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paddletoe
14 Dec 14 15:04
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Date Joined: 24 Jul 07
| Topic/replies: 10,649 | Blogger: paddletoe's blog
I posted a few comments about the miners strike on another thread which may or may not have been relevant. Eternaloptimist invited me to start a new thread but I am only going to make the first post and others can pick it up if they wish. I don't mind coming second in any argument but on this one i am not qualified enough to make any great comments so I will leave it to others.

I will just say what I thought in 1983 when I had just started my old grammar school and it was the first real outside event in the world I had a interest in although coming from an area unaffected by the British Miners strike.

I remember then thinking you should never cross a picket line and take home a wage to your family when the men you worked with last week are not taking any home to their families. I thought the police and the law treated the miners like criminals when in no other situations in life would these same men have broken any laws. And finally as much as I disliked Thatcher I looked up to Scargill as a great man.

30 years on it would take a lot of convincing to make to believe any of them things I thought then were wrong.
Pause Switch to Standard View Reflections of the Miners strike
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Report treetop December 16, 2014 8:13 PM GMT
A good friend of mine was a sergeant in the police during the strike. He came from a mining village and knew many of the pickets,even contributed to their hardship funds during the early days. His approach changed radically as flying pickets began and they had to withstand people spitting and abusing young women who were going to work in the offices at one site and filling balloons with their urine and bombing the police and women entering the pit offices from behind their picket depth. From then he hated Scargill and all he stood for and he always said the police on the lines began to be heavily anti NUM. As I recall our local union branches changed from full support,in a mining area, to being quite ante the NUM around then as word of mouth and publicity became negative although the usual apologists after the event like to think that was all about the right wing media and Thatcher.
Report treetop December 16, 2014 8:22 PM GMT
Sean,you can also include the outright rejection of the NUM to hold an independent ballot on the strike turning many union and public supporters away from them during the course of the strike.
Report sean rua December 16, 2014 8:32 PM GMT
Point about discussing things is not to resort to personal attacks on debaters and also to try to offer something positive, even when we cannot agree about past events.

I use rough language to describe my enemy , ie the ruling class, but, I think folk will find that I rarely resort to personal jibes and attacks.

What often happens, when we get folk who aren't experienced in discussion and the logic required, is that folk sometimes feel threatened by generic terms and take it as ome sort of personal criticism of themselves.
All I can say is if a man feels that the cap fits, then, fair enough, wear it.

I stand up for my own. In this I am being every bit as selfish as my enemy - the capitalist rulers. Nothing to be proud of, but perfectly natural.
Others who have profited from the misery of the miners, like Scargill, Thatcher, and call the taxi or whatever her name is, naturally defend their actions too. I understand this.

One thing that folk do need to sharpen up on, is comprehension.

When I said months ago on here and decades ago elsewhere, that the lab party , the Bolsheviks, the maoists , and all the rest of them are NOT communist and NOTHING TO DO WITH COMMUNISM, I meant it. "Tis a simple statement; easy to understand. Why cannot folk get this?

The system we believe in can only come to be on a VOLUNTARY BASIS.  It cannot work in isolation or as a minority.

Clear your minds of all the sh ite you may have read in some comic or some book. Get with the REAL REVOLUTION.
If ye dare.
Most won't have the bottle, but, eventually, as capitalism shows time and time again that it cannot work for the benefit of all,  younger, open-minded folk will begin to cop on.
Then we can get started.

Till then, in order to survive in the current dog eat dog set-up, we have to catch as catch can. We have to compromise and bow to the Man - legally or illegally.

OK, that's about the height of it. Simple, really. No need for panic or bu ll shi t.
Like myself, an OAP, just get out there and do your thing. We have no choice, till the vast majority get wise and realise there is a better, less harmful, way. Happy

--

Nice to see that at least one poster above knew about what the cossers got up to. Cool .Most things to do with those lads is censored and covered up to fk.
That's why the comic readers don't seem to know the score.
This makes explanation slow and tedious work. All a bit like trying to teach a pig to carry a handbag.

Btw, when discussing the british coal industry, never forget Macgregor. See the way he was brought in as a henchman and the fkd away to the scrapheap when he was no longer of use.
All typical behaviour for capitalists.
Never heed or trust the bstrds! They're just users.
Report paddletoe December 16, 2014 8:46 PM GMT
Obviously the problems facing coal mining did not just start in 1979 when Thatcher became Prime Minisiter but nothing I have read on here has made me change my views of her. It looks though I am in a minority thinking Scargill was this great man. I am questioning that view though. It was my view of a young boy and maybe I was idealistic and uninformed. All I can say is at the time I saw Scargil as the man standing firm when Thatcher sent in the police to rough up the miners.

Nothing has changed on my views on those miners who broke the strike. I have hear people saying where was the fairness in the way they were treated. I simply think they should never have crossed picket lines even if they thought they were right. ot easy when you have no money but nobody was going to starve. Even in the area I lived we were giving money to towards the striking miners families.
Report Mexico December 16, 2014 8:56 PM GMT
Padd, you seem to be a pretty nasty person with a very large chip on your shoulder from 30 years ago.

Keep going on about an employees right to strike but want's to remove an employees right to turn up to the job they are employed to do.

The NUM got the fight they wanted, they lost , move on. It was 3 decades ago.
Report treetop December 16, 2014 9:03 PM GMT
Did you condone droppping a breeze block over the M4 and killing a taxi driver taking a miner to work during a strike that never had a ballot paddle ? I recall Neil Kinnock squirming during one interview and trying to defend that murder whilst having aspirations to being elected. That interview destroyed him and turned even more away from the NUM attitude. Scargill was and still is a **** who destroyed families as well as jobs in his quest for fame as he abused union loyalty,he is reviled within the NUM now.
Report paddletoe December 16, 2014 9:06 PM GMT
Agree with Sean Rua that the world has never seen true communism. At least on a large scale. There are examples of small scale communism throughout history but its a very difficult form of society when you try to scale it up.
Report paddletoe December 16, 2014 9:11 PM GMT
I don't think I have any chip on my shoulder at all. Are you seriously saying Mexico you should not be allowed to discuss any history events from 30 years ago. 20 years ago or 100 years ago? Maybe you just don't like my opinions which is fine by the way.
Report paddletoe December 16, 2014 9:16 PM GMT
Am I not allowed to have a personal opinion about workers crossing a picket line which makes no mention of them physically being stopped from doing so if you wish.
Report Eeternaloptimist December 16, 2014 9:28 PM GMT
You're right to question your view paddle. Don't stay wedded to heroes if they turn out to have feet of clay. The closest thing to a political hero I had as a young man was Kinnockio and look how he turned out. Scargill? Allow me to draw you into the light on that one:

....in December 2012, Scargill lost a similar case concerning rent on his flat in the Barbican, London. For years the NUM had been paying £34,000 annual rent for the flat on Scargill's instructions, without the knowledge of NUM members or many senior officials; Scargill claimed the NUM should continue funding his flat for the rest of his life, and thereafter for any widow who survived him. Chris Kitchen said: "I would say it's time to walk away, Mr Scargill. You've been found out. The NUM is not your personal bank account and never will be again."[15]

In 1993 Scargill tried to use Margaret Thatcher's flagship Right to Buy scheme to buy the flat on the Barbican estate. His application was refused because the flat in the Barbican Estate's Shakespeare Tower was not Scargill's primary residence. Former Scargill loyalist Jimmy Kelly, a miner at the Edlington Main pit near Doncaster in the 1980s, said he was astonished to learn of the attempt to buy the Barbican flat. "It's so hypocritical it's unreal," he said. "It was Thatcher's legislation, actually giving council tenants the right to buy their own houses. "I think if it had been made public before then there'd have been a huge outcry. I think people would be astounded by knowing that.[16]


Some may argue Scargill is a complex man. He espouses Stalinist views while acting like a grifter. In fact he isn't so complex because Stalin was also a man of low principle and had an inflated sense of his own importance. We saw with someone like Tony Blair that such a man will make soaring statements of grand principle just to advantage themselves personally and are so practised in the art that they often seem to convince themselves of their argument but the bottom line is they always do what is best for them. That is what they believe in. Themselves.
Report paddletoe December 16, 2014 9:37 PM GMT
Like I already mentioned EO I am more than beginning to wonder if I was right about Scargill. However, I don't think that's Mexico's problem with me. I think its more the fact that I have not changed my views of Mrs Thatcher!
Report Burton-Brewers December 16, 2014 9:39 PM GMT
Scargill could have won had he used his brain. He was a great orator though, I went to see him speak once when he started the Socialist Labour Party back in the 90's. A mate I worked with was a blacksmith at the NCB and he went to a rally at the local Labour club in 1984 when the strike was about 6 months old, and Arthur was speaking to Sth Derbys NUM. He said the speech was so fiery and passionate that had the leaders asked them to go and smash up the town they would have, that's how much they were under his spell. When he got home his mrs asked him what Arthur had said to rally the troops and he had to admit that he actually couldn't remember.
Report Eeternaloptimist December 16, 2014 9:44 PM GMT
There's no doubt he could speak Burton. Would be demagogues usually can. Hitler was a good speaker. Moseley was a good speaker as was Mussolini. I agree he could have won had he used his brain but like many people suffering delusions he thought he would carry the day with oratory and force of personality. What Gormley built by wit and muscle he lost through abandoning the wit.
Report Eeternaloptimist December 16, 2014 9:46 PM GMT
When I said months ago on here and decades ago elsewhere, that the lab party , the Bolsheviks, the maoists , and all the rest of them are NOT communist and NOTHING TO DO WITH COMMUNISM, I meant it. "Tis a simple statement; easy to understand. Why cannot folk get this?

The system we believe in can only come to be on a VOLUNTARY BASIS.


Sorry sean I don't mean to be cruel but aren't you a bit old for fairy stories? If what you propose came to pass a dictator would emerge to take it all away.
Report pawras December 16, 2014 9:48 PM GMT
SeanR – doesn’t matter how much you pitch it you ain’t gonna get it Happy

If you throw certain types of unpleasant completely subjective generic ‘terms’ out there (i.e. working class traitors) don’t expect people not to bite if they feel like it, even if it doesn’t apply to them, but just out of sheer disagreement of what you have to say and the mind set they feel generates such comments. Yeah I attacked you on that comment because it was your own purely subjective opinion.

You may feel you’re right in your stand point on various things but I equally feel you are wrong.
Report paddletoe December 16, 2014 9:49 PM GMT
Yes, Scargill was a great speaker and unlike people such as Derek Hatton who presented a different image in a suit Scargill looked like one of the workers right down to the baseball hat. Well, that's what I thought at the time.
Report Eeternaloptimist December 16, 2014 9:55 PM GMT
Of course he did. There's many ways to con people. One way is to appear flash and get people to give you what you want because you appear successful. Scargill with his Bobby Charlton hair cut and squashed badgers face could never have appeared flash. Another way to get people to do what you want is to appear like them and call on their sense of loyalty. Scargill rode that one like Lester Piggott.
Report paddletoe December 16, 2014 10:03 PM GMT
Like I said in my opening post I know little about the history and politics or economics behind the coal dispute but I liked Scargil so much because of the way he spoke and he had the look of a person who I thought was definitely not getting rich on the backs of anyone. And when he was there on the front line to get clipped by one of Maggies boys in riot gear I liked him even more.
Report Burton-Brewers December 16, 2014 10:11 PM GMT
Arthur's hatred of Thatcher was greater than the love for his members, and this caused him to miss many things that were happening right under his nose.
Report Eeternaloptimist December 16, 2014 10:14 PM GMT
Burton alludes to the problem. Gormley got a 70% rise for the miners in two years because he was prepared to bring them out but was also prepared to take yes for an answer. Scargill wanted a war to win his place in history. He got it and his place in history.
Report paddletoe December 16, 2014 10:16 PM GMT
You have a very good way with words EO and your quite smart too.
Report treetop December 16, 2014 11:05 PM GMT
Gormley even postponed his retirement in an attempt to forestall Scargill's ascendancy as I recall. The man knew the Barnsley idiot would harm the NUM.
Report pawras December 16, 2014 11:15 PM GMT
The bottom line is Scargill and Unions lost which you either feel is a good or bad result for the time.

Me I see it as a good thing but it's never the twain shall meet with those who see it as the reverse.

Those who would have liked a different outcome can whine and rant all they want but they can't change the result (thankfully).
Report Eeternaloptimist December 16, 2014 11:19 PM GMT
paddletoe

Or alternatively another interpretation would be that if there is one thing which a fool should be able to spot it is a bigger fool. Laugh
Report Eeternaloptimist December 16, 2014 11:42 PM GMT
I may be paraphrasing but Churchill when asked how history would treat him said, favourably because he intended to write it. Such is the victors right. All this dewy eyed shinolla for the miners might generate debate but it is a part of history long gone and thank goodness for that. Anybody who thinks we would have been better off if Scargill had prevailed isn't playing with a full deck.
Report sean rua December 17, 2014 9:29 PM GMT
Paddletoe,

I guess you are long term on this forum, but I cannot see why ye are getting criticised so. Though I'm sure ye kick the ball with the other foot, I can honestly say that I regard yourself as one of the saner, more reasonable posters here.
Though we undoubtedly have our differences, i rspect ye for the respectful way ye go about your business.

In some ways, I can see why the crackpot , pugh the extreme, flipped. 'Tis the same old stuff being peddled by a small pressure group who somehow hope to oust the A Team of capitalism, namely the conservative and unionist party.

These peddlers trot out the same old stuff about impossibility, forget about history ( despite recently doing their bollocks about the poppies and wars that happened a hundred years ago). Same old principle-less conventional, stock answers, based on anti-working class dogma.
I can only think that it must be something to do with not being true blue kosher public schoolboy real ruler material and developing some sort of inferiority complex about it.


Anyway, back to coal.
Scargill didn't lose any more than Thatcher did. Two cnts who both profited nicely while the miners got smashed. Even the strike breakers found that the old adage " he who works and does his best, goes down the road with the fkn rest" came true - despite all the promises they were given.
So let's add in another cnt - that deluded guy who led the dum.

I'm trying to help other workers here, so yet again, I must re-iterate " never trust the ruling class".
Neither be discouraged by the pessimism of those who a) lack vision b) have a vested interest in maintaining the status quo.
a
1001 products can be made from coal. it is too valuable a natural resource to be squandered by private interests. What Thatcher and her rulers managed was to make sure that, when the time comes, a few private individuals will have some very neat legal paperwork drawn up to show that they now own a hugely valuable resource that will be vital to GB.
Echoes of the soviet union and all those Russian oligarchs it spawned. Betray the working class but get all the legal rights cheaply so that the phoenix can rise from the ashes.
Same old, same old.
They used to call it "asset stripping".
Report paddletoe December 17, 2014 10:48 PM GMT
Thanks for the nice words Sean. Not sure what you mean by kicking the ball with the other foot. I actually could kick points over the bar with my good foot and my wrong foot.
Report sean rua December 18, 2014 6:19 AM GMT
Old term used in the North, paddletoe.
Perhaps, wrongly, I assumed ye were from the six.

No offence intended. The point was to show how folk with opposing views can discuss things sensibly. I find I have to do this often, especially when I'm at the races in Cheltenham, Ludlow, or Goodwood.
Report pawras December 18, 2014 8:51 AM GMT
SeanR - You know I (and like or not too many others for it to ever happen in reality) utterly reject your desire for a form of pure communism and I certainly don’t view the world through class orientated glasses. But given your outpourings re class war, revolution, top hats and flat caps know your place, I wonder, if you accept you’re not going to get your communist thing, do you see it as somehow wrong if someone moves from the bottom quartile to the upper quartile or further still even?

However even though I’m glad the unions lost, interestingly one area our views probably intersect is that I’m against foreign individuals or companies owning any sort of controlling share in UK infrastructure or resources and that they should owned and used ultimately for the benefit of the UK people.But I don’t favour nationalisation because that just leads to ineptly managed loss making publically owned monoliths because there isn't enough accountability.

But it’s a long life so I intend to make my way in the world as best I can and not pine too over how I’d like things to be as I accept nothing we say here on this anonymous free for all talking shop is going to change anything and regardless of what anyone thinks no one’s posts hold any more gravitas than the next.
Report Eeternaloptimist December 18, 2014 10:30 AM GMT
I agree paddle. The thing we really should be talking about is the collapse in social mobility. I don't mind having a top and a bottom as long as the game is fairer. This country mirrors our football these days.
Report Eeternaloptimist December 18, 2014 10:32 AM GMT
Sorry pawras.
Report pawras December 18, 2014 12:02 PM GMT
Sorry why?
I’m fully in favour of social mobility, if not for that I’d still be stuck in broke ar&e end of no where place that I’m from. I’m vehemently against anyone trying to suppress it in any way shape or form,be it from the left or right to suit their political outlook. If someone has the brains and/or drive to get ahead doig whatever then they are to be applauded in my eyes.
But at the same time if you drag yourself up those who can’t bothered shouldn’t seek to attach themselves like lead weights.

If there’s been a collapse in social mobility then why is that?
Report Eeternaloptimist December 18, 2014 12:36 PM GMT
I was saying sorry because I thought your post was written by paddle and I was correcting my mistake. As for why social mobility has collapsed nobody can say for sure but the fact that the 50's and 60's were the golden age of the Grammar Schools is I feel very relevant. It wasn't just that academic working class kids did well with an academic education and then moved up the ladder. It was also sometimes a beacon to those who didn't do as well. They still saw what was possible and many of those also succeeded. Now many comprehensives have little but a litany of failure to fall back on when it comes to social mobility.
Report pawras December 18, 2014 12:36 PM GMT
For one thing living on state handouts doesn't have the same stigma it did 30-40 years ago
Report pawras December 19, 2014 11:28 AM GMT
The comp I went to was an ex grammar school and the core subjects were fairly ruthlessly streamed but operated in the manner of football leagues i.e. after exams the top two went up and the bottom two went down. That way you weren’t permanently pigeon holed at a low level or if you slacked you got demoted.
Report paddletoe December 19, 2014 11:53 AM GMT
I used to be like you comrade Sean and believe in communism. Communism is a lovely idea and it can work and does work but only on a small scale. Communism depends on human nature as some people would like it to be but unfortunately capitalism takes advantage of human nature as it really is.
Report pawras December 19, 2014 12:13 PM GMT
I applaud Sean’s relentless idealism even if I don’t agree with what he espouses.
Rather than focussing so much on mission impossible, I’d take a more pragmatic approach and aim for some ‘change for the better’ that’s actually realistically achievable.

Yeah there’s no good being the richest bstrd in the cemetery, that’s why you make sure it all goes to your nearest and dearest and not the useless sh&te down the street via inheritance tax.
Report paddletoe December 19, 2014 12:36 PM GMT
I can see how the wealthy and powerful people in other countries would be opposed to communism in Russia right from the start when no one really knew how it would work  out. This opposition was not an ideological different view of things. It was based on self interest and not wishing communism to catch on. But I don't understand why working class people in other countries were just as opposed to communism. For them this opposition was not based on self interest. It was ironically based on ideology. Maybe the reason was in countries like Germany and America at the time lots of people just did not like the idea of everyone being treated equally and they think as they do now some people and races are better than others!
Report pawras December 19, 2014 12:54 PM GMT
I think it was a certain amount of self interest for working class people in other countries, well those that felt they had a chance to ‘get ahead’.

Not everyone is equal I’m afraid, I don’t mean in terms of race, I mean some are basically smarter, more capable and harder working than others and therefore have no desire for their efforts to greatly benefit others.
Report sean rua December 20, 2014 4:16 PM GMT
My posts here are vanishing or never appear.

Just thought I'd let ye know.

Happy Christmas All!

--

Just a few more points:

"Equality" has fk all to do with Communism.
It was one of the cries of the Bourgoisie in France.

In Communism, each wil receive according to his NEED.

For example,say, a heart -transplant is needed by somebody, it don't mean every fkr has to have one - just those who need it, regardless of everything else.
OK, some will be useless cnts and some will be brilliant successes like the regulars on this forum, but that will not be a criterion.

NEED will be the sole criterion.







;
Report sean rua December 20, 2014 4:17 PM GMT
for receiving.
Report paddletoe December 20, 2014 4:59 PM GMT
You can't always get what you want

You can't always get what you want

You can't always get what you want



But if you try sometimes well you just might find
You get what you need
Report Mexico December 21, 2014 9:59 AM GMT
Sean, no wonder this country wants nothing to do with your mad communism state.

How much will this heart surgeon earn in your silly example. I assume this heart surgeon with 1 child would earn less money than an unskilled cleaner with 4 children? because they "need" less money?


How would mad sean prevent this skilled heart surgeon earning £30k leave to work in a different country for £400k?
Maybe we don't need skilled heart surgeons to perform heart transplants in mad seans world?


Back to this tread...
We did not need or want overpriced British coal the nasty left wanted the tax payer to pay over the odds to use a dangerous British fuel. The nasty left won't respect the rights of an employee to attend work during an unballoted strike.

Thatcher saved many British lives by changing the fuel we used. Scargil did not care about killing British people as long as the taxpayer filled up his begging bowl.
Report sean rua December 21, 2014 4:55 PM GMT
This s hard work. Happy

Mex,

There will be NO STATE  and NO MONEY, when true communism comes. Obviously, 'twill depend on folk being able to comprehend things quickly and efficiently, as, say, in the military forces nowadays.
'Tis a sad reflection on modern society, that though I've made the same, simple, points over and over, some cannot understand or remember.

I repeat, the new, better system will only come when enough folk want it. Naturally, understanding is the sfirst step, and judging by this forum, we have a lot of work to do before folk can even grasp simple points.

Nil desperandum.

We can do it.

In the meantime - which would appear to be of some duration - please note that none of the reformist paries can or will make not one iota of difference, for
'tis the system that is wrong, not the type of puppets who pretend to be controlling it.

I, therefore, urge ye all not to waste your lives with futile pressure groups that purport to be able to do the impossible.

--

Re coal:
There was pollution in the old days, just like there IS pollution nowadays from dwindling oil and gas.

The future, when freed from the false constraints of capitalism, lies with other sources of energy.
These will include NUCLEAR FUSION, COAL, solar, wind, and geo thermal heat exchange.

Please note that the likes of D Cameron, N, Farage, B. Johnstone, will NOT be in power when we carry out the essential modernisation.
I didn't mention the clowns from the lib labs, bc they have no chance of doing anything, bar making cnts of themselves.

We will need the brainy folk from the public school system, but our way cannot be until we have the surgeons, rocket scientists, and others on side.

Remember:

"FROM EACH accordng to his ABILITY"

Basicaly, that means everybody doing his best. Something that can never happen under capitalism.

--
re M Thatcher:

even according to your colleagues' figures, coal didn't just go out the wndow the day thatcher ran off crying after being stabbed in the back by others in the conservative and unionist party ( who had used her to do ther dirty work, ie smash the miners).
Even, all these years later, coal is still a very important prime mover in UK energy production.
And this, while still miss-used by current methods.
Report sean rua December 21, 2014 4:56 PM GMT
reformist parties.
Report pawras December 21, 2014 5:24 PM GMT
I get what you want but as I always say you'll never get it because there'll always be a lot of people like me who reject it completely.
Report call me a taxi December 21, 2014 7:11 PM GMT
sean rua   
20 Dec 14 16:16 
My posts here are vanishing or never appear.

Just thought I'd let ye know.


You must be winning a debate against somebody who doesn't like losing.

He has reported you, and now the moderators are vetting all your posts.
Report pawras December 21, 2014 8:37 PM GMT
reporting is for p&ssies
Report Burton-Brewers December 21, 2014 8:41 PM GMT
it's not reporting it's grassing, we know a song about grassing don't we Excrement X?
Report pawras December 21, 2014 8:52 PM GMT
if you can't take what someone might potential say on an anon forum you really shouldn't be on it.
Report treetop December 21, 2014 8:54 PM GMT
Remember:

"FROM EACH accordng to his ABILITY"

Basicaly, that means everybody doing his best. Something that can never happen under capitalism

If you believe that this would happen under communism without rigid enforcement and all the resentment that would produce I really do believe you are naive sean. The sentiment is laudable but the tyrants always follow with that aspect of communism. Merry xmas all
Report pawras December 21, 2014 9:14 PM GMT
I agree his ideals are laudable but it would have to be a dictatorship to get everyone to abide by the rules or not break off to form their community based around all the normal human traits.
Report call me a taxi December 21, 2014 10:09 PM GMT
pawras    21 Dec 14 20:52 
if you can't take what someone might potential say on an anon forum you really shouldn't be on it.


I disagree.

Having a pop at another poster is all part of the game, but there are halfwits on here who are not content with that, so they have a go at posters family member as well.

And that's not on imo.

It's cowardly in the EXTREME.
Report pawras December 21, 2014 10:19 PM GMT
Yeah I see your point, have a pop at the individual all you want but don't start on about their family

4th made comment about my mother running of with pak1 man, but I chose to ignore rather than react cos that sort thing I can't see him daring to say in person, he then eventually ran away from the argument when I did a recap on the points raised re the grooming. He now seem to have ran away from the another one when I've nailed him on a agree/disagree re referendum on major legislation not in a manifesto
Report call me a taxi December 21, 2014 10:40 PM GMT
but I chose to ignore rather than react cos that sort thing I can't see him daring to say in person

The anonymity makes cowards like them all the same - vociferous on here, but gutless in the real world.
Report sean rua December 23, 2014 1:21 PM GMT
Not au fait with the part of the thread about reporting, censoring, anonimity, or personal remarks, but

re possibility and naivety

all I can say is

"Never say Never".

Things can change and they'll have to.
Folk can agree and can co-operate. It may be difficult but it can happen. Familiers, tribes, clubs do, it all the time. Perfection doesn't exist, but in principles we're chatting about abstracts, and in abstracts the best is the best.

Just like in darts, aims are important.
If we just say, fk it, and throw our darts on the mat or into the tyre, then we'll get nowhere and might as well call it off altogether.

The major stumbling block for communism will be the ever-present existence of psychopaths. I can see no pleasant way of dealing with trouble-makers, but, undoubtedly, they will have to be restrained somehow for the protection of all.

Dictators and bullies wll be less of a problem, imo, as their motivation will have been remove, by and large.
I diverge from Marx, in that I accept the family and tribe, whereas he didn't.

As I see it, the two strongest drives in mammals are sex and hunger.
We should be able to eliminate the latter ( provided we work), but sex, and the power of jealousy, may well be a problem. Passion is hard to control.

On the economic front, however, we can do a lot.

Humans will still be humans, and there will always be challenges to deal with.
Report sean rua December 23, 2014 1:22 PM GMT
will have been removed.
Report pawras December 23, 2014 3:10 PM GMT
You'll always have a healthy % that don't wish go be part of your 'hive' so you'll either have to hold them prisoner or let them go off & for their own community according to the principles they believe in.
Report Eeternaloptimist December 23, 2014 3:58 PM GMT
And then they will out trade you and people will begin defecting and you'll eventually have to build a wall to keep them in.
Report pawras December 23, 2014 4:00 PM GMT
Resisted is futile, you will be assimilated. ...
Report Alias December 23, 2014 9:34 PM GMT
Soe would doubtless agree with you sean but the point is that Thatcher's government was relected prior to the miners strike and had a democratic mandate to address union militancy and once Scargill declared war it was like The Falklands a war she simply had to win.

Re-elected thanks to the lying, obfuscating, misinformation peddling "free" British press, the same mob that lied and lied in the same way in the Scottish referendum at the behest of, and alongside of, their political masters.

"a war she simply had to win" - in the strike it was won with the help of the police (read Ricky Tomlinson). I worked among mining communities then, and some of the stories were unbelievable. As for the Falklands, let's not forget the help from that "true friend of Britain" Pinochet. You know, the murdering fascist military dictator who, Franco style and with CIA help, usurped a democratically elected government and proceeded to brutalise his people. What happened to freedom and justice then? What of the USA and UK with their constant references to democracy? Or was democracy only relevant when it suited them?

Common denominator - Thatcher, evil incarnate. The world is well rid.
Report treetop December 23, 2014 11:06 PM GMT
Once Scargill declared war the elected government had to win,end of.
Report Eeternaloptimist December 23, 2014 11:14 PM GMT
You have an interesting and may I say rather patronising way of looking at things Alias. It seems that you are saying that you of course were intelligent and enlightened enough to discount all that propaganda but the poor benighted stupid masses were led by the nose. Like I said that is a very patronising and offensive dismissal of people. I voted for independence along with over a million others. Were those who didn't voe our way conned? No. They looked at the issues and decided something different to us.
Report pawras December 23, 2014 11:16 PM GMT
Exactly.
Who runs the country , the unions or the elected government?
Report Eeternaloptimist December 23, 2014 11:28 PM GMT
The same applies to Thatcher. The bottom line is that more people were won over by her message than were won over by Foot or Kinnock's visions.
Report pawras December 24, 2014 6:28 AM GMT
The left can never accept that
Report sean rua December 24, 2014 11:33 AM GMT
Still a fair bit of misunderstanding above. But, at least we are thinking a bit, and not just reading from the pressure group's pamphlet.

There will be NO MONEY under our system, thus no such thing as trade.

As pointed out, psychopaths and mentally defectives are ever present in human society. This is true now under capitalism and can occur ANYWHERE,  eg from lovely Norway to blackest Africa, to the good old USA, to Dunblane in bonny Scotland, to the huge shipholes of industrial Britain or Germany.

So our problem will not be new, and, as we shall have brought in an agreed new system ( majority agreement which is hardly ever the case under current system), we shall have to deal with the pesky minority.

One major difference will be that we shall be in almost the reverse position of now. Now we have the pesky, psychpothic MINORITY  bossing and ruling the majority, who, in their frustration at getting such a raw deal turn to almost anything for relief,
be it it page 3 of mur do 's comic, coronation street - England's favourite tv show of all time, or pressure groups like u ki p, etc.

The point about who runs the countey or , indeed, the world, is that it, certainly IS NOT  any elected government or chief politician.
Capitalism is run by the capitalists for their own good.

Thus, D. Thatcher was the man behind the sily miner's strike of the 80s. He was the millionaire who pulled the strings on his puppet wife.
He was the man who realise old Benn was good for the con and unionist party. He fought to get benn to stand at Chesterfield. He knew that benn wwas an aristocratic tory who had hated wilson. He knew he was a buffoon who would always guarantee a labour defeat and con and unionist victory.

This is the vital information that is generally kept from the masses. It is fact that THEY don't want us to know.

Besides this, the other main reason folk go against their class and support our masters against our own is

a) an inferiority complex born of being lowly born
b) the determination to overcome this by becoming materially successful ( |I'll show 'em!).

c) this vanity craves social recognition, so huge bribes are often offered to the real rulers in an attempt to gain acceptance.

In my limited but long experience, I'd suggest that none of these policies really work. Old money and class can always spot the nouveau rich, jumped up boys. Yes, they let you get so far, as this is useful to them, but, ultimately, they apply the brake.

Anyway, make the best of it; get as much as ye can off the bstrds, and have a very happy Christmas, everybody!

'Tis only a winter's tale. Roll on summer!
Report Eeternaloptimist December 24, 2014 1:24 PM GMT
Assuming you got a majority to walk with you into the wilderness sean how exactly would you "deal with" those who didn't want to end up rubbing sticks together to keep warm?
Report pawras December 24, 2014 6:18 PM GMT
Sean – You’re still riven with the whole class thing and see/judge things through those eyes, but that’s your bag fair enough, perhaps it’s partially an age thing I dunno. But try not to cast such general aspersions on those who don’t see things that way.

Anyway I can accept you want what you consider to be a utopia and maybe a good % of others would fancy it as well and I wouldn’t be upset if you all went off and formed your own community.

BUT what you NEVER answer is whether you can accept a good % will NEVER accept your system and will always reject it???
Come there’s no point forever touting your ‘system’ if you won’t answer that question.

Say in a theory the world was split 50/50 and if those who rejected your system said right you lot go off and do your thing but leave us to live how our lives how we want, can you accept that????????????????????

Further touting of your ‘system’ is not an answer.
Report pawras December 24, 2014 6:27 PM GMT
Plus I’m not interested in arguing the toss about why people won’t accept your system, they’re entitled to reject it simple as that due to human free will and all that, so I just want a straight forward answer.
Report Celtic warrior December 25, 2014 9:28 PM GMT
paddletoe,

the miners strike shaped my political life. I have never forgiven thatcher for what she did to our country. pure pure evil. she turned on her own people for political gain.
Report pawras December 26, 2014 10:22 AM GMT
I feel the same about Blair/Brown but over different issues
Report sean rua December 27, 2014 10:09 AM GMT
Happy Christmas ALL!

pAWRAS,

Our system will come to be; there is no positive alternative.
I honestly believe that we shall, ultimately, get the required working majority we need.

Folk do see sense, eventually, but, as I've pointed out as much as any, within humans there is always at least one rogue cnt who is damaged so much that he'd as soon act like a fkn suicide bo mber bstrd as behave properly.

You may remember I labelled cnts like that under the heading PSYCHOPATHS. Often when I discuss this with thick, silly, fkrs, they think I'm on about cycle-paths or some such, but this is the standard of the electorate that we have to deal with.

All human society has had to deal with nutters, BUT, the main advantage our system will have is there will be very little MOTIVATION for ASBO types to do their nonsense.
I've probably met and mixed with more criminal types than ye have even heard of, but, my confidence in our system and my underlying faith in humanity remains unshaken.

I re-iterate:
One of the main problem areas will probably be the question of sex. The sex drive, as explained previously ( and this information came from a well-qualified vet, so is good enough for myself) is very powerful and many of the daft things that folk do stem from this.

Yes, there will be conflict and contest , but, it is to be hoped that the sports field, track, or ring will be the place to sort this.
The means of Production should NOT BE AFFECTED. We don't need cnts like that to ss er in N Korea. There is no need for that or any of the other dictatorships we see around the globe.

Daft bstrds can battle it out in the proper place.

No society -including today's - can ask for more than this.

If we have enough qualified medical folk who are willing to patch the silly fkrs up, then they will be cared for and treated. If not, they will just have to die in agony, or, if I'm still about ( unlikely), I'll personally deliver the coup de grace and take 'em out - just like stricken horses.
I won't divulge my methods, for that could lead to the wrong people becoming almost as wise as me! Happy

We shall triumph, have no fear!

Some folk may flinch and baulk, but, that's because they haven't realised yet that modern society depends on folk killing and being killed.
This lesson should be taught in the schools, as there's a lot of learning to be done.
We can only do our wee bit.

---

re M. Thatcher:
this heinous person was no more than a puppet of, among others, the millonaire husband with shares in oil, gas, and nuclear.
They're gone now, so move on, as there are plenty more as bad as them who have taken their place.

The sad thing is to see the working class divided against itself and acting like a snake eating its own tail. The bosses love nothing more than this, of course.
Our weakness gives them the strength to carry on owning us.
Report pawras December 27, 2014 10:53 AM GMT
Sean –  You waffled your usual revolution and class war stuff and totally side stepped the question!
Come on man that’s weak!

Don’t waffle on about majorities because even if it’s 90% the other 10% have the right to go off and live how they want.

SO Let me reiterate, it boils down to would you allow the % who don’t and never will want to be part of your system to go and live under their own system or do you see yourself as having the right to impose your system upon them??????

NO WAFFLE required all I want is YES you have the right to impose it on the % who don't want it or NO you don't, which is it?

I'm mind reading you touting your system but I think that's a fundamental question you really should answer.
Report pawras December 27, 2014 10:55 AM GMT
I meant , I'm don't mind reading you touting your system but I think that's a fundamental question you really should answer.
Report sean rua December 29, 2014 9:37 AM GMT
Good morning, pawras; hope you are enjoying the Christmas season.

No waffle at all; I've over - explained several times that, as in ANY SYSTEM or ANY SOCIETY, there will always likely be the problem of PSYCHOPATHS.

This small, troublesome, ASBO -type, minority will have to be curtailed for THE GOOD OF SOCIETY IN GENERAL.
'Tis just the same nowadays under your out-moded system.

We shall have to use the best available methods at our disposal.
As I told ye, IF I'm still around ( unlikely, as our project is long-term), I shall have to take these trouble-makers out, ie. kill the poor bstrds.

Nothing new about that, is there? What would ye do if some cnt was coming after your kids with a fkn cutlass?

--

Btw,
My English is poor but easily understood; your last two paragraphs seem to indicate that ye were overdoing the old larrup.Grin
I tried to make sense of each version, but didn't manage it.

Yes, society will have the right to deal with poor folk who are dangerously de-ranged. The main dfference will be, that our society will be well-founded on healthy principles, unlike now, where we have psychopathic rulers all across the world making things hard for the majority.
In other words, the dog wll be wagging the tail instead of having the **** sh itting down our gullet. That's the cleanest, better-by-design way to do things. Think of the overall good, while we're at the drawing-board stage.
Report pawras December 29, 2014 3:24 PM GMT
FFS sean all I asked for is :-

Yes you have the right to impose it on the % who don’t want your system
Or
No you don’t

You are sidestepping by seemingly suggesting that those who don’t accept your system will lumped in the same group as psychopaths and classed as deranged and ergo have no right to self determination.

FKN WEAK!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

BUT by your waffle what you are saying in your mind it is a YES, you can impose on it on the % who don’t want your system.

So basically even if they’re a sizeable minority of say 25% you’d impose your system upon them because in your eyes they must be ‘deranged’. HHmmm nice a dictatorship !!!

Plus you never directly answered :-
Say in a theory the world was split 50/50 and if those who rejected your system said right you lot go off and do your thing but leave us to live how our lives how we want, can you accept that????????????????????
Report Mexico December 29, 2014 4:36 PM GMT
Sean, you are correct there is nothing new about mass murder/ genocide. I assume anybody with a high paid job would be offered the choice to become a low paid slave or become dead.

How would you stop the millions of useful people leaving your hellhole?
Report pawras December 29, 2014 5:15 PM GMT
He wants to impose his 'system' globablly on EVERYONE regardless of whether they want to be part of it or not & regardless of what % of the population they represent.

I.e. HIS uptopia ia a dictatorship of what he sees as pure communism.
Report sean rua December 30, 2014 11:28 AM GMT
Once again, stick to the facts , lads, and do'nt be acting the goat by pretending to be extremely obtuse: your less than public school ( ruling class) education wasn't that bad thay ye cannot follow the basics.

Well, perhaps, in Mexico's case, there is little hope: I told her that there will be NO MONEY under the new system ( not that new in the abstract, actually, but, still she
chats about "LOW-PAID" jOBS.
A classic case of inability to read and comprehend properly, perhaps?

Pawras, on the other hand, has some intelligence, but is blinded by his insistence on pushing forward his fear of being steam-rollered by some sort of power that he disagrees with.
Fear not, my friend: our way will be based on trying to do the best for humanity and the world.

Yes, as has been pointed out over and over,probably, we can never totally eradicate insanity, obstinance, and anti-social behaviour, entirely.

Just as in any system, we cannot compromise the good of all, just because some fkn jerk decides to smash our community centre or bomb our planes or buses, or fracture essential pipelines etc.

Cnts like that will be, imo, less likely to exist in a system based on overwhelming agreement of good principles. The incentive to be a t wat will largely be gone, along with the army of apologists, "social workers". solicitors, rossers, and all the rest who are currently non-productive but well-paid bc of all the social and economic problems.

We can feed ourselves without fking off to some comet in outer space: all it needs is, firstly,the will, and then, decent, right-minded ORGANISATION. Humanity is quite capable of producing abundance.
If we don't, then we fk up and die. The choice will be ours.

Any nutter who tries to break down the food supply will, of course, have to be prevented. Ye may disagree, but, imo, 'twould have been better to somehow stop, say, those Boston bomber cnts, sooner rather than later.
I have my theories and so has every security outfit on the planet.

--

Ye chat glibly about dictatorship. Perhaps ye do not realise that we are all dictated to by certain things that the majority accept?
Maybe tomorrow ye wake up after a heavy night on the acid or whatever and decide ( in GB) that, fk it, you're gonna drive on the right hand side of the road. Fk everybody else, freedom of the indvidual and all that, ye go for it.
How far do ye think ye'll get like that?
Sure, somebody would have to put some lead into ye or stop ye some way better.

Nobody tolerates cnts fking things up for the majority  - EXCEPT under capitalism, where it is the done thing to cash in on the misery of others.

We can get things round the right way. It all starts in the hearts and minds.

Silly little pressure groups will achieve fk all: they're trying to shine sh it. Polish all ye like, it won't work.
Get with the way forward!Happy
Report Eeternaloptimist December 30, 2014 1:25 PM GMT
I don't see any lack of clarity in sean's suggestion. He's quite explicit. Once he has his majority who do fall for his claptrap then anybody from that point on who doesn't knuckle under he will class as a psychopath and do em in. Classic tactic which has been played out in all communist regimes. Think for yourself Want to build something for your family through your own efforts and you will be classed as an undesirable. A troublemaker. And we know what happens to those.

All very clear and horrifying. Good job he's a lone voice and will remain so.
Report pawras December 30, 2014 5:37 PM GMT
EO I’ve known all along he's saying that but I just want a no room to manoeuvre YES or NO.
I don’t think he’s even after a majority, just a big enough % to impose it on the rest.


AGAIN FFS sean all I want is a YES or NO, do you have the strength of conviction to give that or do you evade it because you know in your heart of hearts you’ll never get anything remotely near a consensus?

SO SEAN :-

Yes you have the right to impose it on the % who don’t want your system
Or
No you don’t

I know you’re saying YES but you insist on wrapping it up in a load of waffle and pointless examples about stopping terrorists.

YES or NO ??????????????????????????????????

I’m going to nail you every time you come here until you can be honest enough to give a YES or NO.
Report pawras December 30, 2014 5:52 PM GMT
Funny how fanatics, be they political or religious have a complete inability to accept that not everyone sees or ever will see their point of view. But then it goes with the job.
Report Eeternaloptimist December 30, 2014 6:45 PM GMT
Surely he's given a clear and unequivocal yes. Of course he could be on the wind up.
Report Mexico December 30, 2014 7:03 PM GMT
He has not explained the method of genocide.
Mad Sean land is supposed to be global so he may need to murder over 3 billion people.

Will he use gas chambers, starvation, nuclear explosions, machine guns. Or will individuals get an individual show trail in front of an unpaid judge then get an individual execution?



All very sad,  Sean is yet another example of how Thatcher's " care in the community " policy has gone wrong.
Report pawras December 30, 2014 8:10 PM GMT
I think he's possibly deluded enough to think he won't have to ‘deal’ with too many psychopaths/obstinate people who don’t want to sign up to his ‘system’

No matter how much I disagree with an ideology compared to mine I wouldn’t do away with them (well apart from peados) , I’d be happy for them to just go do their nonsense in their own country.

All this you will be assimilated stuff is MMMMAAAAADDDDDDD
Report treetop December 30, 2014 8:56 PM GMT
Many,many years ago we had the agricultural revolution when farm labourers left the land to work in pits and cities. Look at any census returns and you will see whole communities emerged and grew as people relocated all around the UK to find work.Later we had mill workers,shipbuilders and textile workers all changing and adapting to new conditions. Why should the miners alone expect the work to be brought to their doorstep ?
Report sean rua December 31, 2014 12:31 PM GMT
Spot on, historically, treetops; and IMMIGRATION and MOVEMENT ACROSS THE GLOBE  continues today, despite pressure groups and silly fkrs on chat shows and betting fora.

TRAVELLERS  are God's true people. We do what NATURE INTENDED.

--
pAWRAS:

Do not be naive enough to try the old bill tactic of "yea or nay".

I have explained times enough how our system will only come in, when we have an overwhelming consensus. Who knows? Ye may have decided yourself to see sense by then?

Ye know what happens nowadays to folk who disagree with capitalism and, also to innocent folk, say, like newspaper sellers, who just want to get home from work.
Don't be letting your prejudices blind ye to reality. Ye may be driven by hatred of things from the past, eg the MINERS - WHO MADE GREAT BRITAIN GREAT - , and ye may be mindful of your nice pension from the military services or police force, BUT
when we are discussing the SYSTEM OF THE FUTURE , your GUESS  is no better and no worse, necessarily, than mine.

--

Here's something from page one of a logic book that I taught myself to read ( about fifty odd years ago).

Question:

" Have ye stopped beating your wife yet? Yes or No?

Ye have to work out what's wrong with the question.

'Twas a children's book, so ye should have no problem. Happy

Off on the pi ss now, so have a very HAPPY NEW YEAR ALL!


--

None of us is as smart as ALL of us!
The workers will be the greatest GLOBAL POWER. All we lack is UNITY.
Report pawras December 31, 2014 5:15 PM GMT
Sean –  I’m afraid you are very naïve/living in utter dream land if you think you’ll EVER get the system you desire in place. I would lay 1000 against it even happening in one country let alone globally.

You want to know why?
Because for one reason the vast majority of those in the % who are basically smarter and more capable than the majority will never sign up to it and the drones need those people. I’m sorry but people like that just aren’t willing to play Boxer in Animal Farm but you can’t/won’t accept that.

I know people and that’s why I think my guess that at least your system will never happen is better than yours.

It’s really quite worrying how you’ll happy do away with those who are obstinate enough to not want to ‘join up’ as you’d label them as deranged etc. However I dare bet a sizable % of those dim enough to sign up wouldn’t be ok with that or even just imposing your dream upon those who aren’t interested. But I guess once you’ve got your ‘system’ in place you’d ride rough shod over any dissenters of any kind.
Do you honestly not see a problem with any of that?????

As for me, even if I live to 1000 I wouldn’t vote in a socialist system let alone your totalitarian ‘dream’ and I’d actively fight against it so you’d have to have me on the bus to be ‘dealt with’ like all the other so called deranged people.

‘Funny’ thing is I would also lay a lot of money that 90% of those who advocate your type of thing haven’t got a pot to p&ss in relatively speaking.
Report pawras December 31, 2014 7:36 PM GMT
Sean – have you and your cohorts (I’m probably being very generous with the plural but I’ll suspend disbelief for the sake of argument) actually done anything meaningful to try and persuade the populous to be in favour of your ‘system’. I certainly haven’t seen or heard anything.

I see an immediate problem there because any sort of campaign requires money, lots of it, and no one with any meaningful amount is likely to plough any into such a  campaign.

Or perhaps you think it’s such a ‘great idea’ that the workers only need hear it through word of mouth and they’ll cast off their yokes and rise up against the bosses????


While I was out buying some more vodka etc for tonight I was giving it some thought as to how I think you could ever get your glorious revolution.

Given that most people just want to keep their head down and get on with life I think the only way you’d get any buy in from the great proletariat is that their relatively comfy existence would have to be under threat.
We are a long way from the big depression in UK and USA in 1930s , but even given the actual REAL hardships faced by people here and in the USA then there was certainly no big uprising demanding some form of communism. So I just don’t see it somehow unless great swathes of the world were facing starvation and no shelter. A few malcontents p&ssing in the wind ain’t gonna change anything Laugh


See I don’t think you could even get a consensus on any of the betfair forums let alone anything at even city level.
Given that it seems a fair chunk on these forums are broke a&se Jobless Sad Acts, have you ever even attempted or succeeded to get a significant buy in from them at least???
Report Eeternaloptimist December 31, 2014 7:44 PM GMT
Sean has a dream. A bit like Martin Luther King 50 years before him whose soaring oratory inspired millions towards a more just and meritocratic ideal. The problem is the sell for sean. I'm not sure how many would still be listening after his first sentence:

I have a dream for you to throw off your comfortable, warm and well fed existences to join me sleeping rough under the arches and rifling through the bins at the back of Lidl.
Report pawras December 31, 2014 7:48 PM GMT
yes but don't forget they'll be everybody's bins.......
Report Eeternaloptimist December 31, 2014 8:16 PM GMT
With nothing in them. Everybody gets a fair share.
Report Mexico December 31, 2014 8:22 PM GMT
Sean ... General election in 5 months Sean why not stand for Parliament . Deposit is only £500 & you will get that back if get enough votes.

Be a chance to see how many people support your idea of moving back to the Dark Ages and murdering billions of people.
Report sean rua January 2, 2015 1:46 PM GMT
Thank you all for the replies: there was some merit in them, but the most revealing thing was that the blinkered thinking that seems so natural and normal to ye three ( or, in typical btfr forum fashion, is it just one person?Laugh)
keeps ye from opening your minds and seeing the light. "There is none so blind as he who WILL NOT SEE" , and all that.

Realistically, I'm doing about the same as all those activists on here who are pumping out the pressure group's propaganda: ie.

"all the big political parties have failed and are sh ite, so we'll make a protest vote and shake them up ( even though we kippers know we WILL NOT WIN,  we don't mind our leaders joining the other fkrs for a short ride on the gravy train)."

That's basically the gist of most threads on here, with the occasional interjection of the odd stalwart who stands by either the A Team of Capitalism; the natural rulers, ie. the con and unionist party, or, his opposite number, the staunch nu-laborite, who being even more deluded, supports the B Team of Capitalism.

Now, ye'll agree with my brief synopsis of the actual situation on here, I think ye will have to concede that none of ye are any nearer getting what ye say ye want, and, almost certainly, after this here up and coming GE, ye will be the ones with shattered fkn dreams! Cool

I have tried to show ye the pitfalls, but I'm sad to say, ye will probably blunder on and crash to a painful conclusion, following Nige's arse, down, down, and deeper and down.

--

Most od the rest of what ye say is fairytale, makebelieve, that is supposed to take the p i ss, just like schoolkids do/did in the yard.
Some poor fkrs haven't advanced very far.

For instance, all that sh it in bold, from ET, is, as per usual, total invented stuff. It shows a complete lack of understanding of the reality of what we're saying.

Anyway, we must never let the bstrds grind us down, and we must continue on a one to one basis to try to help folk see the way forward. This is the way forward to the FUTURE.
Try to forget all the bllx from the schoolyard, and look forward to getting this planet sorted out a lot better than it is at present.
Get with the reality and, for once, be positive, and stand up for what is right. Ye have fk all to lose but your irrational fears!
They were just the invention of some profiteer.

Join the OPTIMISTS, and turn your back on the pessimistic losers. They have nothing to offer but empty boasts and a shed-load of hang-ups.

" None of us is as smart as ALL of us".
Only w an kers try to do it all on their own.ExcitedLaugh
Report pawras January 2, 2015 2:02 PM GMT
Being slightly patronising re helping people see the light/way forward etc etc removes weight from your arguments rather than adds any as your views have no more weight than anyone else’s I’m afraid.

Please consider the idea that people have weighed up the pros and cons of what you aim for and have come to a different conclusion and as such rejected it? Claiming that it’s just irrational fears etc doesn’t wash I’m afraid.

Plus I’m still interested to hear as to what you’ve done to further your aims, bending someone’s ear on the bus etc isn’t going to get you anywhere.
Report sean rua January 4, 2015 1:47 PM GMT
Interesting point, P, but not so sure about that, to be honest.

Many of your own posts tend to continually place your good self in the upper bracket of socio-economic society. I'm in no way disssing ye , but can ye tell us  what it is ye do that is so important to the rest of us?

No need to be specific, but would ye say ye do more for mankind than, say, a doctor of medecine?

I expect what ye will say is that ye employ folk and thus give them jobs and wages etc.
If so, good for ye, but I don't think many on here will think ye do it out of the goodness of your heart.

I know I didn't when I had men working for me. I did it bc I needed them.Happy
Report Eeternaloptimist January 4, 2015 2:39 PM GMT
Sean

The salient point is that you've by your own admission said that you will kill all those people who oppose you or who want to organise their own affairs in a free society.

Now I'm not saying we are totally opposed. We both want to see change. I just don't want to kill you because we disagree on what shape that society sould take.
Report pawras January 4, 2015 2:58 PM GMT
From the stuff I’ve read on such as the bbc and telegraph sites when they’ve done articles on these things I’m probably in the top 10% of the socio-economic scale but I started off down the bottom end.

Nah I’d say a doctor of medicine probably does more for mankind than me , but I’d rate my usefulness above a lawyer, these things are very subjective.

I’m a technical consultant , other people are just a resource to get a job done just like I’m a resource to a company to get a job done.
That’s why I haven’t been a permie from quite an early age because I saw through the veneer of bullsh&t companies will try to paint on working for them. You are NOTHING but a resource on the balance sheet to get x task(s) done which results in y amount of money etc, so best to get over that one.
Report sean rua January 5, 2015 9:59 AM GMT
ET:

I pointed out that even with a decent system suited to and wanted by the MAJORITY  of the World's people, there will likely still be
psychopaths and anti-social dissenters who cause misery to others with their pointless violence.
This minority of cnts, will, as in today's world, have to taken out for the greater good of humanity. If it means ending their life, this is unfortunate but. like now, will have to be done.

This isn't some wishy-washy playschool game run by the guardian or something. We have to face reality. History is long enough to show us what the fk goes down.
When asked, who would do the grisly work, I volunteered myself, bc some bstrd will have to do it.
Nothing new in any of that.

If ye are still not convinced of the need to deal with trouble and disease, please check out the story of TYPHOID MARY.
A wonderful, hard-working, well-meaning Irish lady who inadvertently killed off a score or so of folk.
They - the authorities - had to stop her infecting every bstd who came near her.

Can ye honestly see a way round this tricky and thorny issue? I'm open to improved ideas.
That's what all this chat is about. If we don't go forward, we're fkd. Simple as that.

--

Thanks, P.
Consulting is generally the best paid.
I admire anybody who is technical.
At the end of the day, ye will be superceded. The competition gets younger and more robotic everyday. Get and enjoy it while ye can!
Please remember, that unless your advice gets translated into something that somebody else DOES, it is pretty worthless ( like my views on politics, perhaps).

Under capitalism, this doesn't matter, provided the profits are still rolling in. But, most schemes and scams are short-termist, so they don't last forever.
'Tis all a bit like being a soccer manager, perhaps.

I'd guess that there are hundreds of undiscovered players in the jungles of Africa and South America, who, if given, or, even if wanting the oppotunity, could run rings round the highest paid soccer manager the world has ever seen.

Personally, I'd be inclined to believe that actual, formal education would be but a minor factor in all this. I'd say ruthless ambition and lucky breaks - based on being able to get a lot out of others, ie. being a USER, is, and has long been the way to SUCCESS.

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Yes, according to old Marx, ye would be lumped in with us lot - the working class. The day ye stop gaining your main income from working, but, instead, make it largely from capital ownership and the profits and rents that accrue from this capital ownership, ye will then be a fully-fledged capitalist. Plain

All the very best, and get it while ye can!
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