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Meade And Mullins Still Avoiding Each Other In Bumpers.

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Replies: 204
By:
Rocketfingers
When: 14 Oct 13 13:29
Sorry Wildman too busy dealing with all the messages of congratulations for landing my big punt. Ok so what was the question again?
By:
Ozymandius
When: 14 Oct 13 13:30
Laugh
By:
wildmanfromborneo
When: 14 Oct 13 13:34
That short attention span again not alone can you not remember the question you can't remember all the "ITK " nonsense.

You do however remind me of a faithful hound begging to be patted on the head for some good deed,you must have been starved of affection as a young lad.
By:
Rocketfingers
When: 14 Oct 13 13:55
I'm actually kinda embarrassed Ozy brought that thread back up as i totally forgot about it. Anyway that's life i suppose i have to live with the attention and the adulations.
By:
dj876
When: 16 Oct 13 22:14
Any thoughts On Apache Stronghold versus Clonard lad today??
By:
dj876
When: 16 Oct 13 22:17
wildmanfromborneo • October 12, 2013 11:40 PM BST
"Inside track and firm ground done for him today
The next time Apache Stronghold runs I am confident Willie Mullins won't take him on."
By:
workrider
When: 16 Oct 13 22:22
Any thoughts on the ground , i think the clerks wear bowler hats if its a Flat meeting then if its N.H. They wear a flat cap , then they decide if its good to firm or good to yielding ....Laugh
By:
wildmanfromborneo
When: 17 Oct 13 00:12
I have to concede that to you Dj876 and accept your earlier point although I have stated it is not an exact science.

There is a bit of serendipidity on this thread as I have come across another pattern,the eight horses I mentioned previously all started favourite and all won,the two today Apache Stronghold and Shesafoxylady both started favourite and both won.
By:
dj876
When: 17 Oct 13 00:25
I presume you backed Shesafoxylady (infamous aftertime thread I believe).WPM has had 4 bumper runners in last 14 days I think -3 winners.You could easily point to the Giggy and Meade horse tomorrow.I don't think Willie Mullins has any runner on the card tomorrow.

As I have already said -although they get on,I just don't think Noel Meade registers with WPM anymore.
Interesting to see how it might develop in a couple of weeks time when winter ground settles in but still very subjective in terms of motive.
By:
tobywong.
When: 17 Oct 13 00:33
dj don't bother yr ass with the gob s h it es ffs , rise above man
By:
wildmanfromborneo
When: 17 Oct 13 00:39
I am so used to solo runs in maiden hurdles that I was surprised at how competitive that one was today,it made for a decent race.

I hope you were punting at Punchestown as it looked easy enough to pick winners.

Another bit of damage to my theory was done by Shesafoxylady,she was unlucky last time had far and away the best form so I was expecting the Meade men to combine and punt the living daylights out of it but she was remarkably weak on here.The two main dangers were taken out Railway Adella and Henry's Girl yet she drifted to near enough 6/4 at one stage.
By:
Distant View
When: 17 Oct 13 00:42
Out of interest dj876 how many bumper horses would you think Willie will have this coming season?

I suspect that the numbers will be well down. He obviously has been buying some very nice stores and ex pointers but in the past he used to buy a batch of horses and then sell to existing owners, syndicates etc. He used to bear the risk of selling on himself (not that there really was one) but the number of horses that raced in Jacqui's colours in recent years showed that this was becoming much tougher and the death of Costello did not help either.

Now he has the backing of a few huge owners he no longer needs to do this. He is buying so many horses now for much higher amounts with the certain backing of these owners. Many of these are from France and are coming from both codes, while he will no doubt be in a position to pick up plenty of the premium stock at the upcoming sales at Tatts and Goffs. I have no idea of precise numbers but between Ricci, Wylie and Gigginstown they must account for over 80 horses at this stage and very possibly it is closer to the 100 mark. A lot of these will make their debut for Mullins over hurdles rather than bumpers.

I think Willie used to have around the 60 mark in terms of bumper horses each season, but I suspect that current numbers are 2/3 of that now? It should create more opportunities in these races for other trainers, which is a positive but the strength of his overall team of horses is simply incredible.
By:
Distant View
When: 17 Oct 13 00:43
Out of interest dj876 how many bumper horses would you think Willie will have this coming season?

I suspect that the numbers will be well down. He obviously has been buying some very nice stores and ex pointers but in the past he used to buy a batch of horses and then sell to existing owners, syndicates etc. He used to bear the risk of selling on himself (not that there really was one) but the number of horses that raced in Jacqui's colours in recent years showed that this was becoming much tougher and the death of Costello did not help either.

Now he has the backing of a few huge owners he no longer needs to do this. He is buying so many horses now for much higher amounts with the certain backing of these owners. Many of these are from France and are coming from both codes, while he will no doubt be in a position to pick up plenty of the premium stock at the upcoming sales at Tatts and Goffs. I have no idea of precise numbers but between Ricci, Wylie and Gigginstown they must account for over 80 horses at this stage and very possibly it is closer to the 100 mark. A lot of these will make their debut for Mullins over hurdles rather than bumpers.

I think Willie used to have around the 60 mark in terms of bumper horses each season, but I suspect that current numbers are 2/3 of that now? It should create more opportunities in these races for other trainers, which is a positive but the strength of his overall team of horses is simply incredible.
By:
dj876
When: 17 Oct 13 01:00
Valid and interesting points.
All the Supreme Syndicate horses tend to run in bumpers but a decent percentage of them are flat bred and good ground horses-many already having run over the summer in weaker bumpers.

Although Gigginstown avoid the Festival bumpers at Cheltenham and Puncestown-a lot of them still have enough ability to win bumpers even though they're future stayers.Will there be any change in their policy with developments with Pat Doyle.

For a Financier,Rich Ricci certainly doesn't believe in diversification.A lot of similar types all in the one yard.
For all the faults of JP's operation there has been a concerted attempt to target all the big prize handicaps in recent times to a greater extent.

Fascinating season to see Willie Mullins targeting more prize money in the UK at Weekends.Sir des Champs should be targeted at the King George rather than a possible slog in the Lexus with Bobs Worth.
By:
Distant View
When: 17 Oct 13 01:25
I cannot see any reason why Gigginstown would change but if he is bringing in French recruits for them then they are unlikely to be eligible for bumpers. Obviously the ex-pointers will get their education in the bumpers but at the moment I don't know how many he has.

Many of the Ricci horses are horses that have shown loads of potential in their races in France, or at least have hinted at it, commanded plenty of money and will start off in hurdle races. He does not seem to buy stores although can pick up pointers like Faugheen, Vedettariat and Clondaw Court. He also seems to buy that have shown plenty in bumpers like Moyle Park and Totally Dominant, but the majority of his horses are likely to start in hurdle races.

The Supreme operation seems to be the nearest thing to what Willie used to have where he had loads of horses in the yard/field awaiting owners and I am sure there are plenty to come through that link again, but overall I would think that Willie does not need to be buying on spec and finding owners for them. He has moved to a higher end of the market now and needs to take few risks himself as he is carrying more clout at all the sales than any other trainer.

No doubt he will still win plenty of bumpers during the year but mopping up these races with many quite cheaply bought horses that were the product of his keen eye and excellent training is probably a thing of the past. Maybe the numbers do not and will not back up what I am saying.
By:
workrider
When: 17 Oct 13 18:48
Wildmanfromborneo , was talking to a big punter today , without me saying a word about anything on this tread , he basically said word for word what you said re NOEL AND WILLIE ..I had to look at him twice to make sure it wasn't you....
By:
dj876
When: 17 Oct 13 22:37
Another example of what Distant View was referring to last night in the opener at Downpatrick.
The Ricci runner has already won twice on the flat in France and as DV said this could see a reduction in the WPM Bumper runners.Noel Meade has a challenger in this maiden hurdle-reckon they're conspiring to sabotage your theory WildmanWink. They also clash in the bumper-weak race.

The race I am most looking forward to is the Novice chase at Cheltenham even tho it's a 3 horse race-should be fascinating-no bet but I hope Rebel Fitz obliges.

Much better racing across the water this weekend in both codes with the ground vital in particular at Newmarket for Champions Day.
By:
wildmanfromborneo
When: 17 Oct 13 22:55
Last year the same thing happened,I was saying they never take each other on and was on a bit of a roll bumper after bumper with each of them stepping in and out then in Downpatrick Ballylongford took on Coleur France I think .

I know I backed Coleur and laid Ballylongford and managed to get done on the double.

An extraordinary place to introduce anything half decent so must presume Renneti isint up too much,neither of the bumper horses are much use either.
By:
Ozymandius
When: 17 Oct 13 23:02
and of course it's not an exact science...which roughly translates as...no matter how many examples that you come up with to counteract the theory, I will still cling on to it nevertheless.
By:
dj876
When: 18 Oct 13 00:13
Ascot thanks Pa-same mistake twice and I have been looking at videos for that card and Cheltenham for the last while.Crazy
By:
neill d
When: 18 Oct 13 00:23
Really interesting stuff DV, Gary O'Brien was talking to Willie and the point came up again that he doesn't really use the grass to train but sticks to what I think looks like Fibresand a la Southwell. Why does Willie do this? (he could surely afford to maintain a grass gallop?) It can't be the land as didn't his father train classic winners from there. Is it that he thinks horses improve when switched from the sand to turf on race day? or that sand is best to get horses fit?

Re the Willie and Noel Meade thing, I'd say Meade might have been something of a mentor to Mullins when he was on the way up and I'd find "the theory" interesting. Meade is a charmer and probably the most charismatic figure in Irish racing... Maybe willie doesn't like sticking it to someone he really admired on the way up.

Meade has had one hell of a career, but a bit like his stable jockey... he might feel he could have done more. He has had some rotten luck with horses in recent years. The maiden winner he had yesterday looks a proper horse at least.
By:
wildmanfromborneo
When: 18 Oct 13 12:13
Of course  its not an exact science but we can just point to the evidence.

Willie Mullins has withdrawn his bumper horse in Downpatrick today probably because of the ground but the result still is a free run for the Noel Meade runner.
By:
Ozymandius
When: 18 Oct 13 12:18
will you back the Meade horse?
By:
Bigwillystyle
When: 18 Oct 13 12:21
Neil D, Mullins father didnt train Classic winners from where Willie trains.  Paddy trained in Gorsebridge.  Willie trains on the Carlow side of Bagenasltown.
Meade had a very decent stable at one stage but he wouldnt look twice at you back in the day.  Even if you had a few horses with him he wouldnt give you the time of day.  What goes around comes around!!!
By:
wildmanfromborneo
When: 18 Oct 13 13:02
Ozymandius your question shows you have failed to grasp any part of this thread.

I never thought a low attention span and failure to understand the simplest of thread was contagious its either that or your Rocketfingers in disguise.
By:
Ozymandius
When: 18 Oct 13 13:06
You seem incapable of answering a straightforward question.  Talk about a shifty character.
By:
Ozymandius
When: 18 Oct 13 13:09
No doubt you will back it 'if the money comes'. Yawn.  You and the rest of the country.
By:
pa lapsy
When: 18 Oct 13 13:16
Not a bad ploy,Meades last couple of beaten bumper paper favs have been fairly weak(Outlawed Tunes and Didn,titellya) Not dramatically but noticeable,I,m not for a moment suggesting anything untoward.
By:
Ozymandius
When: 18 Oct 13 13:23
Already short enough as it is,Pa, and if one is suggesting, as Borneo is, that Mullins horse was withdrawn specifically to give Meades horse a free run, then presumably you would not be waiting for further price contraction.  Very few genuine contenders in a weak looking race.
By:
wildmanfromborneo
When: 18 Oct 13 13:28
Ozymandius you have been destroyed by Keen Leader who basically writes out the docket for you.

Pa Lapsy gets it,Outlawed Tunes and Didntitellyou were very weak because the forces didnt combine,they did combine on Angie Balafre in Roscommon.

Races to me are a puzzle and one I try to solve you just want to be told what will win,its rarely that simple but if that's what you want you should be sucking up to Pa Lapsy as he is the one churning them out.
By:
Ozymandius
When: 18 Oct 13 13:33
i's rarely that simple Cry

Reassuring to see you have the courage of your convictions to back your own theories.
By:
Ozymandius
When: 18 Oct 13 13:35
and as for Lapsy churning out winners even he would be embarrassed by this patently false statement.
By:
pa lapsy
When: 18 Oct 13 13:43
It,s not as weak a race as you think Ozy, Jazz Concerto did run a reasonable race in a probably fair bumper but was still a fair bit of the winner. Swantykay is very short in the betting(5/2) must be well thought of. Smilers run behind Curley Bill is on the face of it decent form considering how some behind have run subsequently,disappointed since granted. No gimme for J C, shrewder punters than me may be able to solve it before the off.
By:
Ozymandius
When: 18 Oct 13 17:55
Not sure how long Mullins is going to keep giving Meade a free run like that if they repeatedly miserably fail to take advantage.

#codswallop
By:
wildmanfromborneo
When: 18 Oct 13 17:59
You waited all day for this but you would have been better off trying to follow the thread,also better if you read Pa Lapsys contribution.
By:
Ozymandius
When: 18 Oct 13 18:03
Pa just confirmed what all could see, that on paper it was a three horse race.  His theory held up....
By:
wildmanfromborneo
When: 18 Oct 13 18:07
He did a lot more than that.told you it wasn't such a weak race and stated Smiler had the best form.

I know it hurts you but that Pa Lapsy is on the ball even when he gives a race a desultory look he gets it right.
By:
Ozymandius
When: 18 Oct 13 18:12
shrewder punters than me may be able to solve it before the off.

Hard for Pa to get it wrong with a comment like that.
By:
pa lapsy
When: 18 Oct 13 18:16
Didn,t back anything in the race,it was academic to me,just thought your statement regarding it being a weak race was wrong.
By:
neill d
When: 18 Oct 13 21:49
Didn't know that BWS, always thought it was handed down, I was just about properly following horses for Meade's last few years on top. That attitude certainly bit him with Pandorama, no one listened to him then...probably would have a few years before. Jazz Messenger, Iktitaf and Go Native were 3 that stick in my mind that he lost. Cardinal Hill going back further.... still should have his bobs well made.
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