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melv
27 Sep 17 19:09
Joined:
Date Joined: 19 Feb 06
| Topic/replies: 55,488 | Blogger: melv's blog
Why?

(1) Because both Labour and Tories are even money. The wisdom of the market of opinion.
(2) Because things will go from bad to worse for the Tories because Brexit will go from bad to worse.
(3) For the above reason the Tories will continue to tear each other apart. Nevermind Heseltine and Clarke.
(4) For all of the above reasons the Tories will not have the energy to govern and will fk every crisis up.

Also Labour is full of beautiful idealitstic young people bursting with energy and new ideas.[b] [i]Bring it on like[/i] LaughDennis Skinner I cannot wait.
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Report melv October 8, 2017 12:31 PM BST
The new elites will those who control the social media firms and technology?

You are an intelligent man  insider you know technological power sows the the seeds of it own destruction. By its very nature social media will rebel against elites. It will cost nothing and leave no blood shed to take digital power off the elites see Wiki and open source.

New digital technology is by its nature free. And it will liberate us all. And we need the help of the thinkers at the forefront and they need health and education and nothing else.
Report InsiderTrader October 8, 2017 1:01 PM BST
Its a double edged sword melv.

Yes things can get out but remember everything is monitored. The CIA and Tor. VPNs controlled by governments.

In reality internet search is controlled by google. If you dont rank with them no one will find your message.

Facebook and Twitter can delete who they want and their algorithms can move who they want to the top.

Social media/google provides a record of what everyone is up to.

Those who hold this data and have AI algos to exploit it have the power. They can work out what people might do before they do it. They can put infront of you what they want you to read.

Opensource might mean the informed can talk privately. But how do we know that, for instance, governments/elites are not behind open source SSLs and have built themselves a backdoor?

Unless you build your own hardware and encryption software from scratch and monitor everything going in and out of your connection how do you know who is tracking you?
Report melv October 8, 2017 1:27 PM BST
Very good questions Insider. They and even harder one's are precisely what our children will be  asking ( I bet they already are asking them).

As an economist which set up would you rather own and pay premium for. One with any State in control of it. Or one with all the encryption and darkness needed to evade the state.

Of course they will not be needed if the states behave themselves. Digital technology is free in every sense of the world. Woe betide any state caught trying to imprison it.

Oh BTW hi to all the spooks out there. I do post left wing views and I would not be surprised if I am on  one of your little files. Hope that remark does not get this deleted.
Report sageform October 9, 2017 9:25 AM BST
Lets not forget that the real powers behind Corbyn are the more militant trades union bosses who will select and deselect Parliamentary candidates according to their willingness to restore Union power.
Report Whisperingdeath October 9, 2017 11:05 AM BST
I think plenty of Labour MP's need to be deselected! They seem out of touch to what the public wants. Shirley democracy is better served when local parties can choose who they want to represent them?
Report treetop October 9, 2017 1:39 PM BST
That could also apply to the tories W.D, can think of Anna Soubry for one.
Report Whisperingdeath October 9, 2017 2:54 PM BST
yep, being an MP should not be a sinecure.

Too many of them are working for the the big Companies and are taking their shilling. We need to get rid of them whether they be Tories or Labour.
Report sageform October 9, 2017 7:52 PM BST
Surely not right for a small clique to be able to deselect an ELECTED MP just because he or she does not support the latest Corbyn edict.
Report melv October 10, 2017 9:17 PM BST
Quote the Independent 2 Days ago. "Labour has taken a decisive lead in the polls" Please confirm that you are not surprised.

Its a vicious circling spiral weighed down by the total mess of Brexit sucking the Tories to oblivion. Isn't it.They are simply not very bright are they. Their idea that Boris Johnson is brilliant speaks volumes. ECJ is an uncrossable red line says Johnson yesterday. Today ECJ is OK. He just plucks his sayings from thin air. Blowing in the wind. Isn't he.

And labour are keen as youthful mustard and hungry very hungry for victory.

Yet the Tories are 0.13 of a point ahead on here. Interesting.
Report Whisperingdeath October 10, 2017 10:01 PM BST
sageform

The Constituency Labour Parties have systems to vote for whoever they want. there are plenty of members in each constituency to vote down any small clique. Personally I would have voted out any Labour MP who voted for war in Iraq but that did not happen. I think the Scottish fellow got rid of some crazy Blair's Angel in East London...Good! Shame more people did not follow that example. The Labour Mp's suported big business against working people, sold off the silver, privatised the NHS and increased University fees. Why should any of the MP's who supported those attacks against working people be automatically re-selected?
Report anxious October 10, 2017 10:16 PM BST
Correct down with the Blairites , come the Revolution they will be Toast Cool
Report melv October 11, 2017 4:59 AM BST
and Theresa May would still vote remain. Labour must now redouble their preparations for power. "Make Britain Great again; 1945 ideals with plenty for the left behind in the north and Midlands.

They can have Brexit but they did not vote for a particular kind of Brexit. Control of movement must be in any EU deal.

Unless of course national sentiment has clearly swung away from Brexit. Cross that bridge when we come  to it.
Report ufcdan October 11, 2017 9:29 AM BST
04.59 melv ?? Like me I see you too can't sleep at the thought of Corbyn in charge ScaredScaredScared
Report Mighty Whites 2008 October 11, 2017 8:37 PM BST
melv    10 Oct 17 21:17 
Quote the Independent 2 Days ago. "Labour has taken a decisive lead in the polls" Please confirm that you are not surprised.


Aah the polls that ever reliable gauge of public opinion. According to the polls brexit would be defeated, Hillary would be in the white house and Mother Teresa would have a stonking majority.

The likelihood is that baring some type of disaster there wont be an election for some time. The tories have a handy majority with the DUP and it is unlikely tory mps will vote for the sack and opposition.

Labour have had a good summer but whether they can maintain this long term is debatable. Yes they did better than expected in 2017 but are a substantial way away from forming a majority. That is before you question their improved performance. Did the country fall in love with corbyn or were the electorate annoyed at another needless election, wanting to dent the size of the tory majority. In the last days before the election a majority in the region of 100 was being predicted. No one voted for labour expecting to wake up with Jeremy Corbyn in power.

Corbyn and his labour party have a long way to go before they get in to downing street. They will be very fortunate to face such a shambolic election campaign next time where there will be a new tory party leader with new ideas. There will also almost certainly be more focus on the economy.

A week is a long time in politics and I wouldn't be surprised if we are currently at the high water mark for Labour under corbyn.
Report melv October 12, 2017 7:08 AM BST
Corbyn and his labour party have a long way to go before they get in to downing street.

They are well aware of this and the enormity of the 60 seats they must win energises them. They have the power of the underdog. If they lose this power there could be problems.

A week is a long time in politics and I wouldn't be surprised if we are currently at the high water mark for Labour under corbyn.

What? You wouldn't be surprised if Brexit goes smoothly from now on for the 12 months its got left before its all over. What????? you think the civil war in the Tory party is just about to stop???????.

You wouldn't be surprised????? That I'm afraid  says a lot more about you than  the reality on the ground. I know a lot of people think that optimism and "belief" changes the world. I would rather back the side that thinks they have an enormous amount of work to do and are planning for all the worst possible scenarios. I find its hilarious that the right attacks Labour on these grounds for being realistic. OOOOOOOOOhhhh look Labour; the traitors; are planning for the eventuality of capital flight. These are the type of generals I want on my side. Not wishful thinkers who would not be surprised even by a miracle.

I wouldn't be surprised if things go worse. But I have a reason for that. Its seems that that the EU are going to say  that there will be no progress in talks until at least December. That leaves us with about 10 months to sort this mess out and we have not got off the starting line yet. That's why I would not be surprised if things get much worse for the Tories.
Report InsiderTrader October 12, 2017 8:47 AM BST
It really depends if people can be convinced that communism is the best way to run a country.

If enough people are struggling (really struggling not just struggling to pay their phone contract) then fear and division peddled by the likes of John McDonnell could be enough for the first communist revolution in the UK.
Report Whisperingdeath October 12, 2017 9:54 AM BST
I think plenty of people are struggling Insider trader but it is not so much the struggle as lack of hope or confidence. I think things would have to get a lot worse for  Communist type revolution, a lot worse and I don't think we are heading there unless something seriously goes wrong.

What I do think is that the country is fed up with playing against a **** deck. The rich are getting richer....too rich and they are so greedy they are sucking up everything they can without thinking about the consequences. They are leaving a society that will not be able to afford to but their products. They are also creating large underclasses of people with no real hope for the future of their children and that is dangerous.

How much Corporation Tax do the big companies pay? The Tech Cmpanies particularly when compared to the traditional Companies? Uber just stated that paying National Insurance will cost their business model tens of millions for their 50,000 drivers?  They want to use the infratsructure we paid for to run their business and take the untaxed profits offshore!

We are many they are few. Things will change unfortunately the only option we have to change things is this Labour Party and we are in danger of the lunatics taking over the asylum. It will end up a lose lose.
Report InsiderTrader October 12, 2017 10:30 AM BST
Indeed.

The model used to tax bookmakers in the UK is a good one I think. The point of consumption tax and licensing stops multinationals servicing UK customers from abroad. The way to tax Uber, Starbucks, Amazon etc is a point of consumption tax charged on UK sales or gross profits (do not allow paying for IP to be part of costs before GP). Small coffee shops, internet firms etc could be exempt. Use this money to cut taxes on start ups and small/medium sized firms. 

There needs to be a re-balance away from multinationals and huge firms. Anti-trust laws should be used breakup up firms like google. They should not be able to control google and youtube and gmail etc. It is too much power in one place.

The cards are stacked against small business due to crazy regulations that benefit big business. New ideas are being stopped at source. Every big company was small once.

The trouble with Marxism is I do not see where any innovation can come from. It just results in a new ruling class of box tickers and everyone trying to work their way up the 'party' to get a better lifestyle.
Report bigpoppapump October 12, 2017 11:07 AM BST
The cards are stacked against small business due to crazy regulations that benefit big business. New ideas are being stopped at source. Every big company was small once.

Think about what you've written.

Every big company was small once.  Okay, makes sense.
New ideas are being stopped at source.  examples please?
The cards are stacked against small business.  Apart from, you say, some of these small businesses do become big. 

so the idea - that a business has a right to survival (in the face of competition) seems strange.  Can you say why small comapnies are inherently good, just because they are small? 

In the wake of the financial crisis, when many traditional sources of credit for small businesses and individual consumers dried up, into their niche slid a thousand bucket shop pay day lending outfits.  all they neede was some capital and some kids on the phone, and they were in business.  These were small businesses.  Are they what we want to see?  Are these "new ideas"? 

You are conflating the unreasonable way big companies may do business (you may have a point - I know of examples in my own world) with big = bad, small = good.  which lacks any sort of merit as an argument.

specific business practises = bad.  (for example, systemic underpayment of tax.  Or avoidance of safety legislation).
Report anxious October 12, 2017 11:08 AM BST
Good posts the last 2 WD AND IT
Report anxious October 12, 2017 11:12 AM BST
The truth is that the underclass in this country was created by thatcher and the idea first came from some american guy Charles Murray when i think he said if you had 2 thirds of the population with a reasonable standard of living then it didnt matter about the bottom third , now we have 2 thirds in the bottom heap nearly
Report InsiderTrader October 12, 2017 11:32 AM BST
Every big company was small once.  Okay, makes sense.
New ideas are being stopped at source.  examples please?
The cards are stacked against small business.  Apart from, you say, some of these small businesses do become big.


Ok.

When the big bookies went online a lot of them started affiliate programs.

A lot of small websites appeared that promoted the bookmakers in return for a share of revenues.

Fast forward to 2017 some of the firms that were small are now big. They are welcoming regulation and private deal that they can easily comply to due to economies of scale. Had these regulations been in place in 2000 none of these websites would have got off the ground.

It is a case of bigger operations pulling up the ladder behind them once they get big.

I am sure it is the case in social media. The big firms now policing posts and videos and taking stuff down. A new social media firm will now struggle to compete as they will not have the resources to comply to these type of regulations that the big operations readily agree to.
Report bigpoppapump October 12, 2017 12:49 PM BST
but if you want to start a business isn't the key to have an idea?  you seem to be advocating for start ups to do things which are already being done?  why shouldn't established businesses protect their own interests?  there's nothing inherently wrong with this.  by definition, if you don't have a fresh idea, you're not starting something new, you're copying an existing business.
Report Whisperingdeath October 12, 2017 12:58 PM BST
Thecards are stacked against small business because big business can speak and deal directly with Government and the Tax Authorities.

I wonder when was the last time anyone on this forum had lunch with the Prime Minister or had lunch with the Inland Revenue?

It is not a case that small is good and big is bad, nothing to do with that but the distortion of the market and rules due to size and power weilded.
Report InsiderTrader October 12, 2017 12:59 PM BST
That makes no sense.

How many businesses are truely revolutionary?

For instance Facebook started in 2004, twitter in 2006, Instagram 2010 and so on.

They are all different. But will all have similar regulations put on them now.
Report bigpoppapump October 12, 2017 1:07 PM BST
That makes no sense.

How many businesses are truely revolutionary?


what makes no sense?  businesses don't have to be revolutionary - they have to make money.
Report Whisperingdeath October 12, 2017 1:27 PM BST
These big businesses are fking up our lives and they need to be checked. We are not here to serve their needs. We do not need to provide and pay for the infrastructure they use for nix! They need to pay their share and any cacksucker apologist for a system that is going to break itself soon is more than welcome to continue what they do best!
Report lfc1971 October 12, 2017 1:31 PM BST
Ah , well if these poor countries are going to want to be less poor they are going to have to invent something, and build it themselves and sell it to us.
Until they do so stop complaining about people in America, or Britain etc.
You know , the ones that gave to come up with the ideas .
That's not easy you know.
Report lfc1971 October 12, 2017 1:33 PM BST
So see there may be 2 billion people who don't eat properly. Well I suggest that those countries are doing something wrong.
Perhaps they should stop doing it.
Report InsiderTrader October 12, 2017 1:34 PM BST
bigpoppapump,

You have lost me now.

Are you saying you support big business supporting regulation and avoiding tax making it hard for new firms to compete or you are in favour of them?
Report lfc1971 October 12, 2017 1:37 PM BST
There are different types of business, but to create something new is revolutionary . That is something that very few countries or people can do.
Be thankful that we gave some countries, and some people who can.
Report lfc1971 October 12, 2017 1:39 PM BST
That is something that people like bp don't understand, and why he is not grateful .
no one likes to be grateful.
Report lfc1971 October 12, 2017 1:41 PM BST
Now when someone from China learns how to fly I will say well done China.
But there is no sign of anything like that from china just yet.
Report Whisperingdeath October 12, 2017 1:43 PM BST
and yet China is buying up Africa!
Report lfc1971 October 12, 2017 1:45 PM BST
Of course , are there any poor people in China, and any poor people in Africa ?
Report melv October 12, 2017 1:48 PM BST
a system that is going to break itself soon

The system we are talking about does everything it can to ensure that it is too big to fail. It is Brocken and when it fails it will sure as hell it makes sure that we bail it out again. And we will, or most of us will; and most of us will accept that it all our fault. Its all our fault for getting into debt again and we will accept another round of austerity as punishment for our sins.

Its a bloomin protection racket. And it works because most of us think we are so weak we need protecting and we are sinners and need to do penance and fasting and abstinence and every other form of self denial.

But how does this all make sense. Because its all about confidence, credibility and legitimacy. Because we have no confidence in ourselves we always confer it onto the big boys and the more they fail the more we hand over the commonwealth of the world that belongs to all.

And what is the most common curse laid upon those who dare say the naked emperors have no clothes. "You are a communist" they proclaim and the poor and the weak and the worried rush to hand even more of the worlds resources to big brother and his mates.
Report lfc1971 October 12, 2017 1:48 PM BST
Does China understand why for the first time in its history it doesn't seem to falling victim to massive starvation every few years. As common a part of Chinese life as the decades in a persons life.
Report lfc1971 October 12, 2017 1:50 PM BST
Well I can tell you, they don't know why . They will have their theories but they will be wrong.
Report lfc1971 October 12, 2017 2:08 PM BST
You se the communists will say that every communist country in the world was fu@ed up , with mass starvation and concentration camps and curtailing of freedoms and civil liberties .
But that that was all an anomaly , a great mistake and it wasn't the fault of the communists
And that itcwas the fault of the free and democratic countries , and that what we need is more communism not less
Preferably that the whole world should be communist, and then it would be different.
They really are that stupid.
Report lfc1971 October 12, 2017 2:17 PM BST
Of course they may not call it communism, but they are the same people who will call it by a different name and with the same outcome, they are dishonest as well as stupid in that way.
Report InsiderTrader October 12, 2017 2:23 PM BST
The answer to crony capitalism and monopolies is not communism.
Report melv October 12, 2017 2:51 PM BST
I never said we were communists because the bankers financiers and the other "masters of the universe" use these words to discredit us.

We merely want to build a better more stable more sustainable more peaceful and more logical world for all.
Report lfc1971 October 12, 2017 2:56 PM BST
There you go, that's how the communists used to talk.
so you know what type of people they are whatever they call themselves.
Report lfc1971 October 12, 2017 2:58 PM BST
don't trust people who talk that way, they don't deserve to be trusted.
Report anxious October 12, 2017 4:57 PM BST
Bring down the banks and the Illumanti
Report treetop October 12, 2017 7:00 PM BST
The truth is that the underclass in this country was created by thatcher

ffs anxious,how can you blame that on thatcher ? We were all part of the underclass before her but she helped some to apsire and raise their standard of living,it may not have been perfect but many did improve their lot. Mrs T and two of her mates were out yesterday and all 3 of them came from solid working class,went to secondary moderns and remarked how they had much betetr lives than their parents.They have all had redundancies but worked instead of claiming benefits galore,eschewed mobile phones,satellite TV's,smoking,etc and rarely had overseas holidays to pay for mortgages and pensions.Perhaps it is our expectations that have risen recently in the socialist minds ?
Report anxious October 12, 2017 7:10 PM BST
Tree i agree there has been an increase in trivial pursuits like holidays, tvs , phones , fast food mostly all created by spiv culture , but the important things like the NHS, Education , social care etc have all been battered and neglected , the working class have been bribed for the last 35 years  and now especially after the financial crash and austerity its all gone to pot
Report InsiderTrader October 12, 2017 7:31 PM BST
Is the NHS worse now than it was before Thatcher?
Report treetop October 12, 2017 7:35 PM BST
I believe,year on year there has been more people employed on the NHS, lfc stated a while back it was 150,000 in the 50's but now over 1,400,000 but the demand is infinite.We have to stop treating it as sacred and demand the NHS managers start to manage instead of always passing the buck upstairs.
Report anxious October 12, 2017 7:39 PM BST
Yes i think it is far worse than it was in the 80s , there are now private cowboy firms running half the contracts in the nhs and social care , even non urgent aumbulance services one of which went bust last week down south, that and trusts stuffed with managers on massive contracts contributing very little.
Report melv October 13, 2017 12:15 AM BST
The young people powering the labour victory will not be debating the pro's and cons of Maggie Thatcher. They are living their lives now and will not be interested in what was going on in there Granddads days.
Report treetop October 13, 2017 12:22 AM BST
And they will make the same pointless mistakes melv ? Its only a matter of time before we lose the stability we have taken for granted so long.
Report InsiderTrader October 13, 2017 8:15 AM BST
Anxious,

You think that the level of care, survival rates, number of treatments, choice of care, number of appointments given is all worse now than in the 1970s?

In short you would be happy to see funding and outcomes return to the levels they were in the 1970s?
Report InsiderTrader October 13, 2017 8:15 AM BST
(inflation adjusted)
Report anxious October 13, 2017 10:05 AM BST
IT im not arguing about just about the amounts of money , a lot of it is going to private cowboy firms and pen pushing useless trusts and management
Report lfc1971 October 13, 2017 10:16 AM BST
We have to ask what are the 1.4million NHS workers doing that they were not doing in 1950.
Given that we are not living any longer and people back then were getting ill and dying at exactly the same rate as today , that's a rate of 100% then and now
Report anxious October 13, 2017 10:21 AM BST
The poor are dying earlier if you look at the facts , this is mainly because of Tory cuts and Austerity
Report lfc1971 October 13, 2017 10:27 AM BST
That is correct anxious that the poor are dying , possibly a little earlier I don't know , and so are the rich dying and perhaps living a little longer, not much if any . But of course they often don't use the NHS .
So what is the reason for the 1.4 million NHS workers, what are they all doing ?
Report anxious October 13, 2017 10:33 AM BST
A lot of them are trust managers doing nothing except wasting money
Report anxious October 13, 2017 10:34 AM BST
You cannot run the NHS  as if it were a profit making bussiness
Report lfc1971 October 13, 2017 10:38 AM BST
And of course they tend not to keep people in hospital now if they can possibly help it, they have you in and out , sometimes you have to leave in the middle of the night in your dressing gown and a taxi ,
They never did that to you in the 1950s , they liked to keep you in hospital if possible then.
Report anxious October 13, 2017 10:44 AM BST
Indeed one guy i know had his pre med tablet and went down to theatre only for the surgeons assistant to phone up and say he was stuck in a massive traffic jam , the patient was very nervous and distressed and had to be further sedated and sent home still waiting for his gall -bladder to be removed
Report anxious October 13, 2017 10:45 AM BST
I have heard them shout now bring the gall bladders and Kidneys down , your not even a number these days
Report lfc1971 October 13, 2017 10:46 AM BST
There is no good reason why the NHS budget should not be cut quite drastically and money saved on the NHS and the vast numbers employed reduced and the NHS reorganised in a sane and good way .
It is madness that a country this size employs 1.4 million people , what percentage of people is that for everyone who might be sick , How many millions of us are sick, I would have thought very few of us are sick. I don't know.
Report lfc1971 October 13, 2017 10:49 AM BST
If you venture out today you will see hundreds , perhaps thousands of people who are not sick .
And then of course there will be a few people who are sick , at home today. But will return to work on Monday .
Although I would recommend returning on Tuesday , it never nice to go back on Monday.
Report anxious October 13, 2017 10:54 AM BST
You prefer a long weekend i think
Report lfc1971 October 13, 2017 10:58 AM BST
anxious I think young people should work hard , and work long hours . Especially when they are young it is good for them
In the NHS there are doctors working 3 day weeks , they are not putting the hours in .
Report lfc1971 October 13, 2017 11:03 AM BST
I used to if possible try to work 100 hrs overtime a month , because overtime at time and a half it meant you were doubling your monthly wage .
Report lfc1971 October 13, 2017 11:05 AM BST
And then of course it was nice , to have a chance if sick, very rarely ! , to return to work perhaps mid week.
It's much easier than going back in on a Monday.
Report lfc1971 October 13, 2017 11:09 AM BST
I am quite sure there will be millions of Britains who are not sick today.
What will the 1.4 million NHS workers find to do ?
I don't know.
Report anxious October 13, 2017 11:15 AM BST
Long hours to the point of exhaustion , do you want doctors and nurses working 10 hour shifts , have you been transported back the Victorian Values of Thatcher
Report lfc1971 October 13, 2017 11:21 AM BST
anxious not to exhaustion , it is a balance. I am just saying that is good for a young person to work hard , and yes long hours.
Safety is largel a matter of having the right processes in place and people working as a team .
I am a great believer in people working in pairs at least .
Someone can spot if something is going wrong, and if that way of working is backed up by a good and careful, not pressurised system that things are best .
It is better if people are prepared to work and put in the hours and not leave it to individuals to find themselves perhaps alone and making  tough decisions on their own.
Report bigpoppapump October 13, 2017 12:07 PM BST
Laugh

so you want 2.8m employed by the NHS?
Report melv October 13, 2017 4:38 PM BST
And they will make the same pointless mistakes melv ?

What? Thatcherism was the mistake.
Report treetop October 13, 2017 10:43 PM BST
aah, the old favourite to blame for all of life's ills ! ffs ,let's move on , the left praise communism when Stalin killed 10 million and Mao killed 30 million, Castro and Pol Pot plenty too , maggie was a saint by comparison,grow up lads.
Report melv October 14, 2017 5:19 AM BST
Tree top. Nobody  talks more about blaming all of life's ills on some scapegoat or other. Usually skin colour, religion, other cultural differnces and indeed. trendies and lefties; than the right and extreme right.

I would hope that the left would not do this. Otherwise we are both the same and surely isn't being a lefty about being an alternative  to the right wing mentality.

However surely surely surely there is nothing wrong with learning from past mistakes. Infact surely thats what intelligence is for.

In future Brexit will be seen as one of the biggest mistakes ever and we will learn from it.

Everyone will see that Brexit was a waste of Bilions of pounds and a waste of at least 5 years of time only to deliberately leap over a catastrophic cliff that we all saw coming up years in advance.

Unless of course we do not do the such an act of national self harm and back the fk off.
Report InsiderTrader October 14, 2017 8:49 AM BST
Melv how can you have your communist utopia and still want to be part of a failed European Nationalist group run by unelected power hungry old men controlled by multinationals and bankers?

How does the EU's treatment of the socialist government in Greece sit with you?
Report melv October 14, 2017 12:50 PM BST
Ask Yanis Varoufaakis he knows more about the total bstdness of the Eurocrats than anyone. He says we must stay in. Stay in and fight the good fight. Fight for a Europe that is as great as it should be. Jaysus how hard can it be to beat Trumps America. When Europe lives up to its reputation as the centre of enlightenment of the world the whole planet will benefit. But we cannot get rid of the Eurocrats from outside.

Macron is trying to lead reform. Its a start.

And they will do there best to fk us over. A brexit deal that's good for the UK without us being in the customs union the single market the free movement area  and the ECJ will be seen as an attack on the integrity of the  European Union and they simply will not allow it. The deal will be on their terms or the will make daaamn sure its a bad deal for us.
Report InsiderTrader October 14, 2017 2:00 PM BST
melv,

As a communist are you in favour of Macron's proposed reforms?
Report melv October 15, 2017 4:28 AM BST
Many are saying that its impossible to reform Europe from within. I never said it would be easy and I never said it would be quick. And  how can I ever say I want more democracy but only if people are allowed  to put forward policies that I approve of. Its a start. I do approve of the mind set that says the EU needs reeform and the EU can reformed.
Report melv October 15, 2017 8:53 AM BST
As communism means Stalin, Lenin, Trotsky, Mao, Ppl Pot and a many other totalitarian mass murderers.

I do however believe that in the Future we will have a world much better that this one. Its easy.

https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=imagine+john+lennon

Way over a hundred million hits says the world can be a better place. The free market will not do it for you.

Vote Labour.
Report melv October 15, 2017 8:55 AM BST
As communism means Stalin, Lenin, Trotsky, Mao, Pol Pot and a many other totalitarian mass murderers. I am absolutely not a communist.
Report treetop October 15, 2017 3:37 PM BST
Macron is trying to lead reform. Its a start.

melv,I am tired of reading this concept ofreform by the EU, it hasn't happened and will not happen becuase the EU is effectively run on the mandarin style of government by people who feel they know better and are deaf to pleas for reform,just recall the shameful treatment of Cameron when he hawked himself around Europe before the referendum,the treatment of Greece andmore recently Poland/Hungary when tehy complain about mass immigration. The bureaucrats are deliberately trying to weaken the nation state allegiance with mass immigration that has no british/german/french,etc allegiance to generate loyalty to Brussels,the level of deceit is shameful.
Report melv October 15, 2017 4:05 PM BST
Why do you think you are the only person who has noticed the appalling behaviour of the EU Mandarins. Why do you think that millions of other people have not noticed it. Why are you implying that the European project would rather be destroyed than to reform itself.

Macron and Yanis Varoufakis are lobbying for reform to name but 2.

I am sorry you are sick. What do you want us to do about your poorly tummy.
Report melv October 15, 2017 4:08 PM BST
Sorry Treetop. You are tired not sick. Give it a rest then.
Report sageform October 16, 2017 9:13 AM BST
Melv, as long as the Commission exists in its current form and seems to have the support of a majority of member states, reform will be very difficult other than increasing federalism. Junckers latest state of the Union address signaled the direction of travel. If he gets his way, a UK inside the EU would lose the right to: opt out of the working hours directive or the Schengen agreement, have an independent military force or defense policy, have the pound as a currency, have zero VAT on food, etc. etc. That is the reforms that will probably happen. He was really magnanimous in allowing member states to have authority over minor domestic issues such as the ones that are delegated to local councils at the moment.
Report lfc1971 October 16, 2017 9:19 AM BST
no one should be bothered to think about reforming something that is fundamentally and in principle wrong,
That us nonsense ...and too much trouble.
Report lfc1971 October 16, 2017 9:24 AM BST
you see don't trust people like melv with their slippery voices talking about reform , by that he simply means more of the same,
People like that don't want reform , they use that to maintain things as they are and to try to divert from the real and fundamental issues. they  are dishonest like that .
Report sageform October 16, 2017 9:29 AM BST
But my point is that staying in the EU is not a vote for no change! Fundamental change is on the way and we need to leave before it happens. The direction of travel is to abolish national Governments in all but name which could make it impossible to leave. Ask the Catalans.
Report treetop October 16, 2017 7:48 PM BST
Thanks for your apology melv,refreshing to know we can debate politely without resorting to insults.However,despite people like Branson nad others wishing my generation to expire quickly I am still soldiering on and have to applaud sagey's understanding of the longer term,political motives of the EU to weaken the allegiance of nation states (Merkel throwing german flag into the bin) in order to create an EU nation state ruled from Brussels. I am tempted to speculate this has been one of the most deceitful moves, pushing mass immigration from withn the EU and from outside to reduce the allegiances of the indegenous populations of the 28 states over time by dilution.It corresponds with Blair pushing devolution and regional assemblies to bypass Westminster.
Report melv October 16, 2017 10:30 PM BST
It just keeps getting worse for the Tories.

They are responsible for the referendum that they held purely to buy power. They never believed that we would vote out. The had no plan and no idea what "Out" meant why should they? They never thought we would leave.

They actually thought German business Mercedes. BMW, Volkswagen etc etc etc would be batting for the UK.ExcitedLaughLaughLaughLaughLaughLaughLaughLaughLaughLaughLaughLaughLaughLaughLaughLaughLaugh

They still have no plan and they still do not know what they are doing. All they can do it supress bad news and have a fall guy scape goat corpse Lady ready for sacrifice when it finally blows up.
Report drive for show putt for dough October 16, 2017 10:38 PM BST
The negotiations are going to go nowhere until the last minute it will be like transfer deadline day!

Both sides will blame the other, those wanting to make mischief will blame the government. Ultimately it will come down to what the french and germans can agree with us. The german businesses you mention melv will certainly let the german government know what they want.

At the last gasp will come some kind of deal which will almost certainly be determined by the events of that moment.
Report drive for show putt for dough October 16, 2017 10:38 PM BST
The negotiations are going to go nowhere until the last minute it will be like transfer deadline day!

Both sides will blame the other, those wanting to make mischief will blame the government. Ultimately it will come down to what the french and germans can agree with us. The german businesses you mention melv will certainly let the german government know what they want.

At the last gasp will come some kind of deal which will almost certainly be determined by the events of that moment.
Report drive for show putt for dough October 16, 2017 10:38 PM BST
The negotiations are going to go nowhere until the last minute it will be like transfer deadline day!

Both sides will blame the other, those wanting to make mischief will blame the government. Ultimately it will come down to what the french and germans can agree with us. The german businesses you mention melv will certainly let the german government know what they want.

At the last gasp will come some kind of deal which will almost certainly be determined by the events of that moment.
Report melv October 17, 2017 6:34 AM BST
BBC radio 4 this morning says that if there is no Brexit Movement in December it will officially be a crisis.

Now will you Brexiteers calm down for a minute turn on the rational part of your brain and ask the following question.


"In whose interest would it be for there to be a crisis in December."


I will give you a clue the EU want us to put a huge wad of money on the table.


Have we got the slightest iota of a clue want we want?

( OH yeah to sail off into the Atlantic to the sunlit uplands of a new British Empire with a tiger in our tank. And if you think that's the rational side of your brain working with that idea. Good luck. It just sounds daft to your children and grand children and they are the one's who will have to do the work and pay the rent)

And to return to the opening subject.

"Can Theresa May survive another crisis?
Report sageform October 17, 2017 8:25 AM BST
There will of course be short term pain when we leave the EU but I was listening to an economist this morning who spelt out the likely scenario. We get preferred nation staus with the EU which entails 3.5% tariffs on goods moving into the EU and vice versa while we are able to reduce or abolish tariffs (typically 20% or more inside the EU) with Australia, Canada, Brazil and anywhere else we want to trade with. I will keep repeating that the EU is one of the most protected markets in the world. If we lose that protection, some industries will be adversely affected but others will thrive. There was an interesting report recently from Russia. Since Putin banned imports of food from the EU in response to sanctions, Russian agriculture is having a great time with dairy production already double what it was before the embargo.
Report bigpoppapump October 17, 2017 10:29 AM BST
sageform - interesting points regards the rebalancing of where we source our food and where the prices ultimately settle.  With regards to the Russian example you've mentioned. 

do you think the relative size of Russia geographically and its population, as opposed to the size of the Uk and its population may mean the two countries have different abilities to feed themselves?

I expect the UK will have to produce more of its own food, post-Brexit, but because pf the simple size/population equation we'll still need to import most of our food.

  There'll be fewer, if any (in the short term) European imports, and thus a radically reduced choice.  Meat will be much more expensive in the short-term, until we start to import the US produced stuff in replacement for the EU stuff.

We can leave the EU, but we cannot leave the world.  Food will still need to be imported.  FWIW, anyone not creating their own stores of food, in the event of shortages and supermarket crises, is irresponsible in my view.  You've got to know you can feed the kids even if the supermarkets have short term problems with supply.
Again - an interesting macro/micro comparison.  You can throw out the idea of risk management and vote to leave the EU for the uncertainty of a new deal with the world.  but in your own life, you cannot not have then next few week's food covered in the event of supply chain blockages.
Report InsiderTrader October 17, 2017 10:57 AM BST
54% of our food comes from UK, 27% from EU. Only 4% each from Africa, Asia, NA and SA.

The tarifs imposed on food coming into the EU is the reason for those low numbers ROW.

We also export to the EU.

If that stops we can eat it ourselves or trade in with ROW.

If the food does not go off coming from outside Europe it is likely we can source it from elsewhere.

Also we do not have to put a tariff on EU meat just because they decide to put one on us.
Report bigpoppapump October 17, 2017 11:10 AM BST
yes we do.  (to the last point).

think about the politics of it.

but the essence is correct in my view, unquestionably the best reason to leave the EU is to be free from the inequities of the CAP.

Unless you're a British farmer.
Report sageform October 17, 2017 1:56 PM BST
I am a retired farmer and had farms both here and in Brazil. The latter is the best and cheapest source of beef, pigmeat and increasingly chicken but the EU won't allow it in. I'm sure that Brazil will be delighted to talk about sending meat here in exchange for reducing their high import taxes on industrial goods from UK.
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