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A Pattern developing in Ballydoyle gambles.

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Replies: 248
By:
Bassanio
When: 22 Apr 12 18:47
You are deluded if you think the big Coolmore players backed Nephrite. Unless you are talking about blind followers rather than the operation itself.
By:
rubyisgodinthesaddle
When: 22 Apr 12 18:56
Bassanio I ask you a simple question who made this horse 1.33 on here at one point? was trading around 1.6 or so last night. Takes big money to move it like that.

General Punters are putting 300 euro on a 4/11 shot I doubt it. Coolmore back there horses, i dont think anyone can deny that fact. They dont always get it right. Peanuts for them losing today. Had it right off with the 2yr old in the first. She was smashed up!!
By:
Bassanio
When: 22 Apr 12 19:10
I neither know nor care who backed it on here, but insiders in the operation certainly did not.

The statement AOB made after the race is one that likely mirrored what he said to the owners before the race. The horse has stamina limitations and would not have been at peak fitness. His class may have helped him get away with it, but money buyers rather than insiders would have punted it.

Of course general punters are putting 300 on 4/11 shots and do so regularly. Whether they are winners or losers is another thing but it is not a big bet to have on a horse at the price.
By:
punchestown
When: 22 Apr 12 20:04
The horse won a 24 runner 6f Maiden on soft ground @ the Curragh with its head on its chest on its debut before the Leopardstown win over a furlong further so either the horse was either strangled today or half fit and neither is acceptable.
By:
rubyisgodinthesaddle
When: 22 Apr 12 20:22
Can you trust what AOB said?? If I read it correctly Joseph was the one that said he was a sprinter after he came in. Now AOB had no idea that was the case before the race. He said he had trained well over the winter too boot.

"He won his maiden here over six furlongs and he wasn’t sure to get a mile. He has lots of speed but he was just found out on the ground.

"It's not looking likely that he will go for the Guineas now. Joseph was adamant when he came in that he is more of a sprinter.

"We didn’t know the strength of the race he won at Leopardstown. He trained well over the winter and showed lots of speed."


Coolmore could have easily just dutched the front 2??...after the antics of The Mulvaney horse he went in from around 9.6 into 5.5 very quickly.

Tbh I don't care if they did or they didn't but I do not believe for a second this was a stitch up. What would they have to gain. He could have been unfit, hated the ground not trained on or just a sprinter. How can you catergorically say Connections did not have a Bet on the favorite. I wonder who would risk such large sums on a Horse in early season prep that they have no info on. They must be fairly leisurely with there money for people to do that.

Coolmore have so much money they don't know what to do with it. They get it right many a time but they also get it wrong. Anyone remember Foot Soldier last year where he went off 2/9 opening at 1/2. They are horses flesh and blood.

Punchestown I was surprised he was beaten,I thought he would win but the way he travelled today there is a lot of hope for the future. Your case for strangelling was interesting as he was took a furious hold early even with Joseph pulling him as hard as he could. I wonder was there a simple hold him up strategy in place after the winner was going to make it a strong gallop and he come thru head in his chest and win. Didn't happen but the way he found zilch when Joseph went for him means there is a hell of a lot for him to work on. I say he this was his first proper work all year. Didn't look like he was the type that knew much for his first run of the season.
By:
ilikewavingatbuses
When: 22 Apr 12 22:46
the 2nd string was backed off the boards just before the off, dropped several points while i was watching.

'The winner was backed into 7-2 second favouritism before theoff, from 6-1.' RP




as far as i was concerned the sustained gamble was significant and duly won with the fav never sighted throughout having been ridden fairly prominently in its first 2 races.
By:
wildmanfromborneo
When: 22 Apr 12 23:48
I will say it again when they gamble one they are nearly always ridden from the front and that was some gamble,you can also take it that they were layers of Nephrite.
The most informative maiden last year was one in Leopardstown in August,Learn was backed from evens to 2/5 in a any price is a good price scenario,Learn was bounced out in front and went clear never seeing a rival, behind him were a host of non jiggers.I highlighted Akeed Mofeed immediately after the race and the Wafic horse who was sixth but this weekend yielded two more winners,Strata Colorato and Requisition.Learn is a moderate beast and no way superior but the Coolmore team consulted the other trainers who told them " not today " leading to the plunge and that is what i object to,this is now becoming regular especially in Dundalk.
By:
JayTrumpOldTomDubbl
When: 22 Apr 12 23:51
Just after this race today this thread came into my mind, as I remembered it from last year, and wildman is imho absolutely spot on.I'm very disappointed ruby that you seem blinded by this dispicable operation.Ballydoyle have in recent years have imho treated the punters with total disrespect, and loks like its going to continue after todays episode. As we saw this same conduct last year, Ballydoyle is no longer punter friendly, to the ordinary racegoer, or the man in the bookies office. How often have they ran 2 or 3 or more in the big races with only the insiders and Ladcrooks knowing whats what. Unfortunately it has become a dire operaton and in fairness to the great MV'O Brien he never operated in a manner like this. Punters are being taken for a ryde by this outfit and unless you are a privelged insider like Mike Dillon, Tabor et al you are just guessing.Even the boys on ATR today said Tabor's money was going on the outsider and for anyone to think that the insiders backed Nephrite,is beyond belief.These people are not fools. The stewards need to be alot more active and a few horse bans of 28 days or so would not be out of place. Again i say bring over the Indian stewards and get those bans going. This is not easy for me to say as I loved the ballydoyle setup for years and years. But, not anymore, sadly.
By:
ilikewavingatbuses
When: 22 Apr 12 23:58
empowering  won the 1000 guineas trial from the front last yr and was absolutely hammered in to 11/2 from about 20/1.
By:
wildmanfromborneo
When: 23 Apr 12 00:06
I think Nephrite has not trained on and they knew it,said nothing ,they were the layers of Nephrite and they certainly were the backers of Requisition.
Have a look at the Learn race in Leopardstown.
By:
Newmanix
When: 23 Apr 12 08:35
Very true wildman, jay, ilwab etc.  On another note, I have a suspicion that Frankel has not trained on either.  With so much hype surrounding this "best in the world" animal, I believe the injury scare last week is just an excuse for future flops this season.  I hope Im wrong though.
By:
itcanbedone
When: 23 Apr 12 10:01
I am a bit confused about how this all works? Please excuse my naivety!

So is it all down to Tabor then?  Or are there other big cheeses at Coolmore who can be bothered with gambling?  I thought there were other more important things at stake for these guys and that they would be above bothering with winning a few quid here and there?

And how does the gamble take place?  On here, presumably, as I am forever hearing that shrewd gamblers cannot get on with traditional bookmakers.  Or do they choose to take Tabors bets  for educational purposes? And if it is on here, how is it achieved without looking very obvious to Betfair?
By:
jair1970
When: 23 Apr 12 10:08
This had all the hallmarks, and anyone whom thinks otherwise is being naive.

As for the stewards doing something, I'd say unlikely, given they've raised the weights to keep Joseph in a job this year. Laugh

To those that complain?  If you can't beat 'em, join 'em.  There are clear signs when one of these goes down that don't take a genius to notice.
By:
wildmanfromborneo
When: 23 Apr 12 15:02
Itcanbedone for the purposes of these gambles Tabor is left out,Magniers strikes the bets with Chronicle they try to offload as much as possible also using their own exchange.Tabor is a frequent and poor punter and so the ring is alerted to any gamble that he is involved in,he is also forced to trade at low prices and perceived to be a leak.The hallmarks of these gambles are second string,not a whisper around,big price[read opening post]and always ridden from the front with the stable first string out the back looking on.
Newmanix you could be right but very few three year olds don`t train on,far more common from two to three.
By:
SHANEBOY_FANTASY_WINS_2011_IRISH_DERBY
When: 23 Apr 12 15:51
.....Is this all fact or is it just you guessing?..Can you prove any of what you are posting?..I only ask as you seem to know all about them.....
By:
itcanbedone
When: 23 Apr 12 17:19
Thanks, wmfb.  interesting.  And how much would Mr Magnier want to be winning in a race like yesterday, before he would bother getting involved?  A fair bit, presumably?  And is it just for the love of a gamble, or would it, over the course of a season add up to a very substantial amount?
By:
JayTrumpOldTomDubbl
When: 23 Apr 12 18:29
Shaneboy, its just like in a Criminal Court Case where one is entitled to draw inferences, from evidence produced, or from the failure of a defendant to give answers. In this case the evidence put up here by wildman is there for all to see. We know the gambles are taking place, we know the horse is winning, and we know the horse that the ordinary punter thinks should win,( on a far superior formline ) is not winning.Who do you think is backing these horses ?.Draw your own inferences, and all I would say to itcantbedone is it is beingdone and its maybe alot to do with one upmanship,and gamesmanship, and its being done to the detriment of the game. It sad that AP is treating the punter in this manner as he is, from what I have heard quite a decent bloke.
By:
RoyalAcademy
When: 23 Apr 12 18:48
Why do we never hear from bookmakers in these instances?

It must be accepted as part of the rough and tumble of the game and if those on the inside are close/connected to bookmaking firms then its all very incestuous.

wildman: your theory on Tabor being "left out" stretches the imagination. He may be told to take a back seat (unlikely even as that is) and its inconceivable he's not party to such plots. After all he owns the darn animals and is shelling out a few squillion annually to have them trained by the chief orchestrator's (and his minions) man. last time anyone checked MT is hardly an idiot.
By:
neill d
When: 23 Apr 12 19:38
Relatively precocious son of Pivotal (they tend to take a while so he is something of a rare commodity) with a really fast classy pedigree on the dams side, personally I can't see why they would muck around given what he could earn at stud with just another few pattern wins this year. I'd say he either hasn't trained on or didn't stay like they made out, but that isn't to say that the stable didn't know that this was a likely scenario, they bet like there was a **** in Nephrite. They might of looked at it as win/ win. If Nephrite somehow stayed, they had a horse for a classic campaign, if he didn't, they land a nice touch and send the stallion prospect back sprinting.

Given his pedigree, I'd say he probably should train on and it could be that he has put on a bit of weight and is now a more muscular sprinting type.
By:
neill d
When: 23 Apr 12 19:39
can't say the word c h i n k now
By:
ilikewavingatbuses
When: 23 Apr 12 20:22
one would also imagine being a son of pivitol that he would love the mud. i would not accept the going as the reason myself. perhaps he is a non stayer, whatever happened, they knew it pre race.
By:
wildmanfromborneo
When: 23 Apr 12 22:02
The impressive part of these gambles is the way they have kept it quiet,the bookies grapevine isin`t working,there is nothing even leaking on here,these are select and disciplined operations.The early ones i witnessed were started by Magnier himself that is unusual,the most regular punter from there is Tabor and he is reckless and a serial loser,he uses a particular agent.The inner circle correctly realised that the agent was using the Tabor information and forcing them to trade at low prices so to soften his cough they put Tabor wrong,also they realised they had to cut him out to keep it secret.It is easy to suss what horse Tabor fancies by looking at that agents board and the ones he doesn`t fancy,this agent doesn`t seem to have the wit to disguise his information.
I am probably alone in thinking Coolmore are under financial pressure but the row with the Arabs has taken its toll,they have tried to sue for peace by running their horses in Dubai,where the Arabs have put the bite on Coolmore is by not allowing their trainers buy Coolmore stock this has forced breeders to desert some Coolmore stallions or demand huge discounts,the Arabs have also underpriced their own stallions forcing downward pressure on the market again.I don`t dislike Coolmore and i think they have been great for Irish racing and i enjoy their international success.
By:
JayTrumpOldTomDubbl
When: 23 Apr 12 22:13
I dont dilike Coolmore either, its the racing operation from Ballydoyle that I have grown to mis-trust and therefore dislike, I did like it when the great MV O"B was in control and indeed the early years with AP were good fun also, but not anymore. In Coolmore I did love Saddlers Wells, and one of my all time favs was Caerlion and he has a studfarm named after him, and thats good 2
By:
rubyisgodinthesaddle
When: 23 Apr 12 22:16
Still cant buy this was fix lads. Can not buy it what so ever.

Just don't see the upside. At best they won what 500k??...they spend that in a heartbeat.

I be watch this space with interest! Also remember its in there interest for Colts especially to go off short prices for future stallion career.
By:
huddys
When: 23 Apr 12 22:33
have to say very interesting reading the thread,particular the input wildman posting,very good thread,well done to all on their insight to the going on of coolmore
By:
wildmanfromborneo
When: 23 Apr 12 22:38
No one is saying its a fix but they certainly knew that Nephrite wasn`t going to win and they managed to keep it to themselves,they also knew that Requisition was fit to run for his life and although moderate was good enough to beat the dire opposition.
One thing i can guarantee is that Requisition will win nothing of note if anything ever again.
By:
soldieroffortune
When: 23 Apr 12 22:43
Hard to believe all the negativity aimed at Coolmore and Ballydoyle on here. The whole operation does a huge amount to heighten the profile and the quality of Irish Racing.
By:
wildmanfromborneo
When: 23 Apr 12 22:52
Thats a given and i take great pride in their success but they can`t be immune from criticism.
By:
itcanbedone
When: 24 Apr 12 02:22
Do I have this right?

Tabor has been 'put wrong' and 'cut out'.  Wildmanfromborneo knows this, but Tabor himself, it appears, is unaware of it.
By:
RoyalAcademy
When: 24 Apr 12 15:45
exactly itcantbedone.

Michael Tabor's spend/contribution to Irish and international bloodstock conservatively valued at $100m+.

And he's a bit player for Curragh touches landing a few grand; has a real ring of truth to it. maybe evidwence of where he (Michael Tabor, not some putative agent) was conned ("put......wrong") would help?

If you followed Coolmore gambles over the years you'd be in the poor house.

the bookies omerta is impressive with hardly a single opinion on this thread from that quarter....what are we missing?
By:
wildmanfromborneo
When: 24 Apr 12 21:48
RoyalAcademy is dead right when he says " if you followed Coolmore gambles over the years you`d be in the poor house " and tis that that brought the change of policy.These new type gambles are Magnier ones and Tabor is cut out because he is considered the leak and for these to be successful it is vital that everyone stays quiet,also they are landing far more than a couple of grand.Tabor is a hopeless punter,he backs far too frequently in far too many markets and he chases,he also lets the cat out of the bag,his use of one particular agent has caused trouble as that agent availed of the biggish prices for himself leaving the main men trading at the lowest prices.The horse picked for the lesson was Foot Soldier[i think] in a two year old maiden at Leopardstown,the word was put out that this was a serious two year old and any price was a good one,Tabor moved advised his agent to get what he could on,the usual happened the agent took his own slice first and then invested Tabors money,his bet was so vast that it forced the horses price from 4/6 to 2/9,that Tabor had no cut off point for price will show how poor a gambler he is,the inevitable happened and he got beaten.
The reason there is no squealing from the bookies is they are getting plenty from Tabor but when they cotton on to the different style of gamble they may change tack.
By:
Ozymandius
When: 24 Apr 12 23:08
How does Tabor feel about the new approach?  If you have figured it out then presumably he has too?
By:
SHANEBOY_FANTASY_WINS_2011_IRISH_DERBY
When: 25 Apr 12 08:37
.....wilmanfromborneo posting rubbish..has this ever happened before?.....Tabor is a leak?..Tabor is a hopeless punter?..He backs too much and chases?.....

.....Again i guarantee this man cannot prove any of what he is saying and it is all in his crazy mind..he probably dreamt all this one night so decided it must be real.....
By:
kavvie
When: 25 Apr 12 09:18
this is the funniest thread i read in a long while..im sure tabor is conducting a root and branch investigation into the "lads"fooling him as we speak.the poor man must be livid!!..and him owning stallions all over the world some of which wouldnt raise their front legs for under 200k(tax free!!)
By:
redbait
When: 25 Apr 12 09:32
A new low for the forum. The sad thing is, there seem to be a fair few newcomers on this thread that are actually believing some of this stuff. Bit of advice lads, don't repeat any of this in public.
By:
wildmanfromborneo
When: 25 Apr 12 10:51
Redbait how is this a new low ? what should they not repeat in public ? its a discussion on gambling.Many times i have stated that Willie Mullins doesn`t gamble but that doesn`t mean his horses aren`t gambled,John Oxx the same,some of ye think this thread is a slur on Aiden O`Brien it most definitely is not.
Ye can`t deny that a change took place in some of the betting patterns of O`Brien trained horses last year,i listed them chapter and verse.Many times in his career O`Brien has won [not unlike John Oxx] with his second and third string,many times there was differing word for his horses but last year the change was in a few select races they had the favourite and the second string which was backed late and there was no word from anywhere.We all know that a horse only has to cough and it will be reflected here,yet in these gambles nothing got out,that means no staff member has leaked anything that to me was impressive.
Again i have long been saying you learn a lot about the O`Brien horses by the wat they are ridden,the gambled on ones are all ridden aggressively from the front but the real good ones are tenderly ridden from off the pace,Camelot in Leopardstown the best example,they also seem to go off unbacked by the inner circle.
Foot Soldier at Leopardstown was backed from 4/6 to 2/9 and we know him to be useless so would it be fair to say that the person backing that for such huge sums was put wrong,would it also be fair to say that a gambler when backing a horse has no cut off regarding price is a poor one,there was only one punter backing Foot Soldier.
I am surprised at Kavvie as he is a racegoer and it isin`t hard to follow who is backing what.Two of the biggest punters in the Irish ring were fellow county men of his and the unfortunate Timmy O`Toole was at Shelbourne one night when he was given a ropey tip for a dog,he sent his men into action in a very weak market result dog in Foot Soldier type fashion shortened into 1/4 yielding this sad retort " he must be fancied they are all backing it now "
By:
kavvie
When: 25 Apr 12 10:56
do you realise how wealthy michael tabor is or have you ann idea at all?a fun bet for him might be 50k.im a bigger fool to be entertaining you.yes gambles do go wrong.horses are horses.its happening all the time.and yes people do get set up all the time.but the"lads "setting up m tabor?!!?
By:
kavvie
When: 25 Apr 12 11:00
and i agree the above  2 unfortunate men you refer to were shamefully set up time after time by the parasites that were in the ring at that time.
By:
wildmanfromborneo
When: 25 Apr 12 11:02
I think they were trying to plug the leak also i am not as sure as you about the wealth of these people,i have long stated that Coolmore are under some financial pressure,disagree with me if you like but why so angry.
By:
Ozymandius
When: 25 Apr 12 11:09
Well if they were under financial pressure, surely the last thing they would adopt is a strategy to 'cut out' or 'put wrong' Tabor.  What will the fallout be if he ever does figure out that he is now (allegedly) a patsy Cry????
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