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PorcupineorPineapple
13 Nov 17 11:01
Joined:
Date Joined: 03 Dec 15
| Topic/replies: 47,508 | Blogger: PorcupineorPineapple's blog
What do people think of Russians using social media to meddle in US elections and our referendum?

Seen a few articles on it, and just read one saying that the user @southlonestar who famously posted the photo of the Muslim women checking her phone just after the Westminster Bridge attack was actually not a Texan, but from Russia.

There does seem to be some confidence in the fact that these are Russians but I don't think I've heard the other side. Any evidence these people are genuine users and not just made up?
Pause Switch to Standard View Russian interference
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Report Dr Crippen November 17, 2017 1:06 PM GMT
there is a very great deal at risk when these views spread and become acceptable and normalised.

And who is to decide what is allowed and what isn't allowed?

You for instance bebopalula would allow a very different set of views to others on here. And vice versa.
Report dave1357 November 17, 2017 1:21 PM GMT
So Crippen you would be fine with jihadi imams telling people to murder non believers?  Free speech, amirite?

Assuming that you wouldn't be happy about that where do you draw the line?
Report Dr Crippen November 17, 2017 1:23 PM GMT
That's not free speech dave, that's simply advocating murder.
Report lfc1971 November 17, 2017 1:25 PM GMT
The problem is the hypocrisy of those doing the shouting . Who do they choose to shout down , and why .
Would they be so quick to shout down a representative from China on question time for example who denied that Mao purged and murdered millions.

Or would they sit there quietly and respectively , listening and then perhaps even quietly applauding when he finishes his lies .
Perhaps it's only a certain type of personthey wish to shout down, I don't know.
Report edy November 17, 2017 1:25 PM GMT
Why exactly would I have brought up Blair out of the blue in this thread? Your thought process and desperate deflections are spectacular at times. I spoke about issues about Griffin and Galloway after you brought them up and trivialised them.

If you think I'm a fan of Blair and the Iraq invasion that violated international law, you couldn't be more wrong either. You'll have to go to lfc for that. He thinks the Iraq invasion was a great service and the damn ungrateful Iraqi people should be thankful and praise the UK and US every day.

I hope the big irony of your post isn't lost on you btw. You continuosly, rightly so as I've agreed with you a long time ago already if you recall, call out anti-semitic tendencies within labour and the left in general(and only the left), but yesterday and again today you normalise people with a long, long history of strong anti-semitism.
Report edy November 17, 2017 1:27 PM GMT
because they suit your overall worldview.
Report edy November 17, 2017 1:27 PM GMT
In some ways you remind me of the football supporter who is perfectly happy when the referee is on the same side as the one he supports, regardless of whether the decisions were erroneous or not.
Report lfc1971 November 17, 2017 1:28 PM GMT
We draw the line at the leftists listening respectively to any evil ideology as long as it is not British .
Then they will not so much as raise their voice , certainly not .
Report lfc1971 November 17, 2017 1:31 PM GMT
they  are the same people who were happy to turn a blind eye and sit and listen quietly while mass murderers waved a little red book .
That was all lies also .
Report lfc1971 November 17, 2017 1:32 PM GMT
So shut up about shouting people down , you don't do it often enough or when it matters.
Report Dr Crippen November 17, 2017 1:42 PM GMT
you normalise people with a long, long history of strong anti-semitism.

''normalise'' You think that anti-Semites are abnormal?
And what about anti-Zionists like Galloway, there must be billions of those along with anti-Semites.
Are they all abnormal because they hold different views to your own?

You're starting to resemble the very people you condemn.
Report edy November 17, 2017 1:51 PM GMT
There is a stark difference between condemning people for the mere way they were born to calling out people for their views.
Report bigpoppapump November 17, 2017 1:52 PM GMT
thread going badly?


Yes it's time to change the subject ...


Galloway
zionism

etc
etc

Plain  same old.
Report InsiderTrader November 17, 2017 1:54 PM GMT
edy
17 Nov 17 11:53
Joined: 13 Dec 06
| Topic/replies: 177,780 | Blogger: edy's blog
free speech in a nutshell once more for you: A responsible citizen can say whatever stupid crap he wants, but at the same time, every other responsible citizen is also free to call him out on that stupid crap. Right to free speech is not right that you are provided every possible platform to spout your stupid crap.

...

What about to post on monopolies like Youtube and Facebook?
Report edy November 17, 2017 1:58 PM GMT
That's not a constitutional right either. Spare us of the poor ol' hysteric victim tale in that regard too.
Report edy November 17, 2017 2:02 PM GMT
The other day I was made aware of a youtuber who went all hysteric many months ago, posting a hysteric video "I'LL BE GONE SOON!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!"...as in deleted and made to shut up.

....guess what? He's still posting his nonsense ever so happily on youtube and his other distribution ways.

In general if you have a look at youtube etc. you can't possibly begin to claim they don't give you an opportunity to give your opinion a voice.
Report Dr Crippen November 17, 2017 2:08 PM GMT
What's a snowflake?
Report edy November 17, 2017 2:09 PM GMT
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Snowflake
Report Dr Crippen November 17, 2017 2:15 PM GMT
That's funny, I did a search and this came out second from the top.

Snowflake is a term Republicans are calling liberals. it refers to the human ash in the air when the Nazis would burn people alive.

https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Snowflake

Is that what you meant edy?
Report Dr Crippen November 17, 2017 2:24 PM GMT
I can fully respect and acknowledge a good old school racist and nazi.

I see.
Report edy November 17, 2017 2:25 PM GMT
Happy
Report Dr Crippen November 17, 2017 2:27 PM GMT
Don't stop now edy.

Keep digging you're doing fine.
Report edy November 17, 2017 2:31 PM GMT
Oh, I see my post went a bit over your head. You really think I'm the one doing the major digging here with you spending hours to voice your admiration for people like Griffin?
Report InsiderTrader November 17, 2017 2:35 PM GMT
edy,

You misunderstand my question.

Do you think Youtube and Facebook should be allowed to let people post any views?
Report edy November 17, 2017 2:39 PM GMT
A nation's courts should apply the same laws regulating speech to platforms like Youtube and Facebook as they do with everything else.
Report InsiderTrader November 17, 2017 2:44 PM GMT
So in China (for instance) those platforms should not be allowed to delay content banned by the Chinese government even if that content is perfectly legal in the USA?
Report Dr Crippen November 17, 2017 2:49 PM GMT
Oh, I see my post went a bit over your head.

That's too bad edy. What a waste.

Nevertheless I got the message here loud and clear.
edy
     17 Nov 17 14:21   

You know, I can fully respect and acknowledge a good old school racist and nazi.


Yes there's no mistake in understanding that one.
Report edy November 17, 2017 2:56 PM GMT
Irony isn't your strong point, is it Crippen? I can promise you that the majority of others in this thread got it. I'm actually fairly certain you did too and are just playing dumb now. Or am I giving you too much credit there?

InsiderTrader • November 17, 2017 2:44 PM GMT
So in China (for instance) those platforms should not be allowed to delay content banned by the Chinese government even if that content is perfectly legal in the USA?


Local laws apply. If Youtube received a court order from a Chinese court, they will and should follow the procedures and, if required, block the content locally. It would then be up to our politicians to seek to influence Chinese authorities if they deem that the law causing the content to be banned is in violation of human rights.
Report InsiderTrader November 17, 2017 3:23 PM GMT
Interesting views edy.

If the internet had been around in the time of Nazi Germany would you say the same thing - i.e. Youtube and Facebook should not allow posts visible in Germany supporting Jews and other minorities?
Report Dr Crippen November 17, 2017 3:23 PM GMT
spending hours to voice your admiration for people like Griffin?

That's clearly not true edy.

Would you please point out where I give any credit whatsoever here, to Nick Griffin or George Galloway with regard to them or their views?
I've neither backed their opinions, or opposed any of their opinions here.
And if that has been the case elsewhere, it certainly doesn't apply on this thread.

In your own time.
Report moisok November 17, 2017 3:58 PM GMT
I believe it all.  The straw that broke the camel's back was when the guy with the funny eastern european accent handed me the ballot form with the cross already in it.
Report edy November 17, 2017 4:02 PM GMT
And if that has been the case elsewhere, it certainly doesn't apply on this thread.

I absolutely love you including this little sentence because know you've openly voiced your admiration in other threads on here in the past Laugh

In this thread too however, your multi-hour long stern defense of them here, and in the past, and being unable to bring forward even a single bad word despite plenty of chances to condemn their views that have been brought up speaks volumes. If you claim otherwise, that's fine with me. You fall into the second category of people I described earlier.

I remember a post from you some time back where you cried wolf that the BBC put the show with Galloway in a jewish area and hand picked a jewish audience that'd be out for his blood Plain

InsiderTrader • November 17, 2017 3:23 PM GMT
Interesting views edy.

If the internet had been around in the time of Nazi Germany would you say the same thing - i.e. Youtube and Facebook should not allow posts visible in Germany supporting Jews and other minorities?


We're not comparing Nazi Germany and China now, are we?

Nonetheless, a few things.

It should not be up to corporations like Facebook to decide what can be said. Hence my insistance on the law and courts. If the laws violate human rights, it is the job of the international community to try to change the ways, not the job of Facebook or Alphabet. If a Facebook or Alphabet decide that a country's politics are in stark contrast to its own philosophies, then the company should not offer any of its services to the country at all. If they do offer their services - then apply the laws.

Additionally, if we're talking about a hypothetical Nazi state in the times of internet - they'd block any non-conforming platforms anyway. You'll notice that I specifically said blocking things locally, not outright deleting content based on the wishes of a specific country. If people know how to circumvent the blocking measures of their countries, they will still be able to access the content.
Report edy November 17, 2017 4:03 PM GMT
I mean, you explicitly cried wolf that the BBC packed the crowd with jews.
Report edy November 17, 2017 4:04 PM GMT
That was to Crippen of course.
Report dave1357 November 17, 2017 4:04 PM GMT
Insider Trader effortlessly created a Godwin's strawman.
Report moisok November 17, 2017 4:05 PM GMT
and the guys goosesteping around the ballot station just like they do in moscow
Report moisok November 17, 2017 4:05 PM GMT
ahh !  dave who hides when challenged
Report dave1357 November 17, 2017 4:10 PM GMT
My stalker is here, well I can hear a little dog barking, so I assume it's him.
Report Dr Crippen November 17, 2017 4:43 PM GMT
I mean, you explicitly cried wolf that the BBC packed the crowd with jews.

Are you trying to say that I denied that the BBC had done a hatchet job on Galloway?
It that is what you mean then that's another lie.
I've condemned the BBC on here many times over their treatment of Galloway on QT.

And here:

I absolutely love you including this little sentence because know you've openly voiced your admiration in other threads on here in the past Laugh

That was simply in case I had agreed with something one of them had said in the past.
Galloway is a socialist, how could I disagree with every word he has ever uttered about equality for instance?

Griffin supports the NHS - do you disagree with having an NHS because he is in favour of having one?
Of course you don't, so you would back Griffin as well on that issue..

I see you've chosen not to apologise for misrepresenting me over Griffin.

Fair enough. That reflects badly on you not me.
Report edy November 17, 2017 4:51 PM GMT
You can still not bring yourself to say a word condemnation about Griffin. Tsk tsk tsk. Instead you even make sure to point out something you deem cool about him.

Dr Crippen • November 17, 2017 4:43 PM GMT
I mean, you explicitly cried wolf that the BBC packed the crowd with jews.

Are you trying to say that I denied that the BBC had done a hatchet job on Galloway?
It that is what you mean then that's another lie.
I've condemned the BBC on here many times over their treatment of Galloway on QT.


No, it means that you suggested the BBC specifically invited Galloway to a show in a jewish area and in addition hand-picked jews to fill the crowd. Sorry if my initial phrasing wasn't clear enough. You can say it better than I ever could.

Dr Crippen • March 20, 2017 8:09 PM GMT
It was disgusting the way the BBC set Griffin up on Question Time.
Every question was centred on race or homosexuality.

A panel of liberals and a hostile audience. Did he walk into a pit of snakes.

They did the same to Galloway not long after.
The venue was in a Jewish area and the hand picked Jewish audience were out for his blood.
They hung Galloway out to dry just like they did with Griffin.


The BBC producers should be ashamed of themselves.
Report InsiderTrader November 17, 2017 4:53 PM GMT
dave1357
17 Nov 17 16:04
Joined: 05 Sep 10
| Topic/replies: 6,270 | Blogger: dave1357's blog
Insider Trader effortlessly created a Godwin's strawman.

...

You can drop a name to try to look clever but you cannot yet read a chart.

Maybe the Nazi example was too strong. But any oppressive state could be used as an example. Hence my use of China.
Report Dr Crippen November 17, 2017 5:09 PM GMT
No, it means that you suggested the BBC specifically invited Galloway to a show in a jewish area and in addition hand-picked jews to fill the crowd.

That's exactly what they did.
Everything there is consistent with what I've written here.

So what's your point?

Are you all right edy? You don't seem to be thinking straight.
Report Dr Crippen November 17, 2017 5:15 PM GMT
Although edy.
Thanks for bringing back my post from March this year about the BBC and that kangaroo court  they call Question Time.

By the way, are you keeping a file on my posts?

Lol.
Report edy November 17, 2017 5:19 PM GMT
How do you know they hand-picked jews instead of random responsible citizens who were disgusted with what Galloway said? Had a long close look at their noses, right? Did you read it on your favourite anti-semitism forum maybe?

You are obviously unable to understand, but even the average non-jewsish person is more outraged with anti-semites than they are with alledged "unfair" treatment of the poor lil anti-semites.
Report edy November 17, 2017 5:21 PM GMT
*favourite anti-semitic jewish BBC conspiracy forum, pardon me.
Report Dr Crippen November 17, 2017 5:31 PM GMT
I know of no anti-Semitic forums.
I leave that stuff to the likes of you.
Report edy November 17, 2017 5:32 PM GMT
That's not quite an answer to my question.
Report InsiderTrader November 17, 2017 5:48 PM GMT
edy likes to continuously shift the sands of any debate.
Report Dr Crippen November 17, 2017 5:51 PM GMT
It was more of an accusation that a statement of fact.

It's well known that the BBC vet their audience. Did you think they invited people in off the street as they walked by?

Still no apology I see.
Report edy November 17, 2017 6:00 PM GMT
but don't forget to answer how you know they were jews.
Report edy November 17, 2017 6:04 PM GMT
Dr Crippen • November 17, 2017 1:42 PM GMT
you normalise people with a long, long history of strong anti-semitism.

''normalise'' You think that anti-Semites are abnormal?
And what about anti-Zionists like Galloway, there must be billions of those along with anti-Semites.
Are they all abnormal because they hold different views to your own?

You're starting to resemble the very people you condemn.


and while you're at it, convince me that you don't think anti-semitism is just another normal, different opinion.
Report Dr Crippen November 17, 2017 6:09 PM GMT
spending hours to voice your admiration for people like Griffin?

That's what I want you to apologise for.

It is clearly a lie. So where is my apology?
Report edy November 17, 2017 6:10 PM GMT
It really is hard for you to say even one word of condemnation for the likes of Griffin, isn't it?
Report edy November 17, 2017 6:11 PM GMT
It should be easy if you don't admire them. They have a lot to dislike.
Report Dr Crippen November 17, 2017 6:13 PM GMT
What do the street types say in cases like this?

I remember it's ''grow a pair''

Come on edy, man up, grow a pair and apologise.
Report edy November 17, 2017 6:16 PM GMT
Stunning how you refuse to in any way say anything negative about Griffin. And you try to tell me you don't admire him?
Report dave1357 November 17, 2017 6:32 PM GMT
@Insider Trader

...... you cannot yet read a chart


I read two independently produced charts that you published.  They didn't indicate what you claimed.  They showed flat income since 2007.  I linked you a US real household income chart that showed income flat since 2007 - the US has had no "influx of eastern Europeans".  You made no comment. 

When you failed to prove what you claimed by the independent charts, you created a home made one using different dates in a sad and desperate attempt to prove some nonsense you no doubt read in a random blog.  There is no point in continuing that discussion unless you start to exhibit a basic respect for statistical data.

btw you still haven't explained why "if the UK has no financial obligations to the EU arising from brexit" David Davis told parliament:

The Government recognise that the UK has obligations to the EU, and the EU obligations to the UK, that will survive the UK’s withdrawal—and that these need to be resolved.

Was he lying to Parliament?
Report InsiderTrader November 17, 2017 7:00 PM GMT
1. It has political obligations if we want a deal but not legal obligations.

2. You still think this chart does not flatten out after 2005? You just cannot admit it can you?

It is the same chart as one of the two you mention above. Just on a bigger scale.

3.  'I linked you a US real household income chart that showed income flat since 2007 - the US has had no "influx of eastern Europeans".' 2007/08 was the start of fin crisis. We are talking from after 2004.
Report dave1357 November 17, 2017 7:25 PM GMT
Davis said to parliament

On the financial settlement, as set out in the Prime Minister’s letter to President Tusk, the Government have been clear that we will work with the EU to determine a fair settlement of the UK’s rights and obligations as a departing member state, in accordance with the law and in the spirit of our continuing partnership. The Government recognise that the UK has obligations to the EU, and the EU obligations to the UK, that will survive the UK’s withdrawal—and that these need to be resolved.

He couldn't be more clear. 

There was no fall in the relevant metric from 2004.  It continued to rise until 2007.  The US version of the same metric also rose until 2007. 

The use of "real household disposable" income in any case smacks of desperation.  There are so many influences on that measure egs household composition, pensioners, benefits/taxation that even if you had demonstrated a link to 2004 it might well have been coincidental.  To make any credible case, you would have to provide statistics of the number of East Europeans per year, employment sectors they worked in and % of workforce, previous trends in those sectors earnings.
Report InsiderTrader November 17, 2017 7:36 PM GMT
Dave,

Do you concede that the chart posted above on the OBR data for UK net disposable income per capita levels off after 2004/05 or do you think the chart above goes up at the same rate on the blue and the orange line?

If we can at least settle this first point we could move onto if it is relevant data and what happened in the USA.

But at the moment you are suggesting there is no flattening off on this chart which I find amazing.
Report edy November 17, 2017 8:51 PM GMT
aw man you guys, Crippen was just about tell me that Griffin is really stupid, that he might've mistaken with the jews, and that anti-semitism is super lame, wrong and should be eradicated from the face of the earth.
Report dave1357 November 17, 2017 9:29 PM GMT
Insider trader

You have produced a graph with unspecified axes, based apparently on a metric which has no clear relationship with East Europeans and their effect on wages, and expect me to confirm that it shows something? 

If you want me to confirm that (from the data, not your graph) the rate of change in the period 2004 -2007 is less than various arbitrary periods before (but still more than 2007 to present) that then I will, but it still doesn't alter the fact that the peak is 2007 and virtually every economic commentator would consider the stagnation of real earnings since then to be connected to the financial crisis and not Eastern European workers in 2004.  It also doesn't alter the fact that the metric itself is extremely blunt and is highly unlikely to correlate with what you claim.
Report Dr Crippen November 17, 2017 9:56 PM GMT
Here's a good one from edy.

edy
     17 Nov 17 14:21   

You know, I can fully respect and acknowledge a good old school racist and nazi.

Which is interesting, so I think I'll refer to him as Jackboot edy after that.
Report edy November 17, 2017 10:16 PM GMT
Forget that Griff Nickin thing. I forgot to edit that back.
Report Dr Crippen November 17, 2017 10:17 PM GMT
Now, about that apology.....
Report edy November 17, 2017 10:18 PM GMT
Oh, I see you got my post deleted in which I offered some very generous conditions
Report edy November 17, 2017 10:18 PM GMT
give me a few seconds to rewrite it.
Report Dr Crippen November 17, 2017 10:19 PM GMT
Post it again, I must have missed that one.
Report Dr Crippen November 17, 2017 10:21 PM GMT
I used to be a big fan of Nick Griffin - then I grew a brain.

Is that the bit you want us to forget?
Report edy November 17, 2017 10:24 PM GMT
I have zero problems apologising if you meet the things I outlined above. It's nothing hard. Something every normal person would gladly write down with conviction. Just come up with how Nick Griffin sucks in your opinion and you certainly would never ever be anything other than negative towards someone like him (I'll leave the final phrasing to your imagination. Please give some reasons on why you think he sucks), come up with some super lame excuse on how you know it were hand-picked jews instead of normal folks that were rightly disgusting, then finally lie about how you think anti-semitism is an evil that should be eradicated from the face of the earth. Really shouldn't be too hard to do. You're generally good at playing characters.

This is your chance to embarrass me mightily, make me look a giant fool, make me get on my knees and apologise to you.
Report moisok November 17, 2017 10:27 PM GMT
And the ones calling one another comrad or sum such word with a strange accent sure put me off

Amongst the other foreign people like the russians, there were many more interfering in our politics and decision making.  The  french german and belgians were and are constantly in our media  tv papers etc urging us to do what THEY  want to do.
Not a lot being said about it as it nearly all to do with the russians  ha fkn ha ha.

The bbc continues to be knee deep in them.  Surely bbc doesn't stand for the bolshevik broadcasting corporation or
belgian bullying confederation?
Report Dr Crippen November 17, 2017 10:30 PM GMT
edy's the bloke to ask about the BBC, they can do no wrong in his eyes.
Report Dr Crippen November 17, 2017 10:33 PM GMT
Although he appears to be going off his rocker after reading his last couple of posts.
Report edy November 17, 2017 10:33 PM GMT
and by bad things I strictly mean true things that are bad. Plenty to choose still.
Report Dr Crippen November 17, 2017 10:41 PM GMT
Where have I refused to say anything good or bad about anybody?
Report edy November 17, 2017 10:42 PM GMT
In this thread, consistently for the past 12 hours.
Report Dr Crippen November 17, 2017 10:42 PM GMT
It's you who is slinging the mud.

I say carry on if you need to get it off your chest.

I'll certainly read it if no one else will.
Report Dr Crippen November 17, 2017 10:43 PM GMT
Show me where I've refused to slag anybody off?
Report edy November 17, 2017 10:52 PM GMT
C'mon, that's a piece of cake thing to do and a massive joy to anybody who isn't an anti-semitic racist.
Report edy November 17, 2017 10:53 PM GMT
Gives you karma points and heavenly credit with the almighty Lord too.
Report Dr Crippen November 17, 2017 10:55 PM GMT
I don't dance to anybody's tune on here me old fruit.
Report edy November 17, 2017 10:55 PM GMT
See, that's what I mean when I say you're adorable in your pathetic excuses and refusal.
Report edy November 17, 2017 11:01 PM GMT
Is calling out a wannabe conservative conspiracy loving crackpot really that hard to you? We've established you admire the guy, but man, think of that apology. What else can I offer?
Report Dr Crippen November 17, 2017 11:04 PM GMT
I'm afraid I'll have to turn it in now, and you should do the same as you appear to be drunk.

So I'll bid you goodnight.
Report edy November 17, 2017 11:05 PM GMT
I'm a teetotaler.
Report edy November 17, 2017 11:07 PM GMT
Could a non-native speaker that is drunk really put on such a stunning display in both grammar and spelling? Think logically for a moment.
Report Dr Crippen November 17, 2017 11:08 PM GMT
That means nothing, we've already seen how readily you are to misrepresent the truth.

Anyway that's it I'm off.
Report Dr Crippen November 17, 2017 11:09 PM GMT
ready.
Report edy November 17, 2017 11:10 PM GMT
Ok, sleep well Happy Or enjoy your night out first. Happy

See you tomorrow, same place, same time. Happy
Report edy November 17, 2017 11:11 PM GMT
We'll be sure to continue then.
Report InsiderTrader November 18, 2017 9:59 AM GMT
dave1357
17 Nov 17 21:29
Joined: 05 Sep 10
| Topic/replies: 6,279 | Blogger: dave1357's blog
Insider trader

You have produced a graph with unspecified axes, based apparently on a metric which has no clear relationship with East Europeans and their effect on wages, and expect me to confirm that it shows something?

If you want me to confirm that (from the data, not your graph) the rate of change in the period 2004 -2007 is less than various arbitrary periods before (but still more than 2007 to present) that then I will, but it still doesn't alter the fact that the peak is 2007 and virtually every economic commentator would consider the stagnation of real earnings since then to be connected to the financial crisis and not Eastern European workers in 2004.  It also doesn't alter the fact that the metric itself is extremely blunt and is highly unlikely to correlate with what you claim.


...

Dave,

I have given you the raw data numerous times with links from the government sources:

For Gross Disposable Household Income Per Capita in Thousands
https://www.ons.gov.uk/ons/rel/social-trends-rd/social-trends/uk-measures-of-national-well-being/rft-the-economy.xls

2000    12.6
2001    13.1
2002    13.3
2003    13.7
2004    13.8
2005    14
2006    14.1
2007    14
2008    14.1

This is what the ONS says about the metric:

Gross Disposable Household Income (GDHI) represents the amount of money left available within the household sector for spending or saving, after expenditure associated with income, for example taxes and social contributions, property ownership and provision for future pension income. This is a key measure of income and the prosperity of residents. Real household disposable income is estimated by deflation of GDHI and is expressed here per head of the population.

Dave, do you have Excel or another charting package? If you cut and paste the above data in you can examine 2005-2008 for growth. For instance 2000 to 2005 it went from 12.6k to 14k. From 2005 to 2008 it went from 14k to 14.1k.

If we go to the data going back further it is here:
https://www.ons.gov.uk/economy/grossdomesticproductgdp/timeseries/mwb7/ukea

The scale in the chart your eyes cannot see the flattening off from 2005 to 2008. That is why I put the raw data into a new chart on excel.
The raw government data is:

1995    17848
1996    18397
1997    18890
1998    20152
1999    20441
2000    21232
2001    21912
2002    22502
2003    23268
2004    23648
2005    24220
2006    24240
2007    24413
2008    23872
2009    22681
2010    23141
2011    23261
2012    23149
2013    23314
2014    24022
2015    24442
2016    24732

You can download this by clicking on .xls file or cut and paste the data above into excel.

Again I fail to see how your eyes can not see a flattening off after 2004 well before the financial crisis.

Dave, I have given you this raw data several times now.

PLEASE just try and chart it yourself if you dont believe my charts if you have Excel or another charting package. If not maybe try it on graph paper or something.
Report InsiderTrader November 18, 2017 10:29 AM GMT
dave1357
17 Nov 17 21:29
Joined: 05 Sep 10
| Topic/replies: 6,279 | Blogger: dave1357's blog
Insider trader

You have produced a graph with unspecified axes, based apparently on a metric which has no clear relationship with East Europeans and their effect on wages, and expect me to confirm that it shows something?

If you want me to confirm that (from the data, not your graph) the rate of change in the period 2004 -2007 is less than various arbitrary periods before (but still more than 2007 to present) that then I will.

...

Dave this is not an 'arbitrary periods before' it is on the only datasets I have found provided by the British government.
Report edy November 18, 2017 10:30 AM GMT
Crippy got my post with some creative suggestions on how to express that his idol Nick Griffin is not cool deleted.

Classic
Report dave1357 November 18, 2017 12:27 PM GMT
@ Insider Trader please link to any reputable research that shows that the reason for the stagnation of real earnings from 2007 to present is the influx of Eastern European workers.
Report InsiderTrader November 18, 2017 3:12 PM GMT
@Dave it is from the start of 2005 NOT 2007.

Once you admit the ONS government data shows Gross Disposable Household Income per capita flatting after 2004 NOT 2007/08 we can them move onto if this is a suitable metric.

But at the moment you are not even admitting this is what the government data shows.
Report dave1357 November 18, 2017 4:53 PM GMT
2004    23648
2005    24220
2006    24240
2007    24413

That isn't flat

2007    24413
2008    23872
2009    22681
2010    23141
2011    23261
2012    23149
2013    23314
2014    24022
2015    24442

This is flat

I have already said the first period 2004-07 shows growth at a lower rate than

1995    17848
1996    18397
1997    18890
1998    20152
1999    20441
2000    21232
2001    21912
2002    22502
2003    23268
2004    23648
Report InsiderTrader November 18, 2017 5:22 PM GMT
Finally we have got somewhere!!!!!!

After the A8 got access in 2004 we have had next to no growth in real disposable income per capita.

2005 it was 24220. 2015 it was 24442.

Now onto the metric.

Why do you think Gross Disposable Household Income per capita is a bad metric of quality of life?
Report dave1357 November 18, 2017 5:56 PM GMT
It isn't a good metric to correlate with your hypothesis.  It is affected by tax changes.  It is affected by the makeup of households. It is affected by benefits.  It is affected by the gap between inflation and firms ability/need to increase pay.

Quite obviously if you want make your point you will need to isolate the employment sectors where eastern European immigrants sought employment.  Chart real earnings in those sectors over the long term.  And demonstrate a significant drop/stagnation in specifically those sectors.

Look at this chart.  Click MAX at the bottom

https://tradingeconomics.com/united-kingdom/job-vacancies

What do you make of that?
Report Dr Crippen November 18, 2017 6:29 PM GMT
edy
     18 Nov 17 10:30   

Crippy got my post with some creative suggestions on how to express that his idol Nick Griffin is not cool deleted.

Classic


Yes I've just been reading about it on Youtube.
Report InsiderTrader November 18, 2017 7:38 PM GMT
@Dave

You tell me what you make of your chart?
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