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alun2005
03 Nov 16 13:52
Joined:
Date Joined: 11 Jan 02
| Topic/replies: 18,524 | Blogger: alun2005's blog
If truth be told it never counted for much anyway unless you lived in a Marginal Constituency, but rest assured in a Referendum your vote is now completely meaningless. It is defenceless against the combination of the wishes of a rich campaigner (even if they aren't British-born) and an unelected activist judge.

Even if 99% of the country (or MPs) had voted for Brexit, the High Court would have ruled exactly as they did today, because the complaint and court judgement was all about 'process', not about numbers.

Your view is of no consequence. Hope that helps.
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Report melv November 4, 2016 10:11 AM GMT
We are out of the EU I am sure. If you think there is mandate for more than that; dream on. But but I know there are wild expectations. These have to be taken very every seriously.

I think all these constitutional crises are symptoms of the difficulties of mangling and managing  these mad expectations and calming you lot down. It may take a while and it will not be  easy.

More swivel eyes on TV shaking with fury and shouting at members of parliament . "Get us get us out get us out now now now. Do your job" will help moderate the more sensible of the leavers.
Report InsiderTrader November 4, 2016 10:17 AM GMT
melv
04 Nov 16 09:54
Joined: 19 Feb 06
| Topic/replies: 4,666 | Blogger: melv's blog
Insider. Do you accept that we do have borders. There actually is no total openness. We already have border controls. I am sure this will not change in my life time.

...

We have open borders to the EU. Anyone from the EU can move to any other EU state. Anyone who Germany or Sweden decides to give an EU passport to can move to any other EU state. This is the ultimate Trojan horse.

It is supported by a coalition of self-interested parties:

1. The metro-middle class. They want their high house prices and cheap cleaners/waiters. They are driven by the keeping up with the Jones syndrome. They fail to work out they (or more likely their kids) are next on the list to fall into poverty as AI/population growth take the jobs.

2. The Labour party who want a client state of voters for the future.

3. The rich who want cheap labour and be able to sell tariff free to richer countries. Like the slave economy of the Southern states this cannot last forever.

4. The globalists who want supranational unaccountable organisations in their control. Things like the UN, the EU, IMF etc where the elite can control the world behind the scenes. For this to work national identities need to be destroyed by merging world populations through mass migration.

....

Those opposing the destruction of national identity are those outside the metro areas who are less of the 'iphone' pop culture. They want good jobs and a reasonable lifestyle to be maintained with the wealth of the nation shared and not given away.
Report mobo November 4, 2016 10:22 AM GMT
its foreigners messing with our democratic rights, votes etc.
Report mobo November 4, 2016 10:30 AM GMT
watch ali brown and the sky presenter ganging up on one brexiteer - the presenter is interupting and shouting her down - amazing bias as usual
we all know most of the bbc and sky news are remainers
Report InsiderTrader November 4, 2016 10:36 AM GMT
If the globalists can keep this going just a few more years the job will be done in terms of destroying the nations. The more migrants that move and are able to vote in the UK/ USA/ Germany etc the more they vote for more immigration. Thus nation states gone.

If anyone complains scream they are a racist. The playbook is not rocket science.
Report Dr Crippen November 4, 2016 11:00 AM GMT
You can't leave the EU and remain a member of the single market.

The EU is built around the single market.
Report jajabink November 4, 2016 11:02 AM GMT
"Former deputy prime minister Nick Clegg - now the Lib Dems' Europe spokesman - said his party would seek to join with others "in both the House of Commons and the House of Lords to amend the legislation" to tell the government to pursue a "soft Brexit" that would keep the UK within the EU's single market.
He told Radio 4's Today that he also wanted to give the public "a say" on the final deal after EU negotiations are complete.

**** off clegg, this all a ploy to at least delay brexit & possibly avoid it ,, sore losers just accept the way people voted, the woman that bought the chaos yesterday has a £30 milliion fortune so that says it all, mp's voted 6 to 1 for a referendum and the people have spoken , i have a horrible feeling that we will stay in the single market and continue to let more people into our already overcrowded island, if that happens "im never voting again", country is a joke we had a vote and leave won and now rich people are throwing their toys out of the pram.
Report jajabink November 4, 2016 11:06 AM GMT
you can stay in the single market but we have to accept free movement as well, absolute joke, if it was the other way round and remain won, it wouldve of been business as usual, i voted leave but never expected to win, people are sick of eu laws and free movement and its mostly low income earners that are shouting the most, the country as  it is doesnt work for people earning under 20k a year, simple !!!
Report sageform November 4, 2016 11:09 AM GMT
Being a member of the single market and having access are 2 entirely different things. Almost every country has access to the EU market, the things that vary are the terms of trade. My main objection to yesterdays events are the chaos that will ensue and the fat fees that so many bureaucrats, lawyers and politicians will get from the delay and arguing while the hard working population will pick up the bill as usual. I would love to see the Judges, Lawyers, EU Commissioners, trade negotiators, political journalists et. al. out of work and doing something else to increase our prosperity instead of reducing it but that will never happen.
Report InsiderTrader November 4, 2016 11:12 AM GMT
Its one of their ploys. Remember the fuel crisis? The idea is when people get a cause try and defuse it by offering something. Then when it dies down and people are dispersed its business as usual for the elites with nothing changing.

Clegg and the metro-morons have no idea what is going on outside London.
Report Dr Crippen November 4, 2016 11:18 AM GMT
The joke is that we invade countries in order to install democracy.
Yet if this Brexit judgement is upheld, we clearly haven't got democracy ourselves.

Nick Clegg by the way is a typical self serving politician.
He almost destroyed the Lib/Dems with his own aspirations, and now has his eyes on a cushy well paid non-job within the EU.
Which will vanish down the drain if we leave the EU.
That idea of a possible EU post is shared by many MPs besides Mr I'm looking after No 1 Clegg.
Which explains why so many of them are pro-EU.
Report mobo November 4, 2016 11:20 AM GMT
didn't clegg come from an eu job? or am I wrong?
Report Burton-Brewers November 4, 2016 11:24 AM GMT
Clegg actually wanted to be a Tory MP he worked as an assistant to I think Leon Brittan, he jumped to the Libs when he couldn't get selected for a Tory seat.
Report Dr Crippen November 4, 2016 11:25 AM GMT
Clegg's got EU in his DNA.
Report unitedbiscuits November 4, 2016 11:25 AM GMT
Your jaundiced eye does not see the full picture, Dr Crippen. Nick Clegg has a Spanish wife and lives there part of the year. Reason enough to be a lover of the project. But he also is passionate about the future of this country. He does not want his children growing up the poor relations of Europe.
Report Dr Crippen November 4, 2016 11:31 AM GMT
UB, you're even more naïve than I gave you credit for.

You really should grow up and see the world as it really is.

You're just a sucker dancing to the tune of people like Clegg. You lose they win.

And you still can't see what they're game is, even as they're pulling down your trousers.
Report Burton-Brewers November 4, 2016 11:33 AM GMT
Clegg is only passionate about Clegg that's why he jumped into bed with the first mob to hold back the sheets for him.
Report Dr Crippen November 4, 2016 11:35 AM GMT
Nick Clegg has a Spanish wife and lives there part of the year. Reason enough to be a lover of the project.

What difference does that make?

Farage has a German wife doesn't he?
Report anxious November 4, 2016 11:37 AM GMT
Clegg and the lib dems collaborated with tories in 2010 that wont be forgotten in  a hurry
Report Dr Crippen November 4, 2016 11:38 AM GMT
And you still can't see what they're game is, even as they're pulling down your trousers.

''their game is''


I had correct that before UB jumps on it. He's usually reduced to snatching at straws at this point.
Report InsiderTrader November 4, 2016 11:38 AM GMT
unitedbiscuits
04 Nov 16 11:25
Joined: 27 Jan 02
| Topic/replies: 5,841 | Blogger: unitedbiscuits's blog
Your jaundiced eye does not see the full picture, Dr Crippen. Nick Clegg has a Spanish wife and lives there part of the year. Reason enough to be a lover of the project. But he also is passionate about the future of this country. He does not want his children growing up the poor relations of Europe.

...

The poor relations of Europe in terms of countries are Spain and Greece which have been destroyed by the EU.

But the real poor relations are those people in the once rich countries that have seem their jobs and wealth looted by the superrich who use the EU for their own means. Amazing some people, even now, are still into the EU due to their shinny offerings to not see through it.
Report Burton-Brewers November 4, 2016 11:43 AM GMT
well said anx
Report sageform November 4, 2016 2:11 PM GMT
Have you not noticed that the whole of the EU is in steady economic decline with mass unemployment and bankrupt banks? Why on earth will the UK be the poor relation? The decision by the judges to frustrate Brexit has knocked 200 points off the Footsie in 24 hours so the markets think we would be much better getting out as soon as possible. I wonder if they sold short before making the announcement?
Report sageform November 4, 2016 2:14 PM GMT
Just listening to Tim Faroon. What total nonsense some people talk. Did we vote against Europol he asks? Surely there are plenty of non EU countries that use international police co-operation as well? The assumption that leaving the EU club automatically excludes us from all international organisations is a total lie.
Report tony57 November 4, 2016 3:00 PM GMT
i predict if the goverment lose the appeal..the pm will put the bill before parliment and dare them to vote it down..i know many labour mps will not ..they know they will be destroyed, if they defy the elected goverment then she will call a g e..she will make it a vote of confidence issue..as we all know atm..labour will be wiped out ..so imvho..i think the goverment will get vote through ...
Report ZenMaster November 4, 2016 3:15 PM GMT
We will Leave the EU but stay members of the single market by paying into it as we are now.

So UK exports will be regulated by EU rules as they are now.
However, the UK will still be able to trade far and wide with other nations, without EU interference?
EU nationals will not qualify for benefits/top ups, but will be free to work in the UK.

If leavers don't like this then they will have to get behind a party who's manifesto revolves around leaving the single market.

I am coming to terms with it.
Report tony57 November 4, 2016 3:27 PM GMT
we will not..
we will leave the single market if the eu demand fom is to stay..the worst thing is this may take longer because of a general election..but as ive explained..i dont belive enough mps would vote against the goverment when it asks for article 50 to be triggerd...if they do ..labour know they will have to grant pm a vote on fixed parliment act and have a election....these mps realise the publics anger..plus labours unpopularity....
Report Dr Crippen November 4, 2016 3:28 PM GMT
the pm will put the bill before parliment

Yes but what will the terms of the vote be?

It will have to be debated first, creating an opportunity to add strings and conditions.
Report Dr Crippen November 4, 2016 3:37 PM GMT
With membership to the single market, goes stuff like free movement of labour, treatment of immigrants, the European court, the bill of human rights, financial contributions and aid etc.
Also conditions on trading with countries outside of the EU.

Soft Brexit probably means accepting all of those things. Which is what the remainers want. Meaning that we never left.

Hard Brexit means negotiating the use of the single market on a more favourable financial basis than currently applies to non EU members.
Report InsiderTrader November 4, 2016 3:39 PM GMT
ZenMaster,

Under your proposal do we still have to accept free movement of people?
Report Burton-Brewers November 4, 2016 3:43 PM GMT
yes it's non negotiable with access to the single market
Report tony57 November 4, 2016 3:51 PM GMT
crippen,
  there will be no strings..thats the point,she says this is what we are want..i dare you to say no, already ive worked about the goverment will have decent majority to trigger..lots of hot air in parliment..but no single market and out...or general election..either way we will be out ..but maybe 2 years later
Report dave1357 November 4, 2016 4:12 PM GMT
Hard Brexit means negotiating the use of the single market on a more favourable financial basis than currently applies to non EU members.

no it doesn't.  It means that we face tariffs and non tariff barriers on goods and severe restrictions in services.  We have to negotiate with the WTO to resume independent membership.

If there is an election all parties will back Art. 50 so the Conservatives will be forced to back soft brexit as the majority of their MPs won't back hard brexit.
Report ZenMaster November 4, 2016 4:14 PM GMT
Under your proposal do we still have to accept free movement of people?


Inside Trader

It's not my proposal but it's what will happen i believe.
Free movement will continue with the UK allowed to interfere with certain aspects such as benefits and criminal control.

I want a work visa system IT. It won't happen now. MP's will not allow A50 to be triggered if it means losing single market membership. Even the Tory Leaver MP's will want this option.
Report Dr Crippen November 4, 2016 4:23 PM GMT
no it doesn't.  It means that we face tariffs and non tariff barriers on goods and severe restrictions in services.

Well I thought I'd said that.
Report Dr Crippen November 4, 2016 4:25 PM GMT
MP's will not allow A50 to be triggered if it means losing single market membership.

Then what was the referendum about?
Report bigpoppapump November 4, 2016 4:27 PM GMT
Of the 51.8% who voted out:

How many want so-called hard Brexit (non members of single market)?
How many believed that a deal could be cut (as per the campaign)?
Report Dr Crippen November 4, 2016 4:28 PM GMT
Brexit means losing membership of the single market, and being treated like a non-member regarding access to it.
Unless we can negotiate a better deal than applies to other non EU countries.
Report Dr Crippen November 4, 2016 4:32 PM GMT
A clean break with tariffs is the way to go.

We'll get stuffed with the worst of both worlds if we're not carful.

That's access to the market with free movement and contributions, making the whole exercise of a referendum and what follows futile.
Report bigpoppapump November 4, 2016 4:34 PM GMT
given the likelihood that at least 4% of those voting Out wanted to continue enjoying the benefits of the Single Market then it seems worth pointing out that the biggest single (democratic) block of people in the UK on this issue is Remain with more than 48% of the vote.

The split in the Out Campaign between the economic moderates and the Out at any cost brigade deems the we won so out means out at any cost idea a little far-fetched.

let our elected representatives make sure we get a fair deal imo.  Parliament is Sovereign, after all.
Report ZenMaster November 4, 2016 4:37 PM GMT
Those Tory EU sceptics will be happy to stay on as members of the single market but regain a few sovereign rights that the EU has taken.
Report tony57 November 4, 2016 4:39 PM GMT
ffs..the whole argument was in or out? going back will not sort it out..people knew what was at stake we are not stupid..
is it not funny that the pm can bypass parliment and go to war...but carmt bypass parliment when the public voted for it ...
Report sageform November 4, 2016 4:40 PM GMT
I voted to give our Parliament the choice over whether we have more or less immigration and from which countries, what goods we import or export to/from which countries and above all to ensure that never again will be have to bow down to people like Hollande and Juncker. The terms of trade that other EU countries choose to offer are no more or less important to me than those offered by the US, Australia, China or anywhere else on the planet. Most of the other countries are in a total panic at the prospect of having to carry on without British defence capability, our strong economy and of course our ever increasing net contribution to the budget. Please give me a list of goods that we currently import from Europe that we couldn't get cheaper from somewhere else?
Report Dr Crippen November 4, 2016 4:43 PM GMT
tony,
The PM Blair did not bypass Parliament to go to war.

And Cameron was stopped from using forces in Syria by Parliament.
Report tony57 November 4, 2016 4:45 PM GMT
but the pm can if they wish...
Report bigpoppapump November 4, 2016 4:53 PM GMT
the Supreme Court was pretty clear - you cannot change the law without recourse to Parliament.

ffs - stop moaning/grow up/ accept it (c'mon guys, you all know those taunts)  Laugh

it's still going to happen - it's just not being done illegally.  This is a good thing, and if you don't like it, go and live in a country where they don't believe in democracy.  Laugh 

Oh how we laughed when they tried to change what they meant by British Sovereignty when they campaigned for British Sovereignty...

Laugh
Report tony57 November 4, 2016 4:56 PM GMT
not the supreme court?..it now goes to the supreme court?
Report Dr Crippen November 4, 2016 4:58 PM GMT
The government wouldn't bother with the delay of going to the top for a judgement if they weren't pretty sure of their ground.
Report InsiderTrader November 4, 2016 4:59 PM GMT
Will northern Labour MPs in areas that voted for Brexit vote for the continued free movement of people?

Will rural Conservative MPs in areas that voted for Brexit vote for the continued free movement of people?
Report Dr Crippen November 4, 2016 4:59 PM GMT
May says she expects the Supreme Court to overrule the High Court.
Report tony57 November 4, 2016 5:03 PM GMT
i t ,
ive told you, many labour mps will support the goverment whatever they put through..for reasons ive explained..imo..goverment will get it through by plenty..article 50 triggerd in summer next year..no single market etc...or general election, were labour mps will have to stand and face voters who already told them what to do..im sure they dont want that...may will call their bluff
Report Burton-Brewers November 4, 2016 5:14 PM GMT
I am coming to terms with it.

Zen that's what they want from you, to just browbeat you into submission.
Report tony57 November 4, 2016 5:31 PM GMT
if there is a a general election...and my mp says he will not vote for article 50 unless ...etc..i will vote for ukip..i take no pleasure in that,but thats my point my mp is not daft he will not try to block the goverment ...labour mps in leave constituances know they will be punnished..ukip will have mps..and brexit will happen anyway?..so think about it..majority of mps will support pm.
Report dave1357 November 4, 2016 5:35 PM GMT
tony57 your MP will not obstruct Art. 50 but I would hope that he would consider your views on the part of Art. 50 that covers the form of the future relationship.  In other words the election will be hard brexit vs soft brexit.
Report ZenMaster November 4, 2016 5:48 PM GMT
Zen that's what they want from you, to just browbeat you into submission.


No matter how hard you resist Burton, Parliament will have the last say on the in or out of the Single Market.
There is no loss of pride to realise this.
Report tony57 November 4, 2016 6:23 PM GMT
dave,
my mp was for remain, the day after the vote he posted on twitter ..the people have decided lets get on with it! since then corbyn and his cabal have betrayed the working class and british people by trying to put in amendments and we want this and that....we voted on all this..it was talked about..
the goverment will bring all eu law in british law...then next general election if aparty wishes to get rid of a law they put it in their manifesto? this is what the goverment are preposing? whats wrong with that?why the need to check or hold it up..they passed it to the people to decide ..they voted 6-1 for the ref? they dont like the result so try to hold it up..i dont want mps to check this or that..the people have told them what to do...get the **** on with it..
Report Dr Crippen November 4, 2016 6:46 PM GMT
Soft Brexit = waste of time voting, we'll still be entwined in the EU.

Hard Brexit = out of the EU lock stock and barrel.

Free to negotiate a new trade deal that doesn't give up any power to Brussels.
Report sageform November 4, 2016 6:46 PM GMT
I have no more confidence in the Supreme Court than in the first lot. The so called legal experts that the  Government employs don't seem to have a clue about the law and it is them that are supposed to be writing them!!! How many cases have the Government lost in the EU court and assorted other UK courts in the past 10 years? It is not a party political thing-they just employ poor quality advisors.
Report Dr Crippen November 4, 2016 6:49 PM GMT
In most cases court judgements are a matter of how the law is interpreted.

Or how biased the judge is.

There's little real justice in a court of law.
Report sageform November 4, 2016 7:02 PM GMT
That is true but is due to the way the law is written which allows different interpretations.
Report Burton-Brewers November 4, 2016 7:08 PM GMT
How many cases have the Government lost in the EU court and assorted other UK courts in the past 10 years?

actually sage UK governments have a very good record in the Supreme Court where this appeal is taking place.
Report mobo November 4, 2016 7:21 PM GMT
but just how many more demographic shifters are going to be let in while the delayers stir it up and leave the gates open
Report sageform November 4, 2016 8:03 PM GMT
Hope you are right Burton.
Report melv November 5, 2016 8:48 AM GMT
I will be gobsmacked if the supreme court overturns the decision. It seems a clear interpretation of the very nature of parliamentary Democracy. You know the system on which the country you lot on here claim to love is grounded. You know the system for which you voted Brexit in order to win its sovereignty back. I hereby promise to do a shhtt load of grovelling if it is overturned.

Some say the supreme court will be actually more forceful in its up holding of  parliamentary democracy.
Report Pleasegivemeanailedontip November 5, 2016 9:29 AM GMT
This 'you voted for parliamentary sovereignty and now you dont want parliamentary sovereignty' argument isnt really very accurate is it. We want to leave the EU to get parliamentary sovereignty and this particular parliament could block us from leaving the EU. Thats not having a double standard its just a coincidental irony. If we dont like how this particular parliament is handling our leaving of the EU then we can vote another soverign parliament in, no big deal.

How does any of this help the UK though? Still so many clamouring to 'follow the procedures' instead of looking at the best outcome for UK. Under what circumstance does a parliament vote improve the UKs position?
Report InsiderTrader November 5, 2016 9:41 AM GMT
On the BBC website now they now have an article about some MPs saying the press should not be reporting this in the way they are. So much for freedom of the press.

DC messed this up from the start (deliberately?) by saying it was up to those who wanted to leave to say what leave would look like. DC's policy was always going to cause chaos as those campaigning for leave would never be in a position to make policy.

Time and again during the campaign free movement of people was part of the debate. It was the key factor that the remaineers had no answer for. Now some people are trying to remove this because they want want to keep cheap labour for their businesses. It should have been clear on the ballot:

'to leave the EU and end free movement of people'

or

'to stay in the EU and keep free movement of people'
Report Rydal November 5, 2016 9:44 AM GMT
Why don't you Brexiteers get over it and move on. After all, if the Supreme Court doesn't overturn this, the government can always appeal to the European Court of Justice ;)
Report lfc1971 November 5, 2016 9:51 AM GMT
The courts do not make the Law. parliament makes the law. Where does parliament get the power to make law? From the people.

There is no law made by the English parliament that cannot be overturned by the people.
Report lfc1971 November 5, 2016 9:54 AM GMT
Other countries look at England and are amazed that we can govern ourselves subject only to our good judgement and upright character.
Report lfc1971 November 5, 2016 10:02 AM GMT
We allow judges to implement the law and to give some guidance on the law. If however they come to a decision that is always subject to parliament and the people.

Neither judges or parliament has the ultimate power, that lies with the Englush people.
Report lfc1971 November 5, 2016 10:04 AM GMT
We look at what is decided by the judges and parliament, and then tell them if we agree or not, to my mind that is a good arrangement.
Report lfc1971 November 5, 2016 10:08 AM GMT
remainers may have difficulty understanding this principle , it is how we have done things in England for hundreds of years.  Remainers, other countries, other nationalities look on at the English people and are amazed.
Report Room 0182 November 5, 2016 10:22 AM GMT
Rydal, as you well know, people are understandably deeply suspicious that this is a ruse (which it is of course) to get round the vote and leave us in the EU - many MPs and commentators make no secret of the fact.

Put simply, lying, venal, corrupt, greedy MPs on both sides can't be trusted.

It's also amusing to listen to the same people who've been cheerleading the loss if power to Brussels for the last 40 years, now suddenly discover a deep affection for parliamentary sovereignty.

Having said all that, once we're out, we can unpick the rest of it at our leisure.
Report lfc1971 November 5, 2016 10:35 AM GMT
On the question of free movement it is possible that most of those who voted leave do not want unlimited free movement of labour from anywhere in the world never mind the EU.
It is also possible that some of those who voted remain do not wish to see this automatic right of millions of people form other countries to come to Britain.

In fact this question is so fundamental to the sovereignty and freedom of Britain that if it doesn't stop then a referendum on this single issue would be necessary, it is even more important than the EU ref.
Report melv November 5, 2016 11:12 AM GMT
First I want to repeat that millions of peoples expectations are a very very seroius matter and they are being talken seriously. However...... Inside trader posted.



It should have been clear on the ballot:

'to leave the EU and end free movement of people'

or

'to stay in the EU and keep free movement of people'



Hip hip hurrah!!!!!!!!!!!!! The best thing I have seen posted in this debate.

So are all you Brexiteers still screaming "the vote was clear." When in the lead up to the vote lots of commentators where saying It was going to to be as clear as mud. Oh I forgot you only listened to the people who where conning you. Weren't you???


It should have been clear on the ballot:

'to leave the EU and end free movement of people'

or

'to stay in the EU and keep free movement of people'



Never mind "it should have been clear"....... It was not on the ballot at all. Or maybe, just maybe, you lot did not read the ballot at all. You just ticked were it said leave and decided that you were voting for what Farage told you that you were voting for.

For the umpteen time that vote give no mandate for any immigration policies. Further more soon the supreme court will inform and instruct you you that the vote was advisory and could never; as a referendum or plebiscite; could never have been anything other than advisory. I hope this helps. Or do you still not get it.

Cameron knew this. One of his relatives is the head honcho on plebiscites. This from the Daily Mail before the vote. Its Lord Astor David Cameron's father in law. "The EU referendum is purely advisory and has no legal standing to force an exit."......... Never mind realise your ant-immigrant dreams.
Report mobo November 5, 2016 11:13 AM GMT
Two foreigners were behind it - says it all for me - greed and self interest - the interest of the fat cats and the sideline of jobs for journos, mandarins, eu officers, etc etc - not forgetting more non union cheap imported labour for them to exploit - with the promise of more incomers voting for them and their own interest, to keep the stinking corrupt vessel afloat.

hope this helps
Report mobo November 5, 2016 11:15 AM GMT
Hold me up Melv and his ilk supporting the cause of fat cat groups and political interests who want non union low wage workers, it is hilarious.
Report melv November 5, 2016 11:23 AM GMT
Fight for a better world from within Europe. I know the eurocrats are basssstrds better to be inside the tent were we can take them on them on and form alliances against them than outside with no say what so ever.
Report InsiderTrader November 5, 2016 11:28 AM GMT
mobo
05 Nov 16 11:13
Joined: 08 Jan 05
| Topic/replies: 6,719 | Blogger: mobo's blog
Two foreigners were behind it

...

Someone is not a foreigner once they have British citizenship regardless of where they were born.

melv,

The freedom of movement was the cornerstone of the debate. To deny this now is extremely underhand. At the time I posted on here (and elsewhere) it should be on the ballot. We either have turn the west into 'one world' blended cultures with no national pride or we defend our borders and expect assimilation. Its a stark choice; either corporate world government or national government.
Report melv November 5, 2016 11:36 AM GMT
The freedom of movement was the cornerstone of the debate. To deny this now is extremely underhand.

In all my recent posts have said that millions of peoples expectations must be taken very seriously. Read my lips I respect the fact that millions of people were registering protest against immigration. This cannot and must not be ignored.

I would go further and say that this must be pressed in negotiations. Many Europeans feel the same way. It would be so ironic if reforms were made on free movement due to pressure from within Europe at the very moment that we leave the EU.

Note I said reforms; not end the movement of labour.
Report lfc1971 November 5, 2016 11:40 AM GMT
This issue is too important to leave to 27 other European countries to reform. We might have to wait forever ;) no we can reform now, if we wish and if we have the courage .
Report melv November 5, 2016 11:49 AM GMT
This issue is too important to leave to 27 other European countries to reform. We might have to wait forever ;) no we can reform now, if we wish and if we have the courage .

So join UKIP or some party campaigning for proportional representation and let the people vote. Make sure you are putting precisely what you want on the ballot mind.
Report InsiderTrader November 5, 2016 11:52 AM GMT
melv,
do u want open borders?
Report Dr Crippen November 5, 2016 11:55 AM GMT
Fight for a better world from within Europe.

Yet Europe is destroying itself from within through immigration, because their leaders embraced the idea of a better world.

It can't be done. They're simply subjecting their own people to the kinds of stuff they never thought possible.

Their leaders are wet behind the ears when it comes to the ways of people from other nations.

And that applies to many in the UK as well.
Report InsiderTrader November 5, 2016 12:02 PM GMT
Its a combination of the greedy self-interest of big business wanting cheap labour combined with the hoodwinked trendy metro liberals who call anyone racist that disagrees with them.

The same trendy liberals would not last five minutes dropped into Iraq or Saudi.
Report Dr Crippen November 5, 2016 12:05 PM GMT
The referendum ballot paper was clear enough, to simply leave the EU or remain in.

We tried to negotiate better terms with the EU, and they simply slammed the door in Cameron's face.

There was no half measure available, it was either in or out.
Report lfc1971 November 5, 2016 12:05 PM GMT
In a general election people vote on a wide range of issues, they will vote for a party and disagree with much of its policies. However we are talking here about the will of the British people, many labour people voted leave, many conservatives voted remain,
It is not a party issue, it is a national sovereignty issue and who has power over the British people. That can not be decided by parliament , or the government. of judges, or any power on earth, only ourselves.
Report mobo November 5, 2016 12:07 PM GMT
of course they are foreigners with foreign backgrounds and upbringing - one from a privileged elite political background
about as much in common with say a sunderland car worker etc etc yakkity yak
Report Dr Crippen November 5, 2016 12:09 PM GMT
There were no better terms available for trading with Europe when we had the referendum, any more than there are now.

What is there for Parliament to get involved in and discuss?
Report lfc1971 November 5, 2016 12:10 PM GMT
I would not be assured of the ability of someone from a foreign country to understand the subtle nature of the English mentality. England is different from other countries. That is why immigration is so dangerous.
Report lfc1971 November 5, 2016 12:12 PM GMT
Of course not everyone in parliament is English.
Report lfc1971 November 5, 2016 12:13 PM GMT
When you get people in a country, I should say any country, who are not English then you may have a very great and dangerous situation.
Report lfc1971 November 5, 2016 12:16 PM GMT
Do you doubt this? Look around the world.

Backwards .....backwards......backwards...
Report dave1357 November 5, 2016 12:38 PM GMT

Nov 5, 2016 -- 7:02AM, InsiderTrader wrote:


Its a combination of the greedy self-interest of big business wanting cheap labour combined with the hoodwinked trendy metro liberals who call anyone racist that disagrees with them. The same trendy liberals would not last five minutes dropped into Iraq or Saudi.


no they call out racists.  If you weren't a racist you wouldn't be called one. 

And completely lol at "The same trendy liberals would not last five minutes dropped into Iraq or Saudi."  I suppose you would fit in fine?

Report Dr Crippen November 5, 2016 12:46 PM GMT
If you weren't a racist you wouldn't be called one. 

Then you're a racist dave1357.

And by your own reckoning you must be, because I've just called you one.
Report InsiderTrader November 5, 2016 1:46 PM GMT
And completely lol at "The same trendy liberals would not last five minutes dropped into Iraq or Saudi."  I suppose you would fit in fine?

That is the point. I am not the one promoting open borders. I have no desire to go to those countries. But those people who want to open our borders and be tolerant of other cultures fail to admit those other cultures may not be tolerant of us.
Report tony57 November 5, 2016 5:51 PM GMT
stupid should of been on the ballot?
the ballot was right..leave or stay..leave as we were told by the pm and goverment meant leaving the single market...to say otherwise is just to deny the facts to suit your argument..
Report tony57 November 5, 2016 5:59 PM GMT
it is not the fault of the judges...but it should not of been brought to their attention..the goverment should of brought a act of parliment before the ref to say the result will be acted on.....
our countrys future as a democracy is at stake......
Report 1st time poster November 6, 2016 12:05 PM GMT
that dominic green was the attourney general i do believe ,if he now thinks the judges were 100% correct why did him and his cronies need a wide boy cockney plumbser to put up the money to get to the truth
if the remoaners dont think most brexiteers wanted immigration curbed although cameron and osbourne told us repeatedly  leaving the eu meant leaving the single markert, why have they spent everyday since the vote telling us hate crimes against foreigners have gone up,foreigners have been told to go home by brexiteers , you cant have your cake and it if your a remoaner
Report Burton-Brewers November 7, 2016 1:56 PM GMT
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