What's on your Mind 7th September?

How has the introduction of the essence system to calculate the distribution of rake affected the money Betfair pays out in rakeback in bonuses i.e. has the total money in rakeback and bonuses Betfair pays out decreased, stayed the same or increased in total.

Thanks

Poolio wrote

Thanks for your answer. I have 2 brief questions re: the new software;

1) Will waiting lists be introduced? If you multi-table it is almost impossible to play properly without them and it is frustrating, it is fastest finger first to sit down at a table when somebody leaves. I read previously that OnGame said waiting lists stop people starting new tables but I think a common-sense compromise would be to have waiting lists restricted to a certain number of people and also to limit the number of tables a player can wait for.

2) Will player location be displayed ever? Will any player search facility ever be incorporated into the software?

The above issues (excluding player location) are the simple software issues that have caused me to stop playing on betfair and I am sure many other players feel waiting lists are needed and some kind of search player facility would be handy.

The main issue though is the ESSENCE rakeback system which I am sure many people will ask about. Can you explain how it works? If you don't know then please say so as that will be better than ignoring questions and/or attempting to blag an answer Wink

beat me to it betfairpokerpr, i was just about to copy and paste..

With regards to font size this is a problem that a few of our customers have experienced and as such we are going to raise this with the Ongame Network so they can hopefully put it in their next update. As soon as we have news on this we will inform the forum.

What changes to the software, if any, are planned for THIS year.

With regards to the Essence rakeback, I haven't read about it in detail but the implication seems to be that winning players contribute more to the rake effectively paying some of the losing player's share. Therefore would I be right to assume that a winning player will get more rakeback now as they are paying more rake per pot?

Poolie both players still pay the same amount of rake but the losing players get a greater share of the rake recorded as payed by them and winning players get a smaller share recorded as payed by them, therefore winning players get less rakeback and bonuses than losing players for the same amount of rake payed.

rivered, it will be useful to see some kind of scale then and how extreme it is i.e what % the best and worst types of player are recorded to have paid.

rivered 07 Sep 10 18:40 

How has the introduction of the essence system to calculate the distribution of rake affected the money Betfair pays out in rakeback in bonuses i.e.has the total money in rakeback and bonuses Betfair pays out decreased, stayed the same or increased in total.

Thanks

Hi rivered,

The single biggest effect on rake and hence bonuses related to rake is without doubt the move to a completely different environment. The type and availability of games, the number of players, etc.means the overall set up has changed significantly.

To answer your question though, as a percentage of total rake we are paying out very similar levels of rakeback to our pre-migration levels. If you include bonuses and loyalty in to the equation then we are paying out significantly more to players now.

The effect of essence towards this is probably minimal as there are both winning and losing rakeback players, therefore they tend to level each other out.

Our objective is to give as much value back to players as possible however this is a very significant factor.

When you had the previous session I listed loads of things I, and others, did not like about the new site - but to my knowledge none of them have been changed. 

I could list loads of things this site is lacking in, but as you ignored the previous one I will just concentrate on those I find most important.

I would rather you concentrated on other posters replies, because I am only a small stakes punter and their grievances are more important than mine.  But then again it is us small stakes punters that feed them 

FIND PLAYER

I like to know whether I am sitting at a table with a someone who multi tables, but now I cannot find that information out.  It is also annoying that I cannot find a few chums I had on old betfair.

WAITING LISTS

I like pot limit and fixed limit and there are not a lot of tables there.  So I have to sit waiting until there is a vacancy and then usually when I have clicked the table someone has got in before me.  If you will not bring it in for n/l at least think about it for those games that do not have many tables.

7 MAX IN ADDITION TO 5 MAX
 
5 max breaks down too quickly.  I am forever sitting at tables and immediately it has become 4 max and then goes down to 3 max etc and then breaks down completely.  7/8 max would allow for players sitting out etc and leaving the table.

NOTES

It is appalling that one of the most essential things to have on a site is rubbish.  You start to post a note and it stops you, because of an action.  Betfair 1 did not do that and my other site does not either.  If you are playing short handed, like me, it is almost all the time that you cannot type a note, most frustrating

ESSENCE

I have asked about this several times in emails but to no avail and lots of others have had no joy either.  All we get is that more goes to losing players and less to winning players, but EXACTLY WHAT HAPPENS?  You talk about public relations but do you realise how this looks to betfair's customers?  All other  site list whether they have contributed or dealt systems and you know where you stand, but not betfair.

2000 STARTING STACKS ON SNGS

We have asked right from the beginning that we have at least some 2000 stacks, like old betfair, but this has still not been done six weeks later.  I cannot understand why they are almost all 1500 starting stacks, surely it would be quite simple to arrange a few 2000 stacks?




SEPERATE ACCOUNTS FOR POKER

Why cannot we see how much we have won or lost at poker.  I can find out exactly what I have won or lost at horseracing, football etc but not poker.  Surely it should be seperate from sports betfair?


AGAIN, PLEASE REPLY TO OTHER POSTERS QUESTIONS OVER MINE - THIS IS FOR YOUR INFORMATION.

If my memory serves me right the change to Ongame was about 6 weeks ago.
In that period the promotions team have not been able to calculate the MTT leaderboard.
That in itself is a poor effort, but not a disaster.
What I find inexplicable is that every day completely different and obviously wrong leaderboards were put on display.
Countless emails were sent complaining about it
My question is this : Where were the people in charge who

A.)Did not intefere and stopped the leaderboards being published until proven correct and

B.)Communicate with the frusrated players in order to placate them?

Dear Senior Management,

I'm in dire straits, want to stay at betfair but i'm expieriencing problems far beyond reasonable, please contact me, i cant play on like this at betfair, losing my passion for the game. i got recommended to betfair 3 months ago by people who now tell me to leave betfair, they say problems started since the change to betfair 2 poker, they left, i really want to stay. hope to hear from you.

pokeralias MicRug

Poolio wrote

Thanks for your answer. I have 2 brief questions re: the new software;

1) Will waiting lists be introduced? If you multi-table it is almost impossible to play properly without them and it is frustrating, it is fastest finger first to sit down at a table when somebody leaves. I read previously that OnGame said waiting lists stop people starting new tables but I think a common-sense compromise would be to have waiting lists restricted to a certain number of people and also to limit the number of tables a player can wait for.

2) Will player location be displayed ever? Will any player search facility ever be incorporated into the software?

The above issues (excluding player location) are the simple software issues that have caused me to stop playing on betfair and I am sure many other players feel waiting lists are needed and some kind of search player facility would be handy.

The main issue though is the ESSENCE rakeback system which I am sure many people will ask about. Can you explain how it works? If you don't know then please say so as that will be better than ignoring questions and/or attempting to blag an answer Wink


Hi Poolio

1)    Waiting list – we would like to have something here, and are pushing for a solution. But yes, we agree that waiting list is a feature that should come back in some format.

2)    Player location is a feature planned on the development roadmap. At this moment in time though, we don’t have any indication on the timeline. But it will be displayed at some stage.


Our loyalty manager is in the process of drafting an answer on your Essence question.

Ghadaffi - I have just sent you an email. There were problems with the leaderboards. The email should clarify things but as it contains your  private information I did not want to post it here.

Would also like to see that poolio but Ongame keeps those numbers a big secret. I understand the concept of the essence system in that it keeps losing player playing for longer, meaning that even tho the will receive less rakeback the will win more because the losing players play more. The problem I have with this system is that the worst players I have played against don't stick around very often so not sure if me giving up some of my rakeback to keep them playing longer is beneficial to me. My worry is that a % of my rake will be credited to a another player who will then leave without claiming any rakeback or bonuses, meaning I have gained nothing for losing a % of my rake. Betfair's answer have suggested this is not the case tho I would love to see even rough estimates to reassure me.

Thanks for the answer Betfair PR, I am also interested to know whether or not free rolls really bring in new player who later deposit or whether that money could be spent rewarding customers who rake

Hi BF Folks
Nothing new amongst my suggestions, just hope that if I and others continue to mention them, you will start/continue to pass them on to OnGame:
1. Dealer Button conceals cards at certain table sizes, certain positions
2. Dont resize chips with tables - they are barely visible on smaller table size
3. Offer some double stack sit and goes - I think OnGame would more likely accomodate that than 2000 chips or changing blind structure (IPoker do them)
4. $33 and/or $54 regular speed MTT freezeout starting somewhere between 7-9pm UK
5. The community games that have recently started are great, but dont put them in the lobby and then cancel them or not give out the password
6. Champion Chip Qualifiers that are not turbos that guarantee more than one seat
7. Sort out the log on screen, it often takes 3-4 times of writing my password before it lets me in

Thank you

Rivered

Very little of our budget goes towards free rolls and the simple answer is yes they do bring in players that deposit at a later date. Since we have a large sports offering it is a very good way of introducing poker to sports bettors. Annette_15 accumulated her first (and only) bankroll via freerolls!!

why can't I putt?

rivered I agree with what you are saying. I think it is a fact that the majority of losing and/or casual players don't take advantage of rakeback because they don't know about it or don't play enough to earn it. I think rakeback has affected online poker in negative ways as I have controversially stated here before and was attacked by others, I don't think the Essence system is the way forward unless it is implemented on every site which will never happen. As I said though I am largely ignorant on how it works so I will wait to see if either ongame or betfair explain it in more detail.

how is the flop /turn /river decided?
is it like old bf/ pokerchamps and decided pre flop when cards are. or is it like cyp to was and decided after last person has acted on each rd of betting?

q2.  any chance of a clock inside playin area on stts or mtts?

Pokerstein

1 & 2    We acknowledge these are problems and are working with Ongame to get the rectified.
3,4 & 6  Noted - we will bring this up with Ongame in our regular poker room management meetings
5        We are investigating this now as we werent aware of the issue.
7        There are several people that have reported this this week. As you haev said it can be resolved by imputting you details 3-4 times. We have raised this with Ongame and this should be resolved asap.

akabula 07 Sep 10 18:46 

What changes to the software, if any, are planned for THIS year.

Hi Akabula,

The key focus at the moment from Ongame is to improve the performance of the client, in particular when it comes to multi-tabling.

There are small fixes in the pipeline as well – one which has been mentioned here a number of times is the dealer cards covering the cards at certain sizes. This will be fixed soon.

MichielR - I will look up your contact details but please outline your problems in an email to me prteam@betfair.com and I will try and help.

Not a lot then

I will, ty, any particular name i should direct it too?

Essence (simplified)

Example given takes a scenario from a heads up table between Player A (winning player last 90 days) and Player B (losing player last 90 days)

Player A and Player B go to the showdown both having contributed $20 each to the pot and Player A manages to win the hand and is awarded the pot.

From the Pot the max cap rake would have been applied which is $3 and this would then be attributed based on the essence model. This is where the essence model is applied and the rake attributed to Player A ( the winning player last 90 days) would be less than Player B (losing player last 90 days)

For example Player A could receive $1.2 of rake and therefore 3.9 player points whereas Player B could receive $1.8 of rake giving him 5.85 player points from that hand.

The rating of a player is based on several different elements such as performance, game type, stake levels and obviously the players that he/she has previously played against. The last point is relevant because you could have two winning players on a table but Player A rated slightly higher the Player B and the rake attribution would differ slightly.

dibble 07 Sep 10 19:26 

why can't I putt? 


Why? Because you’ve got lousy technique and no feel and you don’t strike the ball on the sweet spot on the putter.
But there’s help here - http://www.progolfschool.com/Putting.htm#Why We Cant Putt

MichielR - If you put BetfairPokerPR in the subject it will come to me

ok, thx, i will send it tomorrow or the day after.

So find a player, waiting lists, country of origin, 2000 stacks, 7 max will not be implented until next year, if at all?

And you have still not explained essence EXACTLY.  What other company says we will give you a discount, but we won't tell you how much until you have spent your money with us and even then you cannot check to see it is right.

Thanks everyone.
If you have any further questions we will be monitoring the forum over the next few days.

Annie - I will answer your questions personally over the next few days.

I have noticed as well that the biggest posters on this forum and players, that are also friends of betfairs reps or have been to betfair's pr events have not asked any questions or critized betfair. Maybe they do not want to rock the boat? 

hmmm.. Annie.... I think you have scored [smiley:crazy]

is there a reason my 2 questions keep getting ignored/?

yep - that's about it BFP-PR... rubbish technique and no feel. you're so right

phew ... just finished reading all of annies comments. Now exhausted, but disappointed as it too so long to read her stuff, that i timed out of this Q&A session.

Anyways - i concur with this and would also like to know the answers:
gnashersblackpool
Joined: 07 Feb 05
Replies: 154 07 Sep 10 20:26   
is there a reason my 2 questions keep getting ignored/?

You were lucky, klup, I was going to type ALL the things I do not like about betfair 2, but I did not want to take up ALL the question time 

Have I read this correctly - The Klup is exhausted after a session with Annie - not much of a Greek God afterall.
He's too old for you Annie.

gnasherblackpool

I wanted to double check my answer before I responded to you about our RNG.

The Random Number Generator (usually referred to as RNG) is a hardware device used to ensure the fairness of the poker games. RNG generates a sequence of numbers which correspond to various results in all the games. Nobody can predict the next number in a series, no matter how many previously generated numbers have come out. RNG’s outcome can not be modified or predicted in any way, so the results of the games are really based on a combination of luck and game skills. The results of the games coming from the RNG are not player dependent. The RNG works for the whole gaming system.

To ensure our poker software consistently produces random numbers we have Independent Auditors review the output of the Random Number Generator embedded in our poker software on a monthly basis. A copy of these reports can be viewed here:

http://www.ecogra.org/certificates/poker.aspx?cid=229


So the cards are not decided until they are dealt, there is an actual shuffle before every card is dealt. This is to make it impossible for hackers to be able to get into the system and be able to use this knowledge to only play hands they know will become good. Poker sites gain nothing by who wins or loses a hand or a tournament, but by rakes and buy-in fees.

Regarding the RNG that is different from what you told me before. I explicitly asked at the last Q & A session whether or not the RNG produced a random deck, which was then used to produce the deal and table cards without any further manipulation, ie exactly the same as playing live. I was told definitively that this was so. So now you are saying that the pack is re-shuffled before each card is dealt?

Wykhamist2

I was mis-informed last time. On our old software the RNG pre-determined all cards before they were dealt whereas on our new software the cards are shuffled before every card is dealt.

Why cant you limit losses for sports betting without impacting your poker playing ability but you can the other way round.....(thanks in advance)

Dear Betfair,why is it that most of the satellites/qualifiers availible are super turbo's? This is most frustrating as I would like to play in some of the more expensive tournaments but I don't see much point in entering a crap shoot to try and qualify.This just turns poker into a pure gamble where skill makes little difference.

Why cant you limit losses for sports betting without impacting your poker playing ability but you can the other way round.....(thanks in advance)