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wildmanfromborneo
08 Jan 12 20:51
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Date Joined: 30 Nov 10
| Topic/replies: 21,252 | Blogger: wildmanfromborneo's blog
The people that run Irish racing are oblivious to the recession,they overpay themselves and give out ludicrous prize money.In Thurles yesterday Quel Esprit had a school around and received 18,525 jimmy o goblins for so doing.Today at Naas Dermot Weld withdrew Silver Concorde from the bumper because Willie Mullins told him he wouldn`t beat his,that shows there are too many opportunities for certain horses.The way to beat this is to tailor prize money to the amount of runners,the less that run the less you get,this might force trainers to take each other on.Willie Mullins is following in the tradition of the great Paddy Sleator talk up your ordinary horses to scare off the opposition say nothing about the real good ones.

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Replies: 206
By:
ReimerpYsatnaf
When: 08 Jan 12 20:55
It is not Willie or the owners of Quel Esprit's fault not many where willing to take them on. Why should they suffer and lose €€€€€ because others are not willing to take them on??
By:
wildmanfromborneo
When: 08 Jan 12 21:10
I accept that but it is the fault of the race programmers for not forcing others to take on Quel Esprit,they just wait for another easy touch.The handicapper is also at fault in that he murders anyone who takes on the good horses and rewards the ones who hide in the novice chases like Glam Gerry.Dinglemick gave a great post on this one outlining his novice chase runs and exhorting all to feed on the 9/2 for his handicap debut,backed into 13/8 and despite two dreadful mistakes hacked up,only one who was fooled there was the handicapper.
Torremuelle had a hard race in a competitive handicap chase on the same card and received just over five grand,i feel he deserved more and Quel Esprit deserved less.
By:
JayTrumpOldTomDubbl
When: 08 Jan 12 21:53
Yes I agree that the horses that run up close behind the likes of Quel Esprit are then murdered by the handicapper and lose all chance of a win for the forseeable future...even though the class winner has won beating you by 8legths doing handsprings you are murdered for being so close.....a perfect example of this was a Gigginstown horse in a maiden hurdle at the last Cork meeting shot away from the opposition up the straight and won by a mile, but then in that situation all the trainers knew that he was going to be difficult to beat and didn't want to be too near him as somewhere along the line they would suffer for that kind of form.... better to be beaten a distance......Also with regard to prizemoney imho its away out of line here when you look at the money across the water...... we regularly see N Henderson run in midweek races for a win prize of less than 2grand ......compare this to the two maiden hurdles run at Thurles yesterday...the 2.10pm for a win prize of over 5k and the mares hurdle for a win pot of over 5k and this a mares hurdle......the Grade 1 Tolworth hurdle at Sandown yesterday was worth barely over 17k sterling .... thats a Grade 1 at Sandown .....I believe that the same fields would have turned up at Thurles for half the money..... its the same on the flat.... most of the races at Wolverhampton and Lingfield last Friday were for a win of 2k or just under....yet we had a similar class horse running at Dundalk for something like a minimum win pot of 4830 Euro..... the likes of Aragorn Rouge runs in a maiden for a win prize of 5520 Euro...incredible does anyone think that he'd be at home in his stable if the win pot was 2500 ? the same Aragorn Rouge has had 10 runs no win, twice second and twice third and has earned over 4500 !!! that was prior to last Friday night where he got a further 1280euro for being 2nd ....incredible and I agree with wildman.... the powers that be are clueless.......Prizemoney here way out of line.........
By:
ReimerpYsatnaf
When: 08 Jan 12 22:04
Let me get this right lads, you are complaining that prize money is too high in Ireland. Well jeez that is a new one on me, i've heard people complain about prize money (mainly in dogs) is rubbish and too low but never heard anyone complain about prize money being too high.

Also what you say can't work Wildman, so if i enter my horse in a race and it scares away all the opposition bar 1 or 2 i shouldn't get the full prizemoney. That means i am being punished for running my horse, please explain  how that makes any sense?
By:
Deplasterer
When: 08 Jan 12 22:04
Lads, is it not the fact that prizemoney in uk is so pis s poor rather than being overstated herek?
By:
Distant View
When: 08 Jan 12 22:09
Happened in the Comerford Cakes this year PF?

Prize money was reduced when the comp did not fill the original wish list.

I personally think some of the pots at the Galway festival are scandalously high. The main point being that is being partly funded or very significantly funded by the tax payer and there are some huge pots for very moderate races. The sales races themselves are different.
By:
wildmanfromborneo
When: 08 Jan 12 22:10
The prize money is put up by the state and a bankrupt state at that.Hospitals closing down our grandchildren emigrating but keep the state subvention for racing at all costs.
By:
Distant View
When: 08 Jan 12 22:12
Regarding Galway, it did come down quite a bit last year.
By:
sinndar001
When: 08 Jan 12 22:45
Out of line with the Uk? The Uk encourage corruption with the low levels of prize money. Prize money is not the problem here.As was said in a recent blog on the Betfair blog I challenge anyone to give me the name of 2 non triers in Dundalk during the winter series. I've seen people stating that Avanti Albert was an example. That person would wanna take a long look at themselves and their betting P&L and that horse as he is a horse who travels really well but finds nothing and therefore can make a jock look like a right fool. What is he been set up for? Tell me? I'll be surprised if he wins more than one race b4 the end of his career. The prize money which is 7k minimum for a race in Dundalk is what causes there to be less instances of hookery and if only we could convince the doubters to have more confidence in the product and therefore bet with confidence on it we would be generate money for the improvement of Irish racing be it thru the tote, bookies or the upcoming levy on online operators.   The problem imo is that there is too much racing and therefore is less competitive. The bookmakers are the cause of  more racing being held as they have tied the HRI in a knot where the more racing they put on, the more money that is paid to the courses/ goes back into racing coffers (whether there is more generated or not I don't know). The courses are bulling for fixtures as they get something like 3k a race now or is it 30k a meeting I can't remember. I love Dundalk and the racing that is there but it is being held for the wrong reasons i.e. to generate profits for the bookmakers. The  off course bookmakers (who if u don't already realise I think are Satan) are sharp business folk and have created a vicious circle imo. Take a look at the maiden hurdles or the bumpers or the beg chases where there never used to be small fields. It was hard to get a run in the first two I mentioned now its 7 horse bumper in Naas today and a 7 horse maiden hurdle. We will end up like the UK with small uncompetitive fields and which makes for a poor betting product and because of too much racing will probably be unable to sustain the prize money levels which could see us descend to UK levels of prize money.

We have some of the best racing in the world here, the best jocks, trainers, horses, courses and yet we have fools running it. Up until recently we couldn't get an updated going report every day leading up to a major metting. We still can't be sure what distance a race is being run over due to the movement of rails. I would wonder with there being an outer course on Champions stakes day  in Leopardstown was that track measured with a trundle wheel to make sure the big races were run at exactly 8 & 10 f. I honestly would have my doubts which is a complete joke. 
Don't get me wrong there is some non triers and of course when they had the chance to stand up and nail a blatant non trier during the summer they failed. I blame the Turf Club for this lack of confidence in Irish racing. There's always loads of threads on the horse racing part of this forum complaining how hookie our sport is. Some of us including me would class a lot of the people who inhabit that forum as nutters but those 'nutters' have money and are prepared to bet on Irish racing esp if they could have confidence in it. I honestly think that when an instance like the The Real Article is not dealt with properly it create an opportunity for other races to be questioned and filters its way thru the betting community. Sorry for going off topic but it is inter linked in fairness.
By:
Heisenberg.
When: 09 Jan 12 01:01
when was the last horse to even try and win a bumper against a Willie Mullins horse ?? Thomas Edison ??
Time to take this great sport back from the Parasite bookmakers
By:
irish_guy_13
When: 09 Jan 12 01:36
I challenge anyone to give me the name of 2 non triers in Dundalk during the winter series.


a race or what? ffs.sweet jesus.
By:
irish_guy_13
When: 09 Jan 12 01:44
and you wmfb, f off, looking for attention the whole time. and racing does not need the government, the government needs racing, its industry and jobs, ten's of thousand at that. the money it creates is not fully understood.

you come across as one sad individual.
By:
paddywhacker1970
When: 09 Jan 12 11:07
Jesus, this thread beats all.

Prize money is what keeps Irish racing as straight as it is. You can howl and scream with the rest of the clueless rabble about how hookie Irish racing is all you like, but the professionals know that Irish racing is significantly straighter than British racing. It isn't 100% clean, nothing is, but it is the prize money that encourages trainers to play the game straight on the whole.

One thing I would agree with is that the prize money for handicaps is too high, especially the better handicaps. Handicaps are the second tier of racing and by putting up massive pots for the likes of the Galway Hurdle/Plate or Paddy Power Chase, it encourages trainers to mess about with nice horses, which should be discouraged. If it were my call, I would significantly reduce the pots for big handicaps and spread it evenly among lower class handicaps (the majority of low class handicappers are what they are and the smaller yards need to have a chance of getting paid) and maidens (prize money for Group/Graded races is high enough).

It isn't Willie Mullins fault that there are very few trainers capable of competing with him. He is by far the best trainer in the country and he has been getting the best ammo for many years now. What do you expect in that situation only dominance? Someone said people aren't taking on his bumper horses. Are you having a laugh?? They are taking him on, they just aren't good enough to beat them. WPM has a yard full of well-bred horses and only 10 of those need to the above average for him to dominate the bumper scene, which he is.

Someone said there is too much racing. I disagree. I think we could have two meetings a week at Dundalk during the winter. Frankly, I couldn't give a toss if they are put on to benefit bookies as long as the bookies continue to pay their share of the prize money. I'm no bookies apologist, but whether we like it or not, they are partners with racing and say what you like about HRI, but they played hard ball with the books on the winter season and they eventually got them to contribute to the prize money directly.

I would also echo the poster that asked to name non-triers at Dundalk this winter season. To those shouting and roaring, man up and name some names. The winter season has been a roaring success, the competiteness of the racing has been excellent and it has all been straight up, primarily because the prize money is good and opportunities are limited. How could anyone afford not to try when there is only one suitable race a month for their horse? Long live Irish racing.
By:
lookingforthewildman
When: 09 Jan 12 11:43
This is what this forum is all about.....people ranting about non triers who havent a clue......dundalk racing is trash but is much straighter than its British counterpart which wouldnt be hard......one of the most obvious non triers of the season ran in Ireland lately......started less than 2/1 and no way was it off.....hardly a surprise that the sharp minds that do be on here didnt even notice it....
By:
paddywhacker1970
When: 09 Jan 12 11:54
Name and shame. If you don't want to name the horse, name the trainer and we can work it out ourselves.
By:
wildmanfromborneo
When: 09 Jan 12 12:01
Why are any of ye against a discussion,i understand the nocturnal foul mouthed Irish guy 13s rage[incapable of creating a thread so just moan at others].I agree mostly with Sinndar001 excellent post and don`t think it went off topic at all,i also agree with paddywhacker1970 about triers in Dundalk.I don`t have a problem with horses having an easy introduction which some here misconstrue as being non triers and i find Dundalk maidens very competitive not only because of the high prize money but they sell very well because of their ability to handle all weather conditions.Willie Mullins was given a free run in the Naas bumper yesterday by Dermot Weld and presumably Silver Concorde will run in a four year old bumper shortly and what will the betting be that Willie won`t have a runner in it.The Westener Boy won like a champion at Fairyhouse with no Willie Mullins trained horse in opposition don`t tell me that is not choreographed.Earlier in the season Noel Meade horses were dominating bumpers with no opposition from Willie Mullins now the favour is being reciprocated.The reason they can do this is they have so many opportunities.
I agree about Willie Mullins being the best trainer in the country[if you want to frighten your trainer threaten to send your horse to Willie that will put him saying his prayers]but if a trainer takes on one of his good ones he is promptly murdered by the handicapper.A man who handicaps solely by ratings is not a proper handicapper.I have followed Irish racing all my life and i love it,you can`t beat a days racing and i go as often as i can and pay in so as paddywhacker1970 says Long live Irish racing.
By:
paddywhacker1970
When: 09 Jan 12 12:10
I disagree with you about the bumper situation. I would be 100% sure that DKW pulled out his horse purely on account of the ground and I would be very cautious of suggesting that dodging goes on in bumpers in general. The one I always remember is Knocknabooley, a very highly rated horse of Willie's, took on Bold Jack Donohue, a very highly regarded horse of Tony's, in a bumper at their home track of Gowran Park. I know for a fact that both fancied the ears off their horses, but they had no problem taking each other on as it was close to Cheltenham and both wanted to win. In contrast with what you say, there aren't as many opportunities in bumpers at nice tracks as you think. The likes of Willie, Dermot or Noel aren't going to be afraid to take on anyone if they think they have a nice one. If trainers only ran horses when they thought they would win, there would be two runner fields every day of the week.
By:
wildmanfromborneo
When: 09 Jan 12 12:16
It will be interesting to see if Silver Concorde runs on bad ground and if Willie has a runner against him.
The one time i remember Weld taking on a Mullins good thing was at Naas i think the Mullins horse was Quadrillon the Weld horse was Rite of Passage oh if only we knew then what we know now.
By:
Deplasterer
When: 09 Jan 12 12:25
A few years back Tony Mullins took on a W Mullins hotpot (Fav champion bumper - can't recall name) with Aranleigh and duly beat it
then, and at cheltenham also, I think Aranleigh finished third from a bad McCoy ride that day at Chelt.
By:
lookingforthewildman
When: 09 Jan 12 12:38
Not going to name the horse or trainer paddywhacker.......if i did name trainer then the rest would be a formality even to the posters on here......just think its staggering when people are constantly alluding to injudicious efforts without any basis.......then one comes along that stevie wonder could see and they cant seem to be able to notice it.......all i can tell you there was no obvious drift and it sp'd less than 2/1.....
By:
paddywhacker1970
When: 09 Jan 12 12:41
Did he run again over Xmas and finish second in a good race?
By:
lookingforthewildman
When: 09 Jan 12 12:43
This horse ran after christmas but not in a good race......
By:
Distant View
When: 09 Jan 12 12:44
That was Mad Fish?
By:
paddywhacker1970
When: 09 Jan 12 12:50
I'll need another hint if I'm to get it.
By:
lookingforthewildman
When: 09 Jan 12 12:55
It ran more than once......
By:
paddywhacker1970
When: 09 Jan 12 12:58
You'll have to be more specific. I watch a lot of racing! It ran more than once since Xmas? Hurdler/chaser, handicapper/novice?
By:
lookingforthewildman
When: 09 Jan 12 13:04
Ran more than once since Xmas is right......going to leave it at that paddywhacker.....theres not that many meetings on over here so it wont be difficult to figure out......
By:
wildmanfromborneo
When: 09 Jan 12 13:04
Some years ago an owner i knew approached Ruby Walsh to ride his horse,he explained how good a beast he was and he was aiming for a big handicap that he was going to have an easy run which would bring him to perfect pitch for the main one,Rubys relpy was a classic when he is ready to win i am your man not til then.
I have liked him ever since.
Don`t understand the reluctance to name the perceived non trier.
By:
lookingforthewildman
When: 09 Jan 12 13:11
The reluctance stems from the fact that i cannot be 100% sure......maybe the jockey had a spasm and couldnt ride the horse......maybe he thought there was another circuit......maybe it was off but i very much doubt it.....the thing i find funny and it is funny that nobody even mentioned it on here.....just sums the place up dont it.....it did receive a mention on the horse racing forum alright.....
By:
paulie wallnuts
When: 09 Jan 12 13:36
MARLEY PARK????
By:
wildmanfromborneo
When: 09 Jan 12 13:42
For those old enough to remember Green Acres it seems Mr Kimble is alive and well.
Lookingforthewildman have the courage of your convictions and shed your timidity,no harm will befall you.
By:
paddywhacker1970
When: 09 Jan 12 13:42
To be fair, every favourite that gets beaten or any one that the rider doesn't hammer the ears off to finish fourth in Ireland is called out as a non jigger on the horse racing forum, so it would have been a miracle for one that in any way caught the eye to not be pointed out.
By:
paulie wallnuts
When: 09 Jan 12 13:44
IT CAN ONLY BE MARLAY PARK
By:
paddywhacker1970
When: 09 Jan 12 13:58
Marlay Park hasn't ran twice since Xmas. He ran at Xmas, then at Thurles. It was a bit eye-catching at Thurles, but he jumped terribly for the first half of the race. The jock steadily delivered him to within four lengths of the winner at the third last and he just couldn't match the winner from there. Nothing untoward there, IMO.
By:
lookingforthewildman
When: 09 Jan 12 14:02
A good attempt paulie.....although its not the horse i was referring to it did seem to receive an injudicious ride....i would say its effort in Thurles had alot to do with the ability of his rider......he seemed as he does normally completely unaware of what he was doing wrong....the rider of the horse in my mind was completely aware of what he was doing.
By:
lookingforthewildman
When: 09 Jan 12 14:04
Marlay Park has ran twice since Xmas......of course he has......
By:
ReimerpYsatnaf
When: 09 Jan 12 14:05
Marley Park was brought down in a hurdle race at Leopardstown on the 29th won by Jetson and then ran behind Berties Dream the other day in a beginners chase.
By:
paddywhacker1970
When: 09 Jan 12 14:06
While technically incorrect, I would refer to Xmas in a racing context as any of the four days of racing at Leop/Lim.
By:
paulie wallnuts
When: 09 Jan 12 14:06
Marlay Park hasn't ran twice since Xmas. He ran at Xmas GOD HELP US
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