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4thjulykid
13 Sep 12 16:50
Joined:
Date Joined: 09 Jul 08
| Topic/replies: 1,222 | Blogger: 4thjulykid's blog
Blackburn, Java, Eeternaloptimist, thedodgepot, salmon spray, do you? Or do you admit you were wrong.

Boris Johnson issued this statement today, he joins plenty

'I'm very, very glad that this report does lay to rest the false allegation that was made at the time about the behaviour of those fans,' he said.
'I'm glad that this independent report has finally nailed the myth that drunken fans were in any way responsible for the deaths of 96 people.
'That was a lie that unfortunately and very, very regrettably got picked up in a leader in the Spectator in 2004, which I was then editing.
'I went to Liverpool to apologise unreservedly for that mistake and I repeat that apology today.
'It was sloppy to repeat the old canard that the Hillsborough tragedy was caused by drunken fans, when the inquiry report found no evidence for this whatever.
Pause Switch to Standard View Who still blames drunken Liverpool...
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Report 4thjulykid September 14, 2012 6:16 PM BST
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jtzHVe2mEN
so cramming too many people into what was effectively a cage with no escape isnt the main cause of the disaster. These poor people were crushed .similar incidents had happened including one at this stadium before Would you not say if capacity was lower this would not have happened hence this could have been prevented in the first place. So therefore i would suggest this was the main reason yes. You can see in pictures a videos these stadium were well over crowded in the standing areas.


For the last time. The panel found the police to blame. I have no opinion about the ground, I am not an expert, I am not guessing as to what were the causes, I am quoting the Hillsborough Panel. They do not blame the configuration of the ground, if you do that is your perogative but it is in conflict to what the panel says. Therefore you have opposing views. Good luck with that.
Report daz55o September 14, 2012 8:40 PM BST
4th july

I have just spent 2 hours reading through the panels report.

And no where does it say the police are to blame it clearly says right near the start i think in chapter 1. This was a combination of factors. And it starts of with the history of the safety concern about the stadium. It is only the mainstream media who were probably a little bit too hasty to report the news as soon as they could. As the news drips out bit by bit you will realise the police were not entirely to blame.


The problem is you are most likely to be the sort who just repeats like a parrot what he hears on the news or read in the newspaper. I cant see you spending the time to read this report if you did it clearly state right near the start this was a combination of factors and it does not at any stage of the report say it was the police fault.

take a look at the report for yourself instead of thinking  must be right cos they said it on telly and i read it in the newspaper

http://www.official-documents.gov.uk/document/hc1213/hc05/0581/0581.pdf
Report Angel Gabrial September 14, 2012 8:46 PM BST
Peter Beardsley must wake up every morning and say a little thank you that his shot hit the crossbar at Hillsborough.

If he had scored the goal the crush in the Liverpool end would have been intensified and hundreds more could have died.
Report Pounf September 14, 2012 9:06 PM BST
I was at that semi final 8 years earlier at Hillsborough, when 38 Spurs fans were injured due to crushing. (I was at the other end thankfully). It seems to me that the FA`s choice of Hillsborough is getting off lightly. I had actually forgotten about the 81 semi, until somebody retweated the footage. To go back to that ground after those scenes seems criminally negligent. Once that place is chosen the accident, nay tragedy waiting to happen got the green light.
Report berto77 September 14, 2012 9:09 PM BST
I agree Pounf.  The FA have lots of questions to answer.  It's ironic they took semi finals away from Highbury because Arsenal wouldn't put fences in.
Report Angel Gabrial September 14, 2012 9:12 PM BST
Pounf

I`m sure in 87` Leeds fans almost suffered a crush at Hillsborough in the FACup as well.

The police reacted that day or else it would have been serious.
Report daz55o September 14, 2012 9:12 PM BST
it says in the report the stadium didnt have a valid safety certificate
Report berto77 September 14, 2012 9:19 PM BST
True, but that has been known for years.

Actual it's remarkable how the Taylor report has stood the test of time.  He conducted his inquiry and produced his first report within a few months.  He cleared the fans, blamed the Police and made recommendations which have basically prevented any repeat since.  His weeks report shed new light on the inquest and cover up, not really the events of the day.

The truth shouldn't have been so elusive for 23 years.
Report berto77 September 14, 2012 9:20 PM BST
^^ This weeks report...
Report daz55o September 14, 2012 10:13 PM BST
comment by 4th july
for the last time. The panel found the police to blame. I have no opinion about the ground, I am not an expert, I am not guessing as to what were the causes, I am quoting the Hillsborough Panel. They do not blame the configuration of the ground, if you do that is your perogative but it is in conflict to what the panel says

WRONG AGAIN....
the truth

I have read the panels report it clearly goes in to some depth about the safety issues of the stadium in quite some detail and the history of and how safety was neglected in order to save money the report clearly brings into issue serious safety concerns
Report 4thjulykid September 14, 2012 10:56 PM BST
1.134 Significantly, the FA 'did not consider in any depth whether it [Hillsborough] was suitable for a high risk match with an attendance of 54,000 requiring to be segregated, all of whom were, in effect, among supporters lacking week in week out knowledge of the ground'. The choice of venue, however, was not 'causative of the disaster' and he did not accept that the Leppings Lane terrace 'was incapable of being successfully policed'.
Report daz55o September 14, 2012 11:22 PM BST
Following the near tragedy in 1981, Hillsborough was not used for FA Cup semifinals
until 1987. During this period the Leppings Lane terrace underwent a series
of significant modifications and alterations, none of which led to a revised safety
certificate. The introduction of further lateral fences created two central pens
accessed via the tunnel beneath the West Stand. Recommendations to feed fans
directly from designated turnstiles into each pen, thus monitoring precisely the
distribution of fans between the pens, were not acted on because of anticipated
costs to SWFC.
8. Consequently, the turnstile counters were rendered irrelevant. Although they
provided a check on the overall numbers entering the terrace, there was no
information regarding crowd distribution between pens, each of which had an
established maximum capacity.
Report daz55o September 14, 2012 11:26 PM BST
9. It is evident from the disclosed documents that SYP were preoccupied with
crowd management, segregation and regulation to prevent potential disorder.
SWFC’s primary concern was to limit costs. The Fire Service, however, raised
concerns about provision for emergency evacuation of the terraces. As the only
means of escaping forwards was onto the pitch, concern was raised specifically
about the width of the perimeter fence gates which was well below the standard
recommended by the Green Guide. The gradient of the tunnel under the West
Stand leading down onto the terrace also significantly breached the Green Guide’s
recommendation.
Report daz55o September 14, 2012 11:28 PM BST
Following alterations, the safety of the existing maximum capacity for the Leppings
Lane terrace was questioned repeatedly yet the decision was taken by the Club and
the safety engineers not to revise the figure.
Report 4thjulykid September 14, 2012 11:36 PM BST
The Hillsborough Panel was set up to discover all the previous evidence, disclosed and undisclosed, concerning the 96 deaths at Hillsborough. They  concur with the Taylor report which blames " operational failures by the police " for the Hillsborough disaster. The other emergency services were criticised  for lack of response after it had become apparent that a pitch invasion was not what was taking place.

The problems with the ground were always denied by Sheffield Wednesday FC. The local council was responsible for issuing the safety certificate, Taylor said failure to do so was . 'inefficient and dilatory'.

Taylor, as I posted earlier, found the that the ground was not the cause and that end of the ground should have been policed successfully.

The Hillsborough Family Support Group took out private prosecutions against two serving police officers. not to my knowledge against SWFC or Eastwoods, the clubs engineers.

SY Police tried unsuccessfully to sue SWFC and Eastwoods. An out of court settlement was the outcome.
Report daz55o September 14, 2012 11:37 PM BST
12. From the documents disclosed to the Panel, key issues – positioning of safety
barriers, elevation of the tunnel, adequacy of the perimeter fence gates – were not
discussed or recorded at the annual safety inspections. Following the delayed kickoff
at the 1987 FA Cup Semi-Final and the crushing at the 1988 FA Cup Semi-Final,
it is evident that debriefings held by all parties were inadequate. Crucial information
arising from these events was not shared within SYP, nor was it exchanged between
SYP and other agencies. There is no record provided by SWFC of debriefings held
between Club stewards and their managers. The Club denied knowledge of any
crowd-related concerns arising from the 1987 or 1988 FA Cup Semi-Finals.
Report 4thjulykid September 14, 2012 11:47 PM BST
Daz, Taylor said the venue was not " causative " . I do not know which part of that you do not understand. And if you are not in agreement with Taylor that is not my problem.

He had only mild criticism of SWFC and Eastwoods, but did say that they had some responsibility in a 'number of respects in which failure by the Club contributed to this disaster'.

He noted that monitoring pens was a police responsibility, but also that, 'the Club had a duty to its visitors and the Club's officials ought to have alerted the police to the grossly uneven distribution of fans on the terraces ... the onus here was on the Club as well as on the police'.At the time SWFC and SYP were at loggerheads and didnt even attend all the pre match meetings together.
Report daz55o September 14, 2012 11:48 PM BST
4 july

what about the crush in1981 which was reported as a miracle no one was killed police again? and the crushing at 87 and 88 which the club covered up was this the police too.
Report 4thjulykid September 14, 2012 11:49 PM BST
Dont forget Taylor had all the facts about the venue at the time of his report, and his conclusion was not causative.
Report daz55o September 15, 2012 12:07 AM BST
surely swfc were a least must take a big part of the blame no  safety certificate warned many times that maximum capacity was too high. putting cost before safety. Not disclosing information its all in the panels report
Report daz55o September 15, 2012 12:27 AM BST
80. An initial investigation into the condition of the Leppings Lane terrace and its
approaches was conducted by Sheffield City Council. It found deficiencies in the
placement of safety barriers and in the width of the perimeter fence gates.
81. In its more detailed investigation, the Health and Safety Executive (HSE) established
that the safe maximum capacity of the pens had been set too high and that the
crowd density in pen 3, where most of the deaths occurred, was substantially
higher than the Green Guide maximum.
82. The HSE established not only that the maximum capacity of the terrace and the
central pens had been significantly over-calculated, but that alterations to the
terrace had not been considered in establishing safe capacity. It concluded that the
terrace safety barriers were considerably below the recommended height and
Report 2honest4ere September 15, 2012 6:25 AM BST
Man with his hands in his pockets walking away from demo followed by a dozen riot police,one a dod handler is pushed to the ground and later dies.Polce officer thought he was a danger.
for a long time police officer id protected by his work mates .

Man (terror suspect) ran away from plain clothes police and jumped/vaulted over ticket rail at the tube station says chief police officer. LATER truth is innocent man walked to his seat on the train and then shot by police officers.

Hillsborough Police chiefs say -----------------Police retract

Seems everytime theres a disaster police chiefs quickly act with statements to get the public onside,then begin the job of covering up their mistakes/ negligence.
Report Mister E September 15, 2012 9:20 AM BST
Who still blames drunken Liverpool fans for Hillsborough?

Everybody with an open mind realised the truth years ago.


Those who had stereotyped football supporters as animals, believed the police propaganda for a bit longer.

Surprised the establishment cover up fooled some people for so long. they believe what they want to believe.

i was at a league match that day with my 15 year old son. There but for a fortune. And the thought that 20 years later people would still try and portray us as drunks, robbing the dead, and attacking the police, and urinating on people is nauseating. That people believed it for so long indicates how many mugs there are who believe the rubbish in the media.

These days football makes the media lots of MONEY; sells newspapers, AND SKY subscriptions. There would be a different spin now, the gullible believe what they are told.

The decision to cage in the public with no means of escape from fire or strucutural damage was a reckless
unnnecessary over reaction.
Report daz55o September 15, 2012 11:33 AM BST
the report suggests the police were lying to everyone the statements were tampered. They gave false stories to the media. The government was even told a pack of lies by the head of south yorkshire police.
Report salmon spray September 16, 2012 6:07 PM BST
I have been on holiday so have only just seen this thread and the mention I get on the OP. Must be years since I commented on this,somebody has a long memory.
However as
1) I was born in Sheffield
2) I was living in the city on 15/4/89.
3) I was over the age of criminal responsibility at the time.
I am going to hand myself over to Merseyside Police as I was obviously part of a conspiracy to lure saintly scousers to our hellhole of a city in order to kill as many as possible. I realise Liverpool is the only place where I can expect a fair trial before I am torn to pieces.
Report daz55o September 16, 2012 6:17 PM BST
salmon

unless you are the police you will be fine with the op.

If you are the police then as far as the op goes you can rot in hell he blames everything on the police.
Report bazzar September 16, 2012 7:53 PM BST
Many have then and later, many of them were police so don't try to dodge that fact, daz550.
You sound like an avenging THATCHER who hated ALL who did NOT follow her chosen political ideology, she hated with a vengeance.
Report daz55o September 16, 2012 9:10 PM BST
who do i hate on this one bazzar

who am i hating with a vengance

hers a brief summary what i have said on this thread

the safety and suitability of the stadium was flawed IT DIDNT EVEN HAVE A VALID SAFETY CERTIFICATE for this type of match in 1981 there had already been a serious crush then again in 87 and 88 , the police made serious mistakes of judgement on the day then tampered with evidence to try and exempt themselves from blame and then fed the press with false stoies.
Report bazzar September 16, 2012 10:03 PM BST
Either you stop making unequivocal statements or get your point across more sccinctly, stop prevaricating, one side or the other.
Report bazzar September 16, 2012 10:09 PM BST
2honest4ere, said it all, we have a bent police force and I have experience of that where I live, the force which polices my particular area has the worst reputation of ALL the forces in Britain.
When the head is rotten the body rots as well.
Many police officers are just time servers willing to take the money without any thought for honesty or justice.
Report daz55o September 16, 2012 10:18 PM BST
bazzar

what statements?

obviously you are quite acquainted with the police makes me wonder what you have been up to lately.
Report bazzar September 16, 2012 10:32 PM BST
I reported a paedo, nothing done and the youngest kept calling me by my name, then asked if I watched my security camera video all day, I lost my temper and told them to leave, they couldn't wait to get out, saved them some writing.
Report daz55o September 16, 2012 10:56 PM BST
police are only there when you dont need them. I did hear a story of young girl who had been beaten in a fight and looking in need of help  and approached a police car only to be told not our department we are traffic police, at least they were kind they  enough to give her directions to the nearest police office.

too much chasing targets and manipulation of facts ans figures for me. much of the crime doent get reported anymore because people know its a waste of time
Report Eeternaloptimist September 16, 2012 11:23 PM BST
Mister E

The decision to cage in the public with no means of escape from fire or strucutural damage was a reckless unnnecessary over reaction.

Fair point about the safety issue whish wasn't taken as seriously in those days with catatsrophic conseqences on more than one occasion but to what over reaction are you referring? I seem to remember an awful lot of violence in those days with loss of life at football grounds. There is no doubt that the majority suffered for the thuggery of a sizeable minority but the problems they caused was hardly insignificant.
Report salmon spray September 17, 2012 12:14 AM BST
Oh dear. I agree with Eo.
There is no doubt the entrance to The Leppings Lane End was not really fit for purpose given the ...er...boisterous nature of many football fans in the 80s,but the fact is you tended to get buffeted around at any football stadium if you were standing in those days and there was a large crowd. But in 91 years nobody had been killed as far as I know till 1989. And amidst all the self-righteous noises coming out of Merseyside I haven't heard the word Heysel mentioned. Funny how that gets written out of history.
Report daz55o September 17, 2012 12:23 AM BST
if 3 things hadnt came together this wouldnt have happened

1) fences penning the fans in

2) safety of the stadium.. capacity of the standing areas was set far too high they club had been warned about this numerous times including by the police also other safety issued were ignorned.

3) The police made at least 2 or 3 major errors

take 1 of these factors out the thing wouldnt have happened
Report 4thjulykid September 17, 2012 11:09 AM BST
Salmon Spray


salmon spray23 Aug 11 15:10Joined: 10 Jan 07 | Topic/replies: 18,073 | Blogger: salmon spray's blog
Bentley. I knew the ground pretty well prior to 1989. In addition one of my best friends had already been a steward there for 10 years or more and was there on the day.
There`s no doubt the design of that end was a problem. It was a bottleneck if people were piling in. That was why they had to let the drunks in. They didn`t have much choice as otherwise there would probably have been a disaster just OUTSIDE. Of course the cages and fences were standard in all major football grounds at the time. There was nothing specifically wrong with the design inside. There seems to be little doubt that the authorities were slow to cotton on to what was happening and probably some died who didn`t need to. But frankly blaming the authorities is similar to blaming social workers when a child is murdered. No doubt they could have done more but they weren`t the criminal element.A criminal element that had been seen a few years before in Heysel. A disaster which for some reason is never mentioned as much.
Report 4thjulykid September 17, 2012 11:20 AM BST
If you are the police then as far as the op goes you can rot in hell he blames everything on the police.

And so does Lord Taylor. Read HIS lips, having ALL the information about the ground, " the venue was not causative ( in case you do not know what this means,'not the fault of the ground'), and the Leppings Lane end  not a problem to be policed "

It seems, all commentators accept Lord Taylors findings ie. "operational failures" by the the police as the cause, as do the Hillsborough Action Group. I would guess 99.9% also accept that with the added information now discovered by the panel that Lord Taylor hit the nail on the head.

You have to be a bit obtuse to disagree with the finding.
Report Mister E September 17, 2012 11:24 AM BST
eo,
In UK the loss of lives due to violence occurred outside the stadia.
I was going pre segregation and it was bad.
The "safety" fences were erected to stop pitch invasions; nobody got killed as a result of a pitch invasion.
The mood perpetrated at the time was that fans were animals. So they the fences were erected to pen them in.
The lies about robbing the dead, attacking the police as they tried to save lives, urinating on dead bodies: reinforced the existing prejudices; it was what the Press and  Right Wing politicians wanted to believe.

It amazes me that the hours of film, close circuit TV, ans thousands of photographs showed nothing of the kind; BUT the gullible didn't question the police version or it suited their prejudices to ignore it.
Report 4thjulykid September 17, 2012 11:25 AM BST
Salmon Spray

It seems that the authourities
Report 4thjulykid September 17, 2012 11:27 AM BST
Salmon Spray

It seems as if the authorities were the criminal element, and I expect charges to be brought against the police,don't you?
Report Mister E September 17, 2012 11:29 AM BST
But frankly blaming the authorities is similar to blaming social workers when a child is murdered.

If the social worker had told lies to try and shift the blame on to the child; I would be angry too.

Opening the gate to the supporters (humans not drunks), caused the problem. Human error; but the lies that followed are unforgiveable. I am amaezd that even now people are still categorised as "drunks". Shameful.
Report Java September 17, 2012 11:44 AM BST
I wonder how many hours 4th July Kid has spent going through threads from years ago?
Report 4thjulykid September 17, 2012 12:20 PM BST
I wonder how many hours 4th July Kid has spent going through threads from years ago?

Not many you simpleton, I'm quoting from the one refreshed last week or so.
Report daz55o September 17, 2012 12:24 PM BST
4th july

this stadium was not safe MANY WARNING SIGNS WERE UNHADED INCLUDING A CRUSH IN 1981 when the club was warned by numerous source including the police who had policed in 1981. THAT STEWARD YOU KNOW IS EITHER CLUELESS OR A LYING BASTARD The result of the panel makes this ultra clear. SWFC AND THE GROUP RESPONSIBLE FOR SAFETY AT THE GROUP EASTWOON HAVE ACCEPTED A PART OF THE BLAME IN COMPENSATION PAID.

By no means am i saying the police were not largely to blame AND THE lying and cover up was absolutely shocking and  but other factors are at work here.
Report 4thjulykid September 17, 2012 12:25 PM BST
Hillsborough, what are they trying to hide? last post on the 13th Sept.

There you go Java, you can read all your bullshine on that thread. Your problem is that you spout so much tripe on a lot of threads that you forget what you have posted previously.
Report 4thjulykid September 17, 2012 12:29 PM BST
Many changes to the Leppings Lane end were made after 1981. You keep banging on about the ground. Lord Taylor had these facts including compensation paid to victims families, mainly on the lack of facilities after the fact.

You disagree with Lord Taylor, you say the ground was causative,he does'nt.
Report daz55o September 17, 2012 12:43 PM BST
yes changes were made in says in the panel report if you look that the changes made actually made it more dangerous in respect of capacity overload due to extra structues which they didnt allow for tghere was crushing at the 87 and 88 semi finals this is all in the report the crushing was caused by too many people being crammed in so this has to be a big factor for me surely.
Report 4thjulykid September 17, 2012 12:51 PM BST
I refuse to keep going over the same old same old to you Daz.

I agree with the Taylor report as quoted in the Hillsborough panels report, as do the Hillsborough Action Group along with the majority of those who have the slightest interest.

The Hillsborough Action Group have no intention, as far as I am aware of putting criminal charges to SWFC, Eastwoods or Sheffield City Council. They are tacking legal action against the SY police.

You disagree with Lord Taylor as I have pointed out on numerous occasions. I suggest you contact Lord Taylor and inform him that he was wrong in concluding that the venue was not causative.

I agrr
Report bazzar September 17, 2012 12:52 PM BST
daz550, I must apologise for my post against you, I was guided by the post where you said
to salmon spray someone OP  the police were to blame for everything, and that angered me,
it seemed that you were defending the police, SORRY!!!!!
Report daz55o September 17, 2012 12:58 PM BST
4 th july

you are wrong swfc and eastwoods stadium security have already accepted some of the blame in form of compensation payments this amounts have been disclosed in the panel report although i forget the exact figures they were around  a third of the total compensation payments made.
Report salmon spray September 17, 2012 1:00 PM BST
To question the Liverpool version of events now seems to be the equivalent of Holocaust Denial. Thank you for bringing up my previous post. I don't think I would change a word. You will note that I never blamed the victims. I do think they were completely innocent and the responsibility for their deaths lies at the door of various groups.
Report 4thjulykid September 17, 2012 1:06 PM BST
you are wrong swfc and eastwoods stadium security have already accepted some of the blame in form of compensation payments this amounts have been disclosed in the panel report although i forget the exact figures they were around  a third of the total compensation payments made.

They have accepted blame for the lack of facilities in the aftermath. They were responsible for lack of medical staff etc. They have not ever accepted blame for any part of the cause. They paid 2/3 million in compensation, paid for by their insurers, who by the way would not have paid out if their clients were culpable.
Report 4thjulykid September 17, 2012 1:16 PM BST
To question the Liverpool version of events now seems to be the equivalent of Holocaust Denial. Thank you for bringing up my previous post. I don't think I would change a word. You will note that I never blamed the victims. I do think they were completely innocent and the responsibility for their deaths lies at the door of various groups.

Big of you not to blame the dead. No proof of drunks( drunken fans ) being let in, and your assertion that no blame could be attached to the authorities other that a flippant remark about social workers was also way off the mark.

Lord Taylor found fault with the authorities, namely SYP and, after discovering further undisclosed evidence so do the Hillsborough Panel, and the victims families.
Report daz55o September 17, 2012 1:18 PM BST
In 1981 after the serious crush swfc were warned about over capacity by the police who had to allow hundreds of fans to the perameters of the pitch.

In a meeting between doug ellis the then chairman of swfc and syp doug ellis blamed syp for allowing fans onto the outside of the pitch and made the ground look untidy the rep for syp reply was i would have done the same over again to prevent the loss of life ..

the chairman of swfc doug ellis was 'BOLLOCKS' 

SWFC were then not to hold a semi final till 87 after ground changes were made the problem was the ground changes which were made for safety reasons did not take into account the extra structures ie crush barriers and therefore the stadium should reduced further reduced the maximum capacity to what was already too high IN TRUTH IN REGARDS OF THE POSSIBITY OF CRUSHING THE STADIUM WAS MORE UNSAFE THAN IN 1981 THE POLICE FAILED TO DISTRIBUTE THE FANS EVENLY ACCROSS THE LENGTH OF THE TERRACE DUE TO POOR DECISION MAKING.

FOR THE ATTENTION OF 4 JULY.............
I TOOK ALL THIS INFORMATION FROM THE HILLSBOROUGH PANEL REPORT WHICH I READ SO NONE OF IT IS MT OPINION IT IS FAC
Report daz55o September 17, 2012 1:18 PM BST
In 1981 after the serious crush swfc were warned about over capacity by the police who had to allow hundreds of fans to the perameters of the pitch.

In a meeting between doug ellis the then chairman of swfc and syp doug ellis blamed syp for allowing fans onto the outside of the pitch and made the ground look untidy the rep for syp reply was i would have done the same over again to prevent the loss of life ..

the chairman of swfc doug ellis was 'BOLLOCKS' 

SWFC were then not to hold a semi final till 87 after ground changes were made the problem was the ground changes which were made for safety reasons did not take into account the extra structures ie crush barriers and therefore the stadium should reduced further reduced the maximum capacity to what was already too high IN TRUTH IN REGARDS OF THE POSSIBITY OF CRUSHING THE STADIUM WAS MORE UNSAFE THAN IN 1981 THE POLICE FAILED TO DISTRIBUTE THE FANS EVENLY ACCROSS THE LENGTH OF THE TERRACE DUE TO POOR DECISION MAKING.

FOR THE ATTENTION OF 4 JULY.............
I TOOK ALL THIS INFORMATION FROM THE HILLSBOROUGH PANEL REPORT WHICH I READ SO NONE OF IT IS MT OPINION IT IS FAC
Report daz55o September 17, 2012 1:30 PM BST
SORRY BEFORE I GET SUED THE NAME OF THE SWFC CHAIRMAN WAS BERT MCGEE GETTING HIM MIXED UP WITH THE ASTO VILLA CHAIRMAN
Report 4thjulykid September 17, 2012 1:31 PM BST
For your information, Taylor had all that is in The Hillsborough Panel report about the ground, before him in his inquiry. FFS, he found the ground not causative. So you can stop telling me about the ground and its failings. I agree with Taylor you do not.
Report daz55o September 17, 2012 1:42 PM BST
can you post a thread without the word causative.. swfc should have headed the advise and got a valid upto date safety certificate and significantly reduced maximum crowd capacity the owners of the club at that time should also be held to account
Report 4thjulykid September 17, 2012 1:47 PM BST
Daz

Do you agree or not agree that Lord Taylor in his enquiry 'the Taylor report' had

1) all the fact about the ground and faults with ?
2) found the venue NOT causative ?
3) found the Leppings Lane End of Hillsborough policable.
4) found 'operational failures by the police' as the cause of the Hillsborough disaster.

Do you also agree that The Hillsborough Panels report was just an expansion of the Taylor report disclosing those facts about the '3.15 cut off', redacting of police statements and the role of the media etc. previously hidden from Tayors at his enquiry?

You keep quoting from the parts of the Hillsborough Panels report ' facts as they were known ' at the time of the disaster. They are not NEW facts the panel discovered, and were already discussed by Taylor in his findings.

Please accept this as my final response to your posts.
Report daz55o September 17, 2012 2:03 PM BST
yes

its you you are wrong on many many things including what the families of the 96 dead have been advised which is:

Legal advisers to the families of the 96 victims of the Hillsborough disaster have called on South Yorkshire police and Sheffield Wednesday Football Club to admit their culpability in order to avoid prolonging their agony if, as expected, a new inquest is ordered.




http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/2012/sep/13/hillsborough-sheffield-wednesday-police-blame?newsfeed=true
Report salmon spray September 17, 2012 2:06 PM BST
I hold absolutely no brief for the SY police or their friend Thatcher. I was totally on the side of the miners in 1984 and found the actions of the Police in that civil dispute quite appalling. I also accept totally that they cocked-up on the day and then tried to cover it up. BUT I think the ground did play a part and nobody will ever convince me that EVERY Liverpool fan present on that day was TOTALLY blameless.
Report daz55o September 17, 2012 2:15 PM BST
thank you salmon

4 july only believes the parts of the report when when they tell him what he wants to hear and ignores all the other parts to pick out the bits he likes to hear if you state sections of the report he says they are not important. In truth hes a very blinkered individual that is not open to debate.
Report daz55o September 17, 2012 2:21 PM BST
anyone in their right mind
Report daz55o September 17, 2012 2:21 PM BST
anyone in their right mind
Report daz55o September 17, 2012 2:21 PM BST
anyone in their right mind
Report 4thjulykid September 17, 2012 2:23 PM BST
its you you are wrong on many many things including what the families of the 96 dead have been advised which is:

Last one promise;

Point out my many many mistakes, not your opinions, stick to facts I have posted and not repeat as to what was already known about the ground and dismissed by Taylor.
As for the request to admit culpability by SWFC requested by the legal advisers to the Hillsborough Group, to save the victims family distress at what will inevitably a new inquest. That does not mean they are guilty . As I said SWFC have already admitted their part in the aftermath and paid compensation. Criminal charges according to the Victims family group, as I said are to be brought against the police, not SWFC as far as I am aware.

Please answer my previous questions.
Report daz55o September 17, 2012 2:25 PM BST
4thjulykid
Date Joined:     09 Jul 08
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17 Sep 12 12:51 Joined: 09 Jul 08 | Topic/replies: 1,484 | Blogger: 4thjulykid's blog
I refuse to keep going over the same old same old to you Daz.

I agree with the Taylor report as quoted in the Hillsborough panels report, as do the Hillsborough Action Group along with the majority of those who have the slightest interest.


BUT ONLY THE CERTAIN BITS IT YOU DONT AGREE THAT THE NUMEROUS STADIUM SAFETY ISSUES PLAYED ANY PART IN THE EVENT WHATSOEVER THIS IS CLEARLY OUTLINED IN THE REPORT
Report errytay September 17, 2012 2:34 PM BST
I have read the Hillsborough Panel Report, and sad it was too.4th is right if you follow the report exactly. If Lord Taylor has all the facts and finds SW fc not guilty of causing the disaster then I beleive him. Daz55o the report lists the grounds faults at the time of the tragedy, it aint a revalation and Lord Taylor knew this. Dont really see why you are refusing to agree he did not blame the ground only the law.
Report daz55o September 17, 2012 2:43 PM BST
the report was clear the club was warned  that maximum capacity  in that section of the stadium was set too high look at the crush in 1981 these issues were never resolved.
Report daz55o September 17, 2012 2:50 PM BST
salmon spray
Date Joined:     10 Jan 07
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17 Sep 12 14:06 Joined: 10 Jan 07 | Topic/replies: 18,091 | Blogger: salmon spray's blog
I  accept totally that they cocked-up on the day 'THE POLICE' and then tried to cover it up. BUT I think the ground did play a part

THE VOICE OF RESON

AMEN
Report daz55o September 17, 2012 4:39 PM BST
4thjulykid 17 Sep 12 13:47 Joined: 09 Jul 08 | Topic/replies: 1,487 | Blogger: 4thjulykid's blog
Daz

Do you agree or not agree that Lord Taylor in his enquiry 'the Taylor report' had

1) all the fact about the ground and faults with ?
2) found the venue NOT causative ?
3) found the Leppings Lane End of Hillsborough policable.
4) found 'operational failures by the police' as the cause of the Hillsborough disaster.


1)  Yes and it did question serious safety issues which were the responsibility of SWFC
2)  nOT CAUSATIVE in the true sense of the word agree but swfc must bear some of the responsibility given the stadium failed safety checks and was critisised for not lowering the maximum capacith in that end of the stadium
3)  Policable i have already answered this one earlier by saying they police made very poor errors of judgement  see my previous threads
4)  they caused the disaster in the sense it would probably have been avoided had they taken different decisions but other factors were at play that came together on that day
Report daz55o September 17, 2012 4:47 PM BST
by the way 4 th july your questions prove you dont read my posts properly because they are all questions that can be answered in my previous posts and my replys are all consistent with them so to avoid repeats of the same questions try and read all my posts before asking further questions as i am a busy person and dont want to answer the same old questions over and over.
Report daz55o September 17, 2012 4:49 PM BST
my replys are also are also consistant with taylor and the panel hilsborough panel findings
Report Java September 17, 2012 5:44 PM BST
"To question the Liverpool version of events now seems to be the equivalent of Holocaust Denial"

It's getting that way, so I don't even both debating the circumstance leading up to the tragedy now.  Especially with fanatics like 4thJulyKid around.
Report daz55o September 17, 2012 7:16 PM BST
java

wished i'd done the same.  cant see the wood from the trees that guy
Report Mister E September 18, 2012 12:03 PM BST
There was deliberate misleading of the public over twenty years that may result in conspiracy charges.

"To question the Liverpool version of events now seems to be the equivalent of Holocaust Denial

Totally ridiculous statement.


Drunks or fighting fans  did not storm the gates and
break them down.

Nobody stole off the dead.

Nobody urinated on the dead.

Nobody fought the police as they were trying to save people or obstructed ambulances.

FWIW
Although the comparison is ridiculous, I think the Holocaust happened.
Report blackburn1 September 18, 2012 2:25 PM BST
Blimey I got top billing in a thread from 4thjuly kid, how flattering.

Read salmon spray at 14.06 yesterday for my view. Of course not every Liverpool fan is a drunken thug but not every SY copper is irresponsible.
Report 4thjulykid September 18, 2012 2:35 PM BST
Read salmon spray at 14.06 yesterday for my view. Of course not every Liverpool fan is a drunken thug but not every SY copper is irresponsible.
Not this then?


blackburn122 Aug 11 08:59Joined: 15 Jan 02 | Topic/replies: 20,239 | Blogger: blackburn1's blog
Nothing to hide re Hillsborough, everyone knows the fault lies with drunken Scouers turning up late with no tickets.

Absolute tragedy, young kids, proper fans, crushed to death by their alleged friends now trying to pass the buck in true Liverpool style.


blackburn122 Aug 11 18:38Joined: 15 Jan 02 | Topic/replies: 20,239 | Blogger: blackburn1's blog
bentley, you obviously never went to many football matches around that time, bara went to Upton Park once on his way to the museum so he's no better

Call me as many names as you like, hold as many enquiries as you like, talk about justice as much as you like, it was Liverpool fans that caused that tragedy.
Report blackburn1 September 18, 2012 2:40 PM BST
Good work 4th, as I said im flattered you mention me in dispatches, you must feel like Murray after getting battered by the big boys for years.

My stance hasn't changed, 99 per cent of the fans that day were completely blameless, likewise the police, c&p my posts about my thoughts for the bereaved, if you think that supports your shrieking hysteria.
Report 4thjulykid September 18, 2012 2:43 PM BST
Thanks for letting us know your stance stays the same.
Report blackburn1 September 18, 2012 2:48 PM BST
No problem, there's dozens of enquiries that go on, then enquiries into the enquiries, then saddos like you spending time trawling through old threads.

We all believe what we want, I happen to believe you're boring and sanctimonious, perhaps we should hold an enquiry.
Report 4thjulykid September 18, 2012 2:52 PM BST
Strangely enough , I have the same ideas about you.
Report blackburn1 September 18, 2012 2:58 PM BST
Good, now go and dredge up something I said ten years ago to back it up, there's a good saddo
Report daz55o September 18, 2012 3:02 PM BST
that particular end of the stadium wHere the fans died was a death trap IN THE FIRST PLACE too many fans tickets were alocated for this match in the fistst place this is supported by the lawyers for the family's of the 96 who died who have looked through all the evidence at have decided they have a legal case for substatial claims against SWFC. can 4 JULY make a comment about this.
Report 4thjulykid September 18, 2012 3:04 PM BST
Actually, you simpleton, it didn't take a lot of dredging, it was posted only last week. Go see if you can blame some drunks for something they didn't do. Ankerway
Report daz55o September 18, 2012 3:10 PM BST
i take that as a no comment. In other words you were totaly wrong in previous post when you ruled out any blame on swfc. And i was right that this report would almost certainly lead to legal action against swfc
Report arsenaldave September 18, 2012 3:11 PM BST
Shame on you Blackburn1 if you cannot at least withdraw the comments you made last year in the light of the findings last week.
Report daz55o September 18, 2012 3:23 PM BST
4th july

i put you in your like you try to do with others but you dont like the taste of you own medicine.
Report daz55o September 18, 2012 3:24 PM BST
4 july
i put you in your place like you try to do with others but you dont like the taste of you own medicine.
Report salmon spray September 18, 2012 5:14 PM BST
How the hell does ANYBODY know whether a few Liverpool urinated on the dead or stole from them. I certainly don't know that they did,but nobody can be sure that they didn't. However you can't say anything like that that without being jumped on by the ( usually sensible ) Mister E it seems. According to him the report ( headed by the no doubt totally unbiased Bishop of Liverpool )is unquestionably correct in every detail. I doubt he felt the same about the Hutton report.
Report blackburn1 September 18, 2012 5:15 PM BST
Who's this arsenaldave saying "shame on you" ffs?

Read what I've posted you simpering fool, they can hold a dozen enquiries but it won't bring back 96 innocent people. Go and wring your hands with 4thjuly and pretend the cheeky scousers played no part in it all.
Report blackburn1 September 18, 2012 5:18 PM BST
salmon, as I've said previously, is the voice of reason in all this. I have to say I'd be flabberghasted if the urinating story is true, but there is a halfway house between 20000 cheeky scallies queueing up with tickets and nonsense printed by the Sun.

Of course, scousers being scousers they wont rest until every Sun reading Tory and policeman is jailed for life.
Report daz55o September 18, 2012 6:17 PM BST
what i will say about the varies reports on hillsborough is there is no clear evidence on how many ticketless fans entered the ground plus i believe fans who should have entered a different part of the ground maybe ended up in that section by mistake. This is not insignificant and has never been properly answered.
Report moisok September 18, 2012 6:41 PM BST
I stood in the middle of hundreds of liverpool fans at the dell a zillion years ago
seemed a real friendly bunch - one was so drunk he couldn't stand up and spent the whole match sat on the terrace with his head in his hands - my wife dressed in white and red(southampton) not a nasty word was said and we enjoyed seeing liverpool run rings round southampton's defence
but there was none of this cramming people into the place  and no fences to be crushed up against
given that hillsborough didn't have a safety certificate for 10 years (is that correct) it is quite clear that opening that gate was surely a fateful thing to do.
Report daz55o September 18, 2012 6:53 PM BST
moisok

not only did it not have a safety  certificte it had been warned numerous time that the maximum capacity was set too high.

It was modified after a crush in 1981 but the ground was actually made more unsafe in regards maximum capacity because they did not allow for the space the crush barriers took up.

in 1981 swfc were warned about this problem of over capacity by police when 40 fans suffered injuries in a similar crush this was why they installed crush barrires.  In 1981 swfc asked why the police had allowed 100s of fans on the parameter of the pitch the police said to avoid deaths. the then SWFC chairman bert mghee replied BOLLOCKS and nothing was ever really solved re possible crushing at future matches.
Report Mister E September 18, 2012 7:39 PM BST
I look at this way salmon spray.

Hours of photographs hours of film and cctv.

if there was a hint of fans urinating on the dead, robbing the dead. attacking police as they tried to save lives.....you would have seen it.


The more feasible myth that fans broke the gate down was perpetrated for as long as possible until cctv proved that was a lie.

The Tory govt. were treating fans like untouchables; the so called "safety" fences left fans vulnerable to fire, structural collapse but they got it in under a myth.


The vile stories instigated by South yorks senior officers, was the shyte the govt. wanted to hear.

I was at a match that day with my 15 year old son; there but for fortune.

It was human error opening that gate; but the subsequent lies, establishment cover up, was deliberate.
Report salmon spray September 18, 2012 8:14 PM BST
I agree with some of the above Mister E. There seems no doubt that the conduct of the operation was very flawed on the day and that there was a cover-up. But I am from Sheffield and I knew that Leppings Lane end quite well.At the risk of being accused of aftertiming I can honestly say it had struck me years before that there could be a problem OUTSIDE the turnstiles,but INSIDE the wall outside the ground,if people started pushing and shoving. I know two people who claim that's what they saw that day.They were not police or connected to the club. A friend who was a steward was on the other end before the4thJuly quotes earlier posts of mine. They were never called to give evidence to anybody. I DO agree that whate
ver the cause of the problem it was the idea that you had to fence these people in which caused what might have been just a nasty incident into carnage.
Report daz55o September 18, 2012 8:20 PM BST
salmon spray

someone has actually put a post on here that i agree with entirely well put. Itoo have stood on the lepping lane end   once i might had never again a most unpleasant experience anytime i went to hillsborough thereafter i allway either went in the kop end or the then called uncovered seats which were far more comfortable
Report daz55o September 18, 2012 8:22 PM BST
i was only a kid at the time so i couldnt afford the full price seats but the cramming to the seems in the leppings lane end was very evident this was around 4 or 5 years before the hillsborough disaster
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