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A Pattern developing in Ballydoyle gambles.

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Replies: 248
By:
Bigwillystyle
When: 25 Apr 12 11:10
Not often i agree with the Wildclown but he is right on most of what he says.  They are a rancid outfit and can do what they like and are answerable to anybody.  They run Irish racing.  Never seen anybody to run half fit animals as much as these guys. 

On Tabor he always struck me as a bit of a mouth piece.  He is a pretty insignificant figure in that operation and wouldnt surpirse me if he didnt know what was going on.
By:
keen leader
When: 25 Apr 12 11:10
kavvie, many moons ago i was at leicester midweek for a jump fixture. tabor flew in by helicopter, a rarity at the time, think he had a runner that day trained by neville callaghan. in the space of less than 2 hours, he crashed the market on his own horse and after it got beat he went on tilt and left losing 6 figures in the ring. business wise tabor has done exceptionally well, punting horses, loads of leading bookies happily take his bets, says it all.
By:
kavvie
When: 25 Apr 12 11:14
fair enough keen but he must be worth 8/900 mill?im not saying hes a winner betting but surely his partners in coolmore wouldnt be setting him up to lose?
By:
Bigwillystyle
When: 25 Apr 12 11:19
Those boys would do anything to get a profit.  Cutting Tabor out would make no difference to them
By:
Ozymandius
When: 25 Apr 12 11:21
If he was being set up, and he discovers it, then surely he would leave the set-up immediately.  Though I am not sure how easy it would be to extract himself from the partnership.

SO IF he is being set up, and I cant believe that he is, it is surely not for the purpose of making a small few shekels at the bookies, but rather an attempt to force him out.
By:
Bigwillystyle
When: 25 Apr 12 11:26
Why would he leave?  Some of the best horses in the world carry his colours.  He losses a few Hundred k here and there no harm done. 
I wonder how much of a stake he has in these animals?  Doubt he has any share when they go to stud.
By:
Bigwillystyle
When: 25 Apr 12 11:26
Why would he leave?  Some of the best horses in the world carry his colours.  He losses a few Hundred k here and there no harm done. 
I wonder how much of a stake he has in these animals?  Doubt he has any share when they go to stud.
By:
wildmanfromborneo
When: 25 Apr 12 11:32
I don`t accept Tabor is as wealthy as ye all think and he needs Coolmore far more than they need him.
The Foot Soldier episode was designed to soften the cough of the agent mainly but the recklessness of Tabor and lack of punting ability cost him,sending instructions to get x amount of money on with price being irrelevant is lunacy.
The one thing about this recession is we don`t know who has been affected,there is no one above losing money.
Ye are all underestimating the amount of money these gambles have netted,my estimate they all exceeded 100 thousand so it is not pin money.
By:
p_r_e_m_i_e_r__f_a_n_t_a_s_y
When: 25 Apr 12 11:36
2009
Michael Tabor
USD 1,2 billion


His wealth ^
found that on the interent, how true i don't know
By:
Ozymandius
When: 25 Apr 12 11:41
He would leave immediately because any man that has enough about him to have made as much of a success of himself as Tabor has, does not accept being made a patsy of.  No chance.
By:
Bigwillystyle
When: 25 Apr 12 11:42
Coolmore cant be doing that well at the moment.  Most of their Stallions you can get for a song.  Their top NH stallion is advertised as 10K i think but sure you can get in for 4K.  The Sheik has quietened thier cough.  Hope he keeps going and puts them under even more pressure.
By:
wildmanfromborneo
When: 25 Apr 12 11:42
I would say a lot of that is stallion value.
As well as being a very poor gambler he also pays his agent 3% commission,that can only end one way in tears.
By:
Bigwillystyle
When: 25 Apr 12 11:44
In other words Wildclown you are calling Tabor a mug in the same mould as Stubby.
By:
SHANEBOY_FANTASY_WINS_2011_IRISH_DERBY
When: 25 Apr 12 11:49
.....you can't make this thread up..Laugh..now we have a escaped mental patient who thinks he knows everything about Coolmore and a sad individual who thinks he is some sort of genius and top punter calling Tabor a multi millionaire a mug..Laugh.....

.....the stupidity on here is unreal at times.....
By:
Temlett
When: 25 Apr 12 11:51
When has wildman said he was a top punter?

He is merely saying that Tabor is a clueless punter and not part of the cleverly planned gambles. The stitch up thing is different but keeping Tabor out of gambles looks very plausible given that he would ruin them straight away.
By:
SHANEBOY_FANTASY_WINS_2011_IRISH_DERBY
When: 25 Apr 12 11:54
.....perhaps you should read my post again!!!..Laugh..i was referring to Mr. small willy who has in the past tried to make out his is this great punter when he is just a loser bum..Laugh..anyway i will leave you kiddies to make up fairytales about people way more successful than any of you lot ever will be.....
By:
silvergreaser
When: 25 Apr 12 11:54
There might be some truth in what the wildman says but I find it almost fanciful to think Tabor is been left out in the cold.

This remember is the same Michael Tabor who was banned from British racing back in the 70's for paying off jockeys, this guy loves a tilt at the bookies and before the notorious Smiths joined the Coolmore fold, you knew when Tabor had his money down because he didn't care what price they were, often Ballydoyle hot pots would be backed as if defeat was out of the question, a 4/6 shot could become a 1/3 shot in a few minutes once the Tabor cash started to roll.
This was when you could actually trust the Coolmore machine the horses were always fit enough to do themselves justice then.
Cue along come the Smiths father and son who also love a tilt at the ring but were not willing to take any old price hence the amount of what should be Ballydoyle penalty kicks getting turned over in egg and spoon races only to be backed off the board next time when the naive bookies had read too much into the animals last run and gave a backable price when in fact the only reason the horse din't win was because the horse was simply not in any shape or form to do itself justice on the track.

The once trustworthy Ballydoyle bandwagon has been poisoned since the arival of the Smiths, Aiden is only doing what he is told, be it Yeats, Fame and Glory, SNA etc, good chance Nephrite will be another one, I see its entered in both guineas, and the 6f Greenlands it'll hardly take up its Epsom Derby entry unless he's used as a pacemaker, it will be interesting to see how Nephrites season progresses?.
By:
Temlett
When: 25 Apr 12 12:02
Yes Tabor punted like crazy and shouted from the rooftops about it. Danetime a prime example in his early days. He was never slow in telling people that such and such was a cert etc and that he had piled into it.

You do not get that from them these days. Even in the big races such as Camelot last year, the money poured on late but there was no bells and whistles about it. The second string winning gambles are never highlighted and never mentioned by those idiots reps for bookmakers every day.

How the gambles are orchestrated these days is anyone's guess, but it has certainly changed over the past number of years and I doubt whether a very heavy punter and happy publicity seeker has simply been told to keep his mouth shut and his wallet closed until instructed.
By:
wildmanfromborneo
When: 25 Apr 12 12:02
We all pay commission here so we know its a killer but we are betting into no profit books,he pays 3% commission into 40% profit books.
Historically all the big losing punters were multi millionaires so that status doesn`t guarantee success indeed the opposite,take any man out of his field of expertise and he will flounder,the same applies when they go buying horses.
By:
Allduckornodinner
When: 25 Apr 12 12:12
Whatever about gambling and that but since the economic downturn has hit Tabor has comfortably surpassed Magnier and the Smiths in wealth terms. That much I know for certain.

You'd hear all sorts of stories about Tabor. One of them concerns as very substantial bet struck in a private box with Victor Chandler on Statue of Liberty in the Coventry. Victor seemingly was seemingly in a very flustered state as the horses made their way to the start as he was worried if the boys he sent down to the ring to lay it off would get there in time.
By:
Temlett
When: 25 Apr 12 12:23
How can he punt with VC given that he owns a very substantial share of it?
By:
Allduckornodinner
When: 25 Apr 12 12:34
I was wondering this myself Temlett. I think it may have been a private bet between them. I wouldn't take much notice of stories like this only that the fella that I heard it from would have been in the box.

Regardless of how good or bad a punter he is I sincerely doubt that you could pull the wool over his eyes such as has been suggested on this thread.
By:
wildmanfromborneo
When: 25 Apr 12 23:56
I would love an answer from Redbait as to how this thread is a new low and how it is dangerous.
I will state again i am an admirer of Coolmore as they are the best in the business,i am an admirer of Aiden O`Brien as he is the best in the business and i was a bigger admirer of Vincent O`Brien as he was the best of all time.To be the best at anything you have to have a ruthless streak and they all had/have it.For as long as i remember owners have come and gone most have had some success but nearly all were cleaned out in the finish,i think a similar fate awaits Mr Tabor.
John Mulcahy   I retired to Ireland with enough money to live the high life,then i met Vincent O`Brien
Raymond Guest   I owned two Derby winners thank god i didn`t own a third
Patrick Gallagher   An Irish property developer who they roped in on one big deal[Try My Best]he later admitted it was his biggest ever business loss.
Stavros Niarchos    The Greek shipping magnate eventually had to admit he couldn`t afford it.
Danny Schwartz    This was the bravest cleaning of them all,he was the head of the New York mafia and he came out crying enough
Classic Thoroughbreds   Having run out of individuals they managed to rope in a group of small investors with the same result

Still think Tabors position is unassailable.
By:
tobywong.
When: 26 Apr 12 01:46
Laugh
By:
RoyalAcademy
When: 26 Apr 12 15:14
wildman you have the knacky habit of dispensing hyperbole wrapped in a shround of reasonableness. However you frequently manage to introduce topics of the most mouth-watering interest!

Vincent O'Brien recognised the need to find rich owners when he first started training on the flat in the late 50's/early 60's and found a rich seam to mine in the US, then the pre-eminent racing jurisdiction in the world I believe, and the Irish-American industrialist, John McShane (owner of his first Derby winner Ballymoss and one of "the Irish that build America"), may have been the first fish he landed.

He attracted plenty of these owners and they, by and large, had their days in the sun but certainly weren't "cleaned out" as you say. John A Mulcahy was a very close friend of MV's and, if he spent a little too much on American-breds then who could blame an ageing racing fan for his loyalty. Waterville golf club was John A's legacy to Ireland. Mulcahy was once the owner of Lyonstown Stud (now part of the Coolmore/Ballydoyle empire) and it was build along the lines of American barns.

Inspired by MV's success with US-breds, the Sangster/Magnier/O'Brien axis developed in the seventies (and helped themselves to plenty of petro-dollars) and did attract/target the vast fortunes of Stavros Niarchos (this bloodstock dynasty is still going strong in France mainly) and Danny Schwartz was probably the most unusual owner attracted to the syndicate. He did lose plenty but perhaps he had a laundry business that was extremely profitable!

With the demise of MV and Sangster into the 80's they couldn't compete against the Arabs (who recalls Racing Post headlines "Will Sh Mohammed/Goldolphin/Sh Hamdan win every Group 1 this year?"). John Magnier was developing a stallion business worldwide and only when MV retired did the dream of Ballydoyle become a spark of an idea. Aiden O'Brien was taken on to prove himself and it was a number of years before the massive investment in yearlings started to take place and the blue-bloods stayed in Tipperary rather than venturing to Newmarket or Chantilly.

John Magnier merely repeated the formula that produced The Minstrel, Golden Fleece, El Gran Senor and a myriad of other stakes horse when finding "equal" partners in Tabor and, more recently, Smith and with the Arab battalions constantly ranged against them it is absolutely critical that this syndicate works perfectly well for all concerned. It is truly remarkable how successful they have been competing against opponents with, literally, limitless amounts of cash; that they have succeeded and prospered is remarkable testimony to the genius of the man from Grange Stud.
By:
neill d
When: 27 Apr 12 05:16
I#m not following long enough to say what they have been doing in the past, but they've been making a big effort of late to diversify their stallion roster and seem to have gotten very tied up with Juddemont, even though I'd guess there has always been a strong link there. They have also been bringing in bits and pieces, (some bits bigger than other from Australia) and have bought from America the likes of Uncle Mo, from SA, MDK's Musir and the relatively local Canford Cliffs(Tagula WTF? gorgeous hoss, miler, precocious 2yo and all, but Tagula?) Also, they've tried to patch things up with the Maktoums, who seemed to restrict their buyers from bidding on Coolmore stock at the sales. They'd eventually get their hands on what they wanted, your Teofilos and New Approachs. Add to this, (I know most stallions are failures but) the relatively moderate performances of the expected Holy Roman Emperor, and typical middle distance types who retire at big fees but tend to struggle at stud like Dylan Thomas, Hurricane Run, Duke of Marmalade et cetera. Then there is the rumour that I've heard that they don't insure their stallions as the cut it would take out of their profits would be too much year on year. They instead choose to believe I've heard that the strength of the band will compensate for any loss and they would also posit that in having the best mares, they would have the capacity to 'make' a new stallion. this can be tough to do though when the book is so lopsided and what you're sending to stud as stallions are all Derby types who in the modern commercial breeding sense take too much time and often wind up throwing slow boats. With this in mind the loss of Montjeu might well have been a huge blow and places even more burden of the shoulders of the great Galileo and Fastnetrock from Oz. Note also that Galileo and Montjeu have yet to produce a son who has been successful at stud. Panic buys? flop stallions? Maybe they are in it a bit deeper than we think.
By:
wildmanfromborneo
When: 27 Apr 12 10:47
RoyalAcademy i agree almost entirely with your last post,i am an admirer of both Coolmore and Ballydoyle the wealth and prestige they have brought to this country can never be quantified.I also think that Magnier is a genius indeed in my assertions on this thread he has had to bring his expertise into the gambling side of things,Magnier quickly realised they were losing punting so he changed tack,spotted Tabor as the weak link and decided to punt for himself.In all the punts i outlined here Magnier struck the bets himself with a great strike rate,Tabor whose background is bookmaking has been shown up by the brilliant Magnier who has no such background.
By:
mincer11
When: 27 Apr 12 12:15
The amount of rubbish being uttered on this thread is simply incredible,people with no knowledge of these people pontificating as if they have.Allduckornodinner's one about the incident in Ascot is funny,as is keen leader's insinuation that Tabor is a mug punter.As for wildmanfromborneo,well he really is in fine form on this thread,the imagination is on speed by the looks of things.
By:
wildmanfromborneo
When: 27 Apr 12 12:23
Is there anything on this thread that you can refute,do you think Tabor is a good punter also did you even notice this new trend of Ballydoyle gambles.I ask these questions in a genuine non aggressive manner because i would be interested in your true views.
By:
mincer11
When: 27 Apr 12 12:55
Wildmanfromborneo,i appreciate the non aggressive tone so therefore i shall reciprocate.Now i havent read the full thread ,as it is a bit too time consuming,i just basically flick in and out.I have though read this page and some of it is comical to be honest.Tabor as most people will know is a big part of Coolmore,is also a big shareholder in VC,and although you do make a good point in relation to plenty of successful people in other businesses have met their waterloo at this racing game,you cannot apply that thinking to Tabor,because basically speaking this is his original business.He owned the Arthur Prince chain of betting shops in London before selling them on,he was warned off many years ago,so this is no greenhorn we are dealing with.He is originally from the EastEnd of London,so this man is well used to all sorts of funny dealings.Any person who pays 3p commission as long as he has is doing it for a reason,if he was a mug he could bet with anybody,that stands to reason.With the contacts he has ,i could think of alot better things to be doing than taking him on in a head to head battle.Keen Leader thinks otherwise but the chap is dreaming,anybody that lays him now does so to find out what he is backing,and no other reason.As for people thinking that he is the weakest link in the Coolmore Operation,well i couldnt actually nominate who that person is but it certainly isnt Tabor.
By:
wildmanfromborneo
When: 27 Apr 12 13:13
Tabor can`t bet with Power because of an incident at York,he is a volatile mercurial character.I accept your point about the 3% but for some strange reason he thinks this agent is a genius on here and knows how to get money on,Magnier and others thought this agent was feeding himself first hence the lesson which was as much against the agent as Tabor.Tabor bets with Chronicle and on all the gambles i outlined it was Magnier doing the punting nothing from Tabor and nothing from the agent,tis that i was referring to.
By:
Ozymandius
When: 27 Apr 12 13:20
Have you planted listening devices in the Kitchen at Coolmore, wildmanfromborneo?

You are remarkably well informed for a man who sits around all day and does little other than post on the internet.
By:
wildmanfromborneo
When: 27 Apr 12 13:28
I both work and go racing sometimes,i accept there is an element of conjecture but i maintain the facts as outlined speak for themselves.
By:
mincer11
When: 27 Apr 12 22:04
Wildmanfromborneo ,you will find that Tabor uses a whole host of agents to place wagers,not just the one you are referring to.As for betting with chronicle,the last time he had a bet with them I'd say our lord was in short pants.One final thing if Tabor was the mug that some clowns on here say he is there is no way in the world he would have had a falling out with him.When was the last time you saw a bookie having a row with a foolish punter.
By:
wildmanfromborneo
When: 27 Apr 12 23:10
I am one of the clowns who thinks he is a mug punter,i also definitely saw him betting with Chronicle on the Curragh Guineas day two years ago.Whatever you think of Powers as bookmakers on and off the track you have to concede that David Power is a soft spoken gentle decent man,he was accosted by Tabor at York where Tabor went berserk shouting screaming and foaming at the mouth,he abused him for a height with a tirade of curses much to the embarrassment of David Power,i believe he later apologised but it wasn`t accepted.
I think you are very harsh on Keen Leader and Allduckornodinner,have your disagreements if you like but you cannot deny they know their racing and give interesting contributions.
Finally i know Betfair are your bete noir but are these agents ever hit with the premium charge and would they pass this on or as seems likely to me no one wins on this bloody thing.
By:
Allduckornodinner
When: 28 Apr 12 00:53
As always mincer you read and skew things to your way of thinking. I think you will find that I merely passed on a story (not even fully sure whether it's true or not) about a successful punt of Tabors. I also stated that I would be very surprised to say the least if they managed to cut him out of the Coolmore axis and that he in fact now the wealthiest member of the group.

That was my only contribution to the thread so how you can interpret that as a slight against Tabor I do not know. If you have an agenda against me that's fair enough but at least talk some kind of sense and don't be just talking complete rope and making obviously wrong and baseless insinuations.

To be honest I know very little about Tabor other than whats in the public domain as I don't hawk around after agents and faces in the ring so who he punts with and who works on his behalf is of little interest to me.
By:
mincer11
When: 28 Apr 12 10:39
Allduckornodinner ,you relayed a story that a friend of yours told you who was bodily present in a box at Ascot.You then come on and tell us that you don't know whether it was actually true or not.Well it's either true or it isn't and if you didn't know whether it was or it wasn't then why did you bother telling us the story in the first place.It's as usual a complete bulllshhit story but who cares,that never bothered you before.Wildmanfromborneo ,I don't know anything about Power or this so called falling out you refer to,but one thing is for sure if Tabor was a mug then an apology wouldn't even be needed nor to mind be refused.As for the agents and the premium charge I can't help you there.
By:
Allduckornodinner
When: 28 Apr 12 11:23
Mincer you really are a basketcase. I outlined a story that I received from someone that would regularly be in that box during RA. I have little reason to doubt the person who told it but since I wasn't present myself I obviously can't state with absolute certainty that it happened. It's a pretty basic thing in life that you generally can't be 100% about stories you hear if you are receiving them secondhand.

This whole bloody thread had been built on the premise of a mixture of speculation, gossip, embellishment and a little fact including your own inputs so it is quite petty that you only mouth off about the people who you hold an agenda against though it is in keeping with your hypocritical nature.
By:
mincer11
When: 28 Apr 12 12:08
Now allduckornodinner the difference between me and you is I like to be able to believe what people are telling me,not just guessing whether they are or not.I would not relay a story to anybody unless I was 100% certain it was factual .Just for a moment picture the scene you painted,Mr Tabor has a bet with a company he is a major shareholder in,the front man for the said firm then directs a couple of half wits that he has working for him to head straight from the box down through the huge crowd to get to the betting ring to try and lay off on this said horse.Why with a presence on the rails would he not dial a number and give instructions to his staff that are already in the ring to do this job.It seems a little unbelievable to me but as you say yourself there is no shortage of embellishment on this and many other threads.
By:
silvergreaser
When: 28 Apr 12 12:57
Decent post Royal Academy, but I think you're just a little too top heavy in your praise, just say in hypothetical terms Sadlers Wells died prematurely in his first year at stud where would Coolmore be now?, neither Montjeu (now deceased) or Galileo (the current flag bearer) would ever have existed.

I've always said this it was either clairvoyancy on Magniers behalf or an incredible stroke of good fortune that Sadlers Wells was stood at Coolmore rather than be sold to stand in America which was par for the course for Ballydoyle blue bloods at that time, it just so happened the bottom was starting to fall out of the American market around that time.

The simple reason as to why Coolmore turned the tide against the Arabs was a horse named "Sadlers Wells".
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