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RoyalAcademy
08 Jan 15 14:25
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Date Joined: 05 Jun 08
| Topic/replies: 12,634 | Blogger: RoyalAcademy's blog
frank60's story of the drunken punter and cartoon racing on another topic reminded me to post this thread. been in my mind a while and hope others might contribute

back in the good old days when it was possible and feasible and likely to lose a week's paypacket on a Saturday afternoon we used to frequent an old Power's (pre-paddy) shop and it was always populated by a few good characters

One was given to calling Uttoxeter...Yoo-ter-ox

another, with a stutter, famously called To-Agori-Mou........Too-too-too-too-phuckin-ariggy-mooo-ah

there was always the lad who'd scream abuse at the blower when the jock lost a photo-finish "always knew he was a useless phucker"

and the first big punter I witnessed putting thousands - cash - on Pat Eddery's mounts every Saturday and invariably walked out broke.
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Report punchestown January 8, 2015 3:24 PM GMT
The ould lad marking up the prices in the Bookies shop definitely missed,and what about backing on the old Tote at the races,standing in the rain at the closed window  after a win waiting to get paid out and you clutching onto your yellow ticket with all the little holes punched in it watching for the blackboard to go up.
Report tobywong. January 8, 2015 4:01 PM GMT
The self proclaimed paddock expert and judge who is later confessing to losing his proverbial and chasing his losses on the yankee doodle dandy racing all through the evening even though he has been gambling 40 years CryCryCry
Report workrider January 8, 2015 4:09 PM GMT
The Wexford CC worker shifting the rubbish bins hoping someone dropped a winning ticket ...
Report frank60 January 8, 2015 4:24 PM GMT
The old lad with the credit bet i.e. a Shilling win credit a scilling win credit a shilling win brings back a few Memories R.A. If the 1st horse lost and some of the horses won you would stay well clear with some of the hard luck stories.
Report wildmanfromborneo January 8, 2015 4:29 PM GMT
ATC bets they were called,very popular years ago and tailor made for hard luck stories.
Report reb January 8, 2015 4:32 PM GMT
Here's the Documentary On One, "You Win Some,You Lose Some", from 1975 (20% tax paid on all bets at point of placement) with contributions from bookmakers Terry Rogers and Joe Cunningham.

http://www.rte.ie/radio1/doconone/2011/0718/646815-radio-documentary-gamblers-anonymous/


Think it might be time for an updated version that deals with ALL the realities of modern-day betting.
Report frank60 January 8, 2015 5:22 PM GMT
Reb i listened to the radio Documentary and i had to smile when asked about gambling addiction Terry Rodgers Stated that some punters enjoyed loseing as well as winning, i dont think he would get away today,like you said ;Think it might be time for an updated version that deals with ALL the realities of modern-day betting.
Report reb January 8, 2015 5:36 PM GMT
Yes frank. I think the documentary maker, John Skehan, although a good broadcaster generally, failed to ask some pertinent questions and came across as a little naive in relation to the subject matter. I have to say that this criticism can be levelled at many current broadcasting media although, I have reason to  believe, there may also be "commercial reasons" nowadays for failure to deal with ALL the realities of modern day gambling.
Report callitasucit January 8, 2015 5:36 PM GMT
Talking about Tote Windows Punch, few years ago at Chelt I got a placepot up. I invested approx $160 on this particular docket. Litany of favourites placed, and though the Pot was 'successful', my payout amounted to a meagre $112.

When collecting, the girl behind the counter beams a big smile my way....."Very well done Sir, you will enjoy your night tonight!!"
Report Ozymandius January 8, 2015 5:45 PM GMT
I trust you slipped her your hotel room key?
Report callitasucit January 8, 2015 5:50 PM GMT
I can only assume that is what she was intimating Oz!!

There used to be an independant close enough to where I was brought up. Was an old doll working there who wasnt the fizziest can in the fridge, and wouldnt have known Party Politics from Farloes Melody.

When doing a placepot, if putting 2 selections in each race, it would be 64 units....not so in this shop. Such a bet for a one pound stake, cost a simple 2 pound!! Yet when collecting we would obviously explain how the correct dividend would be got.....and was paid!

She also assumed every soccer match started at 3pm. 1992/3 FA Cup semi final, a few of us went over to the local GAA for a few pints of blackcurrant watching  the game. Went over to the bookies at half time to back Chris Waddle to score first.

Those were the daysGrin
Report The Gotchee January 8, 2015 5:51 PM GMT
The biggest loss to the bookmakers office is the Board Marker.
All the runners, ,prices, of horses drifting or hardening and the results on the one big sheet.
In evenings when the shop was closed you could see the same big sheet in the window will all the results and starting prices.
Report frank60 January 8, 2015 6:24 PM GMT
i remember back in the early 90s when money was in short supply Callit i did a pound P/POT on the Ayr november meeting; i was waiting for the last horse to give me the p/pot, the horse was placed and i waited with great anticipation to the payout,the manager was about to close the shop when over the intercom came the p/pot at Ayr pays 1,515 pounds; i nearly s hit myself  , i allways remberber the face of my youngest son when i threw the brown envelope on to the table and asked him to open it. I ran into  the manager a while back and was Relating the story to him and he told me he remembers the bet well. Grin
Report paulie wallnuts January 8, 2015 7:48 PM GMT
One of my strongest memories was when I used frequent a betting shop in South Dublin in the early 90's.....there was a small fella who used be a regular.....did his dough with regularity.....he was a character all the same......could give reasons why he was backing one.....they were invariably wrong all the same....
He used wear a Shamrock Rovers top.....and was nearly always in good form.....actually some of his mates were in awe of him....they described his lifestyle as idyllic.....you know the type....never worked in his life....gambled in 100's....played golf any day he wasn't in the shop.....even owned dogs at a stage....I couldn't make it out myself.....I moved away shortly afterwards.....wonder where the poor fella is now?......
Report Kelly January 8, 2015 8:03 PM GMT
The board marker was a big feature in lots of shops , the gotchee . Most of them took their job seriously , they invariably were racing / sporting enthusiasts , and often shrewd punters themselves ( when/if they were allowed to punt) . The perusal of the "marked up board" as displayed on the front window was meat and drink for those of us having to work 9-5 , pre teletext and other result finding operations . In Dublin I walked past Joe Byrnes shop near Upper Leeson Street most nights  , and if I missed that walk past used to check up on the way to or from Shelbourne dogs where I went a lot of nights .
Report mrcombustible January 8, 2015 8:46 PM GMT
Talking about Drogheda from 1967 onwards. There were 3 Powers shops, (the Power girls were always a cut above the other shops), a couple of Corcoran shops(think they were a Wexford outfit, T P Gavigan had a few shops, he was from Kells and had horses with Paddy Osborne. A local guy called Carr and a Northern Ireland mob who also owned the roadhouse at Julianstown. No commentary nor shows,all business at SP unless ante post. the only information was the results coming over the Blower. Most shops had the Sporting Chronicle, Irish Press and Independent on the wall, very few had the Life. No problem getting a bet on as a schoolboy, there was a Corcorans beside the school and a shop that sold single cigarettes.  Years on when the tax went to 20% the Northern Ireland mob had a scheme for regulars, enter your stake at 10% of what you wanted on, so say you were having a 20 bet write £2 on the docket and pay 20p tax, the till would only show £2 and you would get paid out at £20 if bet won, worked very well and saved us a fortune in tax
Report Kelly January 8, 2015 9:05 PM GMT
Kew Tours those lads , mr combustible .  The tax down south was punitive , worst we ever had in the North was 5% for a while , but there also was a problem at that time with football betting as against horses and other sports . Think it was to do with copyright for fixtures , and the soccer people were always looking for handouts pre Sky .

The fact that the tax in the shops in the South was up to 20% drove punters onto the course --horses and greyhounds .  Cant say it was a bad thing even if some on course bookies pushed their luck in offering ridiculous odds , particularly at the smaller greyhound tracks .

Changed set up these days , shops will eventually almost disappear except as amusement arcades , any shrewd punter will be pushing buttons on some sort of a device . Change is inevitable in life , not always for the better .
Report reb January 8, 2015 9:14 PM GMT
Kelly, the shrewd punters aren't pushing buttons on a device; that's too easy for the bookies to identify and restrict. Multiple shop visits in built up areas , keeping stakes under the radar, is the way to go.
Report kavvie January 8, 2015 9:16 PM GMT
same as above with our local bookie as regards tax.if you were putting a tenner or more the slip went on the bookies top pocket for a select few(about 15 lads) me my uncle,brother, and father amongst them.it worked well for the bookie because we often put a tenner on when we really couldnt afford it.the scheme.a bright spark who got too clever was caught.he used to after time his bets as the bookie(rip jim) never looked at the slips as he would be busy.instead of dripping  money put of him he started never having a loser( 14/1 shots a regular occourance).bookie soon copped on and caught and barred him.and rightly so for his stupidity!!..another time a few of us done a forecast bet in a shop in athlone.dint get it up but the incorrect result came thru. amazingly we collected(123 pounds,ill never forget).and were never seen again in the shop.never heard a word about it after..we got jarred and all drove home as was the norm then...
Report Kelly January 8, 2015 9:55 PM GMT
Reb , was doing that 14 years  ago . Only relevant nowadays if you have info  , most well organised shops have "hit list " races highlighted to staff  , and a flurry of similar bets over an area triggers warning bells . Once the bookies were able to monitor bets through centralisation , its easy peasy for computer programs to identify patterns and liabilities .  Not all the bookies staff are sitting on their hands polishing their nails ( if that possible ) .
Report kavvie January 8, 2015 9:56 PM GMT
kelly theres one way out of it..if your well organised enough..the clue is in your post!!
Report Kelly January 8, 2015 10:15 PM GMT
Reb , re button pushers  , shrewd punters etc , a few observations .

Few people who bet  have the good fortune to have information , resources ( except via good business / punting) , and accessibility to the market ( bookies mainly) without restrictions . People who back winners regularly , including profitable non winner bets --each way - are easily identified nowadays unless they are adept at the bet placement point . Hence your shop trekking observation which is valid still but getting trickier .

I suspect a lot of shrewd punters nowadays just trade via the medium of the exchanges .  If you examine the fluctuations on nearly every horse price nearly every day you will find there is on average about a 20% fluctation ( at least) on lots of horses . For someone who knows the time of day , surely there is a big enough margin therein to trade a winning figure on most identified horses . Win a fiver on each of 20 horses on average in a day and you have £100 ( guaranteed) . Back high , lay low , oldest maxim in making a book , which nowadays via exchanges most of us with a head for percentages and figures can achieve . Market fluidity is main problem . Overall figures achievable depend on risk factors the shrewd operator sets for himself . There may be losers , but if it does not work you change it or give it up .
Report Ozymandius January 8, 2015 10:18 PM GMT
Back high , lay low

There could be a book in that revelation, Kelly.  Any chance of you fluffing it out for us non-traders?
Report Rocketfingers January 8, 2015 10:23 PM GMT
Sorry but the 20% rule could you pay it before or just afterwards? And what was the rate on course? Insane tax to pay, surprised there was not a huge undergound betting industry. Imagine football and all sports markets back then would have been priced with a much bigger overround too. My first memory of the old bookies is nipping in for the football coupon on a Friday after school, always used to watch some of the auld lads in there, thinking these boys must really be clued up. Laugh
Report kavvie January 8, 2015 10:27 PM GMT
no rockey.you had to pay it in the shops beforehand.on course you could pay it small on your bet before, or big if your horse won..it was insane really.
Report Rocketfingers January 8, 2015 10:33 PM GMT
Was there underground betting to avoid the tax?
Report Kelly January 8, 2015 10:43 PM GMT
The sad reality of the old days punters was that with tax , margins , limitations ( 5/2 max place element where fav was odds on ) , overall limits ( often punitive) , and not as much information as is available nowadays by monitoring real betting figures  most punters lost , and the bookie drove a decent car .

There are far more opportunities these days to back winners ( for those in the know who always have an advantage) except that the bookies wont lay triers and run for cover as soon as the exchange prices push downwards . I suspect that horses which continually harden in price and have decent form would show a profit if followed more or less blindly . Any arbers I know of tell me that they lose on the exchanges but win off the bookies , and they inevitably are "getting on " on the crest of the wave if they can , thats where shrewd judgement comes in . But they lay back as low as they can consistent with not being left holding an unguaranteed unprofitable "baby" .

Backing winners is extremely satisfying , but there are inevitably losers to counterbalance winnings . Arbers always win , the clue is in the stock exchange term , contemperaneous is the hard bit . And arbers never suffer from fear , and fear of losing is one of the bookies strongest weapons agaist the punter . Scared punters make mistakes , applies to most sporting arenas , we see it every day , dropped catches , everywhere on our screens .
Report kavvie January 8, 2015 10:44 PM GMT
of course.at the tender age of 20 myself and a friend sat in a pub for the 3 days of cheltenham bravely taking on all and sundry..we ended up 500 up each after 3 days.the races not televised used to be on the radio. you wouldnt know what the fcuk was going on in the races til they crossed the line..id say the commentators usta have a few in them by the last few  races.there was no atr or ruk in those days...most self respecting racing pubs usta have a resident on site bookie for the tv races of a saturday.i usta have an annual residency for royal ascot in one..i always took a weeks holidays.a few of the  more republican minded work collegues didnt take too kindly to me doing it.when i explained it was financial they understood..!
Report Rocketfingers January 8, 2015 10:50 PM GMT
Nice, great gig to have Kavvie.
Report kavvie January 8, 2015 10:54 PM GMT
the good old days some would say at least for bookies..tho as kelly says its easier for the punter these days.more info available.more accurate going reports(in the main)which is vital. and in spite of what some might think its straighter now for sure than 30 yrs ago..
Report Kelly January 8, 2015 11:02 PM GMT
Way back in the sixties/ seventies I visited a friend ( bookie) in hospital . Bored out of his tiny , but brain still 100% active and looking for ways to further his business . At that point in time the authorities were implementing their (punitive) tax on football betting , think it was around 20% when horses were only 5% -- this was in the North .

He knew I was well versed in mathematical matters ( his wife was in same uni year as myself ) , so a simple question re probability came up between us . I asked him the percentage profit on football betting , it came up as 10% , equals a probability of success of 0.9 . To the power of 3 that comes out at 0.729 .

The following week his football betting coupon came out , trebles and upwards , no tax . Queues to get on . First in UK I think .  Sums . Little wonder he headed the betting market on course in Ireland North and South for years .
Report Ozymandius January 8, 2015 11:07 PM GMT
I wonder if its too late for a Nobel prize nomination?
Report Kelly January 8, 2015 11:11 PM GMT
Ozy , we are having all our yesterdays discussions , trying to prove your ability as a hidden sniper is unhelpful . Go away and discuss muslims or something .
Report reb January 8, 2015 11:19 PM GMT
Kelly, was thinking more in terms of non-four-legged bets in my post above.
Report Ozymandius January 8, 2015 11:23 PM GMT
A brilliant story  You, a math prodigy, summoned to a bedside and the Eureka moment when you realised that acumulators increased risk....wow....0.9 cubed...genius.

There could be a movie in this.

I presume there was an explanation as to why footballing trebles attracted no tax, but we never got there in the story.  never mind. details, eh?
Report kavvie January 8, 2015 11:29 PM GMT
oz you should see someone about yourself..
Report Ozymandius January 8, 2015 11:31 PM GMT
can you explain it to me please, kavvie
Report Ozymandius January 8, 2015 11:43 PM GMT
No?  No...... I didn't think so.
Report kavvie January 8, 2015 11:43 PM GMT
a nice thread.people sharing storys of the old days.pleasant reading..easy going stuff.then you come on nit picking and going against the spirit of it.kelly is one of the best contributers on here.i knew exactly what he meant by the hospital story and its logical etc.a genuine guy ive no doubt.what are you trying to achieve?are you trying to discredit him?ridicule him?  i cant make you out at all?if youve nothing positive to contribute you should stay out of it..thats all
Report Kelly January 8, 2015 11:44 PM GMT
Ozy , any credit in the story belongs to the bookie , I was merely the information provider . So leave off , he died too early .

Footballing trebles DID attract tax , at same  20% rate as singles , but bookie was prepared to reduce his profitability expectation to 7.1 per cent for a treble ( more for multiples beyond trebles , which is one of the reasons for avoiding multiples bets , bookies margins extend with every added selection) . Most punters were happy with the solution , only loser was the VAT man who was actually responsible for collecting the bookies tax in those days . Some of the bigger punters would not bet on other than a single match, so their trade was lost to the bookie and to the tax man . But paying 20% of your profit on a single winning bet to the taxman was akin to the Premium Charge thing on here . Replace that with a potential winning 7.1 per cent on every football bet  , pure logic and business sense .
Report kavvie January 8, 2015 11:44 PM GMT
no no i dont think so?...whats wrong with you?can i have a few min to type my reply ffs?
Report Ozymandius January 8, 2015 11:45 PM GMT
a nice thread.people sharing storys of the old days.pleasant reading..easy going stuff

F**K off to Mumsnet if you are looking for a cuddle you boring auld crank!
Report Ozymandius January 8, 2015 11:48 PM GMT
So, what you are saying is that the bookie took some (or all?) of the tax burden from the punter given the greater profitability to him in accumulators?
Report kavvie January 8, 2015 11:49 PM GMT
if its boring stay off it?!?..obviously lots like it.look at the views!  your like an auld wan i knew used be always giving out about glenroe and married miley humping a young one.i asked her was her off switch on her tv broken?...and im ok for cuddles thanks!!
Report kavvie January 8, 2015 11:50 PM GMT
oxz its the same principle as some bookies going nrnb for chelt early.they shorten up the prices,..reduce risk..
Report Ozymandius January 8, 2015 11:51 PM GMT
PM Raters there, see is that cheque still lost in the post.  Maybe he would send you on a fresh one.
Report freddiek January 8, 2015 11:53 PM GMT
happy-go-lucky fella is Ozy.
Report Ozymandius January 8, 2015 11:54 PM GMT
^ The Grim Reaper, right en cue
Report Kelly January 8, 2015 11:55 PM GMT
Punter backs £100 .

Tax man gets £20 , irrespective of result .

On average punter gets a return of £72.90 .

Bookie wins £7.10 .

Just sums . Thats what bookies do , make a book , ideally it always shows a profit if the bookie can figure a below 100% book . Betfair does it for us , every race . Percentages .
Report kavvie January 8, 2015 11:57 PM GMT
see your at it again?trying to ridicule people?  why bring rat up when were talking bout something completely different?your trying to bring me down by mentioning that.im not bothered by it,its water under the bridge.but if it makes you feel good go ahead.bring it up every day.no one will be surprised really..
Report wildmanfromborneo January 8, 2015 11:59 PM GMT
The Tony Kay case of 1964 about match fixing meant no singles allowed by law.
The period Kelly is talking about was a time you could only do trebles or accumulators on football.

The bookie Kelly is referring was innovative and a genius.
Report Ozymandius January 8, 2015 11:59 PM GMT
kavvie,  I never started at you on this thread, nor have i ever made a point of having a go at you  If you want that to change, carry on.
Report Ozymandius January 9, 2015 12:04 AM GMT
interesting Borneo, never knew that about only trebles or upwards allowed.  how long did that last?
Report kavvie January 9, 2015 12:06 AM GMT
you did.first you tried to ridicule kellys account then you brought up the rat incident.so you were having a go at me.and you were ridiculing the thread i was contributing to.so there you go.as wr says goodnight and god bless.im off to bed.
Report Ozymandius January 9, 2015 12:09 AM GMT
yeah i did ridicule Kelly, personally I find him a figure of ridicule at times.

Then you had a go at me....that was the cause of me having a go back at you.  thats how it works, if you want some more, just keep coming.

I wasnt ridiculing the thread btw, you got confused there.
Report wildmanfromborneo January 9, 2015 12:10 AM GMT
Not absolutely sure but think it went on well into the eighties.

Most football gambling was done through the pools in those days.
All the gamblers I knew then either backed horses or dogs,sports betting was non existent.
Report Kelly January 9, 2015 12:41 AM GMT
Ref the match fixing wildman , knew about it when it was happening . Around about 1960 as I recall  . I got the word usually early on a Saturday morning via bookie connection that the fixers were backing up to 3 and 4 matches that Saturday  , occasionally I fluked a few bets on at the "proper "odds with outlying bookies  before the bookies chopped the even money shots to 1/5 etc .

There were guys running aound Belfast in taxis trying to get money on , information was available to them . I told all my friends , a lot of them died in the wool soccerites , initially they laughed at me until the winning reportage started to mount up week after week . The sad thing about the whole episode was that the bookies reported the unusual bets to the relevant ( presumably) authoritities and it took until 1964 before the English authorities got to the bottom of that .  But it was post Suez , which is when England lost the collective will to be significant and a leader .

The fixing did not entirely stop then , a friend approached me one day in the bookies and asked me how to get a single  football bet on ( the bookies were in the throes of trebles and upwards only then ).  It was a Scottish Second Division match , top at home to bottom . 8/1 the away team . The punter concerned wanted a grand or more on , but he was probably the shrewdest football punter in Ireland , English bookies all had him barred , he took 90k ( 1960's) off them one weekend not long before this incident , but no fix involved , just skill and info , he had long Friday night discussions with several prominent managers of prominent clubs in England ( and Scotland) . Never bet on anything but soccer .

I explained several potential possibilities to him , ideally using "non runners" , or perming the 9 possibilities along with selection to satisfy treble rule . Away team won 4-0 agaist top of the table . Never found out how much he got on or if he bothered . Must ask him next time I see him , he was mentioned last Sunday at lunch by a friend who was lauding this football punters charitable exploits currently .  Guess its bookie money !
Report Tolmi January 9, 2015 7:38 AM GMT
If I'm not mistaken football coupons were minimum trebles and minimum 5 folds if a home selection was included.I did not think it was prohibited by law to do singles (in Ireland) merely bookmakers following UK rules.
I think Liam Cashman who was extremely innovative was the first to advertise a coupon where all comers could place a single on the "long list".At a guess this was early/mid 80s.He also was the first that I remember to have morning prices on every horse as well as a variety of in shop specials.
In a way it was sad and indeed ironic to see the demise of his firm mainly caused by failure to embrace modern technology.He could be a prickly and opinionated character but there is no doubting his vision as a bookmaker in his era.
Report Ozymandius January 9, 2015 10:36 AM GMT
The shrewdest football punter in Ireland (banned In England) came to Kelly for advice on how to get a single football bet on.

The advice given was non/runners or using all the perms.

My question is; could the shrewdest punter in Uk and Ireland not have figured that out for himself?  Or were such innovative solutions only devisable by self-confessed maths prodigies at the time.

Whatever next?
Report Ozymandius January 9, 2015 10:54 AM GMT
Looking forward to the story when Ronnie Biggs asks Kelly how to rob a train.
Report Rocketfingers January 9, 2015 11:01 AM GMT
Well Ozy as you could see, it's quite a complicated maths formula Kelly had to walk him thru. I hope you got some royalties from it Kelly !?
Report norn iron January 9, 2015 11:06 AM GMT
I WAS BOARD MARKER FOR  TEN YEARS THEN BEHIND THE COUNTER FOR  3 YRS SAT ONLY  BUT JEEZ I SEEN SOME STROKES MOST UNPRINTABLE Crazy COUPLE I STILL LAUGH ABOUT

I WAS MANAGER FOOTIE TEAM IN DOING BET AND PHONE WAS RINGING IN OFFICE I SAID TO BLOKE ON HIS OWN YOU WANT ME ANSWER IT HE SAID YES PLEASE THE bloke DONE THREE FAV DOUBLES TREBLES ONE WAS MACKESON GOLD CUP TIPPING TIM  HE WON 6 GRAND I DONE THE SAME BET SMALL STAKES  BUT  BEST PART  WAS HE CAME IN ON MONDAY COLLECTED  HE MADE THE POINT OF GIVING ME 2 50£ NOTES IN FRONT OF BLOKE WHO ASKED WHERE WAS HIS tip HE SAID ANSWER THE FECN PHONE AND YOU GET £
Report norn iron January 9, 2015 11:13 AM GMT
A PUNTER WHO ONLY EVER DONE STRAIGHT FORECASTS( I WAS SICK TELLING HIM REVERSE AS HE WAS GOOD AT THE )
BUT HE ALWAYS DONE 5£ PLACEPOT ON MAIN MEETING WAS WAITING ON THE RESULT ON BLOWER FOR LAST RACE NEWMARKET  IT WAS PLACED THEN DIVIDEND CAME THRU OVER  1900£

HE WAS THAT EXCITED OR SHOCKED BUT RIPPED THE DOCKET UP INTO TINY PLACES THE BOOKIE SAID NEEDED DOCKET SO I SAT PIECED IT ALL TOGETHER AND HE GAVE ME 40£


WAS LOT £ THEN AS I GOT 5£ DAY MARK THE BOARD

HE DIED MONTH AGO  RIP
Report RoyalAcademy January 9, 2015 11:15 AM GMT
Adrian Maxwell's South Lodge operation loomed large in my childhood as a consequence of my father and his mates believing that if you knew the Head Lad in any outfit then there were easy pickings available. A particular face I remember was a guy who came to south Tipp from (I believe) Michael Stoute's yard. David Wachman operated from here more recently and declined an offer of the property as a wedding present preferring to move to the historic Longfield stables. To bring the geographical history up to date it was in Wachman's newly-built satellite yard that Philip Fenton met his waterloo.

There was also another angle to find a way into "Maxwell's" and this involved the local p&t (posts and telegraphs) telephone exchange operator listening in on Maxwell's private conversations as every phone call had to be manually handled and the caller linked manually to the number requested ("Clonmel 1234 please!"). Maxwell rumbled this ruse after a period of the time - the giveaway was the almost inaudible "click" which signalled someone joining the conversation - and he set the guys up with false information and screwed them over royally on a couple of occasions. If I recall accurately, one of the horses was a maiden hurdler called "Speaktomebones".

Maxwell was a terrific trainer back in the day and was very innovative and possibly ahead of his time. He started life as a successful jumps trainer (Hop Ball, Bunker Hill and the fantastic Meladon and moved on to handle very well-bred 2yo's for some very famous US owners like Craig Singer who may have been central to the original Hawaii 5-0 series. Inevitably no-one got rich following him but the three greatest days for the "loyal" band of followers were Meladon's Triumph Hurdle win, Orchestration's Ascot win in a Coronation Stakes and best of all was a winning 2yo named Lace Curtain Lil that allowed my old man buy his first ever band spanking new car. She won twice  - at least once in the Park - and what a beautiful track that was for the paying customer.
Report norn iron January 9, 2015 11:18 AM GMT
WAS WORKING BEHIND THE COUNTER THE DAY FRANKIE GOT ALL 7

BOSS SENT ME GET THE LUNCH IN PUB FEW PUNTERS ASKED FOR TIP I SAID DETTORI GET 3 WINNERS

SO CAME BACK REALLY HAD NO NOTION TO BACK ANY  BUT DONE YANKEE GOT OVER GRAND AND BEST PART IS HAD NO CASH SO DONE IT AS STRAP BET TILL GOT PAID  DIDNT LIUFT THE £ TILL MONDAY AS THOUGHT HE SACK ME

AND 2 LADS WON SIMILAR AMMOUNTS Love
Report Kelly January 9, 2015 11:27 AM GMT
Ozy , the punter concerned did not "come to me" for advice , we merely bumped into one another . Like my conversation with my bookie friend re trebles etc the topic was not planned , mere exchange of ideas .  Unlike you Ozy my friends listen to what I say , take it on board , and hopefully it benefits them . As it happens the guy concerned did not need the money , family very well set up and his profession ensured he had a substantial income , he was also an international golfer .

Bear in mind this guy was not one who frequented bookies shops , only ever bet on football , and usually with the English bookies who up to his big win probably laid him .  His big win was (apparently) 4 x £100 trebles and a £100 quad , all away teams . So he was not used to betting locally , the "local "rules would not have been foremost on his agenda , and some local bookies also might have been bending the rules , which I would have known about , he not neccessarily . And it was the sixties , bookies were just exiting locally from the dark ages when they were only tolerated in back streets and had to go to court regularly to be fined . The salient point about the story was that this happened post Tony Kay and company .  Mind you in the thirties I believe the Scottish football betting scene was rampant with hooky goings on .

Trying to ridicule someone who posts relatively sparingly , and only on topics which he knows about ( well no one except Ozy knows everything about any subject on earth ) just shows how shallow a person you are Ozy . This thread should be pickled in aspic for posterity , proof of Del Boys favourite expression as a description of your posts .
Report Ozymandius January 9, 2015 11:39 AM GMT
ah go on, Kelly tell us another one (at great length)

Was it yourself that came up with the fake fourth funnel on the Titanic and did you play GAA with anyone on board?
Report kavvie January 9, 2015 11:43 AM GMT
kelly your better off not conversing with him..hes bitter about everything and everyone.life prob wasnt good to him and hes angry..poor chap..
Report Kelly January 9, 2015 11:44 AM GMT
And reference my friend being a substantial punter , all the big betting in Ireland up to the seventies was in the North , so if you were the biggest punter in the north , you were the biggest in Ireland .  The southern betting scene was paltry compared with Belfast , my father who was by no means the biggest punter around , used to be able to get £1000 on one of his dogs around the war time  , Kilmartins used to flinch at the sight of  folding money in those days . 

In other posts on other forums some forumites recount Jim Rice  ( from Belfast)taking bets of £40,000 ( on one horse) on course -- a semi d cost £500 then .

One of the best Irish punters ever , MVOB , won about 2 grand with his autumn double  , set him up , but his stake was paltry compared with betting even at the dogs in Belfast then , every night .  Different times , different scenes , but all authenticated . Gone forever though .
Report Ozymandius January 9, 2015 11:46 AM GMT
kavvie, would you accept a cheque for half from Kinger now, and the balance say, later in the year?
Report kavvie January 9, 2015 11:49 AM GMT
and i was ridiculed here for telling about the guy who had 800k on one in the 80s/90s.  40k during the war would be a lot more than 800k in the 90s..i seen a few northern boys in the curragh one time..betting in 10ks...i assumed maybe wrongly subverisive links..
Report kavvie January 9, 2015 11:50 AM GMT
that sounds ok oz..will you arrange it?!?
Report Ozymandius January 9, 2015 11:54 AM GMT
I'll try, he says he will throw in a set of GAA nets by way of recompense also.  To support the development of the game at grassroots level in the Whest.
Report kavvie January 9, 2015 11:56 AM GMT
appreciated..sure when were not using them on the pitchs we can poach a few salmon..
Report Kelly January 9, 2015 11:57 AM GMT
When I was growing up in and around Belfast , no one EVER talked about the Titanic , Ozy . Although it was built in Belfast , and my grandfather worked on installing the engines in it , no one in my experience ever talked about it , reckon some knew the inner workings of the "Yard" better than the media .  My grandfather had to scarper pretty quick twice when he worked there , despite the cover his name and his dwelling place gave him , tempers were easily risen via rumour and adherence to the "crown ".
Report Kelly January 9, 2015 12:08 PM GMT
Kavvie , not sure who would have laid bets like that in the eighties . My friend was the biggest layer then , and from memory the biggest bet he laid was £25,000 on a 2/5 shot at the Curragh ( beaten , hats in the air . Told me in the seventies that the biggest cash bet he ever laid was £7k on a 4/7 shot at Roscommon , farmer with the legendary brown paper parcel ( won ).

No doubt there were bookies who took big bets from selected customers , and one of Irelands richest used to punt quite heavily on his own horses , but it was pin money to him relatively speaking . Asked for 10k on his horse at 10/1 in a nothing race at one of our smaller tracks in the late eighties , 30 secs before the off , the bookie laid him £5k at 10/1 .  Same firm wouldn't lay you 1k nowadays unless they could blow it back down the line and guarantee a profit via exchange land . Different times .
Report kavvie January 9, 2015 12:11 PM GMT
the bookie owed the guy  well over a mill.it was in that context it was taken.
Report pa lapsy January 9, 2015 12:16 PM GMT
Think you got Liam Cashman spot on Tolmi,did a book at the dogs in the Western Rd. before he had a shop and sponsored dog racing after.Boardmarkers were used til he closed down a couple of years ago. Big part of his business was cross the board doubles and distance bets with the fav. Used to get fierce information and wasn't adverse to doing the town particulary in the 80's. Had a run in with one of his sons(P) over a bet and got no satisfaction,never bet there again,his other son(K) was sound and think he is driving a taxi now.
Going a bit further back in Cork, Fergie Keane had a few offices,O Farrell brothers(one went on to have Jamesons who mostly sold out to PP though think they still have an office) had the office Cashman bought in Dillons Cross. Gibneys had an office in Washington St/St Main St.,a load of one men operaters which i can't remember their names with offices in Gillabbey St(Ryan?). Two Dickensian offices i remember would have been at the corner of Evergreen Rd./Summerhill sth. and one that was opposite Fergie Keanes Shandon St. office.
Amazing changes over time,rare you would see a race and form was done through reading (Man on the spot in the chronicleLove) though your horse was never beat with the extel commentary til it was over.
Marked a board myself for a little while,shocking pay but i'd have done it for nothing.
Report Kelly January 9, 2015 12:24 PM GMT
Accept that kavvie . Heard stories emanating in late eighties regarding another of the bigger layers ( from the North ) .  Went to Listowel apparently owing some punter (s ? ) over a quarter of a million , and by the end of the meeting was ahead overall with debts all paid . Hearsay admittedly , but source was trustworthy normally . Used to teach locally before his bookie career took off . I did see him taking bets of 2k and 3k unflinchingly on ordinarly races at Listowel and the likes in those days . Turnover , percentages , last race syndrome , alcohol etc all part of the mix in relationship between bookies , punters , and their money then . Nowadays its all bean counting .
Report Kelly January 9, 2015 12:31 PM GMT
Best write ups I remember used to be in the Irish Press  way back in the sixties before there was a proliferation of racing publications . My Dublin landlord was involved somehow , his forte was breeding , and you could see his hand in the write ups particularly for races where stamina was the big factor .  Think that column appeared as "Formost " .

Tipped me Santa Claus for the Derby before its prowess was discernible to the general public .  Had a lot of fun that winter nibbling ante post ( and the trainer was I believe sleeping in the stable and buying up related progeny ) . And there was also Scobie .
Report frank60 January 9, 2015 3:41 PM GMT
Santa claus won both derbys Kelly along with the irish 2000g, I remember he lost the king george at odds of 2/13, as you say one of the best horses of the 2oth century, it was nice that you got a early present from Santa,Grin
Report wildmanfromborneo January 9, 2015 3:46 PM GMT
Kelly whoever tipped you Santa Claus for the Derby before his prowess was discernible to the general public must have done so before he ever ran.
Santa Claus was ante post favourite for the Derby after his first race on the Curragh,a position he never relinquished.
Report baNjackst January 9, 2015 4:10 PM GMT
in early nineties I placed a soccer accum in stanleys bookmakers in navan, 6 teams in u.k and 2 in spain. The 6 teams in u.k won and I was waiting on the 2 spanish teams. Back then it was very hard to get instant result and very little knowledge of how the games were even going. Anyway to cut story short thankfully both teams won. I went into collect early monday. As I handed in the docket the girl who I assume was waiting for me handed me 2 weekend coupons (a) u.k coupon (b) european coupon. She then informed me that both clearly stated that you had to do a minimum 3 selections. Therefore they were only paying me 3k punts. I handed the girl back the european coupon and showed her that a few u.k matches were also listed on it ( although none of the teams I done ) I politely asked for my docket back and told them if I didn't pay the full amount I'd see them in court. I also asked the girl if she could ask headquarters if unknown to me the u.k had mysteriously left europe. I also stated that the coupons weren't big enough to put all european matches on it and that wasn't my fault. Stanleys Hq Liverpool contacted me and again informed me I wasn't entitled to the 2 spanish teams on my accum. I kept my head with the arrogant so and so and said I see him in court. I was later contacted and asked to send photo i.d and proof of address to Liverpool and the girl in Navan was requested to sent camera of placement of bet. Both were done as I hadn't a problem letting em know who was going to take them to court. 20 phone calls later I was informed I would be receiving a letter from liverpool. 2 weeks later the letter arrive and read that they agreed to make an ex gratia payment to the full amount only on production of same letter. I duly brought the letter and got my 11k punts. I asked the question if either both the spanish teams lost would the staff have told me I was entitled to a 6 team accum to the amount of 3k. Who were they trying to cod and would some people have accepted the jibber.
Report frank60 January 9, 2015 4:15 PM GMT
http://www.britishpathe.com/video/the-irish-derby-2                    Santa claus winning the irish derby 50years ago
Report frank60 January 9, 2015 4:18 PM GMT
Nice story BAN, WELL DONE
Report workrider January 9, 2015 4:20 PM GMT
Smashing story Bandjasked , love the , and if the UK has left Europe please let me know...Laugh
Report wildmanfromborneo January 9, 2015 4:23 PM GMT
There is a lesson to be learned from baNjackst post ( fair play to him for not backing down ) and that is dont let them bounce you into taking less than you were due.
If bookies sense any weakness they will always try it on.

baNjackst other point is equally valid in that had one of the Spanish soccer teams lost that would have meant a crumpled docket,how many sleepers to they get with these arcane bogus rules.
Report paulie wallnuts January 9, 2015 4:28 PM GMT
I remember being in a shop in Tallaght back in the 90's.....a regular who was never short of  a word and fancied himself as a bit of a judge .....was as usual doing his bolloxxx....suddenly the door opened and his missus was there and she wasn't happy....a row ensued over as you guessed it ....money.....and by the conversation which was clearly audible it was clear that the unfortunate woman was short a few quid for the shopping.....and the husband had lost his dole...childrens allowance....and the daughters unmarried mothers.....when she left with tears in her eyes he turned round to his buddy and said" them women would break your heart".....
Report frank60 January 9, 2015 4:35 PM GMT
I hope for the woman sake they have parted Paulie and her life is better,.. but  I doubt it
Report paulie wallnuts January 9, 2015 4:37 PM GMT
No frank shes still with him.....I even saw the two of them strolling along the beach in Portmarnock many years later.....
I don't know how he put up with her all those years....
Report kingrat January 9, 2015 9:09 PM GMT
jesus christ!  20% tax

how could you play with that carry on,ye had no chance.when did that go out?

hey kelly,did you know curley?i read his book,was it you that broke into his premises over night to alter a betting slip?Laugh

give us the story on what happened there.
Report Kelly January 10, 2015 12:03 AM GMT
Do not know Curley , kingrat .  I do know a good bit about him though , a  family relation was in his class in school  , and as the saying goes "we know his seed and breed" . There is a signed book of his somewhere kicking about , but its not on my wish list .

When the tax ( in the south ) was up to 20% nobody bet legally  , it was akin to prohibition .  The pools were bigger then , and I think there was a fair bit of smuggling of coupons across border to be posted in north .  Never did pools myself .
Report Kelly January 10, 2015 12:17 AM GMT
Dont remember exactly when he tipped me Santa Claus , wildman .  It was the only horse he ever tipped me though , I started backing it for the Derby every time I saw it over the general odds  , and if I won any decent money I invested it on Santa Claus . Was delighted when Scobie got the mount , although I reckon any decent jockey would have won on it that day .

Started a great run of fancied ( including Irish ) horses winning Derbys that , Sea Bird , Sir Ivor , Nijinsky , Mill Reef , all hacked up . To cap it I also backed Snow Knight ( 50/1) in 1974 . I have not had a similar feeling recently re Derby winners , except for Aidans good ones ( not all his Derby winners would I describe as good uns) .

Vincent was the King though .
Report Pazan March 8, 2015 10:22 PM GMT
Great thread. I love how nearly all of the stories took place in Ireland.
Report Kelly March 8, 2015 11:16 PM GMT
Irish forum ,Pazan .

I am sure there are similar stories from other parts , and the tax regimes re betting in the South of Ireland were punitive until the 1970's ( approximately) . North was different , our regulations were more like those in the rest of the UK --but not exactly .  You still cant have a bet in a bookies shop in the North on a Sunday .
Report freddiek March 8, 2015 11:31 PM GMT
'You still cant have a bet in a bookies shop in the North on a Sunday'

mad isnt it..
Report TheNorfolkMafia July 15, 2015 12:39 PM BST
ttt

Happy
Report RoyalAcademy July 15, 2015 1:35 PM BST
probably posted this yarn before.................
Many moons ago after recent introduction of Sunday racing here...

A friend did a four-horse accum and covered three on Saturday and one on Sunday afternoon

The 3 Sat nags won and a tenner rolled up to something over six grand rolling over to the Sunday beast. After a pub conclave a "delegation" arrived at the Curragh early on Sunday morning and a fairly informal meeting took place with trainer of said beast. Regrettably, as my friend was very confident he would collect 50k on Sunday, the horse was declared a non-runner that afternoon and thanks to the rules of racing he got paid on the treble.
Report Eddie Batt July 16, 2015 1:42 PM BST
When Ladbrokes opened up locally in the late 80's they employed a lovely manageress-unfortunately she didn't have a clue.Friends of mine convinced her that a draw in a football match was the equivalent of a non runner,place pot perms were heavily discounted and blatant price mistakes were hammered.When the boys were under pressure to get a few quid to go out on Saturday night strokes would be pulled.
The only time I blatantly robbed them was when Mr Brooks won at Tipperary -the  morningprice came through at 5/1 instead of 5/4.I think that was the night when Jim Bolger refused to let the owners jockey ride the horse.
Report Eddie Batt July 16, 2015 1:50 PM BST
Reverse forecast doubles were another earner when I was in college-few cashiers knew how to work the combinations.Myself and the brother tipped away at that for 18 months before the security department at Powers sent a fax regarding criminal activity ( friendly boardmarker tipped us off).
There are some guys who post here occasionally who could tell the story of how Powers were still taking bets on an Olympic event in 1992 an hour after it finished.
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