Rake Back / Loyalty Programme explained

And how do you work out player points?

Unless Betfair provides some more information about how the essence system works and how my rakeback is affected they will not need to worry about calculating what my 30% rakeback will be. As they are welcome to keep 100% of my rake which will be zero until they resolve this issue as I will be playing on a different poker site from now on unless they resolve this issue.

As someone who used to play on Betfair and was considering returning at some point in the future, I would echo the point made by rivered, there is no way on earth I would play on a site where there is some secret formula for calculating player benefits which is not transparent to all who risk their money there!

firstly let me point out that i do not agree with the essence system!

however - my view is, that if someone knew how the essence system worked it would be open to manipulation by players.

For Example

If its based on net profit then:
- High volume cash player sits on  a $10/$20 cash table and loses $10K in five hands to his mate paying $25 in rake - his mate (who is likely to be only an MTT player) then sends him back the money.
- He is then on a big losing handicap so when he plays for the next 60/90 days is favoured by the essence system and is getting a higher % of the points or rakeback.

if however, its based volume of hands lost then the reverse applies
- A high stakes players drops to 2c/4c and loses 10000 hands
- he then goes to high stakes and plays normally
- He would then be on a big volume losing hands handicap so when he plays for the next 60/90 days is favoured by the essence system and is getting a higher % of the points or rakeback.


Thats just a wild stab at why they would want to keep this "superior technology" formula a "secret" 

either way or why they done it - doesnt make sense to me. I dont play cash, it does not affect me, but the more i think and talk about it, the more rediculous the essence system looks to me

"To reiterate, your rakeback deal is unaltered compared to prior to us moving to Ongame. What has changed with essence is what level of rake is attributed to you. Essentially, if overall you are a winning player, slightly less rake will be attributed to you- if you are overall a losing player, then you will have more rake attributed to you. Your player points will give you a good indication of the rake attributed to you after essence has been applied."

How much does "slightly" mean in this case. Wouldn't it be fair to let the customers know exactly how the rake that they have paid is being manipulated and how this affects to rakebacks? IMO it's VERY shady to calculate the amount of rake contributed by a player with some secret formulas.

i swear i read something on 2+2 that had a link to more details of how the essence system works, will try and dig it up

Another point, an educated guess I would assume that winning players are more likely to claim rakeback and bonuses than losing players. Therefore by taking money away from winning players and giving it to losing players who are less likely to claim rakeback and bonuses, ongame are therefore giving out less money in rakeback and bonuses than under different systems such as dealt, shared and contributed.

So BetfairPokerPR, can you explain why I was told on the 6th August that the rake was divided among only those that had seen the flop?  If you listen to the tape of the conversation you will hear that I asked him to repeat it several times so there is no chance of him misunderstanding me.  No mention was made about the essence system.

Only betfair could post a long reply and not post the answer to the question that we really want answered - how does the essence system work? 

It is like the replies you get from our emails, just quoting relevant parts that you know and not answering what you asked about

So when u play good and win, you will receive LESS RAKEBACK? What is the logic behind this? Scaring of regulars?

we want NUMBERS of rakeback we are going to receive. Is it close to the 40% we use to get? or ever lower than 30%?

Will keep it simple.

If A and B are the only two to see a flop.  Player A is good and has a rakeback deal; player B is bad and has no rakeback deal.

How is the rakeback calculated?

After a month of play in new rb system. I can say with confidence that i have about 40% less rb. Now i see what this "slightly" less rb for wining players (i am a reg. player and wining)means. Sad ofcourse.

P.S. Ofc BetfairpokerPR explained exactly same thing that u can find anywhere in internetwebz. Nothing real interesting and important. As i expected.

If a player is on a 30% deal can only mean he gets 30% of the rake back that he has paid.In my mind there can only be ONE way to calculate that. Simply by adding up the rake paid.What on earth is "rake attributed"? I can only conclude that this "essence system " is an elaborate way to avoid paying what has been agreed. In business you get done for breach of contract when you pull stunts like that.

So when u play good and win, you will receive LESS RAKEBACK? What is the logic behind this? Scaring of regulars?

Nah, it's just simple marketing logic: that way you can channel the money to various promotion schemes targeting your average recreational player e.g. deposit bonuses, rake races, etc. that give the player the feeling that he's "doing good". It's more efficient as an advertisement strategy model. Let's be honest, the recreational players are the customer's that bring in the money so it makes sense from the POV of the site to get as many new ones they can as well as keeping the old ones happy despite them being losing players in the long run. It's just business. The site doesn't really care who wins and who loses in the long run but it does care about its revenue stream.

Now, I'm not happy about the new model, because from the POV of your average winning player it simply sucks compared to the old one :-). But I do understand the logic behind it and why the site would want to implement it that way.

That said, here's a request: Could we get a running counter of PPs on the table screen? The gained PPs appear in seconds in my account after I leave a table so they must be calculated "on the run" so it should be a simple matter to show them accumulating on the screen, too. It would make the system a bit more transparent to players even if you are contract bound not to release the detailed formula. Besides, it probably would induce players targeting the various promotions to play a bit more so it would be good business, too.

...

THANKS FOR THAT!

annie is correct. losing players less likely to claim rakeback which means winners get less and ongame get more
ridiculous scam.

Betfair can we please have the  "essence" formula for what level of rake is attributed to each player?
is the "essence" formula just away to attribte most of the rake to players not on rakeback deals?

if you don't tell me the formular and you know it......

then i hope you get a terminal disease and last no longer than xmas

Grow up.

Its not good for Betfair/Ongame too because the fish get more money back and will desposit less. Regs are not going to desposit. They either leave if the games are not profitable (enough) or cash out big parts of their winnings.

What I heard about the essence system is that if a huge fish plays vs a other player and they are heads up in a pot and rake both 50 cent. The total rake is 1 dolllar and the whale get 82 cent and the other player 18 percent. So if you are on a 30 percent rakeback deal. The whale get 0.3 *82 and the other player get 0,3 * 18

Betfair is not keeping their word about keeping the remaining rakeback deals. Since they changed the formule how the rakeback is calculated in their favor.

I am a old customer from Betfair. And I notice that a lot of the old betfair players left the room. I play here for 3 years and I am planning to leave too.

they can stuff thier rewards! just give us a reliable site that doesent disconnect during tourneys and one that i can log into without regularly seeing...INVALID PASSWORD!...gimme a break betfair...get iot together ya useless gits!

I made a quick and rough calculation too, and saw that I am losing a fair amount of my rakeback, maybe 30% - 35%, which mean that instead of getting a 40% rakeback, we actually perceiving 24% to 26%.

I hope that betfair leaders understand that the main (only?) asset of the room is the 40% rakeback, because in terms of software, traffic, promotions and possibilities, betfair competitors are superiors.

I let myself a few week to see if the system go back to the former rakeback method and I may leave too, just like a lot of other players in my opinion

Hi Paco, BingoBingo here. I started with a nice 34 buyin downswing so the ongame system saw me as a fish and gave me a effective rakeback of 48 percent. (normally I get 40 if I take 1500 pounds). This month i won back all the money and they are cutting the percentage to like 30 percent because of the way they calculated the rake I dont get to the 1500 pounds level so I am stuck too 30 percent

Does this system affect mtts & sngs as well as cash?

Only cash tables. STT's and MTT's as before.

Epic fail,

It’s important to distinguish the principle of essence from rakeback.

Essence is a system that balances the rake taken on the pot between the players involved. As such, essence defines a certain value, on the fly, to each player, based on his relative performance against other players in the hand. Essence looks at the whole room as an ecosystem that can only be sustainable if the flow of money between all players is balanced. To simplify, large winning players take money out of the system, whilst losing players put money in. In that regard, winning players have less implied value then losing players. Concretely it means that less of the rake taken from the pot gets attributed to winning players and more to losing ones. The overall rake against a pot stays the same however.

Rakeback (or Store points for players that do not receive rakeback) is a reward and loyalty system. Let’s say a player has received 360 player points in a month, or in terms of rake is valued at $100 of rake. That valuation is determined by essence. Rakeback or other rewards are applied on the basis of that valuation. So if you’re on a 30% rakeback deal, you will receive 30% of $100, i.e. $30. The reward you receive is not changed in any way.

As per our initial post, you can estimate your level of rake, and hence rakeback, at any time by looking up your player points from the player’s club.

Dooberama,

Thanks for your question which should help us clarify further the difference between rakeback and essence.
Let’s assume from your example that the rake on the pot was the max of $3. Player A is the winning player and so will receive a smaller attribution of the total rake. Let’s say he is being attributed $1.2, whilst player B gets attributed $1.8.

Player A has a 30% rakeback deal. He will receive 30% of $1.2. Player B has no rakeback deal, but he will automatically receive player points which can be transformed into Store points and redeemed in the loyalty store. Hi reward is not defined by a rakeback deal, but by the Player’s club loyalty system.

Baginz,

Congratulations for being a winning player.
You make a very fair statement, which has also been echoed by several other posters about the transparency of Essence.
As we have explained before Ongame do not publish the details of the Essence formula, only its principle, i.e. that it attributes the rake based on the relative performance of the player’s involved in a hand. (Also a quick reminder that essence only applies to cash games and does not affect tournaments at all)

The biggest negative effect is that it changes what players are used to see. A player’s individual valuation is changed, and at its core how this is changed is not being openly published. We understand the frustration this causes entirely.

What we can commit to is to continuously seek to get as much detail and transparency on Essence as we can. Our fundamental belief is that it should be transparent and we will strive towards this and share with you the details as soon as they become available.

There are probably some elements we can already give you – for example we know that 80% of all players see a variation of between +- 25%, and hence 20% of the players will have larger swings compared to the old rake attribution model. We’ll try and detail that further as we get to that level of data. Any other elements that help make essence more transparent, we will share with you. That is a commitment.

Ghadaffi,

We’ve probably answered your point already but just wanted to explain again why we talk about rake attributed. Rake is paid on a pot, and is always calculated as 5% of the pot with a cap at $3 (or less on head’s up games). It is the pot which is raked, not the individual player. Therefore, we need to have a rule to attribute that rake to the players involved. Whether  this is done on a dealt basis or contributed basis or through the essence rule, there is always an attribution of the rake from the pot to the players involved. Hope that helps.

Will12

Just  a clarification on the first part of your post. Across the network, Essence changes nothing in terms of the total amount of rake that is being taken. the total rake is the same, the distribution of that rake against the players is what changes. Another way of saying this is that in itself Essence does not generate additional profit for the room. (it simply creates long term sustainability.

So for the vast majority of breakeven or losing players, it means they get valued slightly more, and can receive slightly larger rewards through the loyalty system (whether rakeback or Store points)

It does not affect how we channel our marketing budget towards different groups of players or different types of promotions.

On your suggestion of having Player points on the table screen, this is obviously a very good one and we would like to implement this. We think we should be in a position to show this in the poker client lobby fairly soon as a first step, and then hopefully directly on the table at some point.

Thank you all for your comments and feedback.

Ghostbusters 2

Losing players are actually exactly as likely to be on rakeback as winning players. 75% of overall players are breakeven or losing players. 75% of players on rakeback are breakeven or losing players.

The biggest factors that affect whether you have rakeback or not is your region (which country you come from) - and your age group, not in the slightest whether you win or lose.

Regarding “Ongame get more”, this is a complete misperception of essence.

Two reasons: overall rake is exactly the same, there is no difference on that whatsoever. All players receive some form of value back, either through rakeback or through the loyalty scheme

Mach,

Hopefully answers above answer your question already, but just to reiterate directly:

The details of the essence formula are not being published by Ongame –As mentioned above, we would like this to change going forward.

And no, Essence has nothing to do with rakeback deals as we have hopefully clarified.

OttoOtto,

The example you’re giving here of an attribution of the rake 82/18 is absolutely extreme. It’s not impossible, it probably does happen in extreme situations. It is certainly not what the vast majority of players will experience (the difference will be between +- 25% for 80% of the players)

I hope we have already answered the part about keeping the rakeback deals. No deal is affected, if you are to receive 30% of your rake, that is exactly what you are receiving. How the rake is attributed to you is what has changed, not the rakeback. But please refer to the posts above for more details.

PacoNicky

Please refer to the posts above – as per Baginz, We understand that there is a difference between what you expected to rake and the rake that is actually being attributed to you. Again though, you are receiving the same rakeback %.

McCoy Carp

Essence only affects rake attribution on cash games, the fees on MTT and SNGs are unchanged.

So for people who are opted in for the 120k race, winning cash game players are at a disadvantage vs winning tourny players? Wouldn't it be fairier to have 2 races? Also, thank you for finally replying...... only took 2 months to admit the formula is secret (I emailed 10 times and got a reply once saying someone would get back to me, obv nothing after that).

fairer*** :)

I really don't get this, and I don't think BetfairPokerPR does either.

"We understand that there is a difference between what you expected to rake and the rake that is actually being attributed to you. Again though, you are receiving the same rakeback %."

So this is my understanding:

- We are PAYING rake as we always did. This hasn't changed. The amount that is taken out of the pot is the same as it was on the old software (in cash games).
- There is now some convoluted system which states that even though we have PAID the same amount of rake, the amount of rake that has been ATTRIBUTED to us is less (if you win the pot).

This ultimately means that the amount of rakeback we receive is less. We are paying the same amount, the system recognises us as paying less, and applies our rakeback % to the new lesser amount.

You can go on about how our deals haven't changed until you are blue in the face, but the fact is our deals HAVEN'T remained the same and we are receiving less rakeback.

im assuming this is a huuuggggeee con! so me and another winning player start a table up heads up, i imagine our points per amount rake is set for a certain time. Meaning we are both getting screwed on the amount we've supposed to have raked? it should be about 50 50 but i would be amazed if it is!!
Also you clearly broke your promise to keep rakeback at the same level. Clearly 40% rakeback is 40% money back from the amount you raked hence the term rakeback. Its not 27% of 4000$. An absolute joke betfair

im in favoure of this programme i have had more back off this than in my 2 yaers with bf plus it is better than these so called store point system i would of only had 35 dollers back up to now instead ive had 100dollers back if u dont want to be on the loyaly programme bf will happily put u on the current store points system were u will lose out.

Player A has a 30% rakeback deal. He will receive 30% of $1.2. Player B has no rakeback deal, but he will automatically receive player points which can be transformed into Store points and redeemed in the loyalty store. Hi reward is not defined by a rakeback deal, but by the Player’s club loyalty system.

Cliffs

For each $1 you have removed from the rakeback of your better players.

At a push you are giving 50c to your bad players
That mean that there is 50c to share between yourself and ongame. 
The fact you already had $7 between you doesn't seem to have occured to you.

If you really believed in the principles you claim are behind Essence, you'd make sure that the bad players got the dollar you took off the good players and you would then be adding a dollar of your own.

This isn't happening, which pretty much exposes Essence for what it is.

I am done with Betfair if they keep being a part of the ongame thieve systeem. Today the software disconnected and some of my money was trapped. This afternoon I got a refund. They gave me 200 euro less than before  the dc. I can check because I have holdem manager. I am pro player I need software where I can rely on. Most ppl here know me as BingoBingo on betfair. I played on betfair for 3 years every month 70 a 80 k hands. I raked a average of 3k dollar a month. But enough is enough. I am mailing with support to get my moneyback and then I go to a better place. Still missing the old betfair. A lot of the old ppl have left too.

Ooh yeah here is the link of the ongame bussiness plan:

http://www.ongamenetwork.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/01/InjectingPlayerValue_L.pdf

Here a link with percentage:

http://www.pokerisivut.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=26&t=18240

mr cliffs what do u mean about bad and good players if your playing cash u are putting in rake no matter if u win or lose it doesnt matter if some1 is good or bad. rake is paid no matter what at a rate of 5c per doller so if im in a 2doller pot and i win 10c goes to rake.if i lose 10c goes to rake so does it matter what level a player is at.

Strange, I am still waiting to receive the rakeback of 16-30 sept. What day will Betfair pay the rakeback of that period? (Normally it is paid the first or second day of the new month I thought)

This has just gone on our Q&A session. We are happy to answer some questions but please post them in that thread for the next hour rather than here as I will not be monitoring it

Some answers to your Essence questions

Q:           Why have you conned us saying we will get 40% rakeback when we get 40% pointback?
A:           We have honoured all legacy rake back deals to the same % as prior to the migration, this has not changed. The way in which rake is attributed on cash tables has changed since we joined the network. Therefore some players who play the same volume as they did prior to migration may see a different amount of rake back according to the ‘essence’ model.

Q:           Betfair promised to keep the existing rakeback deals intact. Yet the changing the way of attributing the rake so ppl with 40 percent rakeback get basically 30 percent rakeback. They are not keeping their words.
A:           Same answer as above applies

Q:           Why have you continued to pay some STT players enhanced rakeback at the same time as you are removing it from your regular cash players?
A:           The ‘essence’ formula only applies to cash games, therefore if you only play tournaments and are subject to the ‘house fee’ then you will not be subject to the ‘essence’ calculations. All deals regardless of the type of player you are have been honoured.

Is it fair to say that on average your profitable players have better rakeback deals than your losing players?

A:            Not at all, there are both winning and losing players on equal rake back deals

Q:           If that is true, do you accept that the Essence system means that overall Betfair and Ongame take a bigger proportion of the rake than they would do without Essence?
A:           The rake amount that is charged on cash games and by tournament fees has not changed, only the way it gets attributed to players. It very much depends on how the players perform against other players under the ‘essence’ model.

Q:           If you believe in the fundamental principle of the Essence system, then when are Ongame and Betfair going to take steps to ensure that all the money taken from the better players goes to the bad players?
A:           According to ‘essence’ rake is attributed based on your play between the players on that particular table. Whether the players are on rake back or part of a loyalty scheme is irrelevant as they would be awarded Player Points regardless so this ensures that players are rewarded based on their coefficient within the ‘essence’ model.

Q:           If you don't believe in the fundamental principle of the Essence system, then why haven't you just come clean and say that you are reducing rakeback to boost profits from poker?

A:           Same as above, can maybe add that we are working with Ongame towards providing more transparency around ‘essence’ and how it is attributed although the general principles around keeping the ecology of the room stable still applies.