocal arrangement can be agreed.
The future rights would be a different matter though.
Report pa lapsy June 4, 2018 10:41 PM BST
Oh right, shure you are after letting in half of India and Pakistan along with the rest of former colonies that also had the right to move, bit late now.
Report akabula June 4, 2018 10:44 PM BST
What's that got to do with the UK/ROI agreements?
Report pa lapsy June 4, 2018 10:58 PM BST
Yes,maybe i shouldn't have gone on a tangent, so what about the British citizens living in Eire? "riciprocal arrangement"s,what exactly are you proposing? "Future rights" what do you want done there? Just hot air isn't it?
Report lfc1971 June 4, 2018 10:59 PM BST
Did you ever hear such nonsense, those other countries do not and will not have the automatic right to live and work in Britain
Don’t concern yourself with Britain and what it does , if you want an independent Ireland as you are always claiming the Irish republic should accept what that means
Report lfc1971 June 4, 2018 11:00 PM BST
EIRE can do what I wants , so pipe down about that
Report pa lapsy June 4, 2018 11:03 PM BST
You haven't answered the 112'000 British citizens rights to live and work in Ireland, by your logic quid pro quo you are saying they have no right.
You saying that right should be stopped also lfc?
Report lfc1971 June 4, 2018 11:04 PM BST
You’re not listening are you, I couldn’t give two hoots what the ROI does
Report akabula June 4, 2018 11:06 PM BST
I'm waiting on your argument for keeping the current arrangements.
Report pa lapsy June 4, 2018 11:09 PM BST
Well that is your problem, you expect your own way and it never is a one way street, fwiw most would be welcome there and if they decided it was a better class of life well done to them, i must go.
Report akabula June 4, 2018 11:12 PM BST
So in other words you have no argument to put forward.
Report lfc1971 June 4, 2018 11:12 PM BST
And there you have the problem with the Irish , they want all the rights and privileges of being part of Britain
But they want independence without responsibility or consequence
Report lfc1971 June 4, 2018 11:17 PM BST
ok in fairness it’s difficult  to decipher what he meant ,
Report akabula June 4, 2018 11:20 PM BST
Yes that and his first post where he used the terms under occupation and the Crown Actually had me laughing out loud.
Report edy June 5, 2018 6:49 AM BST

Jun 4, 2018 -- 5:12PM, lfc1971 wrote:


And there you have the problem with the Irish , they want all the rights and privileges of being part of Britain But they want independence without responsibility or consequence


These people wanting to have their cake while also eating it disgust me.

Report lfc1971 June 5, 2018 8:03 AM BST
And why should it disgust you ? It’s not an unusual vice
Unfortunately for them and the EU times up
Report sageform June 5, 2018 8:14 AM BST
Nobody should have the "right" to live in a different country unless they have gone through the correct procedure to get a long term work visa or a change of nationality. British people in Ireland would be no different. If the Irish Government wish them to stay they will give them the necessary paperwork.
Report Charlton2005 June 12, 2018 8:00 PM BST
Responding only to the OP (haven't read anything else on here).

I was a maths, stats and actuarial science lecturer for 15 years and dealt with thousands of students. The clever ones went into pure and applied maths, physics, finance, engineering etc. Courses rich in LOGIC.

The not so clever ones went into law, economics, social sciences etc. Courses with no requirement for logic.

Unfortunately, politicians are drawn almost exclusively from the latter group and hence

(1) lack logic to a large degree and (2) are not very bright

Thus we find ourselves asking questions like "why did no one think of this years ago?"
Report Wallflower June 12, 2018 9:57 PM BST
lfc1971       04 Jun 18 23:12   

And there you have the problem with the Irish , they want all the rights and privileges of being part of Britain
But they want independence without responsibility or consequence

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Oh FFS.

(I didn't know this until a few months ago but anyway thats not the point..........)

The common travel area and the idea that the Irish (Republic of) are not "foreign" was at the behest of us after their independence, and quite difficult for them politically. But they agreed and reciprocated. We automatically have full welfare, employment, voting and pension rights in the Republic of Ireland

There are very good reasons for all of this - one of which was to accommodate the unionists in Northern Ireland. Its a mini-schengen arrangement (at BRITISH request !!!) that pre-dates the EU.

I'm a bit cranky at the moment for other reasons, and I do normally allow some of your "uninformed" (to say the least) ramblings to pass over me, but the crankiness isn't allowing me on this occasion. Apologies.

Go off and find out why this arrangement exists, and its history between UK and Ireland, and stop jabbering on about this on practically every thread. Its not an issue for anyone only you it seems.
Report Wallflower June 12, 2018 10:06 PM BST
While I'm here - Hard Brexit is dead and buried now (not what's making me cranky - but doesn't help.

I started another thread months ago - Irish border is the rock on which Brexit will perish (or something like that), and I still believe this.

This won't be resolved (irish border being the main, but not only point) - no deal - Parliament now steps in - complete roll-back started today.

Current government is the most indecisive, uninformed, unimpressive, amateurish ever assembled - strangely its probably better than the opposition. Its a complete and utter embarrassing shambles - I'd defy anyone to say otherwise - regardless of their outlook.
Report akabula June 12, 2018 10:19 PM BST
@Charlton.
The UK public voted to leave the EU. That takes priority over everything else.
The Irish border question is nothing more than a consequence of that vote.

@Wallflower
Freedom of movement of people between the North and South is not an issue. Any non irish taking advantage of this is fine as they'll have no access to any benefits and would in effect merely be akin to holiday makers.
The only issue is control of goods and as has been said thousands of times an answer will be found.
It would help if the ROI stopped it's silly games and joined us in finding the solution.
Report akabula June 12, 2018 10:27 PM BST
In May 2017 2 senior ROI tax and custom officials stated that a technological solution with no physical custom posts at the border would work.
Varadkar took over in June and stopped them working on it.
Report lfc1971 June 12, 2018 10:28 PM BST
Wallflower doesn’t understand , there is no reason for Rep of Ireland citizens to enjoy the rights of British citizens to live and work in Britain

And he should understand that applies to the Scots as well should they ever vote for independence
And get that on the ballot paper
Report lfc1971 June 12, 2018 10:32 PM BST
You see wallflower the unionists in N Ireland didn’t have to be accomadate snow did they  , they were British and staying within the union
ROI citizens were not
Don’t confuse one with the other
Report lfc1971 June 12, 2018 10:38 PM BST
And of course no referendum for Scottish independence until this is agreed
We don’t want the Scots sponging off us for a  further 100 years like the Irish
Report Wallflower June 12, 2018 10:49 PM BST
lfc1971       12 Jun 18 22:28   

Wallflower doesn’t understand , there is no reason for Rep of Ireland citizens to enjoy the rights of British citizens to live and work in Britain
------------------------------

THERE IS A REASON. A few of them in fact, quite interesting really. Did you ever wonder why it was the case in the first place? Probably not.

You don't understand (as usual). The reasons, historical and practical, from their independence, through to WWII, plus EU membership, through staying intact through Schengen (as an exception - allowing UK and Ireland to both remain outside schengen)). And as I told you, it was at BRITISH request, not Irish.

If you are going to participate on a forum like this you do have some level of obligation to be informed on the things you discuss.
Report lfc1971 June 12, 2018 10:56 PM BST
Of course there are reasons , there were families and farms and business and property and a myriad of connections between Ireland and Britain
Because no one can remember Ireland before Britain , not you or anyone else on these islands
So if meant it was sensible , you couldn’t have an immediate disconnect that would be difficult

However that was then , and ynfirtubatedly  times up , or should be
Report lfc1971 June 12, 2018 10:57 PM BST
Any problem with that for Scottish independence as well ?
Report lfc1971 June 12, 2018 10:58 PM BST
Because if there is our better get them sorted before a referendum now hadn’t you ?
Report lfc1971 June 12, 2018 11:01 PM BST
And by the way you can forget that nonsense about it being a British request
It was inevitable and without it the independent Ireland wouldn’t have survived 10 years
Report lfc1971 June 12, 2018 11:04 PM BST
Any more history lessons you think you know about wallflower ?
Report Wallflower June 12, 2018 11:10 PM BST
It was a British request. End of. And for good reason.

I'm not going to write it all out, or cross -reference it. Do it yourself, understand the facts, not just what you want to believe.

In fact the common travel area (and rights really) which applied both ways was suspended during WWII and continued until 1952 - travel restrictions between GB and Ireland much to the "consternation" of the Unionists in NI. Irish and UK government then came to an arrangement to re-introduce.
Report lfc1971 June 12, 2018 11:12 PM BST
Wallflower you are getting mixed up between immigration rules and the right to live and work in Britain

They are not the same thing , go away and study a little harder
Report Wallflower June 12, 2018 11:18 PM BST
Again you are mixed-up, or more accurately uninformed. Don't be confused by the word "travel" in the agreement.

At its basic level (which might be appropriate here) - the arrangement (at British request (FACT!) and Irish agreement) is that for both countries neither of each others citizens are seen as a "foreigner". Hence Irish can immigrate to Britain and vote practically straight away, as can British in Ireland.

Since neither country considers the citizens of the other foreign - they naturally have full rights.

You're welcome, hope that helps.
Report lfc1971 June 12, 2018 11:23 PM BST
Now silly boy , everyone knows that, we know the Irish have had those rights to live and work in Ireland
But what you have been reading and quoting has nothing to do with that , that is about immigration and freedom of movement across borders between Ireland and Britain ,
Nothing to do with living and working in Britain

Now if you can’t be honest we are not going to get very far
Report akabula June 12, 2018 11:25 PM BST
I'm not going to write it all out

That's because he can't.
Report lfc1971 June 12, 2018 11:27 PM BST
To simplify it for you , it enabled Irish people north and south to move through customs and borders to Britain without hindrance , to some extent
But that does not mean they should not go back home , like any other tourist

That’s fine , they didn’t need to have the right to stay and live and work and vote
Not then, and not now
Report Wallflower June 12, 2018 11:31 PM BST
WTF are talking about!! - makes no sense.

What I explained to you is clear and simple. British citizens in Ireland are not deemed "foreign" so have the same rights in Ireland as Irish citizens. Irish  citizens in Britain are likewise not deemed "foreign" so have the same rights in Britain as British citizens.

And by the way you can take that "silly boy" remark and stick it up your hole, behaving like condescending pr1ck when you are exposed as talking through that same hole.
Report Wallflower June 12, 2018 11:33 PM BST
by Ireland I mean Republic of Ireland.

This is not hard to grasp.

(nothing to do specifically with Brexit/EU, other than May committed to keeping it in place).

Good night.
Report lfc1971 June 12, 2018 11:33 PM BST
We know they are not deemed as foreign , why not again ?
Report lfc1971 June 12, 2018 11:35 PM BST
poor wallflower , he must have been a very lazy history student : )
Report akabula June 12, 2018 11:44 PM BST
As his history teacher no doubt said to him on many an occasion He must try harder.
Report lfc1971 June 12, 2018 11:47 PM BST
Do you know, there is no point quoting words , If you don’t understand words

That will only make you sad
Report lfc1971 June 12, 2018 11:51 PM BST
ps I was a little condescending to him , but after he was to me so deserved it

He didn’t notice that , I don’t know why
Report lfc1971 June 12, 2018 11:54 PM BST
Heaven knows what rubbish he will come back with next time

I don’t think I had better answer him
Report lfc1971 June 12, 2018 11:56 PM BST
I’ll read it and keep quiet .
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