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wildmanfromborneo
10 Apr 11 20:46
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Date Joined: 30 Nov 10
| Topic/replies: 1,353 | Blogger: wildmanfromborneo's blog
Three big gambles landed by Ballydoyle this season,Empowering,Markmanship and Quest For Peace and already a pattern has developed.All three gambles were well hidden in the word didnt get out,big money got on at surprisingly large prices,also in their races all raced up with the pace and all had hit the front two furlongs out, contrast this with the rides the Ballydoyle horses that were not particularly fancied got,out the back running on.They seem to have got some betting expert on the team maybe its because of the recession but they seem to have cracked the gambling end of things.
Pause Switch to Standard View A Pattern developing in Ballydoyle...
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Report RoyalAcademy April 24, 2012 3:45 PM BST
exactly itcantbedone.

Michael Tabor's spend/contribution to Irish and international bloodstock conservatively valued at $100m+.

And he's a bit player for Curragh touches landing a few grand; has a real ring of truth to it. maybe evidwence of where he (Michael Tabor, not some putative agent) was conned ("put......wrong") would help?

If you followed Coolmore gambles over the years you'd be in the poor house.

the bookies omerta is impressive with hardly a single opinion on this thread from that quarter....what are we missing?
Report wildmanfromborneo April 24, 2012 9:48 PM BST
RoyalAcademy is dead right when he says " if you followed Coolmore gambles over the years you`d be in the poor house " and tis that that brought the change of policy.These new type gambles are Magnier ones and Tabor is cut out because he is considered the leak and for these to be successful it is vital that everyone stays quiet,also they are landing far more than a couple of grand.Tabor is a hopeless punter,he backs far too frequently in far too many markets and he chases,he also lets the cat out of the bag,his use of one particular agent has caused trouble as that agent availed of the biggish prices for himself leaving the main men trading at the lowest prices.The horse picked for the lesson was Foot Soldier[i think] in a two year old maiden at Leopardstown,the word was put out that this was a serious two year old and any price was a good one,Tabor moved advised his agent to get what he could on,the usual happened the agent took his own slice first and then invested Tabors money,his bet was so vast that it forced the horses price from 4/6 to 2/9,that Tabor had no cut off point for price will show how poor a gambler he is,the inevitable happened and he got beaten.
The reason there is no squealing from the bookies is they are getting plenty from Tabor but when they cotton on to the different style of gamble they may change tack.
Report Ozymandius April 24, 2012 11:08 PM BST
How does Tabor feel about the new approach?  If you have figured it out then presumably he has too?
Report SHANEBOY_FANTASY_WINS_2011_IRISH_DERBY April 25, 2012 8:37 AM BST
.....wilmanfromborneo posting rubbish..has this ever happened before?.....Tabor is a leak?..Tabor is a hopeless punter?..He backs too much and chases?.....

.....Again i guarantee this man cannot prove any of what he is saying and it is all in his crazy mind..he probably dreamt all this one night so decided it must be real.....
Report kavvie April 25, 2012 9:18 AM BST
this is the funniest thread i read in a long while..im sure tabor is conducting a root and branch investigation into the "lads"fooling him as we speak.the poor man must be livid!!..and him owning stallions all over the world some of which wouldnt raise their front legs for under 200k(tax free!!)
Report redbait April 25, 2012 9:32 AM BST
A new low for the forum. The sad thing is, there seem to be a fair few newcomers on this thread that are actually believing some of this stuff. Bit of advice lads, don't repeat any of this in public.
Report wildmanfromborneo April 25, 2012 10:51 AM BST
Redbait how is this a new low ? what should they not repeat in public ? its a discussion on gambling.Many times i have stated that Willie Mullins doesn`t gamble but that doesn`t mean his horses aren`t gambled,John Oxx the same,some of ye think this thread is a slur on Aiden O`Brien it most definitely is not.
Ye can`t deny that a change took place in some of the betting patterns of O`Brien trained horses last year,i listed them chapter and verse.Many times in his career O`Brien has won [not unlike John Oxx] with his second and third string,many times there was differing word for his horses but last year the change was in a few select races they had the favourite and the second string which was backed late and there was no word from anywhere.We all know that a horse only has to cough and it will be reflected here,yet in these gambles nothing got out,that means no staff member has leaked anything that to me was impressive.
Again i have long been saying you learn a lot about the O`Brien horses by the wat they are ridden,the gambled on ones are all ridden aggressively from the front but the real good ones are tenderly ridden from off the pace,Camelot in Leopardstown the best example,they also seem to go off unbacked by the inner circle.
Foot Soldier at Leopardstown was backed from 4/6 to 2/9 and we know him to be useless so would it be fair to say that the person backing that for such huge sums was put wrong,would it also be fair to say that a gambler when backing a horse has no cut off regarding price is a poor one,there was only one punter backing Foot Soldier.
I am surprised at Kavvie as he is a racegoer and it isin`t hard to follow who is backing what.Two of the biggest punters in the Irish ring were fellow county men of his and the unfortunate Timmy O`Toole was at Shelbourne one night when he was given a ropey tip for a dog,he sent his men into action in a very weak market result dog in Foot Soldier type fashion shortened into 1/4 yielding this sad retort " he must be fancied they are all backing it now "
Report kavvie April 25, 2012 10:56 AM BST
do you realise how wealthy michael tabor is or have you ann idea at all?a fun bet for him might be 50k.im a bigger fool to be entertaining you.yes gambles do go wrong.horses are horses.its happening all the time.and yes people do get set up all the time.but the"lads "setting up m tabor?!!?
Report kavvie April 25, 2012 11:00 AM BST
and i agree the above  2 unfortunate men you refer to were shamefully set up time after time by the parasites that were in the ring at that time.
Report wildmanfromborneo April 25, 2012 11:02 AM BST
I think they were trying to plug the leak also i am not as sure as you about the wealth of these people,i have long stated that Coolmore are under some financial pressure,disagree with me if you like but why so angry.
Report Ozymandius April 25, 2012 11:09 AM BST
Well if they were under financial pressure, surely the last thing they would adopt is a strategy to 'cut out' or 'put wrong' Tabor.  What will the fallout be if he ever does figure out that he is now (allegedly) a patsy Cry????
Report Bigwillystyle April 25, 2012 11:10 AM BST
Not often i agree with the Wildclown but he is right on most of what he says.  They are a rancid outfit and can do what they like and are answerable to anybody.  They run Irish racing.  Never seen anybody to run half fit animals as much as these guys. 

On Tabor he always struck me as a bit of a mouth piece.  He is a pretty insignificant figure in that operation and wouldnt surpirse me if he didnt know what was going on.
Report keen leader April 25, 2012 11:10 AM BST
kavvie, many moons ago i was at leicester midweek for a jump fixture. tabor flew in by helicopter, a rarity at the time, think he had a runner that day trained by neville callaghan. in the space of less than 2 hours, he crashed the market on his own horse and after it got beat he went on tilt and left losing 6 figures in the ring. business wise tabor has done exceptionally well, punting horses, loads of leading bookies happily take his bets, says it all.
Report kavvie April 25, 2012 11:14 AM BST
fair enough keen but he must be worth 8/900 mill?im not saying hes a winner betting but surely his partners in coolmore wouldnt be setting him up to lose?
Report Bigwillystyle April 25, 2012 11:19 AM BST
Those boys would do anything to get a profit.  Cutting Tabor out would make no difference to them
Report Ozymandius April 25, 2012 11:21 AM BST
If he was being set up, and he discovers it, then surely he would leave the set-up immediately.  Though I am not sure how easy it would be to extract himself from the partnership.

SO IF he is being set up, and I cant believe that he is, it is surely not for the purpose of making a small few shekels at the bookies, but rather an attempt to force him out.
Report Bigwillystyle April 25, 2012 11:26 AM BST
Why would he leave?  Some of the best horses in the world carry his colours.  He losses a few Hundred k here and there no harm done. 
I wonder how much of a stake he has in these animals?  Doubt he has any share when they go to stud.
Report Bigwillystyle April 25, 2012 11:26 AM BST
Why would he leave?  Some of the best horses in the world carry his colours.  He losses a few Hundred k here and there no harm done. 
I wonder how much of a stake he has in these animals?  Doubt he has any share when they go to stud.
Report wildmanfromborneo April 25, 2012 11:32 AM BST
I don`t accept Tabor is as wealthy as ye all think and he needs Coolmore far more than they need him.
The Foot Soldier episode was designed to soften the cough of the agent mainly but the recklessness of Tabor and lack of punting ability cost him,sending instructions to get x amount of money on with price being irrelevant is lunacy.
The one thing about this recession is we don`t know who has been affected,there is no one above losing money.
Ye are all underestimating the amount of money these gambles have netted,my estimate they all exceeded 100 thousand so it is not pin money.
Report p_r_e_m_i_e_r__f_a_n_t_a_s_y April 25, 2012 11:36 AM BST
2009
Michael Tabor
USD 1,2 billion


His wealth ^
found that on the interent, how true i don't know
Report Ozymandius April 25, 2012 11:41 AM BST
He would leave immediately because any man that has enough about him to have made as much of a success of himself as Tabor has, does not accept being made a patsy of.  No chance.
Report Bigwillystyle April 25, 2012 11:42 AM BST
Coolmore cant be doing that well at the moment.  Most of their Stallions you can get for a song.  Their top NH stallion is advertised as 10K i think but sure you can get in for 4K.  The Sheik has quietened thier cough.  Hope he keeps going and puts them under even more pressure.
Report wildmanfromborneo April 25, 2012 11:42 AM BST
I would say a lot of that is stallion value.
As well as being a very poor gambler he also pays his agent 3% commission,that can only end one way in tears.
Report Bigwillystyle April 25, 2012 11:44 AM BST
In other words Wildclown you are calling Tabor a mug in the same mould as Stubby.
Report SHANEBOY_FANTASY_WINS_2011_IRISH_DERBY April 25, 2012 11:49 AM BST
.....you can't make this thread up..Laugh..now we have a escaped mental patient who thinks he knows everything about Coolmore and a sad individual who thinks he is some sort of genius and top punter calling Tabor a multi millionaire a mug..Laugh.....

.....the stupidity on here is unreal at times.....
Report Temlett April 25, 2012 11:51 AM BST
When has wildman said he was a top punter?

He is merely saying that Tabor is a clueless punter and not part of the cleverly planned gambles. The stitch up thing is different but keeping Tabor out of gambles looks very plausible given that he would ruin them straight away.
Report SHANEBOY_FANTASY_WINS_2011_IRISH_DERBY April 25, 2012 11:54 AM BST
.....perhaps you should read my post again!!!..Laugh..i was referring to Mr. small willy who has in the past tried to make out his is this great punter when he is just a loser bum..Laugh..anyway i will leave you kiddies to make up fairytales about people way more successful than any of you lot ever will be.....
Report silvergreaser April 25, 2012 11:54 AM BST
There might be some truth in what the wildman says but I find it almost fanciful to think Tabor is been left out in the cold.

This remember is the same Michael Tabor who was banned from British racing back in the 70's for paying off jockeys, this guy loves a tilt at the bookies and before the notorious Smiths joined the Coolmore fold, you knew when Tabor had his money down because he didn't care what price they were, often Ballydoyle hot pots would be backed as if defeat was out of the question, a 4/6 shot could become a 1/3 shot in a few minutes once the Tabor cash started to roll.
This was when you could actually trust the Coolmore machine the horses were always fit enough to do themselves justice then.
Cue along come the Smiths father and son who also love a tilt at the ring but were not willing to take any old price hence the amount of what should be Ballydoyle penalty kicks getting turned over in egg and spoon races only to be backed off the board next time when the naive bookies had read too much into the animals last run and gave a backable price when in fact the only reason the horse din't win was because the horse was simply not in any shape or form to do itself justice on the track.

The once trustworthy Ballydoyle bandwagon has been poisoned since the arival of the Smiths, Aiden is only doing what he is told, be it Yeats, Fame and Glory, SNA etc, good chance Nephrite will be another one, I see its entered in both guineas, and the 6f Greenlands it'll hardly take up its Epsom Derby entry unless he's used as a pacemaker, it will be interesting to see how Nephrites season progresses?.
Report Temlett April 25, 2012 12:02 PM BST
Yes Tabor punted like crazy and shouted from the rooftops about it. Danetime a prime example in his early days. He was never slow in telling people that such and such was a cert etc and that he had piled into it.

You do not get that from them these days. Even in the big races such as Camelot last year, the money poured on late but there was no bells and whistles about it. The second string winning gambles are never highlighted and never mentioned by those idiots reps for bookmakers every day.

How the gambles are orchestrated these days is anyone's guess, but it has certainly changed over the past number of years and I doubt whether a very heavy punter and happy publicity seeker has simply been told to keep his mouth shut and his wallet closed until instructed.
Report wildmanfromborneo April 25, 2012 12:02 PM BST
We all pay commission here so we know its a killer but we are betting into no profit books,he pays 3% commission into 40% profit books.
Historically all the big losing punters were multi millionaires so that status doesn`t guarantee success indeed the opposite,take any man out of his field of expertise and he will flounder,the same applies when they go buying horses.
Report Allduckornodinner April 25, 2012 12:12 PM BST
Whatever about gambling and that but since the economic downturn has hit Tabor has comfortably surpassed Magnier and the Smiths in wealth terms. That much I know for certain.

You'd hear all sorts of stories about Tabor. One of them concerns as very substantial bet struck in a private box with Victor Chandler on Statue of Liberty in the Coventry. Victor seemingly was seemingly in a very flustered state as the horses made their way to the start as he was worried if the boys he sent down to the ring to lay it off would get there in time.
Report Temlett April 25, 2012 12:23 PM BST
How can he punt with VC given that he owns a very substantial share of it?
Report Allduckornodinner April 25, 2012 12:34 PM BST
I was wondering this myself Temlett. I think it may have been a private bet between them. I wouldn't take much notice of stories like this only that the fella that I heard it from would have been in the box.

Regardless of how good or bad a punter he is I sincerely doubt that you could pull the wool over his eyes such as has been suggested on this thread.
Report wildmanfromborneo April 25, 2012 11:56 PM BST
I would love an answer from Redbait as to how this thread is a new low and how it is dangerous.
I will state again i am an admirer of Coolmore as they are the best in the business,i am an admirer of Aiden O`Brien as he is the best in the business and i was a bigger admirer of Vincent O`Brien as he was the best of all time.To be the best at anything you have to have a ruthless streak and they all had/have it.For as long as i remember owners have come and gone most have had some success but nearly all were cleaned out in the finish,i think a similar fate awaits Mr Tabor.
John Mulcahy   I retired to Ireland with enough money to live the high life,then i met Vincent O`Brien
Raymond Guest   I owned two Derby winners thank god i didn`t own a third
Patrick Gallagher   An Irish property developer who they roped in on one big deal[Try My Best]he later admitted it was his biggest ever business loss.
Stavros Niarchos    The Greek shipping magnate eventually had to admit he couldn`t afford it.
Danny Schwartz    This was the bravest cleaning of them all,he was the head of the New York mafia and he came out crying enough
Classic Thoroughbreds   Having run out of individuals they managed to rope in a group of small investors with the same result

Still think Tabors position is unassailable.
Report tobywong. April 26, 2012 1:46 AM BST
Laugh
Report RoyalAcademy April 26, 2012 3:14 PM BST
wildman you have the knacky habit of dispensing hyperbole wrapped in a shround of reasonableness. However you frequently manage to introduce topics of the most mouth-watering interest!

Vincent O'Brien recognised the need to find rich owners when he first started training on the flat in the late 50's/early 60's and found a rich seam to mine in the US, then the pre-eminent racing jurisdiction in the world I believe, and the Irish-American industrialist, John McShane (owner of his first Derby winner Ballymoss and one of "the Irish that build America"), may have been the first fish he landed.

He attracted plenty of these owners and they, by and large, had their days in the sun but certainly weren't "cleaned out" as you say. John A Mulcahy was a very close friend of MV's and, if he spent a little too much on American-breds then who could blame an ageing racing fan for his loyalty. Waterville golf club was John A's legacy to Ireland. Mulcahy was once the owner of Lyonstown Stud (now part of the Coolmore/Ballydoyle empire) and it was build along the lines of American barns.

Inspired by MV's success with US-breds, the Sangster/Magnier/O'Brien axis developed in the seventies (and helped themselves to plenty of petro-dollars) and did attract/target the vast fortunes of Stavros Niarchos (this bloodstock dynasty is still going strong in France mainly) and Danny Schwartz was probably the most unusual owner attracted to the syndicate. He did lose plenty but perhaps he had a laundry business that was extremely profitable!

With the demise of MV and Sangster into the 80's they couldn't compete against the Arabs (who recalls Racing Post headlines "Will Sh Mohammed/Goldolphin/Sh Hamdan win every Group 1 this year?"). John Magnier was developing a stallion business worldwide and only when MV retired did the dream of Ballydoyle become a spark of an idea. Aiden O'Brien was taken on to prove himself and it was a number of years before the massive investment in yearlings started to take place and the blue-bloods stayed in Tipperary rather than venturing to Newmarket or Chantilly.

John Magnier merely repeated the formula that produced The Minstrel, Golden Fleece, El Gran Senor and a myriad of other stakes horse when finding "equal" partners in Tabor and, more recently, Smith and with the Arab battalions constantly ranged against them it is absolutely critical that this syndicate works perfectly well for all concerned. It is truly remarkable how successful they have been competing against opponents with, literally, limitless amounts of cash; that they have succeeded and prospered is remarkable testimony to the genius of the man from Grange Stud.
Report neill d April 27, 2012 5:16 AM BST
I#m not following long enough to say what they have been doing in the past, but they've been making a big effort of late to diversify their stallion roster and seem to have gotten very tied up with Juddemont, even though I'd guess there has always been a strong link there. They have also been bringing in bits and pieces, (some bits bigger than other from Australia) and have bought from America the likes of Uncle Mo, from SA, MDK's Musir and the relatively local Canford Cliffs(Tagula WTF? gorgeous hoss, miler, precocious 2yo and all, but Tagula?) Also, they've tried to patch things up with the Maktoums, who seemed to restrict their buyers from bidding on Coolmore stock at the sales. They'd eventually get their hands on what they wanted, your Teofilos and New Approachs. Add to this, (I know most stallions are failures but) the relatively moderate performances of the expected Holy Roman Emperor, and typical middle distance types who retire at big fees but tend to struggle at stud like Dylan Thomas, Hurricane Run, Duke of Marmalade et cetera. Then there is the rumour that I've heard that they don't insure their stallions as the cut it would take out of their profits would be too much year on year. They instead choose to believe I've heard that the strength of the band will compensate for any loss and they would also posit that in having the best mares, they would have the capacity to 'make' a new stallion. this can be tough to do though when the book is so lopsided and what you're sending to stud as stallions are all Derby types who in the modern commercial breeding sense take too much time and often wind up throwing slow boats. With this in mind the loss of Montjeu might well have been a huge blow and places even more burden of the shoulders of the great Galileo and Fastnetrock from Oz. Note also that Galileo and Montjeu have yet to produce a son who has been successful at stud. Panic buys? flop stallions? Maybe they are in it a bit deeper than we think.
Report wildmanfromborneo April 27, 2012 10:47 AM BST
RoyalAcademy i agree almost entirely with your last post,i am an admirer of both Coolmore and Ballydoyle the wealth and prestige they have brought to this country can never be quantified.I also think that Magnier is a genius indeed in my assertions on this thread he has had to bring his expertise into the gambling side of things,Magnier quickly realised they were losing punting so he changed tack,spotted Tabor as the weak link and decided to punt for himself.In all the punts i outlined here Magnier struck the bets himself with a great strike rate,Tabor whose background is bookmaking has been shown up by the brilliant Magnier who has no such background.
Report mincer11 April 27, 2012 12:15 PM BST
The amount of rubbish being uttered on this thread is simply incredible,people with no knowledge of these people pontificating as if they have.Allduckornodinner's one about the incident in Ascot is funny,as is keen leader's insinuation that Tabor is a mug punter.As for wildmanfromborneo,well he really is in fine form on this thread,the imagination is on speed by the looks of things.
Report wildmanfromborneo April 27, 2012 12:23 PM BST
Is there anything on this thread that you can refute,do you think Tabor is a good punter also did you even notice this new trend of Ballydoyle gambles.I ask these questions in a genuine non aggressive manner because i would be interested in your true views.
Report mincer11 April 27, 2012 12:55 PM BST
Wildmanfromborneo,i appreciate the non aggressive tone so therefore i shall reciprocate.Now i havent read the full thread ,as it is a bit too time consuming,i just basically flick in and out.I have though read this page and some of it is comical to be honest.Tabor as most people will know is a big part of Coolmore,is also a big shareholder in VC,and although you do make a good point in relation to plenty of successful people in other businesses have met their waterloo at this racing game,you cannot apply that thinking to Tabor,because basically speaking this is his original business.He owned the Arthur Prince chain of betting shops in London before selling them on,he was warned off many years ago,so this is no greenhorn we are dealing with.He is originally from the EastEnd of London,so this man is well used to all sorts of funny dealings.Any person who pays 3p commission as long as he has is doing it for a reason,if he was a mug he could bet with anybody,that stands to reason.With the contacts he has ,i could think of alot better things to be doing than taking him on in a head to head battle.Keen Leader thinks otherwise but the chap is dreaming,anybody that lays him now does so to find out what he is backing,and no other reason.As for people thinking that he is the weakest link in the Coolmore Operation,well i couldnt actually nominate who that person is but it certainly isnt Tabor.
Report wildmanfromborneo April 27, 2012 1:13 PM BST
Tabor can`t bet with Power because of an incident at York,he is a volatile mercurial character.I accept your point about the 3% but for some strange reason he thinks this agent is a genius on here and knows how to get money on,Magnier and others thought this agent was feeding himself first hence the lesson which was as much against the agent as Tabor.Tabor bets with Chronicle and on all the gambles i outlined it was Magnier doing the punting nothing from Tabor and nothing from the agent,tis that i was referring to.
Report Ozymandius April 27, 2012 1:20 PM BST
Have you planted listening devices in the Kitchen at Coolmore, wildmanfromborneo?

You are remarkably well informed for a man who sits around all day and does little other than post on the internet.
Report wildmanfromborneo April 27, 2012 1:28 PM BST
I both work and go racing sometimes,i accept there is an element of conjecture but i maintain the facts as outlined speak for themselves.
Report mincer11 April 27, 2012 10:04 PM BST
Wildmanfromborneo ,you will find that Tabor uses a whole host of agents to place wagers,not just the one you are referring to.As for betting with chronicle,the last time he had a bet with them I'd say our lord was in short pants.One final thing if Tabor was the mug that some clowns on here say he is there is no way in the world he would have had a falling out with him.When was the last time you saw a bookie having a row with a foolish punter.
Report wildmanfromborneo April 27, 2012 11:10 PM BST
I am one of the clowns who thinks he is a mug punter,i also definitely saw him betting with Chronicle on the Curragh Guineas day two years ago.Whatever you think of Powers as bookmakers on and off the track you have to concede that David Power is a soft spoken gentle decent man,he was accosted by Tabor at York where Tabor went berserk shouting screaming and foaming at the mouth,he abused him for a height with a tirade of curses much to the embarrassment of David Power,i believe he later apologised but it wasn`t accepted.
I think you are very harsh on Keen Leader and Allduckornodinner,have your disagreements if you like but you cannot deny they know their racing and give interesting contributions.
Finally i know Betfair are your bete noir but are these agents ever hit with the premium charge and would they pass this on or as seems likely to me no one wins on this bloody thing.
Report Allduckornodinner April 28, 2012 12:53 AM BST
As always mincer you read and skew things to your way of thinking. I think you will find that I merely passed on a story (not even fully sure whether it's true or not) about a successful punt of Tabors. I also stated that I would be very surprised to say the least if they managed to cut him out of the Coolmore axis and that he in fact now the wealthiest member of the group.

That was my only contribution to the thread so how you can interpret that as a slight against Tabor I do not know. If you have an agenda against me that's fair enough but at least talk some kind of sense and don't be just talking complete rope and making obviously wrong and baseless insinuations.

To be honest I know very little about Tabor other than whats in the public domain as I don't hawk around after agents and faces in the ring so who he punts with and who works on his behalf is of little interest to me.
Report mincer11 April 28, 2012 10:39 AM BST
Allduckornodinner ,you relayed a story that a friend of yours told you who was bodily present in a box at Ascot.You then come on and tell us that you don't know whether it was actually true or not.Well it's either true or it isn't and if you didn't know whether it was or it wasn't then why did you bother telling us the story in the first place.It's as usual a complete bulllshhit story but who cares,that never bothered you before.Wildmanfromborneo ,I don't know anything about Power or this so called falling out you refer to,but one thing is for sure if Tabor was a mug then an apology wouldn't even be needed nor to mind be refused.As for the agents and the premium charge I can't help you there.
Report Allduckornodinner April 28, 2012 11:23 AM BST
Mincer you really are a basketcase. I outlined a story that I received from someone that would regularly be in that box during RA. I have little reason to doubt the person who told it but since I wasn't present myself I obviously can't state with absolute certainty that it happened. It's a pretty basic thing in life that you generally can't be 100% about stories you hear if you are receiving them secondhand.

This whole bloody thread had been built on the premise of a mixture of speculation, gossip, embellishment and a little fact including your own inputs so it is quite petty that you only mouth off about the people who you hold an agenda against though it is in keeping with your hypocritical nature.
Report mincer11 April 28, 2012 12:08 PM BST
Now allduckornodinner the difference between me and you is I like to be able to believe what people are telling me,not just guessing whether they are or not.I would not relay a story to anybody unless I was 100% certain it was factual .Just for a moment picture the scene you painted,Mr Tabor has a bet with a company he is a major shareholder in,the front man for the said firm then directs a couple of half wits that he has working for him to head straight from the box down through the huge crowd to get to the betting ring to try and lay off on this said horse.Why with a presence on the rails would he not dial a number and give instructions to his staff that are already in the ring to do this job.It seems a little unbelievable to me but as you say yourself there is no shortage of embellishment on this and many other threads.
Report silvergreaser April 28, 2012 12:57 PM BST
Decent post Royal Academy, but I think you're just a little too top heavy in your praise, just say in hypothetical terms Sadlers Wells died prematurely in his first year at stud where would Coolmore be now?, neither Montjeu (now deceased) or Galileo (the current flag bearer) would ever have existed.

I've always said this it was either clairvoyancy on Magniers behalf or an incredible stroke of good fortune that Sadlers Wells was stood at Coolmore rather than be sold to stand in America which was par for the course for Ballydoyle blue bloods at that time, it just so happened the bottom was starting to fall out of the American market around that time.

The simple reason as to why Coolmore turned the tide against the Arabs was a horse named "Sadlers Wells".
Report Allduckornodinner April 28, 2012 1:17 PM BST
And an even greater difference between you and I mincer is that you believe everything you say is 100% correct and where anybody has a differing opinion to yourself or where your viewpoint is shown to be fallacious they are nevertheless idiots. If myself or KL came on and said the sky was blue you'd probably disagree with us. It reminds me of when, after I put up a few Emma Lavelle horses to follow for the year (all bar one of which yielded a healthy individual level stakes profit for the year and the remaining horse unfortunately got killed), you came on saying she hadn't a clue and you'd go broke following her. Funnily enough she's just after her best year ever and has plenty to look forward to next year. Kudos should also go to GH who buys 90% of her horses and given they operate in the very competitive 20k-50k middle market at the store sales they can be rightly proud of the stables progress this year especially considering they haven't a brain cell to rub together according to you.

As I already said I doubt Tabor would be having a bet with VC the firm for obvious reasons and this was more than likely a private bet with Victor himself. It may well be that he doesn't wish to mix the business of the firm with his own. Given the person that told me I am assuming there is a high degree of truth to it but to be honest I don't really care whether it is or not. It may have never occurred to you but there's quite a substantial chance that you have in the past youself been told an embellished story by a trusted source without you realising it. This is Ireland after-all. The point of posting the story was to give an example of the kind of stories that do the rounds about big punters like Tabor. I have heard many spurious and outlandish stories about racing personalities as the average racing fan loves those kinds of rumours but I generally wouldn't take any notice. However when it comes to him I find it hard to believe that he is a poor punter as has been suggested here and outside of that I find it impossible to believe that he could be cut out of the organisation of which he us a major component of in the manner put forward by other posters.
Report Allduckornodinner April 28, 2012 1:26 PM BST
Silver you could adopt that attitude to any person or organisation that has been successful in any industry throughout history. You need a fair degree of luck and timing is also crucial. It has been said that the late Steve Jobs and Bill Gates amongst many others in the computer industry were lucky to have been born in the Baby Boomer era and that if they hadn't there would be no Apple or Microsoft today. Of course luck plays it's part but there was a lot of hard graft and money put in before Sadlers Wells established himself. I cannot for the life of me understand how people can knock Coolmore for what they have achieved.
Report silvergreaser April 28, 2012 2:04 PM BST
Steve Jobs didn't invent the mp3 player it was already invented, he just made it hip and cool looking with white ear phones, Apples first mp3 product wasn't any better than the competition in fact inferior to some, Jobs made it a fashion item, everyone wanted one, a simple concept which allowed him to take a strangle hold on the market, the result was the eventual ipod/iphone near total domination.

Yeh Coolmore were already a successful operation before Sadlers came along but not in anyway powerful enough to take on the arabs, but not even Magnier could foresee what was to come next the rest they say is history.

Wasn't Magnier one of the biggest instigators of the rash almost suicidal Classic Thoroughbreds plc, a desperate attempt to try and win back their domination from the arabs as such they very nearly destroyed Ballydoyle for ever more, if Vincent was thinking of holding on for a few more years the fiasco that was Classic Thoroughbreds almost certainly hastened his retirement, Sangster was all washed up and virtually disappeared after his Manton operation bombed, even Rodrigo De Triano couldn't save him.

Thank the Lord Sadlers Wells was around to bail Magnier out!.
Report Allduckornodinner April 28, 2012 2:17 PM BST
Silver Steve Jobs established the Apple company as the premium brand a long time before anyone was concerned with mp3 players. The point I was making that even a genius like him had timing and luck on his side. It shouldn't detract from what he achieved though.

Coolmore didn't have the financial resources to compete head-to-head with the Arabs and would have needed a gamechanger to take over. That came with SW but to put their success and standing down simply down to luck is disingenuous for me anyway.
Report silvergreaser April 28, 2012 2:56 PM BST
The point I'm making duck, Ballydoyle/Coolmore were on the ropes battered and bleeding profusely, legs buckling but still just about able to stand up, Sadlers at this time was still only a good sire soon to be a super sire, it should not be underestimated the influence this one horse has had on allowing Magnier/Coolmore to eventually punch their way off the ropes to become the all powerful they are today.

The Arabs wrestled the power from Ballydoyle not because of good business protocol but sheer weight of money, Ballydoyle built up their 70's/80's empire through Vincents vision, concentrating mainly on Northern Dancer stock and offspring and then by clever syndication which made them almost untouchable but even they couldn't fend off the oil rich arabs, pride can be dangerous thing, it was this pride that nearly wiped them off the face of the earth.

They then made the mistake of getting into a sustained battle with the arabs at the sales, a battle they never stood a chance of winning, horses going for ridiculous amounts of money, Keeneland weren't complaining!.

Magnier and co might have made some good business decisions down the years but he and his entourage were also guilty of making some incredible foolhardy decisions.
This ruthless business man as the media like to describe him was as fallible as the rest of us.

When Ballydoyle did actually outbid the arabs they paid a kings ransom, the horse would have had to have been a Sea the Stars to come close to recouping the money back at stud, most of these ridiculously expensive horses turned out to be duds.
The arabs didn't care about the kings ransom dud horses they purchased because they had at that time a bottomless pit, the Ballydoyle pit was almost empty when they eventually conceded the war was lost.

Classic Thouroughbreds suffered the same faith soon after.
Report rubyisgodinthesaddle April 28, 2012 4:00 PM BST
John Magnier was a periphereal figure in Classic Thoroughbreds plc farce. Vincent O Brien was the man behind that and Magnier learned a few very important lessons from that.

On Imperial Monarch plenty of cash for him now. Gamble??
Report rubyisgodinthesaddle April 28, 2012 4:03 PM BST
Magnier has done a fantastic Job with Coolmore.

He has bought for the most part very wise. Foal Shared exceptionally very well and invested heavily in mares and Bloodlines for the future.

I could not imagine one man with his limited resources(does not have a countrys wealth to finance his hobby) done any better in a very risky and tough market and make massive profits. On Tabor, Tabor and Smith provided the financially backing to take Coolmore to next level in the last decade and spread the risk. Magnier will always be the main Coolmore man. His sons are already placed to take the business on. Tom Magnier in Australia will eventually take over from "THE BOSS" He has done a great job in Australia and by all accounts is a very nice chap.

Best of luck to them!
Report silvergreaser April 28, 2012 5:17 PM BST
He's peripheral because it suits your arguement or guilty as charged ruby?.

Why then if he was such a shrewd ruthless business man did he not try to rein in his partners when they were losing the total run of themselves?, or was he like Aiden is today a yes man?

I believe Magnier had a huge say in the decisions that destroyed many around him!.
Report rubyisgodinthesaddle April 28, 2012 5:30 PM BST
Didn't Vincent Buy all the and yearlings?. An the lads provided money/business acumen. They bought some incredible duds for fortunes over at Keenland.

Tabor has provided huge financial clout...Smith for my money looks the Magnier type but Tabor by all accounts is a bit of a lad. But sure what harm is Tabor doing only to himself if he wants to gamble millions and lose sure let him at it. I sure Magnier likes the odd gamble but I be very surprised or give a f*&k if they win or not as long as he keeps the turnover of Stallions from Ballydoyle as high as ever. I don't understand why Magnier would have any interest in Gambling to be honest only to keep his future stallions SP for Derby as FAV!
Report silvergreaser April 28, 2012 6:09 PM BST
Ruby, I'm not buying into the wildman thing that Tabor is oblivious to what is going on around him, pure fantasy!.

I'm just pointing out that Magnier was a very very lucky man.
Report rubyisgodinthesaddle April 28, 2012 6:18 PM BST
Completely agree that Magnier was lucky but it takes a lot more than luck and connections to keep that business growing as it had.

He had a vision, he had the financial clout, he had great expierence with Sangster and VOB but he did a very good job himself.
Report silvergreaser April 28, 2012 6:33 PM BST
Thats fair enough ruby, but if Sadlers hadn't become what he became John Magnier would've been what you said earlier a peripheral player.

As allduck says you need a huge slice of luck and John got it, it doesn't disguise the fact that he was intrumental in the decisions that nearly destroyed what was then my favourite Irish racing enterprise "Ballydoyle".

The media will harp over this fact and force feed you, so much so if you're any way naive or not clued up you'll except it as fact, that Magnier is the greatest? when in fact he was on the ropes bigtime!.

Good horses make good jockeys,

Good horses make good trainers, (excluding the weetabix trainers)

Good stallions and mares make good business men!
Report Newmanix April 28, 2012 7:00 PM BST
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Magnier
Report JayTrumpOldTomDubbl April 28, 2012 8:27 PM BST
Wasn't it The Green Monkey that cost all the millions in Keeneland ?
Report silvergreaser April 28, 2012 9:02 PM BST
yeh jay but they bought the green donkey well after sadlers had already gave them their new life line they now had money to burn again, Demi O'Byrne was starting to get a bit cocky, bought this horse from a breeze up sale, google the horse!
Report RicksonG April 28, 2012 10:04 PM BST
MI-5 will be putting in a call to you wildmanfromborneo with all this super sleuth work. Its like reading a hardy boys novel with all the theories being put forward.

I thought the Requisition gamble was fairly tame myself. From memory there was an 8 runner market in the morning paying ew 1,2,3. There was a trickle for Requisition early, Bible Black was subsequently taken out and Requisition was about 6,5.5/1 depending where you looked.
Nephrite was around 8/1 for the Guineas before the race but the obvious q to ask was what APOB horse in the last 5 yrs has he given a prep run 2 weeks before the race? certainly not George Washington,HenryTheNavigator or Footstepsinthesand. There is the famous theory of APOB top horses reappearing back outside of Group level which may/may not be relevant here also.

Requisition finished off well over 8f in Galway and looked to have the physical scope to do something better at 3. The market wasnt asking for the highest premium to be paid to see if he could have an impact on the race.
Report wildmanfromborneo April 28, 2012 11:26 PM BST
Well i remember the Hardy Boys but this thread was originally an attempt to find winners,it yielded some nice ones for me.Requisition was 9/1 before Bible Belt was withdrawn but there was no money for it[that is what impresses me]it opened at 7/1 and again nothing then suddenly the plunge followed by the massive drift on the favourite,it was a classic example of my original post.
Silvergreaser have you ever heard of the stallion Danehill,what a champion he was.
John Magnier is a brilliant stallion master and a brilliant innovator and would have been successful without Saddlers Wells.
There is a ring of truth about Allduckornodinners story about Tabor as it sounds similar to the York incident,i have never stated he was being cut out of the organisation just that Magnier was doing the odd punt himself and keeping some in the dark hence the breakdown of the bookies grapevine.
Report RicksonG April 29, 2012 12:27 AM BST
Requisition was 8/1 in a place before Bible Belt was withdrawn as I tried to get €50 ew on it at this price and was reduced to €25. It was 7/1 with L'brokes post withdrawal and 11/2 with P Power. I wasn't at the Curragh on the day but watching on ATR it seemed an absolute sh1t of a day and going to post it certainly looked as if Nephrite was the smaller of the two. It was backed quite heavily but it looked a bread + butter move to my eyes, the rest of the market was potentially very weak.
Report wildmanfromborneo April 29, 2012 12:41 AM BST
Gambles are now multilayered,you have a weak on course market,an off course market in which i include the punters that are able to bet first show and the exchanges.I think it is a fair position to say that the backers of Requisition were fairly confident that Nephrite either hadn`t trained on or wouldn`t stay[i favour the former]so i think twas they were doing the laying,would that not be substantial,there is a tie in between Magnier and the purple as it is known here.
Report RicksonG April 29, 2012 1:29 AM BST
Hadn't trained on, wouldn't stay, wouldn't be fully fit, wouldn't enjoy the ground, pace shape of the race wouldn't suit, disadvantageous draw...how many variables can u think of that need answering when you back something taking 60%+ out of the field? I'm not saying that Ballydoyle horses don't get backed by their owners, but if its a two horse market, one is 1/2 and the other 7/1 I dont know what you expected to happen regardless of who owns them
Report rubyisgodinthesaddle April 29, 2012 10:36 AM BST
Not much of a hidden gamble on this Father of Science
Report Ozymandius April 29, 2012 11:33 AM BST
Yes but is it Tabor backing a wrong un?  Or is it Magnier preparing the market ahead of a plunge on Exact, the second string?
Report johnslad April 29, 2012 12:24 PM BST
keep taking the TabletsLaugh
Report johnslad April 29, 2012 12:25 PM BST
and stop watching EastendersGrin
Report Bassanio April 29, 2012 1:05 PM BST
Gamble? There is no gamble on this race yet unless you call the tiny amounts this morning, a gamble.
Report rubyisgodinthesaddle April 29, 2012 4:00 PM BST
odds on early doors...out to 11/4.

Exact now moved from double figures into 5.4LaughLaugh
Report ilikewavingatbuses April 29, 2012 4:01 PM BST
exact backed here and fav gone for a walk.

like the look of exact here actually. nice looking horse.
Report ilikewavingatbuses April 29, 2012 4:03 PM BST
exact 2nd was pushed to lead but couldntLaugh

lets see...
Report ilikewavingatbuses April 29, 2012 4:03 PM BST
seamie pushing away!
Report rubyisgodinthesaddle April 29, 2012 4:03 PM BST
no gamble landed here on exact
Report ilikewavingatbuses April 29, 2012 4:05 PM BST
nej.
Report OnTheSnaff April 29, 2012 4:05 PM BST
Both Stuffed Laugh
Report rubyisgodinthesaddle April 29, 2012 4:05 PM BST
Well those 2 horses wont be winning very much.

Oxx sly dogCool
Report ilikewavingatbuses April 29, 2012 4:06 PM BST
smart winner.
Report OnTheSnaff April 29, 2012 4:06 PM BST
Though FOS ran a perfectly pleasing race if u ignore his morning price
Report Ozymandius April 29, 2012 5:47 PM BST
Magnier burned Laugh
Report wildmanfromborneo April 29, 2012 10:37 PM BST
Bassanio understands the gambling market and thankfully understands this thread.
Agree with On The Snaff Father Of Science will improve no end from that run.
Lots of Ballydoyle horses are punted by the ordinary public with no betting from the Ballydoyle insiders,some are punted by these same insiders and others the ones i tried to outline are done in my opinion by Magnier only.
I know Ozymandius is skitting but i have a feeling the Ballydoyle insiders had a real good day,they appeared to punt the bejaysus out of Kissed,not sure about Athens but feel thay were layers of Father Of Science.
Noticed at the Curragh recently Magnier in long and animated discussion with the biggest purple layer.
Report Bassanio April 29, 2012 11:28 PM BST
No question I would say that they punted Kissed.

There was initial money for Kissed in the morning, but it then dried up as uncertainty as to how fit she was seemed to take hold, which is understandable. She even moved back to 1.7 from 1.59 on here, although this is insignificant as liquidity is so poor.

However uncertainty quickly lifted in the 10 minutes before the race and she hardened up significantly. It is very difficult to believe that this was proper punters who started this. It would seem that those with full knowledge about her played and then as the question marks were removed, everyone else could join in.
Report wildmanfromborneo April 29, 2012 11:41 PM BST
Succintly put and in my opinion exactly how the market operated.
Report whatsthewordjohannesburg April 30, 2012 10:06 AM BST
test
Report RoyalAcademy April 30, 2012 11:07 AM BST
Hard to know the value of this original gamble: McCarthy in Saturday's Irish Field noted no more than a grand in recorded bets.

Are we ever going to get the breaking of omerta and maybe some of our bookie forum contributors will give a realistic appraisal of what went on?
Report wildmanfromborneo April 30, 2012 2:42 PM BST
I think the bets he spoke of were the hedging bets of Chronicle and others,Magniers bet would not be revealed.I accept this is conjecture but my read is Magnier strikes the big bet and Chronicle are then left to use their own contacts to get rid of as much as possible,they are not above hedging with a off course as well as on course layers.
The biggest purple layer appears to be on the team,their no questions asked no premium charge suits,so am fairly sure thats where the huge drift on Nephrite came from.
Report paddywhacker1970 April 30, 2012 3:13 PM BST
While there are undoubtedly big punters in the Coolmore/Ballydoyle camps, this thread reminds me of the sort of second guessing discussions that appear on the Horse Racing forum whenever Barney Curley has a runner. If they are backed and win, Barney has had it right off. If they are backed and get beat, Barney must have laid them. If they drift and get beat, it wasn't off a yard. If they drift and win, it was an SP job. One thing is for sure, the Coolmore/Ballydoyle lads get it wrong plenty of times too and rather than spending so much time trying to come up with a second guessing system to try and figure out what they may or may not fancy, would it not be better to spend the time studying form or paddock watching, which will reveal most of the reasons for the punts/drifts? This isn't a slaging post, people can do whatever they like and it makes for an interesting thread, but just an observation is all.
Report OnTheSnaff May 3, 2012 7:03 PM BST
So guys,whats the analysis on offer Crazy
Report rubyisgodinthesaddle May 5, 2012 3:44 PM BST
Look at Derrick Smith he looks like a Child.

Look at Magnier nowhere to be sighted. You can have all the money in the world but you cant buy class and Smith and Tabor are very classless people. Look at the way he nearly knocked over the lad bringing him in. Barely congradulated Joseph...

Say what you want about Magnier but he has a certain grace and class in everything he does regarding Horse Racing. The other duo could learn a lot from him.
Report Allduckornodinner May 5, 2012 4:04 PM BST
I don't see the attraction of it myself but leading in classic winners is probably one of the main reasons which attracted Smith into the fold in the first place. Wouldn't be too harsh in him if that's what he's into.

He could do with being a bit more gracious when trying to grab the lead rein though. Pat Keating saw him coming and tried to organize it so Smith could take hold of the horse but he still nearly knocked the stable lad out of the way. You'd think he'd have a bit more cop-on than that when it concerns a Montjeu colt walking behind them. Horse could have easily trod over one of them and caused a spill with all the people that were walking around him.

Great performance from the horse and coolness personified from Joey. Nice to see him keeping the faith in his own judgement and not panicking when still well off the pace. Derby looks at his mercy.
Report rubyisgodinthesaddle May 7, 2012 2:44 PM BST
Gamble on Triumphant!
Report Tony Fenton May 7, 2012 2:50 PM BST
gamble off
Report OnTheSnaff May 9, 2012 3:55 PM BST
FOS improved a lot from that run,who'd have thought it Wink
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