How random is the Ongame RNG ?

correct.
on ongame, each streetscard is decided as soon as last action click has taken place.

Short of them launching some wonderful new promotion not aimed at cheats, I cant see me playing on here again. Trust the site about as far as I could kick it i.e. not very far. My sympathy to anyone still playing on it.

seriously the mods should just shove all these threads together like they do on two plus two.

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/28/internet-poker/great-poker-****-debate-collected-threads-edition-255990/

I think you just have to accept that variance happens or you'd end up going crazy. 

Given the serious downswing I have had the last year or so, I would be within my rights to join the nutter bus.

The thing ive noticed in the 6 years of playing online poker is this (and this btw includes ALL sites ive played on, not just Ongame). I am a steady winner at a lot of sites and a slight loser a couple of sites and i know ppl talk about varience in poker which is fine, however, there comes a time when ur having a good few days, weeks even where ur consistently winning when all of a sudden a period in which u cant do anything right comes along and consistently batters you. I mean what im saying is no matter what u do, how far ahead u are after the chips are in, ur opponent will hit the miracle cards every and i mean EVERY time and this happens for a few days. Now, ppl will probably reply to this and say duh, yes thats varience, but it isnt. Varience is levelled out over the course of u playing, not a set period where every hand u get ****g shafted for days and thats what ive experienced time n time again in my 6 years of playing. Coincidence? I dont think so somehow!

Mmm, another one of my posts deleted overnight by the mods, well I never.

3 simple questions Betfair :

1) Have Ongame caught any players cheating in the last 6 months ?

2) Were they banned ?

3) Were the players they cheated against ( and it's us they cheat not the site ) refunded entry fees in games they played against cheats ?

Every other site in the world would answer simple, basic, security questions like these. Betfair presumably will delete the question. One has to wonder why.

So they leave the posts accusing them of cheating, but remove the ones accusing other of cheating.  Odd when you think about it.

So many players with the same issues and betfair do nothing. Should not supprise us though with the track record this mob are starting to put together.This site has no policy on chat no policy on cheating no policy on software issues ect ect.seems that they have a policy on what betfair customers write and post about them (something I suppose)And as for it's RNG for months now have been dealt nothing but j8-j2 always in same certain table postions and just about certain to see it in my blinds ( over 30% in every tour every day. The SMD is always over and never under... just gets silly :) )

Even as a winning player I have asked JC30's question to myself.

Always seems odd that run good and run bad come in batches so. Very rare im thinking to myself I am running ok here for any period of time. Always seems to be running like jesus or running like the fat bird from the 1st xfactor.

But meh...equally ****/juiced for everyone imo

Collusion in d2ns occurs on all sites. Even stars and ftilt have come clean and stated publicly they have caught cheats , have refunded the victims, and put in place measures to stop it happening. Some sites have scrapped them ( d2n )altogether.

The old d2n is STILL the most popular stt on ongame , who apparently have never caught anyone colluding. Or using illegal software. Or account sharing.

Never mind, your money is safe with betfair. Or so they keep telling us. [;)]

some valid points above, I certainly agree with RoyKeane about it being juiced for everyone, my point wasn't that it just me just that the software at times was so predictable, it is affecting my play now, as I'm calling out of curiousity just to prove myself right, so got to put a stop to that as I have around 95% record of being right and the same rate on missing the every increasing odds of hitting .

Anyway how about this one from a small SNG

PRE-FLOP
Minouee calls 20, Poker.9 calls 20, hero folds, Andrewboy84 calls 20, enz_0 folds, aticube calls 20, BTZ75 calls 20, poolman81 calls 20, -VIT0- checks.

FLOP [board cards: 3C,4D,6H ]
poolman81 bets 1,510 and is all-in, -VIT0- folds, Minouee calls 1,400 and is all-in, Poker.9 calls 1,320 and is all-in, Andrewboy84 raises to 1,660 and is all-in, aticube folds, BTZ75 folds.

TURN [board cards: 3C,4D,6H,7S ]


RIVER [board cards: 3C,4D,6H,7S,AH ]


SHOWDOWN
Andrewboy84 shows [ 3H,3S ]
poolman81 shows [ 4C,6C ]
Minouee shows [ 6D,6S ]
Poker.9 shows [ 5C,5S ]

chip, I don't think ft have ever had d2ns?

We can see why...cheats paradise.

I did reply last night turtleshead, but yet again my post has been deleted by the betfair moderators, despite breaking none of their rules and being factually accurate. The bulk of my post simply re-hashed something which appeared in Poker Player magazine. I wish they were as quick to reply to my e-mails.

What they are doing is essentially censorship. Another reason why I quit this truly pisspoor excuse for a poker site.

Do you get paid every time you have a post deleted, you'd be making a fortune if so

Ive had enough and money has been withdrawn.

I've no problems with the betting exchange but the poker software is not "fair" at all. The software is proper juiced to give everyone still in the hand once theyve called a sweat. Its unreal. And then the amount of one/two/three outers that hit on the river, ridiculous.

Its pointless getting frustrated and angry over it any more.

ciao

everyone is allowed an opinion . I believe that betfair software is not true .
But they are the the power , we have no way of proving anything what they get up . There is no one to police them . Anyone who believes otherwise in my opinion has got it wrong . They may be true , but it is near impossible to prove either way , lol , we have to put up , and shut up

It runs in cycles.  The RNg is a simulation of randomness.   The SW is designed to give all an equal chance.  Play your cards and stick to them when your time comes round you'll do well. ;-)
When you are on a low you won't win if you are the best player in the wolrd as it's impossible.

Same on all sites.

the reply that struck most for me was ROys.....ive played mostly on the magic sign site since it started and the biggest difference now from previously is that i either run on a ridiculous heater or just cant win a pot on any table....this doesnt equate......with standard variance playin 6 tables as is my norm it defies all probability that im either simultaneously runnin hot or cold on every table at the same time..

/\ It's cycles.  You will run hot then cold.  It simulates randomness but it does it in cycles, don't know why, maybe it was just easier to write SW this way. 
A trully random game would produce periods of up and periods of down but they would change and be unpredictable. Varying in lengnth and time.  They would not simply just start then stop then start again and so on.
I go thru months of really ridiculously bad cards.  I then have a short but successful period of great hands.
I look on the low times as saving up good beats for when the cards change.

/\ It's cycles.  You will run hot then cold.  It simulates randomness but it does it in cycles, don't know why, maybe it was just easier to write SW this way.
A trully random game would produce periods of up and periods of down but they would change and be unpredictable. Varying in lengnth and time.  They would not simply just start then stop then start again and so on.
I go thru months of really ridiculously bad cards.  I then have a short but successful period of great hands.
I look on the low times as saving up good beats for when the cards change.

and you probably tell other people that there is skill involved in poker[;)]

Very little skill required in online poker.  Play specific hand s and only those hands and you cant go wrong. ;-)  A basic knowledge of game play and a bit of craft.

So how do you explain how some winning players don't seem to experience any horrible losing downswings that don't go on for months - like I have had? Look at players graphs on Sharkscope such as __dp__ & GHADAFFI then have a look at mine rockme. They seem to be going either up or sideways while I'm either going straight up or down at a 45 degree angle - or between games 500-1500 a 75 dgree angle and a loss of $7500. They must be just be better players or is the rng biased towrds them? That __dp__ did win a coinflip GSOP package so maybe it is.

Why dont you guys invest is some tracking software build up a big sample and then see what you think.

Because it's pretty much as JC says. I've only played ongame and BF poker1 and it's exactly as he says - horrendous losing runs where you just cannot do a thing right, which go on for ever, but from reading posts on other forums it's probably the same for every site and in my opinion just varience. Ask yourself this? Do you think you've likely to have experienced your worst ever poker run and best ever win? I would like to think the answer to the first is yes and the second is no, but probably it's both no.

Well JC says that when he runs bad the villain hits a miracle card against him EVERY time and he means EVERY time. Obviously thats not true, all i'm sayin is that with HEM or PT you can get to the truth. Surely thats got to be better than thinking you're being cheated by the site every time you sit down.

Re winning players.  Like every form of gambling you have to have them to intice others.  How they are chosen I don't know.

There is always the possibility that the SW is readable in some way.

Very informative thread guys, well argued points and giving substance to my own niggling suspicions, and I've been on here since Betfair was just another fledgling online prop. Thing is, I can't work out where to play elsewhere, and am thinking of joining the live games, which seem to be on the up and up in the regional casinos. I played at FTP for quite a while and am staggered that there are still millions of dollars tied up in players accounts. I kinda thought you could trust the guys behind that site...

When you have doubts about the honesty of the games you are playing it definitely affects your decision making process. And garybet knows what I'm talking about here as he helped me come to a decision that saved me pouring money into a deep,deep, pit of sh1t.

All of those players have vanished by the way mate. Either that or they are using new usernames. Either way if you have doubts best thing is to move to another site. Theres plenty of em out there.

All ill say is this. Online poker no matter what anyone says is not 100% random. At the end of the day, its a business for these sites and to keep businesses going they need to consistently keep hitting profit targets just like any other business does or it could go bust. I dont know how they do it ( well nobody does obviously), but it is definately manipulated. They earn their money through rake so ideally they want to keep as many ppl playing consistently. At the end of the day, its no good to them to see fish after fish get busted, they want to keep the money circulating. As for the RNG, there is no such thing as a random number generator anywhere in the world, nothing is that clever to keep picking random numbers for ever. The RNGs you see in online poker, on FOBTs in bookies etc is a program, a random number generated program where theres is thousands upon thousands of sequences, and where you have a RNG program, you have an opportunity to manipulate.

i agree with all off the above its eithier going in ur favour or not no matter how well u play.
and most times its the river cards that come.
no matter how well u played a hand.
its iether the underdog too win or the donk u know that calls most hands and ur beating him till the river
its good when running well but horrendus when running bad.
and i am sure the software can do random hands just depends on the specifics

e.g
Start hand: Fri Jun 03 23:37:32 BST 2011
Table: Table #13 [148498249] (NO_LIMIT TEXAS_HOLDEM 40/80, Chips)
User: JoKeR373x
Button: seat 1
Players in round: 6
Seat 1: stoupan (4330)
Seat 2: johnkevr (2790)
Seat 4: wienerberg1 (2175)
Seat 6: MKAFE (4670)
Seat 9: JoKeR373x (1815)
Seat 10: juan1979_x (1730)
johnkevr posts small blind (40)
wienerberg1 posts big blind (80)
---
Dealing pocket cards
Dealing to JoKeR373x: [Ad, Ah]
MKAFE calls 80
JoKeR373x raises 240 to 240
juan1979_x folds
stoupan folds
johnkevr folds
wienerberg1 folds
MKAFE calls 160
--- Dealing flop [9d, 8h, As]
MKAFE checks
JoKeR373x bets 320
MKAFE calls 320
--- Dealing turn [Kd]
MKAFE bets 1240
JoKeR373x raises 1255 to 1255 [all in]
MKAFE calls 15
--- Dealing river [Qd]
---
Summary:
Main pot: 3750 won by MKAFE (3750)
Rake taken: $0
Seat 1: stoupan (4330)
Seat 2: johnkevr (2750), net: -40
Seat 4: wienerberg1 (2095), net: -80
Seat 6: MKAFE (6605), net: +1935, [Td, Jd] (STRAIGHT_FLUSH KING)
Seat 9: JoKeR373x (0), net: -1815, [Ad, Ah] (THREE_OF_A_KIND ACE)
Seat 10: juan1979_x (1730)
***** End of hand T5-148498249-27 *****

@JC..I've been playing poker live and online for years.  They BOTH pull out crazy cards you wont imagine.  Most of my bad bad beats have been in live poker.  Even though I play online mainly.

Those that complain about RNG, just need to look at their play and see how BAD it is.  I'm guilty as the next one of making bad choices and also good choices (and still being beaten).

To be honest I found Ongame a very very fishy network, players below 50c/$1 are  some of the worse players I have seen in my life of online poker.

By: This user is offline. Godfather77 Date Joined: 19 Apr 07
Add contact When: 04 Jun 11 07:22 @JC..I've been playing poker live and online for years.  They BOTH pull out crazy cards you wont imagine.  Most of my bad bad beats have been in live poker.  Even though I play online mainly.

Those that complain about RNG, just need to look at their play and see how BAD it is.  I'm guilty as the next one of making bad choices and also good choices (and still being beaten).


The point of this thread was the randomness of the RNG.  Your mention of Bad play is the normal s hit thats posted.  Even the best of play can get dumped and when it's a regular occurance you start to wonder.

The point was it happens in patterns.  Great/good luck then Great/Bad luck.  This is not random.  Randomness throws up varying patterns of both good and bad including long periods of both but not excluding short and intermitent periods of both.
The SW simulates randomness but does not give actual randomness.  This is the same on ALL sites.

Godfather77
Date Joined: 19 Apr 07 Add contact | Send message
When: 04 Jun 11 07:22 Joined: Date Joined: 19 Apr 07 | Topic/replies: 27 | Blogger: Godfather77's blog
Those that complain about RNG, just need to look at their play and see how BAD it is.  I'm guilty as the next one of making bad choices and also good choices (and still being beaten).

I would also like to ask why you presume that all people who question RNGs are either losing or bad players?  I am up a few grand on the year and have a Sharscope rating of 76. 
I don't play Betfair but have/do play most other sites.
I'll ad that I don't play cash only Tournys so my obeservations are on only Tournys.

I have played online for years and without doubt the RNGs are juiced. Action = rake. Simple.

And I concur with hearts, whilst we all make bad mistakes you can almost predict some rivers judging by what hits the turn. Vairance is inevitable in poker but the runs some players seem to go on defy belief (in terms of constant suck outs & success).

BTW my Scope rating is 97 so I am not talking out my pocket.

dodnt EVER play on this site

Its just bingo.Some people know when their hands will win.

For example......

.
***** History for hand R5-148923033-622 *****
Start hand: Sun Jun 05 01:45:53 BST 2011
Table: Freetown [148923033] (LIMIT TEXAS_HOLDEM $5/$10, Real money)
User: Zooport
Button: seat 6
Players in round: 5
Seat 3: Misha63 ($57.25)
Seat 4: LadyWriter79 ($322.50)
Seat 5: MrCaliban ($836.50)
Seat 6: Zooport ($655.75)
Seat 7: DieselDon08 ($885)
DieselDon08 posts small blind ($2.50)
Misha63 posts big blind ($5)
---
Dealing pocket cards
Dealing to Zooport: [5d, 5s]
LadyWriter79 folds
MrCaliban calls $5
Zooport raises $10 to $10
DieselDon08 raises $12.50 to $15
Misha63 folds
MrCaliban folds
Zooport calls $5
--- Dealing flop [Tc, 5h, 6h]
DieselDon08 bets $5
Zooport raises $10 to $10
DieselDon08 raises $10 to $15
Zooport raises $10 to $20
DieselDon08 raises $10 to $25
Zooport raises $10 to $30
DieselDon08 raises $10 to $35
Zooport calls $5
--- Dealing turn [3h]
DieselDon08 bets $10
Zooport calls $10
--- Dealing river [4h]
DieselDon08 bets $10
Zooport calls $10
---
Summary:
Main pot: $150 won by DieselDon08 ($147)
Rake taken: $3
Seat 3: Misha63 ($52.25), net: -$5
Seat 4: LadyWriter79 ($322.50)
Seat 5: MrCaliban ($831.50), net: -$5
Seat 6: Zooport ($585.75), net: -$70
Seat 7: DieselDon08 ($962), net: +$77, [Ad, Qh] (FLUSH QUEEN)


I have accepted that I have the same chance of winning at poker as I do of winning on a fruit machine.