Hand on the bubble in CC

this close to the bubble, I'm looking to get into the money before I start taking any risk especially against stack that have me covered.  It does depend on the type of player you are though, as in you may not be interested in min cashes and see this as a good oportunity to double up and make progress while others are limp/folding into the money. 

If you check flop button will try and steal the pot... its not his tourney at risk.  You dont have correct pot odds or implied odds to call here if you think villain has Qx or 7>10.  Unless you have a strong read on villain bluffing (and I can't see how that would be possible) you should fold as there is a high risk of ruin in chasing.

I think you have to shove. You are prob evens against a Q and even against 2 better diamonds you are a slight fav.

Button should be betting with atc there but you don't want to flat call because your hand isn't really made, so you want the opp out of the pot.

Don't raise with marginal hands if you are not prepared to play them.   That flop is about as good as it gets for 7dTd. 

In the CC you need final table finish to get any $ worth having.   I prob check-jam after factoring in my table image and buttons stack (was it mega stack or say 30-40K stack where a 12k hit is not wanted?) ... if he calls you are marginal favourite Vs QJ/QT type of hands but a large stack button bet has air a big % of the time.... so I'd price it more like 75% with the fold equity fav... check-jam

I wouldn't have bothered checking and would have just open shoved on the flop, your happy if they fold and not unhappy if they call unless they have a better flush draw. 

But as Wonky says what the hell sort of flop were u hoping for?

If you want to win tourneys you have to be willing to bubble sometimes.

I know I am in the minority, but if I am close to the bubble and I know I can cash by taking no risks I don't even consider playing marginal hands like T7. I certainly don't want to put my tourney on the line by shoving a flush draw at this stage.

I accept that I am possibly giving up some EV close to the bubble but personally I would always rather cash with a slightly reduced chance of winning outright than do all the work getting down to the last 220 and end up with nothing for it. You could see it as exchanging some value for less overall variance in my bankroll.

jam all in with a big smile on your face,u hit a dream flop,folding and calling not an option.

For me it was the easiest shove I've ever made but thought I'd seek other opinions. I wasnt too worried about the mini cash which is barely the buy in!

In this spot nothing crushes me and I had enough to make him fold (he started the hand with about 28k). My worst scenario is a set but like wonky said he has air in that spot a fair amount of the time and he can’t have a better pair and a flush draw combo because I paired the only non diamond. Worst case scenario he has a made hand or a bigger flush draw neither of which crush me. By check raising all in (rather than shoving) I win another bet when he has air.

In any case I shoved over his bet, he call with Jd8d meaning we were an exactly 50/50. He spikes a diamond on the turn and I'm have to do the washing up while he goes on to win the tourny for 38k! I like the play would have put me in the top 20 and a real shot at going deep

so after all that you made the wrong call.

I suggest you read it again!

or stick to nonsense like 'top 3 horror films' and 'muslim man beheads himself' - dope!

i suggest you read it again ,7d 10d you answer the question yourself, how on earth did you make it so far ,the only shove to me made ,was you out the door ,"oh sorry ,so you was.amazes me how you think your play was  correct .sad loser who can't accept honnest criticism ,what did you expect ffs

Are you serious? Just from your last comment alone I know you are a losing player. Toddle along now and pick a new topic to make yourself look stupid on!

the initial raise is a virtual invitation to the button and the blinds to play the hand.  the button could probably play the hand more aggressively pre,as could you, but other than that it's all pretty standard.

wonky and thrappers have pretty much said all that  needs to be said. fwiw i'm also all in, rather than check/calling.

i probably bubble more than most on here, mainly cos -DP- keeps hitting one outers on the river, however im with wonky, its marginal so no raise, then no decision. if ur raising make it worth while cos as chip says u will get called for that amount and once u hit ur flop ur all in, so for me - marginal hand = fold or bigger raise.

Ref the comments on the raise ammount... if ur open raising a lot you don't want it much more than 1100 but agree 1100 is a tad light

Just from your last comment alone I know you are a losing player.

My short but brief reply was correct ! was it not ?
poker is a very simple card  game imo   read your original post , what is it you asked ? and what is it you did'nt understand ? you played the hand incorrectly ,thats why you lost and will more than likely  continue to lose .Thats why you asked for advise. you get advise ,dont take it on board tilt with your childish comments and sound like you will be joining the "bye bye betfair poker brigade " very soon . you could always try f/tilt



oh and it made you laugh did'nt it

Aveit, if your view is never raise marginal hands and fold into the money then good luck. FYI im in profit over $100k playing on ongame under various alias' so I doubt I'll be joining the bye bye brigade any time soon.

Wonky the raise may have been slightly more, I tend to raise anywhere from 2x - 2.5x bb deep in tournys. The big stack wasn't playing much and when he did was straightforward (or so I thought). Both blinds were tight had reasonable stacks and judging by their stats were happy to fold into the cash. If I thought the big stack would play back/call more I fold but he was very average (before winning the cc his largest win on OPR was $350!!)

I open raise to 1100 from hijack with 7d10d into medium stacks in the blinds.

What does that mean? TIA.

yes, i dont think annette would be letting you raise to 1100 if she had the big stack.

the only reason i would bet slightly more from your position pre, is that 1100 is an open invitation to the button and blinds to see the flop, and i personally wouldn't want to be playing aa or kk 4 handed.

if the big stack wasnt playing many hands, i may even bet 1500 and be happy to pick up the  blinds and antes which increases your stack by 10% without having to play  the flop  against the biggie who has position. you would be betting 1500 to win 1250, which at that stage with passive players in the blinds looks reasonable.

McCoy as long as ur post is not a bite and if it is i bit. Hijack is the position before the button,  i may be wrong but thats as i understand it. In bolton someone said it was 2 before and the called one before the button the cut off, but it caused some discussion and disagreement.

As far as I am aware (Da..)the person at bolton was spot on..

UTG >> BB >> SB >> Button >> CO >> HJ

And on a 5 handed table UTG has some identity issues

or in 10 handed UTG. UTG+1. EARLY POS. MID POS. LATE POS. HJ. CO. BUTTON, SB, BB as per a poker tv program i was watching earlier

oh and even then there was somebody arguing that this terminology is a load of bolox

Yeah, it is fine.

The prelfop raise size is fine. I tend to make it a big bigger - say 1200 but 1100 is fine as it is often too significant a % of their stack to call. Don't make it 1500 as when they shove you lose more.

On the flop I probbaly lead/get it in but thinking about it c/r all in is better. It depends if the lasty to act is an aggressive player who can be relied upon to bet.

Obviously this is a cooler.

Thanks Alex, I wasn't fishing. Had an idea what it was but wasn't sure.

yes, i dont think annette would be letting you raise to 1100 if she had the big stack.

All the top players do very small raises prelfop. It used to be 2.5 then lowered to 2.2 but I was playign the stars 33$ 2r1addon (thinly veiled I ship a mtt post!) and ended up on soem hellish table with NeverScaredB and 2 other players with 100k$+ winnings in the last 3 months who were all mini raising.

I still don't get it. I mean it's not an uber aggressive cash game its an MTT approaching the bubble. Since when did raising out of position with T 7 suited become an EV+ play. HU against any 2 random cards you are only 50.7% chance to win, against 2 opponents it becomes 33%.

Once you have made your move after the flop maybe shoving is your best option, but you have just dug a hole for yourself in the first place where you are tossing for your tournament life when you don't need to. Surely its better to wait for a better spot than that to give yourself a chance to double up or steal blinds?

That wasn't the question though. As Wonky said, the flop couldn't have been much better and under the circumstances with me 1st to act I think I would of just shoved it all in.

On the big stack I'm assuming that not so big that a shove will hurt.

Happy with a check to induce bet on that flop and shove. Knowing that having played hand in the first place and flop as good as it hoped for I'd call a shove from big stack too (having made the same read that you had).

But I'm not a player that would play this tourney unless I'd won a seat in a Sat.

Good post - nice thread.

Why would you not raise preflop? Unless you have a nuts image and are therefore likely to get played back against a ton or vs stations who will never ever pass this seems pretty good. This is an mtt and therefore we shouldalways be looking for blind steal spots.

What is the buy in for this?

james beckton writes :

yes, i dont think annette would be letting you raise to 1100 if she had the big stack.

All the top players do very small raises prelfop. It used to be 2.5 then lowered to 2.2 but I was playign the stars 33$ 2r1addon (thinly veiled I ship a mtt post!) and ended up on soem hellish table with NeverScaredB and 2 other players with 100k$+ winnings in the last 3 months who were all mini raising

could you possibly be any more patronising these days ?

i wasnt talking about the pre-flop bet, i was talking about how the button reacted/played the hand. i was simply pointing out that a good player with the chip lead approaching the bubble wouldnt tolerate players min raising with 7 10 for very long, if at all.

how often does betting 1100 into a pot of 1250, with 4 still to act including the chip leader, steal the blinds these days ?

yr either getting re-raised, or playing the hand vs 2/3 opponents.

fwiw, im all in pre from the big blind with 90% of my hands.

The raise size is fine, the other play is fine, though I am probably bet calling the flop for disguise.

I don't know how anybody could complain about someone else been patronising after effectively implying that Annette plays just like them...

Beckton has a point, something around 1100 is absolutely standard on st ars these days.  I guess you'd only increase it because ongame is fishier.

I'm not being patronising; I am merely pointing out that top online players were miniraising and their bets were often getting tnhrough preflop. The only reason you woukd raise more is if there is some idiot in the bb who defends stupidly light, and then it would probably just be a better idea not to raise at all.

Why would you ship 90% of your hands here when this may have been one of the first times they have stepped mildly out of line? Seems like burning money to me. Just because someone has raised a small amount does not mean they have got a weak hand!

Is staggering that with these stack sizes you managed to get 2 callers!

i haven't said i play like annette. if i did i wouldn't be posting on this forum. my words were " i dont think " and were based on my observations. i dont see many top players calling when they have the big stack, most are constantly putting opponents under pressure. but hey, that's just my observation.

as can been seen on this thread there are those who state " this is how i would play it " and those who state " this is how it should be played " when in reality none bar the original poster were at the table, and therefore have sufficent information about their opponents to give a definitive answer.

i have said if i thought a raise to 1500 was more likely to take the pot pre-flop i may bet that much. then again i may not. my actions are determined by a great many things.

as for my play from the bb, my thinking is thus :

the blinds are 250/500/50. after paying the bb i have 8k or effectively 8bbs. by the time it gets to me there is 3450 in the pot. according to the op my image is weak. if i shove my 8k in there and then, i have sufficent fold equity to put both the original raiser and the button in a difficult spot. if they fold i inrease my stack by 45% and have an average holding. if they call i'm hoping i have 2 live cards.

not sure you get too many better spots to steal than this. as it turns out your bet gets through.

I am not saying a resteal here is neccesarily bad but to say you would do it with 90% of your hands including hands which have little equity simply because the opener made it 1100 seems perverse to say the least, especially when you imply you would fold if they made it 1500! If you are vs a frequent lazte position opener and you think they will fold a lot of the time then ofc go ahead and stick ti in, but at least do it based on some read rather than 'oh they made it small, they must have nothing.'

You should atually be more inclined to steal if they make it bigger as there are more chips in the pot.

i said i would bet 1500 if i thought i could get ALL of the 4 people still to act to fold. the problem with betting 1100 is that if the cut off call he drags the button with him, and if the blinds dont feel tempted to steal at that point, they are certainly getting value to see the flop.

seeing a flop 4/5 handed with 7/10 isn't the worst thing in the world,but yr then hoping for a miracle flop. yr folding if someone shoves pre, and barring a miracle flop folding post flop. which all looks spewy to me.

the other problem with a standard 1100 bet is what do you do from the hijack when it folds round to you and you are staring at aa or kk ? bet 1100 and hope it induces a shove, but risk playing it 4 handed ?

and yes , perhaps 90% is an exaggeration, but not by much. if the OP is happy to play 7/10 from out of position against the big stack at the table he isn't exactly nitty norman, and i'd like to think i'd have noticed it. i also like the shove because the flat call from the big stack suggests he has a hand he isnt madly in love with but  will happily see a cheap flop from position with.

i think the play is fine.
i dont know what the b/i is for this multti but presume its medium stakes.
to win or f/t you need to play these types of hands near bubble.
as mentioned by another poster theres little poinf creeping into the money as a long term stategy u will
lose money doing this unless obviously u one your seat in a sat.

The problem with bettign 1500 though rather than 11-1250 is that a decent % of the tiem you will get shoved on and be forced to fold.

When you get shipped on and you ahve made it 1500 preflop, you need a much, much higher percentage of preflop folds for this to be a profitable play. Furthermore if you make it 1500 and have been shown to be foldign to ships then people are much more liekly to shove due to the added money in the pot.

Usually when the blinds get this high too most players will have an inkling of what they are doign and therefore will not be flatting much. Usually they will be 3bet jamming or folding. It would be really unlikely that in the later stages of a mtt that a small raise like this would get 3 callers. Even if it gets a couple of callers, you will usually have posiiton on everyone and can take it down with a smallish bet postflop.

i  said i MIGHT even bet 1500 sometimes IF I  THOUGHT i could get everyone to fold, but would normally bet SLIGHTLY more than 1100 with four to act.

mind you it must be nearly a decade since i last cashed in a mtt.

So "annette" pushes 90% of the time, yet you raise 1500 instead of 1100? 

Seriously, OP has sat at the table so should know if the player on his left is pushing any two cards 90% of the time within a handful of hands.

As the hand played out, then the player on his left clearly isn't the type who raises any two to punish.

Either way all play in this hand is fine and pretty standard.

/thread

whatever doobs. i bow, as ever, to your greater wisdom and experience of playing uber high stake mtts every hour god sends so superbly. 

as previously stated, i very rarely play them these days as i have other priorities. my kids for a start.

Fair cop then? 

I assumed you'd have known that sharkscope records the days people play before you started lobbing those bricks round that glass house of yours.

okay einstein, when was the last time i played more than 3 mtts in a month ? apart from the odd apat league game i think i've probably played about a dozen in the last 6 months, and pretty much all of those will have been community games.

i havent paid more than 500 bucks rake in a month for at least 6 months, which means i'm averaging about 10 stts a day, every last one of them a turbo lasting on average 20 minutes. probably less with my current success rate.

given i dont have a day job, i'd say i spend comparitively little of my time playing poker.

Ooh sensitive

no day job .. obv a drain on society then

Sorry could not resist.

got made redundant last year. got decent payout. after 10 years working in a dull job fancied a break. done some bits and pieces here and there. currently fortunate enough to be able to get by working part-time, mostly from home, and picking up £50 a week playing poker. eldest daughter is at uni now so only got her sister to keep, and like me she dont want for much.

did initially think about playing poker full-time, but quit after a  month despite being a grand in front, because  i was bored rigid, and i hate being indoors during the summer. given thechoice between playing golf badly and playing poker badly on a nice day it'sa no brainer really. i've always said i've got a lot of respect for the grinders like gnasher that can put in 60 hours a week at the tables. its  not something i could do.