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Eeternaloptimist
05 Jul 13 10:54
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Date Joined: 28 Jun 10
| Topic/replies: 38,236 | Blogger: Eeternaloptimist's blog
The UK is at risk of creating a two-tier labour market in which growing numbers of workers earn little more than the legal minimum, the founding chair of the government's Low Pay Commission has warned.

Professor Sir George Bain said that without new thinking on the minimum wage there was a risk the purpose of the commission would be perverted and it might even turn into a drag on wages.

Bain is returning to chair a review of how the minimum wage and the role of the commission that sets it might be strengthened. He says his expert panel, set up with the help of the respected Resolution Foundation thinktank, will consider options such as helping push up wages in certain sectors that can afford to pay more.

He said the cross-party support achieved by the commission was paradoxically one reason it needed a review.

"My back still bears the scars from introducing the minimum wage so I don't need reminding how controversial it was," Bain said. "But in a way the policy has been a victim of its own success. The wide support means the policy has settled down into a premature middle age, with little thinking about how it could do more to tackle low pay.

"When we began our work in 1997, we saw jobs being advertised at 100 hours a week for £1 an hour. That sort of low pay is gone. But with one in five workers still earning below the living wage it's time to reflect on whether the design of the minimum wage is right for the next 15 years."

The commission has been seen as one of the great policy successes of UK politics and it is rare that its impact on the labour market is questioned.

But a report from the Resolution Foundation has found that almost one in 10 jobs now pays within 50p of the minimum wage as the labour market has become increasingly "bottom-heavy".


Many of is pointed this out at the time and have been arguing that this is the case for years. Of course the solution to failed intervention is of course more intervention. Laugh

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Replies: 155
By:
Dr Crippen
When: 05 Jul 13 11:06
The commission has been seen as one of the great policy successes of UK politics and it is rare that its impact on the labour market is questioned.

How has it failed?
By:
blackburn1
When: 05 Jul 13 11:13
Every time the min wage goes up everyone else expects a pay rise too.

Govt interference at its worst
By:
Ski-Wiz
When: 05 Jul 13 11:45
MW should be scrapped.

The government has no right to interfere in private businesses operation and liberty of individuals to decide for themselves. MW caused job losses and increased in prices of goods, so any increases in wages is offset by higher prices of products. This then raised the costs of products for export resulting in loss of exports as importers went elsewhere for cheaper goods. All that matters is the purchasing power. MW had discriminated against disabled people in many jobs as when a business is forced to pay MW, they only employed workers that will matched the required productivity to pay the said MW. Employers always fear that disabled people will not match the productivity of non-disabled people.

MW had nothing to do with raising standard of worker's pay or living standard, it doesn't work like that. MW was introduced because of the tax credit system as they go together hand in hand. Tax credit system (TCS) without MW would make TCS too expensive. Both TCS and MW must go.
By:
Eeternaloptimist
When: 05 Jul 13 11:51
Crippen

It's failed in the sense that it has created misery for millions to address a perceived problem of a smaller number. It was also doomed to fail in my view as an intellectual construct because it interfered with the ability of adults to make contracts how they saw fit without coercion on one or other party.
By:
Dr Crippen
When: 05 Jul 13 13:03
Lower wages mean higher welfare payments for those on low wages, and more people opting out of work - you can't have it all ways.

With minimum living standards set at the level that they are, who would work for less than the MW when they could claim and not be out of pocket?
We can't get people out of bed to take a job now, so how many would we have on the dole without the MW?
Misery for millions indeed.
By:
blackburn1
When: 05 Jul 13 13:09
Phuck me crippen have you gone soft?

Cut welfare and get the lazy bastards working, plenty of immigrants pick apples and clean cars
By:
Eeternaloptimist
When: 05 Jul 13 13:23
A voice of sense returns. Welcome back Blackie.
By:
Eeternaloptimist
When: 05 Jul 13 13:24
Next someone will be on telling us we've got to bribe people or they will murder us in our beds. Laugh
By:
Dr Crippen
When: 05 Jul 13 13:28
Absolutely Blackie, but that's not going to happen is it?

We have to work with the situation that we've got.
By:
blackburn1
When: 05 Jul 13 13:31
Thanks EO, tbh this has become an awful place, I'm all for a bit of abuse but the forum is infested with morons.

I never thought I'd pine for the likes of Dr J and baracouda, at least they could string a sentence together and were sane, most on here now are either semi literate or deranged, in some cases both.
By:
blackburn1
When: 05 Jul 13 13:33
crippen, theres plenty that won't happen that should:

the death penalty
prison ships
leave the EU
etc etc

but the voices of reason mustn't stay silent, our politicians have the brains of nlad and boris, they need reminding
By:
Ski-Wiz
When: 05 Jul 13 13:39
Dr Crippen - living standards....cost living standards rises when MW rises so no gain there.....higher MW meaning higher living standards IS an illusion for those not living in the real world.

Beside, people should not have a choice between taking a job and living on welfare. Simple really.....job centre lackey offers a job.....layabout welfare scrounger says 'nah nah nah'....lackey press a few buttons and say 'all benefits cancelled'.CoolCool
By:
Ski-Wiz
When: 05 Jul 13 13:41
our politicians have the brains of nlad and boris, they need reminding

Oh..oh...nah nah nah......they need SHOOTING....Crazy
By:
blackburn1
When: 05 Jul 13 13:44
Lets be fair, get them manning the prison ships.

Get the scrotes out in the North Sea for a few years and see reoffending rates fall.
By:
Dr Crippen
When: 05 Jul 13 13:47
I've been saying the same for years Ski-Wiz.

It certainly happens to single people who turn down jobs without good reason, but people with dependent kids are a different proposition.
It's never been any different under either party.
By:
Eeternaloptimist
When: 05 Jul 13 13:56
I agree with your points about the morons blackie. One other thing which seems to be missing more and more is humour. Losing people like Ronnie has created a huge void. A bit of funny abuse is a real tonic even if you're on the end of it.
By:
Mister E
When: 05 Jul 13 13:59
Mininum wage has to be reviewed in context with Tax Credits, Minimum Tax Thresholds, benefit levels.

Politicians dont think that broadly or long term.


Tax credit system is subsidising companies who pay poor wages; when the companies themselves are filtering profits off shore to avoid tax;
we are taken for mugs.

We being skilled workers, middle management, small businessmen, tax payers who govts. take for granted.

Reduce minimum wage, tax credits soar, incentive to work drops  and we are left to foot the bill. Not the offshore spivs.
By:
blackburn1
When: 05 Jul 13 14:02
Ronnie is a big loss, he'd give and take, I'd like to think I can too.

Some of the filth I read on here is diabolical, personal and pure fiction, you know what I mean

Your old mucker melly is different altogether, clearly very bright but even more obviously crackers. My guess is substance abuse
By:
Ski-Wiz
When: 05 Jul 13 14:10
people with dependent kids are a different proposition.

Don't care.......too many feckers shouldn't be having kids when they have no job, money or in a stable relationship.
By:
Eeternaloptimist
When: 05 Jul 13 14:11
Melly claims to be a Professor at the LSE. That's some substance alright. Laugh
By:
blackburn1
When: 05 Jul 13 14:11
Correct
By:
blackburn1
When: 05 Jul 13 14:12
Mine was to ski.

I thought melly retired early and lived somewhere exotic.
By:
Eeternaloptimist
When: 05 Jul 13 14:12
Mister E

I'm sure you'd disagree but our logic involves the ending of tax credits.
By:
Mister E
When: 05 Jul 13 14:13
"Hard working families" is another politicians fluffy phrase with no substance like "affordable housing".

Plenty of single people, couples with no kids, work their nuts off and are taxed to the hilt.
By:
Eeternaloptimist
When: 05 Jul 13 14:13
blackie

He does. In his head. Where could be more exotic than that? Beats his rat infested bedsit.
By:
Mister E
When: 05 Jul 13 14:17
EO,
Dont disagree, I have made the case that we are subsidising poor paying (sometimes tax dodging ) employers.

But as I said removing Min. Wage on its own, will just force up Benefit Claims.

Min. Wage, benefits, tax credits, and tax threshold need to be reviewed in unison. And flooding the labour market with unskilled workers.
By:
boris-the-animal
When: 05 Jul 13 14:18
Ski-wiz

living standards....cost living standards rises when MW rises so no gain there.....higher MW meaning higher living standards IS an illusion for those not living in the real world.

Of course it must be a well known that fact cost of living do not increase when there is no MW and inflation was negligeable and inflation only happened after the introduction of MW!!!Crazy

MW was introduced because of the tax credit system as they go together hand in hand. Tax credit system (TCS) without MW would make TCS too expensive. Both TCS and MW must go.

Why would MW not work with the old Family Credit TCs replaced introduced by Thatcher?

So maybe it was dumb for politicians to try to bribe people to take low paid jobs with taxpayer subsidies and you would prefer no help at all to low paid workers.
By:
boris-the-animal
When: 05 Jul 13 14:26
It seems like listening to a set of Victorian Mill owners discussing the best way to exploit/kill their workers and how they could perfect the art!!!Laugh

It is really pathetic that so many people lack the slightest bit of empathy to the plight of low paid workers and are seeking toremove any MW and welfare transfers that exist to help them cope with the current system.
By:
Ski-Wiz
When: 05 Jul 13 14:27
I thought melly retired early and lived somewhere exotic.

You shouldn't believe what people say about themselves on the internet.....all taken by me with a micro pinch of salt.
By:
Eeternaloptimist
When: 05 Jul 13 14:30
Min. Wage, benefits, tax credits, and tax threshold need to be reviewed in unison. And flooding the labour market with unskilled workers.

Agreed.
By:
Ski-Wiz
When: 05 Jul 13 14:31
Plenty of single people, couples with no kids, work their nuts off and are taxed to the hilt.

That's why i've always wanted personal allowance at £13,000 and abolish child benefit. No difference in final income for those up to two kiddies and those with no kiddies will benefit. Allows them to save for their own future when they want kiddies, unlike the benefits breeders who sponge off the state.
By:
boris-the-animal
When: 05 Jul 13 14:39
blackburn1
05 Jul 13 14:02
Joined:
15 Jan 02
| Topic/replies: 23,717 | Blogger: blackburn1's blog
Ronnie is a big loss, he'd give and take, I'd like to think I can too.


Totally agree with your point about Ronnie and he was definitely one of the smartest and entertaining posters around Politics.

But as for you I have to disagree having seen the way you traded insults and outrage with Angel Gabrial or NL I would probably not place you on the the side of those who can give and take!!!
By:
Ski-Wiz
When: 05 Jul 13 14:49
Why would MW not work with the old Family Credit TCs replaced introduced by Thatcher?


Don't know how FC worked as i am not that oldLaughLaugh. TCS without MW, means employers will pay lower wages on purpose and tell their employees to claim TC.

So maybe it was dumb for politicians to try to bribe people to take low paid jobs with taxpayer subsidies and you would prefer no help at all to low paid workers.

Low paid workers problems are not the wages but the mickey mouse economic system we have. The erosion of purchasing power. The taxes paid by all businesses ends up in the costs of goods with VAT on top to add insult to injury. Hence taxes needs to come down and can only be done if politicians stop spending to bribe thick voters who waddle to the polling booths accepting those bribes.
By:
Ski-Wiz
When: 05 Jul 13 14:50
welfare transfers

Huh....transfers from the poor to the rich IS the present economic system and welfare like TC and HB.
By:
boris-the-animal
When: 05 Jul 13 14:56
That's why i've always wanted personal allowance at £13,000 and abolish child benefit. No difference in final income for those up to two kiddies and those with no kiddies will benefit. Allows them to save for their own future when they want kiddies, unlike the benefits breeders who sponge off the state.

Having PA at £13K but no benefits will penalise alot for low income/middle income families but the childless person/families would  benefit quite a bit.

So with that it would become so expensive to raise a family more that than 40% of the population simply could not afford to have children.

Within a generation or two we would find ourselves in the same demographic situation as Japan with too few young people supporting the old people and those old people won't agree to mass immigration to mitigate those effects as well.
By:
Ski-Wiz
When: 05 Jul 13 15:08
So with that it would become so expensive to raise a family more that than 40% of the population simply could not afford to have children.

Affordability depends on timing and state of relationship, ie being married would help a lot. Too many having kids at 16 to 24 without a job.....everyone else has to pay more taxes to subsidies those.
By:
boris-the-animal
When: 05 Jul 13 15:09
Don't know how FC worked as i am not that oldLaughLaugh. TCS without MW, means employers will pay lower wages on purpose and tell their employees to claim TC.

Are you in your 20s, if you don't mind me asking?

I was also very young when Brown started to tinker with the Family Allowance system in the late 90s but I equally know next to nothing about the present system so I am not sure it is a matter of age!!!Laugh

The thing is you cannot abolish all those benefits except if you were to change the system so that housing, utilities, transport etc became more affordable.

I don't see anyone having appetite for such a dramatic change so I am seeing politicians only tweaking at the edges.
By:
Ski-Wiz
When: 05 Jul 13 15:29
Are you in your 20s, if you don't mind me asking?

Lets just say i wasn't an adult when FC was around.
By:
Ski-Wiz
When: 05 Jul 13 15:42
I equally know next to nothing about the present system so I am not sure it is a matter of age!

I can tell you its diabolical. I had access to the software that calculates exactly how TC worked, not the mickey mouse rubbish on the internet. I did various experiments on a 'what if' basis.

Basically income £12,000 then £16,000 then £20,000. Take home £16,000 - £10 per week more than £12,000 and £20,000 - £20 per week more than £12,000.

So at £20,000, one earns £8,000 more than those on £12,000 but take home only £1,040 more. Get this....Earn £8,000 more but only £1,040 better off. Why in god name would anyone go to university, incurring £50,000 debts, when you are not going to earn that much more than those lazy uneducated feckers with no debts? When you have to start paying your debts back that £1,040 goes in debts repayments. Why in god name should those who work harder to earn more, while the lazy sods get just a little less for bumming around?
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