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Bigwillystyle
06 Jul 11 15:11
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Date Joined: 16 Jul 10
| Topic/replies: 9,908 | Blogger: Bigwillystyle's blog
P Rothwell
J Gorman
Pause Switch to Standard View Worst Trainers in Ireland
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Report Rocketfingers July 6, 2011 3:19 PM BST
Were these the trainers of your last 2 big bets BWS?
Report TradeFair July 6, 2011 3:27 PM BST
Rothwell is a genius.
Report Dan Chipowski July 6, 2011 3:38 PM BST
Laugh Genius.
Report Bigwillystyle July 6, 2011 3:40 PM BST
I wouldnt back Workforce if he was running off 50 if he were trained by either of these two.
Report Giant Strides July 6, 2011 3:43 PM BST
This will probably surprise some but I think K. Prendergast should hang `em up asap.
Given he trains for several top owners, I don`t think he`s gets the best out of the quality of animal he receives anymore.
Report thegalwayman July 6, 2011 3:44 PM BST
A genius perhaps in the sense that it takes a wise man to play the fool.
Report Bigwillystyle July 6, 2011 3:47 PM BST
There are many more.  You see them every day of the week.  Horse runs twice in maiden hurdles and then on its third run the horse finishes 5th or 6th in a maiden and gets a rating of 95, costing the owner 2 races in the process.  Trainers havent a clue how to place their horses.
Report Rocketfingers July 6, 2011 3:59 PM BST
BWS horses start of with a rating of 88-86 imo no matter how poorly they seem to run. I seriously doubt 5th or 6th and 2 runs down the field will get you a rating of 95 !
Report TradeFair July 6, 2011 4:00 PM BST
Great Strides. If their is any trainer who should retire on the basis of training for top owners than it's a walkover for David Wachman.


COURSE    OVERALL IRISH FLAT        2YO
Ballinrobe    2-16    13%    -2.50    0-0    —    +0.00
Bellewstown    6-20    30%    +6.68    1-5    20%    -0.50
Clonmel    6-16    38%    -2.39    0-0    —    +0.00
Cork    19-106    18%    +30.63    3-17    18%    +0.25
Curragh    31-283    11%    -64.43    17-107    16%    +23.67
Down Royal    4-22    18%    -10.43    0-8    —    -8.00
Downpatrick    1-1    100%    +4.50    0-0    —    +0.00
Dundalk (A.W)    17-119    14%    -36.69    11-57    19%    -5.19
Fairyhouse    3-41    7%    -30.39    1-15    7%    -13.39
Galway    0-22    —    -22.00    0-8    —    -8.00
Gowran Park    9-65    14%    -15.75    0-14    —    -14.00
Killarney    0-27    —    -27.00    0-4    —    -4.00
Laytown    0-1    —    -1.00    0-0    —    +0.00
Leopardstown    10-164    6%    -86.70    4-61    7%    -19.50
Limerick    2-37    5%    -28.75    0-3    —    -3.00
Listowel    5-40    13%    -11.33    2-16    13%    -1.27
Naas    11-92    12%    -35.28    1-30    3%    -25.50
Navan    11-72    15%    -13.95    5-31    16%    -11.20
Roscommon    7-38    18%    -1.00    1-13    8%    -6.00
Sligo    0-10    —    -10.00    0-1    —    -1.00
Tipperary    12-75    16%    -3.59    6-30    20%    -6.59
Tralee    0-4    —    -4.00    0-1    —    -1.00
Tramore    4-15    27%    +20.88    0-0    —    +0.00
Wexford    3-29    10%    -5.50    0-1    —    -1.00
Report Bigwillystyle July 6, 2011 4:07 PM BST
There are many examples Rocketfingets. I will try dig out a few tonight. All the best mate is one with Eoin Griffin. Theres a blueprint gelding with Paul Gilligan I can't think of it's name. I will look up another few later when I have time
Report workrider July 6, 2011 4:10 PM BST
kevins dosent have the horses this year giant....they are just not good enough imo...year after year kevin either has a good 2yo like last year for instance ..cant remember the name of that good 2 yo he sold to the arabs for huge money ...he just dont have that kind of 2yo this year....
Report TradeFair July 6, 2011 4:13 PM BST
If you're referring to Shuttle Mills with Gilligan that I don't get your point. He was proven himself to be useless off 99 and after 3 subsequent defeats has been dropped to 98. How could he have gotten any lower of a rating to start with?
Report TradeFair July 6, 2011 4:14 PM BST
Kingsfort was the horse they sold after winning the National Stakes two years ago.
Report Bigwillystyle July 6, 2011 4:19 PM BST
That horse most certinly is not useless. Badly campaigned but not useless. Some crckibg runs there and deserved d rating he got. My point is why the he'll was he doing running him that close in maidens. Trainers haven't. Clue how to handicap a horse.
Report TradeFair July 6, 2011 4:22 PM BST
So you're arguing that Gilligan should have stopped the horse three times? When a trainer lands a touch with a horse with a profile you're condoning I presume you never call foul?
Report rubyisgodinthesaddle July 6, 2011 4:27 PM BST
Useless???

I would put forward the Theory that Kevin P/ John Oxx and Dermot Weld do not deserve the support they are getting. I believe guys like

GER LYONS
MICK HALFORD
DAVID MARNANE
FOZZY STACK

deserve far more horses from the big owners and would get better results because they are hungry unlike the elder statesmen of the Flat Training ranks who seems to just be going through the motions.
Report workrider July 6, 2011 4:28 PM BST
thats the horse tradefair.....thanks ...
Report Bigwillystyle July 6, 2011 4:38 PM BST
No I don't call foul. Trainer has an obligation to his owners to win races and how Gilligan got that horse handicaped was a joke. Hw should be running off 84 or 85 instead of a stone higher. Very few trainers in this country have any sense or talent to do it.
Report Rocketfingers July 6, 2011 4:40 PM BST
BWS i have owned animals before very hard to get 84 or 85 and trust me some of them deserved to be rated that low.
Report workrider July 6, 2011 4:40 PM BST
are you going to naas...littleman...?
Report TradeFair July 6, 2011 4:46 PM BST
You're saying trainers should cheat. No trainer should be criticised for not cheating. Paul Gillihan won a handicap at Galway a few years ago with a horse a stone out of the handicap and has raided a few UK gaff tracks to get a few winners too. His horse run to their merits and should be commended for what he does.
Report Giant Strides July 6, 2011 5:20 PM BST
Re Prendergast wr. My thinking is nothing to do with his current crop. Since I`ve started watching the sport he has had only 1 winner outside of Ireland. Haatef, by a head in the Diadem at Ascot in `07. And that was after aborting a classic campaign.
He wins plenty of Mickey mouse group races here, but he`s long past his best imho.
Good point about Wachman Tf. That Leopardstown stat in particular is woeful.
Report TradeFair July 6, 2011 5:25 PM BST
Do you need to win races in the UK? Given the prize money here unless you have one to win a classic or a big Group 1 there is no point sending horses over. Outside of Aiden O'Brien how many Irish trainers send horses over at all during the summer?
Report workrider July 6, 2011 5:28 PM BST
kevin unlike his father before him never ventured abroad much ....i take on board your point giant....but over all he has been to the forefront of irish racing for many a long year and is a well respected trainer ...the fact that the arabs still employ him is a testament to his skill....
Report poorpup July 6, 2011 5:28 PM BST
nike and adidas
Report Giant Strides July 6, 2011 5:39 PM BST
Well he clearly doesn`t need to! Just an opinion lads.
I think to be considering a top class trainer you need to be able to travel and win with your horses abroad.
He has plenty of decent 2yos in that period that he`s wrapped in cotton wool for the following year and they didn`t train on.
What`s the best horse he`s had in the last decade? Probably Mustameet and all he did was win a few Gr3s!
Report workrider July 6, 2011 5:40 PM BST
... another one has arrived i see ..god almighty do they ever stop...
Report TradeFair July 6, 2011 5:52 PM BST
The best horses he has had in the last 10 years were Ribeline, More Wells and Kingsodt on ratings. It's not like he was legions of Group 1 winners to go to the UK with. Like I said above Irish trainers don't need to go to the UK unless they have a classi contender.
Report Giant Strides July 6, 2011 6:05 PM BST
Apologies. I completely forgot about Rebelline who was excellent, but she was in essence a Curragh mudlark.
I don`t think the other 2 were all that. Moores Wells improved after he left and Kingscroft won a weak National stakes.
Off out.
Report soapp July 6, 2011 6:31 PM BST
It's ok for ye to say who ye think are the worst trainers. My nom de plume at the races is shot to pieces so I could hardly mention any esp as they often tip me up one to back or to keep an eye on one during the week. Laugh
Report huddys July 6, 2011 6:33 PM BST
christy roache for me,never back any of his horses
Report soapp July 6, 2011 6:39 PM BST
4-4441 Green To Gold (IRE)5 b 6 9-4 (Incl 5lbs Penalty J P O'Brien

We cleaned up on this one at Bellewstown at the week-end. Wait till Friday not to back his horses as this one will hose up at the leop tomorrow. Laugh
Report JayTrumpOldTomDubbl July 6, 2011 8:00 PM BST
Listen lads..... Kevin Prendergast is a legend....won the 1977 2000gns at Newmarket with Nebbiolo and ridden by Squibs Curran.....was a top amateur jockey....and has a good number of gorgeous daughters and i'm sure workrider can confirm this Laugh and in any event he must now be in his late 70's so he is probably slowing down a little....I remember him riding in the Punchestown bumper 1977 on The Wee Glen for his brother PJ junior....he'sa great trainer and was open enough with info when asked upfront.....
Report triumphoragony July 6, 2011 9:16 PM BST
p nolan NAP, joncol at leop 09Cry lexus omg!
Report Giant Strides July 6, 2011 10:40 PM BST
He didn`t reach his legendary status here because of his exploits in the last 10 years jay. That`s all I`m saying. I`m not saying he`s the worst either, just that his time has been and gone.
Report Prospero July 6, 2011 10:56 PM BST
Loving this thread. A favourite topic of mine is the worst trainers in the land.

Rothwell certainly up there. Will ruin Rathlin before long if not done so already.
Can't be having Kevin Prendergast at all; surely near the top of the other list. Class act, does the business with he has the horses. Pretty straight too.
Tom Mullins without doubt the worst NH trainer of recent years.Appalling placing of horses like Made In Taipan.
John Kiely not the worst but bloody overrated; when's the last time one of these bumper hotpots did something over hurdles/fences? Sweeps Hill anyone?
Arthur Moore had a good year but he's been terrible last 5/6 years.
Christy Roche another lad with a name but not many winners.
On the flat, Wachman is surely overrated for the quality he is getting.
Tom Hogan is a joke.
Report JayTrumpOldTomDubbl July 6, 2011 11:07 PM BST
OK prospero keep goin....I agree with you in the most of your post........
Report neill d July 6, 2011 11:13 PM BST
Prendegast gets the garbage stock from Sheikh Hamdan imo, I'd say the likes of Hills, Meehan and Johnston get first pick. The O'Reilly's can't compete at the top level on the flat in real terms. He just doesn't get the stock imo.
Report Bigwillystyle July 6, 2011 11:19 PM BST
Agree with P Nolan and Tom Hogan. JJ Murphy is dire. Like Clive Brittian wannabe running 70 ratedhorses in group races.
Report megabucks July 6, 2011 11:31 PM BST
A Mullins, T Mullins,C Swan,
Report Bigwillystyle July 6, 2011 11:34 PM BST
Agree C Swan. Luke Comer even though had winner tonight. Val O'Brien.
Report vinnie_roe July 6, 2011 11:36 PM BST
According to the stats M J Grassick is the worst. 1 Win from 112 runs in 2010, and only 1 winner this season. So what you need to do is send your colt to him until he achieves a handicap mark, and then send the animal to dermot weld.
Report 3winnersandasecond July 6, 2011 11:38 PM BST
Prospero is very much on the money here, terrible to see a horse like MIT "campaigned" the way he was this season.
Some trainers have poor horses but do their best with them, others get the best of animals and make little of them. So to add to the list.
Ted Walsh, "trains" for the 3 biggest NH owners in the country, have a look at his strike rate (and that includes 3 recent wins).
Paul Nolan (as above)

However it will be a long time before any of them come close to the feats achieved by Frank Berry. For a year or so after he "retired" there was serious money to be made by backing the animals that left his yard. The hcp marks of most rose by stones not lbs...
Report Mordin. July 7, 2011 12:05 AM BST
The worst trained horse in Ireland Glor Na Mara Confused
Report arsenalno1 July 7, 2011 12:32 AM BST
c.swan and c. roche
Report jair1970 July 7, 2011 12:55 AM BST
So Prendergast is past his best? 

At the age of 79?

Who'd have thought? Laugh
Report TradeFair July 7, 2011 2:02 AM BST
Giant Strides
Date Joined:     03 Aug 08
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06 Jul 11 17:20 Joined: 03 Aug 08 | Topic/replies: 3,869 | Blogger: Giant Strides's blog
Re Prendergast wr. My thinking is nothing to do with his current crop. Since I`ve started watching the sport he has had only 1 winner outside of Ireland. Haatef, by a head in the Diadem at Ascot in `07. And that was after aborting a classic campaign.
He wins plenty of Mickey mouse group races here, but he`s long past his best imho.
Good point about Wachman Tf. That Leopardstown stat in particular is woeful.


Just to clear this up, he is well able to train winners of big races in the UK.

His Royal Ascot winners are Ore (Queen's Vase 1981 and Queen Alexandra Stakes 1982), Oscar Schindler (Hardwicke Stakes 1996) and Verglas (Coventry Stakes 1996).

He's only had 11 runners in the last 5 years in the UK with 2 winners so it's ridiculous to judge him on that basis. How many winners has he trainers in total? I don't know because I lost count after he hit 2,000 last year.
Report Giant Strides July 7, 2011 8:35 AM BST
I don`t know where you`re getting your stats but the`re wrong.
He`s had 23 Uk runners since 2000 and I used the word ABROAD, not just the UK.
His other win was in a Beverley 2yo auction maiden! Yippee.
He`s 0 from 10 outside of the UK making that 2 from 33 overall. He`s wasting his time.

And how is 83 yo Bart Cummings getting on in Australia jair!?
Report Giant Strides July 7, 2011 8:36 AM BST
And I reiterate. The period I speak of is the last decade.
Michael Grassick used to win Group races once upon a time also!
Report Giant Strides July 7, 2011 9:38 AM BST
I misread your 11 runners in 5 years Tf. However, that is just a stat to suit your case. As is the inclusion of that other "win".
I can`t find a winner between Verglas in `96 and Haatef in `07.
Considering Bolger, Oxx and Weld (let alone o`Brien) have won many of the biggest races in the world in that period, I don`t think he deserves his legendary status.
He could be the nicest man in the world for all I know. Nothing against him at all, I just don`t think he gets the best out of the horses he trains. That is all!
Report RoyalAcademy July 7, 2011 11:22 AM BST
...the fact that the arabs still employ him is a testament to his skill....

If I ever read a questionable "fact", this might be it. Since when are these guys any judge?????

I imagine most opinions here are based on betting considerations whereas black-type, return on investment, bloody-mindedness (JSB!) are other considerations.

In fairness to David Wachman he may be getting regally-bred stock but he's getting ONLY because they're turned back at the gate in Rosegreen. When he gets the goods he can make a decent fist of it. He is well able to get a three-year-old handicapped and lands a touch or two every season. Generally his two-year-olds come on massively for a first run, if they click first-time-out they are usually top-drawer.

One of my best memories of Wachman (and financially lucrative) was his placing of a Sadler's Wells filly named Propaganda to win a Downpatrick handicap in 2008. She had cost a fortune and Luca Cumani hadn't managed to get her a winning bracket as a 2yo. Wachman gave her a couple of spins and found a lovely target for her in May. I remember watching the race and could see that Lordan was under strong orders to make all. I was rarely so confident placing a bet. This wasn't the mark of a poor trainer.

Tommy Stack's fortunes completely rejuvenated thanks to Fozzy and their ability to prep horses early season is one of the strongest trends in racing.

Some of the trainers mentioned are more down on their luck than poor: Tom Hogan had his days but no ammunition now and Grassick has been on the slide for years (Pat O'Kelly is loyal).

Ger Lyons doing a fine job and attracting better quality 2yo's recently. Sean Jones is some man and must have 20-30 horses running in his colours.
Report jack07 July 7, 2011 11:37 AM BST
Out of interest where is sean jones from? where he get the money for buying these horses? thanks
Report wildmanfromborneo July 7, 2011 12:04 PM BST
Royal Academys statement..Some of the trainers mentioned are more down on their luck than poor....is both accurate and kind and one i agree with in its entirety.
Aiden OBrien is very poor when it comes to handicaps but then that isnt his job,Wachman has some skill in that department but that shouldnt be part of his job either.
Report GANT007 July 7, 2011 1:31 PM BST
Jack07.....Sean Jones has made a nice few quid selling horses on to the hong kong/middle east market and reinvests it with Ger.
Report Bigwillystyle July 7, 2011 1:34 PM BST
I presume he wants to know how he made his money i.e whats his profession?
Report Bigwillystyle July 7, 2011 1:37 PM BST
Mouse Morris - Rubbish trainer although to his credit his horses do run well at Cheltenham more often than not. 

Philip Fenton - IMO rubbish as well.
Report RoyalAcademy July 7, 2011 3:29 PM BST
As far as I know Sean Jones is a businessman from Carrickmacross and is a major supporter of GL. Whatever about selling on stock to the Far East there must have been a very insignificant up-front investment by him and a) I've no idea how he made his initial money or b) how successful the financial venture is with Lyons. 23 horses ran for him in 2009 and 19 in 2010.

They don't pay a fortune for their stock (assuming it's some kind of partnership) and compared to the millions that some people invest in the game its an interesting experiment to turn cheaply bought yearlings into profit as they do seem to be sellers in the first instance. A casual glance at Lyons' stats indicates a significant number of horses are sold on quickly and in GL he has the consummate salesman with obviously a great eye for a yearling.
Report RoyalAcademy July 7, 2011 3:45 PM BST
By the way I mentioned Wachman's handling of Propaganda above. There is an interesting parallel with one of his 3yo's this season.

MV Magnier bought an unraced 2yo named Ajiaal (by Cape Cross) from the Shadwell draft last December for a cheap looking £17,000. She has a gorgeous pedigree (half-sister to 8 winners including Maraahel who won a stack of middle-distance stakes races for Hamdan) and will make a fine cover for the Sadler's Wells line Coolmore stallions.

If DW can get her to win a race of any description she will be a valuable broodmare. Her best effort yet was in a 10f Navan maiden in June (fancied in the market) and the riding tactics (disputed) were strikingly similar to Propaganda's win. She ran quite well but they dropped her back to a mile last time with no success.
Report thefly10 July 7, 2011 4:36 PM BST
Robbie Hennessy. O Dear God.
Report workrider July 7, 2011 4:54 PM BST
i find your statement , he may be getting regally-bred stock but he's getting ONLY because they're turned back at the gate in Rosegreen.startling to say the least royal....most trainers would give their right arm for such REJECTS .....the fact that he placed one to win a race after luca couldn't get a win out of a SADLER'S WELLS as a 2 yo is no great achievement imo....no he has more chances than most  , and is set to remain a nearly man imo...
Report Santry July 7, 2011 5:18 PM BST
Charlie Swan for me.
Report thegalwayman July 7, 2011 6:04 PM BST
I have not heard the rumour that Wachman is due to take over from O'Brien at Ballydoyle for a while now.

Fenton is in Rothwell's league alright.
Report JayTrumpOldTomDubbl July 7, 2011 6:05 PM BST
I do agree with workrider re- Watchman.....noone has mentioned PJ Flynn over in Carrig-an-Shure.....
Report RoyalAcademy July 7, 2011 6:59 PM BST
Workrider: My point is that Wachman had a job to do and did it very well. The horse immediately retired to stud with her residual value reasonably in tact and if you study her 2yo form I'd say she had the Timeform squiggle. I accept that a Ballydoyle reject is something any/many trainers would die for but DW is set up to be a mini-ballydoyle and if he doesn't get the stakes material he's on a hiding to nothing. Having said that there's only so many fillies that Aidan wants so Wachman's successes have tended to come from that direction (Again & Damson).

I'd rather see a specific reason why someone thinks so and so is no good rather than woolly opinions like "Oh Dear God", "a nearly man".Devil
Report neill d July 7, 2011 8:05 PM BST
I thought Weld would get more group winners from his link up with Khalid Abdullah myself.
Report JayTrumpOldTomDubbl July 7, 2011 8:26 PM BST
The Prince only wants Galway wins he told DKW.....and 1 r 2 to lay in Galway [;)]
Report neill d July 7, 2011 8:29 PM BST
Famous Name to carry top weight in the mile on the Tuesday night, He'll be given a few quiet ones to get under 110[;)]
Report neill d July 7, 2011 8:29 PM BST
Christy Roche hotpot turned over, Quelle surprise
Report workrider July 7, 2011 8:55 PM BST
royal , for your argument to stand up re watchman ..i think we need more than one example of turning a rogue into a winner ...plenty of small trainers doing that week after week imo...
Report JayTrumpOldTomDubbl July 7, 2011 9:11 PM BST
And plenty of honest horses doing it for RO**E trainers as well
Report JayTrumpOldTomDubbl July 7, 2011 9:13 PM BST
rogue LaughLaugh
Report workrider July 7, 2011 9:15 PM BST
Laugh
Report somedougal July 8, 2011 3:49 PM BST
jaysus it took a long time for robbie hennessy to pop up! eric mc would have to go on the list too!
Report neill d July 8, 2011 3:51 PM BST
Table Mountain anyone, he's gonna win the Melbourne Cup.
Report Bigwillystyle July 8, 2011 4:50 PM BST
Neil d that is the worst post of the year. Even if the horse was good
enough which he probably is not the trainer certainly is not.
Report somedougal July 8, 2011 5:10 PM BST
daniel loughnane and jim 'dougal' culloty onto the list too please!
Report neill d July 8, 2011 5:13 PM BST
I know, I was being facetious
Report neill d July 8, 2011 5:14 PM BST
He has made some terrible buys off the flat, or they have turned out that way anyway, remember Donegal.
Report Bigwillystyle July 8, 2011 5:17 PM BST
Daddy has the money.  Would
love to take up training myselfLaugh
Report neill d July 8, 2011 5:25 PM BST
Ya I've a bit of ground myself, must just stick in the obligatory all weather gallop first, Highclere want me to straighten out MemoryLaugh, I think I'll lock her in the stalls for a week, see how she likes that.
Report workrider July 8, 2011 5:26 PM BST
can you imagine the interview with the trainer littleman and big mac...
big mac..was that off littleman
littleman ...of course it was john when i declared it this morning we were promised flash floods ....
big mac....but the horse needs firm going ...
littleman ... that maybe the case alright big mac...but i thought it would have come all the same ...
big mac looking puzzled ...ok littleman.....looking at the camera he is heard to whisper ...thats irish trainers for you
littleman winks at the camera and says
i had a £10 saver on the winner......Laugh
Report Bigwillystyle July 8, 2011 5:30 PM BST
I would know how toplace the horse to win a race unlike these clowns.
Report neill d July 8, 2011 5:33 PM BST
I'd feed them plently, work them hard, run them often and lay them till the day[;)]
Report workrider July 8, 2011 5:38 PM BST
Laugh neill d...
Report neill d July 8, 2011 5:39 PM BST
I think others have already patented the model unfortuately workrider.....
Report neill d July 8, 2011 5:41 PM BST
Sur you'd want to be a stone well in in Ireland, to be sure, to be sure.
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