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Burt06
14 Feb 18 14:06
Joined:
Date Joined: 13 Dec 11
| Topic/replies: 249,661 | Blogger: Burt06's blog
That is the option before us all.

The 17.4 million mighty and noble Brexiteers have opted for the path of hope against fear. We will be internationalist, not nationalist, outward looking, not insular. We will engage with the world once again with our vision of hope and ingenuity. We will reach out to old friends whilst offering our neighbours a good deal. We are of the people and for the people.

Some in the minority still wish to peddle fear. Daily prophecies of doom and gloom intended to terrorise the majority will of course fail and should stop. One lunatic on this very forum is closing in on 150 threads of fear peddling. We the people must reject the path of fear and choose hope.

So believe in your country, choose your country and most importantly, choose hope over fear.
Pause Switch to Standard View HOPE Vs FEAR.
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Report edy February 21, 2018 10:59 AM GMT
Your entire initial statement really doesn't have much basis.
Report edy February 21, 2018 11:00 AM GMT
So I ask you, where did you get that idea?
Report edy February 21, 2018 11:00 AM GMT
What balanced google search query and results prompted you to form that opinion?
Report trilby22 February 21, 2018 11:03 AM GMT
Do you find Deutsche Welle balanced, edy?
Report edy February 21, 2018 11:05 AM GMT
I can't answer that actually because I never read or watch Deutsche Welle. I'd personally expect it to have a state tint.
Report InsiderTrader February 21, 2018 11:05 AM GMT
My basis is the Merkel Madness of 2015 has opened Germany and Europe up to future problems.

I stand corrected if she has been forced to change her position and they can truely keep chain migration to 12,000 a year.

With automation coming and the fact so few of the new influx are anywhere near getting jobs and contributing to the economy makes the old policy strange.
Report edy February 21, 2018 11:05 AM GMT
but again, I could be wrong with that opinion.
Report trilby22 February 21, 2018 11:06 AM GMT
Thanks edy.

http://www.dw.com/en/top-stories/s-9097

I don't mind it but it's defo state / left / MSM leaning, imo.
Report edy February 21, 2018 11:09 AM GMT

Feb 21, 2018 -- 5:05AM, InsiderTrader wrote:


My basis is the Merkel Madness of 2015 has opened Germany and Europe up to future problems.I stand corrected if she has been forced to change her position and they can truely keep chain migration to 12,000 a year. With automation coming and the fact so few of the new influx are anywhere near getting jobs and contributing to the economy makes the old policy strange.


but that's what I'm talking about. It's been years frankly and you simply keep and keep and keep and keep spouting the same illinformed things instead of having informed yourself at least a little tiny bit about any changes at any point in all these years.

Report InsiderTrader February 21, 2018 11:16 AM GMT
Edy,

What percentage of the immigrants that entered Germany in 2015 are now working full time and paying their way?
Report edy February 21, 2018 11:18 AM GMT
I don't know. I choose to to not make brash statements without having thoroughly informed myself.

Bit of a desperate deflection from what you initially stated either way, isn't it?
Report InsiderTrader February 21, 2018 11:19 AM GMT
'In December, German authorities admitted they had opened five times as many terror investigations in 2017 compared to the year before. Some 1,200 probes involved suspected acts of terrorism, and more than 80 percent of them had an Islamist connection.'

http://www.dw.com/en/german-prisons-150-dangerous-islamists-need-deradicalizing-say-police/a-42667599
Report InsiderTrader February 21, 2018 11:19 AM GMT
Open yours eyes edy
Report tony57 February 21, 2018 11:20 AM GMT
accourding to the best guess from the immigration office 15% and most of them have started their own buisness ..shops selling food to others like them..2-3% have found work in the german economy..car,s high tec..etc..the rest are reciving FULL state handouts...
Report InsiderTrader February 21, 2018 11:21 AM GMT
'Up to three quarters of Germany’s refugees will still be unemployed in five years’ time, according to a government minister, in a stark admission of the challenges the country faces in integrating its huge migrant population.'


https://www.ft.com/content/022de0a4-54f4-11e7-9fed-c19e2700005f
Report tony57 February 21, 2018 11:22 AM GMT
remember if some of these people change their minds and dont like germany..which is the next best country they WANT TO GO TOO...mmm....?
Report edy February 21, 2018 11:22 AM GMT
I believe you have, or maybe it was Injera, have provided me with that link before.
Report tony57 February 21, 2018 11:24 AM GMT
so because they have now been given full german papers...they can go wherever they want inside the eu..i dont think many would want to leave germany tbh..but thats not the point!!
Report edy February 21, 2018 11:26 AM GMT
You only get a german passport, to enable travel after a number of year, I think 6 or 8, (longer than than UK requires to give away citienship anyway) and if you're self-sufficient and know the language and everything.
Report InsiderTrader February 21, 2018 11:27 AM GMT
edy,

Do you admit it was a mistake?
Report tony57 February 21, 2018 11:28 AM GMT
edy..
i think you should watch whats going on in france..thousands of migrants could of stayed in germany..but they want to come here??? i agree, its stupid, id rather stay in germany..but the facts are the facts..the dutch have closed alot of loopholes lately..they cannot stay longer than 3mths unless they learn dutch..if they dont pass a dutch exam in 12 mths..they are out..so many go to france to come here..
Report edy February 21, 2018 11:28 AM GMT
No, of course it wasn't. Were we supposed to let them be in an already collapsing Greek state?
Report edy February 21, 2018 11:29 AM GMT
The mistake was not preparing better.
Report edy February 21, 2018 11:31 AM GMT
If I remember correctly, even the ever Merkel critical Daily Express recently ran a report on the REAL (they sure love some all caps) reason Germany suspended Dublin III. I.e that it was not some heroic liberal Mutti thing, but a measure to take pressure off Greece.
Report tony57 February 21, 2018 11:33 AM GMT
edy...i honestly say..it makes my blood boil to read such utter stupidity! after what you have just posted i think its fair to say nothing i or others who have GENUINE worrys over immigration could say anything that would make you see it from another point of view...
Report edy February 21, 2018 11:33 AM GMT
Something that was long overdue after Germany, France and the UK, in their eternal arrogance, left countries like Greece completely alone by pointing to Dublin III.
Report InsiderTrader February 21, 2018 11:33 AM GMT
Macron is proposing a massive change in French policy on the to appease NF voters.

Germany appears to be slowly changing. But actions speak louder than words.

Yet edy still thinks 2015 was not a mistake dispite increases in terror plots and very low job rate.

Strange.
Report edy February 21, 2018 11:34 AM GMT
Would it have been better for the continent to let Greece collapse?
Report edy February 21, 2018 11:34 AM GMT
To maybe let people starve and freeze on the balkans?
Report InsiderTrader February 21, 2018 11:37 AM GMT
Why did the people come edy?

Why did they make the trip from Turkey in the first place?

Why did they not stop in Turkey or Greece or Serbia, or any of the other countries?
Report tony57 February 21, 2018 11:41 AM GMT
what utter hypocrisy...your EU has its boot on the greeks neck as we speak!! many of us screamed give them debt relief , they have the fronline with italy..plus the debt crisis..what did your eu do..said NO....we spend 7% to help this problem..these people should be sent back to border points next to there countrys ..jordan do this very well..spend the money on them close to home..not open our borders to let millions in..7% remember..jordan..turkey do fantastic work ..border towns and camps are built till its safe to go back..but like many things..lots of muslim countrys have not taken any of these people..after spending what we do..why should we take in people many who despise us..when we cannot look after our own..very naive...
Report edy February 21, 2018 11:42 AM GMT
Why did they not stop in Turkey or Greece or Serbia, or any of the other countries?

allow me to quote myself

Dude, we're talking about Germany here. Best country on the friggin planet man.

Not liking it anymore in Germany. You're funny, buddy.


...even though we actually have a lower asylum acceptance rate than many other countries on the continent.

They were on the continent and on the move. If you actually look at the timeline of events and numbers, you'll see that any pull effect by Germany's words and actions were minimal, contrary to popular illinformed believe.

Germany should've been better prepared. That's what Merkel and her government really suck at. They're ok with analysing situations and crisis management, but creating and thinking ahead are not really their thing. There should've been more European solidarity in the years before 2015. Long before that. There should've been measures. Something like the Turkey deal Germany orchestrated once the refugees actually came to Germany in bigger numbers. Though, as mentioned, the big central european powerhouses simply couldn't have cared any less that Greece and Italy were well above capacity.
Report edy February 21, 2018 11:44 AM GMT
and moaning and groaning and on the verge of collapsing under the pressure we had so long left them alone with.
Report InsiderTrader February 21, 2018 11:46 AM GMT
'They were on the continent and on the move.'

Again WHY?

What happened in the run up to cause this move?

The EU and thus Germany failed to address the issue.
Report edy February 21, 2018 11:48 AM GMT
What happened in the run up to cause this move?

It all started really with the way the UK and France handled their colonial past in the region.
Report tony57 February 21, 2018 11:52 AM GMT
mmm....i think its time to stop!
Report InsiderTrader February 21, 2018 11:55 AM GMT
What region are you talking about Edy?
Report edy February 21, 2018 11:56 AM GMT
What region do you think I could be talking about?
Report edy February 21, 2018 11:59 AM GMT
You little rascal really need to stop taking thread off-topic btw.
Report edy February 21, 2018 11:59 AM GMT
all the time
Report InsiderTrader February 21, 2018 12:01 PM GMT
You tell me Edy.

Where do you think the Merkel Million were from?
Report edy February 21, 2018 12:02 PM GMT
Mostly the middle east, Afghanistan, the Maghreb states and some balkans (the latter until we declared them as safe countries and Deutsche Welle started telling them that they have no chance to be accepted anyway)
Report edy February 21, 2018 12:04 PM GMT
You?
Report InsiderTrader February 21, 2018 12:06 PM GMT
And what has Britain and France's history got to go with a million people from all across asia and africa and europe suddenly coming to Germany in 2015?

Why Britain and France as opposed to the Germans or the Ottomans?

What is your link?
Report InsiderTrader February 21, 2018 12:07 PM GMT
Or indeed infighting by different sects of Islam.

Why Britain and France?
Report edy February 21, 2018 12:15 PM GMT
Colonial oppressors creating nation states with a ruler is a really bad idea to begin with. Then supporting dictators (or overthrowing dictators and installing your own neat dictator if the previous one liked the wrong geopolitical partner), maybe invading a country here and there for some **** and giggles just sound like long-term bad ideas too.
Report edy February 21, 2018 12:19 PM GMT
Britain and France because they were the major colonial players. Germany's colonial prowess didn't expand much beyond Micronesia. We did kind of teach some muslims at the start of the 20th that jihad is really, really cool to be honest, but if you hadn't had all those middle eastern colonies, that wouldn't have been necessary. You forced us really.
Report InsiderTrader February 21, 2018 12:20 PM GMT
edy,

You have shown your true colors on this thread.

Very disturbing you have such negative views of something that ended slavery worldwide and introduced the rule of law and democracy to many countries.
Report edy February 21, 2018 12:21 PM GMT
Yeah, that's a bit of colonial arrogance you hear a lot.
Report edy February 21, 2018 12:24 PM GMT
If a foreign power comes tomorrow, a really great and fantastically awesome foreign power. There has never been a better foreign power in the history of mankind. They invade you and oppress you. Would that be cool.

Keep in mind they're a fantastic foreign power than will do some fantastic things (or so they will later claim as the victors of history)
Report edy February 21, 2018 12:27 PM GMT
Probably it would not be because you already get your knickers in a twist when the UK is involved in a system of international consensus and compromise.
Report InsiderTrader February 21, 2018 12:49 PM GMT
edy
21 Feb 18 12:24
Joined: 13 Dec 06
| Topic/replies: 182,896 | Blogger: edy's blog
If a foreign power comes tomorrow, a really great and fantastically awesome foreign power. There has never been a better foreign power in the history of mankind. They invade you and oppress you. Would that be cool.

^

There has been empires since the world begun.

I find it unusual you only pick out UK and France.

But you ignore the Ottomans, Austrians, The Germans, The Romans, The Tulunids, The Mamluks, The Rassids, The Americans, The Aztecs, The Mongols?
Report jed.davison February 21, 2018 1:03 PM GMT
edy is a very funny guy - no fan of colonialism and empire-building but an EU enthusiast.
Report edy February 21, 2018 1:14 PM GMT
Did I hurt your little false pride and sense of patriotism, IT? Plain

The Aztecs in particular probably didn't have that much recent influence on the geopolitical situation in the middle east and north africa. Or do you think they did?

Again, I picked the UK (or Britain if you will) and France because they had the most recent and biggest colonial influence there. They drew the borders and what the colonial past there is a part of the puzzle.
Report edy February 21, 2018 1:22 PM GMT

Feb 21, 2018 -- 7:03AM, jed.davison wrote:


edy is a very funny guy - no fan of colonialism and empire-building but an EU enthusiast.


oh, I am a huge fan of empires, but they do occasionally have their negatives and consequences later in history. I don't like the colonial arrogance and complete romanticization that some people display however.

Report melv February 21, 2018 1:28 PM GMT
History will not judge Remainers well.

You lost the vote - clearly - and now have the audacity to attempt to dictate the terms of our departure.


A perfect example of how bitterly this country is divided.

You voted for Brexit clueless about the consequences. Cameron. Farage and you are to blame.

Cameron will be the Anthony Eden de nos jours.

I do agree all this will be in the History books. Big time.
Report InsiderTrader February 21, 2018 1:52 PM GMT
Edy,

Lets actually look at the numbers:

Syria 268,866
Controlled by Ottaman Empire from 1516-1920. Before that various Muslim groups fought over it.
France 1920-1936
You blame France for 16 years after centuries of fighting and genocide?

Afghanistan 127,892
British influence 1838-1923 but not control. Before that various Empires fought over it e.g Persia.
Soviets run it 1978-1989.
The various civil wars then USA led forces.
You blame the UK?

Then we have Iraq (was protected by UK 1920-1947), Iran (Britain during WW1 until 1921), Eritrea (1941-1950 UK after Italians defeated), Albania (Ottomans then Italy, then Germany)


Really to blame Britain and France for the problems in those countries that have been continuously conquered throughout history is very lazy. You think a few decades almost a century ago caused all the problems?

Have a little read about the various Caliphates. They cover most of territories in question:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caliphate
Report edy February 21, 2018 1:58 PM GMT
Do you understand what part of the puzzle means compared to complete blame?
Report edy February 21, 2018 1:59 PM GMT
the influence and consequences reached beyond the pure time of rule either way. E.g through the borders they drew.
Report edy February 21, 2018 2:05 PM GMT
but ok, I am sorry for daring to hurt your little patriotic feelings with my, admittedly, flippant answer to your question.

What would you have preferred me to reply to your "What happened in the run up to cause this move?"?
Report jed.davison February 21, 2018 2:07 PM GMT
Melv, why do you insist I voted for Leave without knowing the consequences? We are not all idiots you know.

You - and your fellow Remainers - before you do anything else, you need to grasp the fact that not all your interlocutors are worthy of your scorn. It is this trait - as I warned your fellow travellers before the Referendum - which has caused the division of which you speak more than any other factor. You believe that all Leave voters are fools or knaves, that we were all gulled by Big Bad Nigel Farage, and that we are all closet racists who wish to restore England to a state of perpetual warfare with the rest of the world.

All you can do is speak to us as if we are thick. This went on before the Referendum, as I said, when the sneering and patronising tone of the Remain campaign itself made the difference to the final result, much more than any issue connected to Turkish accession to the EU or any

It was not the EU itself to which a large number of people objected, it was the patronising tone and behaviour of its champions in Britain.

None of this has changed. The sneering continues, in every one of your posts, every post by UB, every post by Bigpoppapump.
Report InsiderTrader February 21, 2018 2:12 PM GMT
A real answer rather than just blaming the UK and France for things that happened decades or even centuries before.

I don't hear France or Poland or the Czech republic or Greece or Serbia or Russia or Ukraine or Norway or Denmark blaming Germany for every problem they currently have just because Germany occupied them for a short time.
Report edy February 21, 2018 2:15 PM GMT
Yeah, and what is that real answer? I know you already had a very clear idea of an answer when you asked that question.
Report edy February 21, 2018 2:17 PM GMT
Which makes asking that question a bit silly btw instead of simply you bringing forward your point in the first place.
Report tony57 February 21, 2018 2:33 PM GMT
very true jed.
Report tony57 February 21, 2018 6:25 PM GMT
Swedish equivalent of German AfD in second place.Andrew Neil added,
Europe Elects

@EuropeElects
Sweden, Sentio poll:

S-S&D: 25% (-2)
SD-EFDD: 22%…
10:46 PM - 20 Feb 2018

europe does not want FOM..but the eu does....
Report edy February 21, 2018 6:31 PM GMT
What percentage do the pro EU, pro free movement parties unite on each other?
Report tony57 February 21, 2018 6:38 PM GMT
who cares, fascism is on the rise in europe , not seen since the war..
Report edy February 21, 2018 6:39 PM GMT
I'm not quite sure if it's actually fair to the Sweden Democrats to really liken them to the AfD btw.
Report donny osmond February 21, 2018 6:56 PM GMT
europe seems quite happy with the right kind of fom

the wrong kind of fom doesnt seem so popular

but has nowt to do with eu....
Report moisok February 21, 2018 6:58 PM GMT
I did warn you that colonialism was the buzzword to give the knuckle dragging leavers a thrashing.

After all, look at the colonialism going on in Camden.  Various of the diaspora are battled for control.  Will the winners draw a line on the map also.
Report moisok February 21, 2018 7:01 PM GMT
jed  - I have never forgotten the reference to old men in urine stained trousers, sitting in wetherspoons over a pint of warm ale all voting leave.  That was a remainer comment.,
Report jed.davison February 21, 2018 7:07 PM GMT
Of course, it is the sneering intellectual snobbery which turns people off. It is very hard to have a conversation with the Remainers on here for that exact reason.

And that tone has not gone despite their ignominious defeat, if anything it has got worse.
Report moisok February 21, 2018 7:09 PM GMT
I am thinking about edy's belittling comment. 'little patriotic feelings'   They certainly didn't have little patriotic feelings when they went east with Barbarossa - and their third attempt at the head of the Eu in the Ukraine. Why do edy's lot seem to favour these eastward moves?  And 'colonial arrogance'  - told you it was their latest buzzword.
Shame on you leavers ho ho
Report moisok February 21, 2018 7:13 PM GMT
Cutting off the gravy train - no wonder the civil service hates the idea of leaving and producing that latest pack of lies.
Quite a few of them could be out of jobs!!!
Report jed.davison February 21, 2018 7:19 PM GMT
I stopped reading edy's drivel ages ago moisok, his smug Teutonic arrogance was making me murderous.
Report edy February 21, 2018 7:22 PM GMT
Hey, a lot of it is a bit purposeful exaggeration with a pinch of self-irony (especially when I keep saying how Germany is the very best on the entire planet and so much better than anything else)

Though if I think about it again...Germany is fabulously awesome and so much better than the UK.
Report moisok February 21, 2018 7:24 PM GMT
Well they have done it again and now again - how did it end up before ?? Twice the russians have stopped them.   I can understand why Putin is suspicious off the west based on their experiences.
Report edy February 21, 2018 7:25 PM GMT
mobo, how old are you?
Report jed.davison February 21, 2018 7:29 PM GMT
To be fair, it's infuriating being spoken down to by UB or BPP, and both of them are clearly in possession of a brain. But when it's melv, who is clearly as thick as a 1950s pea-souper, it does get a bit much.
Report edy February 21, 2018 7:30 PM GMT
True that. Same with Insidertrader who keeps telling others that they're just stupid sheep all the time. That he's the only one doing research unlike all the misguided and manipulated sheep.
Report moisok February 21, 2018 7:31 PM GMT
I am fascinated by the history of expansionism in europe jed and the repeated mistakes.
Report moisok February 21, 2018 7:32 PM GMT
Why do you think they want turkey in the set up? Lots more fodder.
Report edy February 21, 2018 7:33 PM GMT
Germany has always voted against Turkey's membership.
Report edy February 21, 2018 7:33 PM GMT
It was primarily the UK that wanted to advance Turkey's relationship and speed up their membership.
Report edy February 21, 2018 7:34 PM GMT
Actually, maybe there was a short period of time, the SPD-Green government, that was not opposed to Turkey's membership. All other German governments have been, including the current and previous one.
Report edy February 21, 2018 7:35 PM GMT
Regardless of that the fact remains that the UK's various governments have been much more supportative of it.
Report edy February 21, 2018 7:36 PM GMT
and hey c'mon mobbo, ain't no turk serving as cannon fodder for no stinky German.
Report edy February 21, 2018 7:37 PM GMT
*proud turk
Report edy February 21, 2018 7:37 PM GMT
*stinky German Kartoffelnase
Report moisok February 21, 2018 7:39 PM GMT
They don't now and anyway we are leaving - I think there was a vote on it recently  to leave.
Report edy February 21, 2018 7:41 PM GMT
Your highly regarded and respected current Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs said not that long ago that the UK would support Turkey in a quest to join the EU.
Report jed.davison February 21, 2018 7:46 PM GMT
He's a Turk himself is he not?
Report edy February 21, 2018 7:47 PM GMT
has some turkish ancestry, yes.
Report moisok February 21, 2018 7:58 PM GMT
Jed - the turks have said they have met all the requirements for relaxation of travel visas - nothing to do with joining the eu a red herring in this discussion , but TRAVEL VISAs.
Report edy February 21, 2018 8:05 PM GMT
mobo, how are the Kartoffelnasen Fritzes going to use the Turks as cannon fodder just easier travel regulations (that are far from being granted)?
Report edy February 21, 2018 8:06 PM GMT
*with just less strict travel regulations
Report moisok February 21, 2018 8:11 PM GMT
jed
do you think this obsession with the eastward invasion is cultural?
Report edy February 21, 2018 8:14 PM GMT
You're the most obsessed person about any eastward invasions on the entire planet, my friend mobo.
Report Burt06 December 15, 2020 12:41 AM GMT
Cool
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