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23 Jan 24 09:55
Date Joined: 05 Oct 11
| Topic/replies: 18,227 | Blogger: differentdrum's blog
Question arose because (form books permitting) I like to compile full records of horses when I first became interested. Yesterday, I did The Spaniard who was a very consistent handicapper through the 60's and early 70's. He won a George Duller, Fred Withington, and a relatively weak Scottish National. According to what I could find he won 29 races (3 Flat, 13 Hurdles and 13 Chases), winning every year bar his 2yo season. Very likely he would have reached 30 had his novice chase season (68/69) not been curtailed.

Timeform didn't give a breakdown of where he won on the Flat in 1965. I would be grateful if anyone had that information.

I know the likes of Bula, Credit Call, and Night Nurse all won 30 plus races, but has any horse managed to do it since then?
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Report GEORGE.B January 23, 2024 10:00 AM GMT
Flying Ace?

But don't know how many came under rules
Report mrcombustible January 23, 2024 10:18 AM GMT
I remember the Spaniard.

Was it trained by Ken Oliver and possibly ridden by Barry Brogan for some of his victories?

Credit Call was a hunter chaser?
Report N-east Correspondent January 23, 2024 10:24 AM GMT
not sure what the answer is to question differentdrum, but the Hunter Chase yesterday when Tea Clipper ran
reminded me of a older hunter chase horse with a similar name Tea Planter looked it up on RP and he won
24 out of 38 with 8 seconds under rules, and 3-4 in PTP with a third absolutely prolific round the gaffs
ran in Christie HC at Festival a few times and finished 2nd once albeit in a five runner field behind odds on Double Silk

still not 30 but looking up older horses is a real trip down memory lane when you see the names of horses and connections from past days Cool
Report differentdrum January 23, 2024 10:27 AM GMT
The Spaniard was trained on the Flat by a J Sorrie who I know nothing about, then went to Oliver and ended with Richards. The Spaniard wasn't in the same class as stablemate Young Ash Leaf who only won 12 races, but was retired to stud at 8.

Credit Call was a prolific hunter chaser, initially for Chris Collins. My first day's racing included seeing him winning the Horse And Hound Cup by a short head, and Persian War gaining his last ever win.

Pensham won over 40 points, but I was thinking about under rules. She was related to Sally Furlong who won at the Festival, and produced the promising, but ill fated, Romany Furlong.
Report brians January 23, 2024 10:27 AM GMT
Supermaster won 34 races in the 60s . Not sure if all were jumps but he was a great hurdler of Arthur Stephenson I think. I saw him win in a snowstorm at Wetherby when I was about 12 , going with my dad, who backed him every time he ran.
Report differentdrum January 23, 2024 10:31 AM GMT
So far I haven't done Supermaster purely because of the amount of work involved. He seemed to run nearly every week.
Report brians January 23, 2024 10:31 AM GMT
Just confirmed he did  win 34 over jumps.
Report brians January 23, 2024 10:32 AM GMT
If you search Supermaster horse,, ther are several websites that tell his story.
Report sparrow January 23, 2024 10:40 AM GMT
Supermaster brings back the memories .
Report DIFERENT GRAVY 12 January 23, 2024 10:43 AM GMT
Provideo won 28 races as a 2yo for W.A.O'Gorman all within 9 weeks in the early 1980's. Laugh
Report hillside January 23, 2024 10:45 AM GMT
Crudwell Between 1950 and 1960 won 43 over jumps and 7 on the flat.His biggest win was the Welsh Grand National.Trained by Frank Cundell and sometimes ridden by Dick Francis.
Report saxon farm January 23, 2024 10:54 AM GMT

Provideo won 16 as a 2 year old.
Report differentdrum January 23, 2024 10:55 AM GMT
Excellent Facebook page for Stephenson & Smith Nostalgia. Picture of Geordie Lad winning the 1970 Graduates Hurdle with plenty of well known names finishing behind.
Report elise January 23, 2024 11:35 AM GMT
has anyone mentioned dessie?
Report elise January 23, 2024 11:40 AM GMT
maybe limestone lad?
Report differentdrum January 23, 2024 11:45 AM GMT
Off Wikipedia - Desert Orchid 34, Limestone Lad 35.
Report TommyWestofLanark January 23, 2024 11:53 AM GMT
J.Sorrie trained at Inverurie near Aberdeen and I can only recall him training flat horses, can't remember him training  The Spaniard.
Report elise January 23, 2024 11:59 AM GMT
loved limestone, sadly never got a break with the ground at chelt, also solerina that followed, not quite as good but a terrific mare
Report TommyWestofLanark January 23, 2024 12:06 PM GMT
I was at Ayr when both The Spaniard and Young Ash Leaf won their Scottish Nationals. It was not a great field for The Spaniard's race (firm ground ?) B.Brogan. I remember Young Ash Leaf jumped very well and looked the winner four out. P.Ennis.
Report GoBallistic January 23, 2024 1:05 PM GMT
My initial hunch was there must be some Pipe-trained frontrunner winning loads of races in lower grades in the 80s and 90s. The only one I can find that comes close is Skipping Tim who started with Hobbs finally won a seller and then went to Pipe's where he won 26/52 over fences (plus a point). Highest hcp winning mark of 135 and also a lot of wins in sellers/claimers.
Report dambuster January 23, 2024 1:11 PM GMT
Constitution Hill could win 30 races if he raced until he was 47
Report ged January 23, 2024 1:15 PM GMT
dd - The Spaniard won 3 on the trot as a 3yo in 1965, at Hamilton (10f), Ayr (11f), and then Hamilton(12f) again. Brian Henry rode on the first 2 occasions, and Jackie (J.E.) Armstrong on the 3rd. Dates were May 24, May 29, and June 19 - the latter 2 were Saturdays.
Report Rico-Dangleflaps January 23, 2024 1:19 PM GMT
didnt sea pigeon win 37?
Report Hayden January 23, 2024 1:20 PM GMT
dambuster  Grin
Report sparrow January 23, 2024 1:26 PM GMT
Yes dambuster, very true Grin
Report ged January 23, 2024 1:39 PM GMT
John Sorrie sold The Spaniard at Doncaster sales in August of 1965 for 1900gns. It was his last year of training, and he gave up to concentrate on his turkey farming. He'd taken out his licence in 1950, and had success with horses he owned and bred. Glenlythan won 14 for him, and Windyedge 10, and he bred both of them, both by his own stallion Rocket, who was unraced, and died aged 28 in 1969. His colours were white, scarlet diamonds, quartered cap.
Report geoff m January 23, 2024 1:52 PM GMT
Correct Rico
Report geoff m January 23, 2024 1:54 PM GMT
If Constitution Hill retains his form and runs until hes 25 .Could get 30 on the board.
Report TommyWestofLanark January 23, 2024 2:24 PM GMT
Ged. Thanks again for the information on The Spaniard. As I've said many times I am only going on my recollections of those times. Your mention of Windyedge at Hamilton. I am sure the races that day were televised by the BBC, and could have been a morning start because of an international or cup final. It could have been the 1st televised coverage of Hamilton also. I didn't attend that day but seem to remember it was wet and heavy going. I may be mixed up with another Saturday morning at Hamilton when a horse trained by John Dunlop won. Another two from J.Sorrie were Shuttlecock and Abernicky at the time.
Report differentdrum January 23, 2024 2:26 PM GMT
Thanks ged for the race details, and the extra information on the trainer.
Report elise January 23, 2024 2:29 PM GMT
bit disappointed with your info ged, normally you're pretty good but there's no mention of what colour socks sorrie was wearing when he went to the sales
Report Cardinal Scott January 23, 2024 2:53 PM GMT
I thought it might have been the splendid nag

Better Times Ahead

who was still winning at aged 15
Report dambuster January 23, 2024 2:56 PM GMT
When i was a teenager,1978/79 ish , there was a Chaser called Carrigeen Hill, I'm sure that won quite a few races
Report dambuster January 23, 2024 2:57 PM GMT
Sonny summers won at 18 and Mac Vidi i think was placed in a gold cup at 15.
Report penzance January 23, 2024 2:58 PM GMT
Night Nurse,he won a few.
Report Cardinal Scott January 23, 2024 3:00 PM GMT
Edredon Bleu won many and they weren't egg and spoon races either.
Report geoff m January 23, 2024 3:02 PM GMT
35 Penzance.
Report elise January 23, 2024 3:02 PM GMT
yes i checked edredon, did also have a think about pipes but most of his seemed to come from nowhere, last 2 seasons and be done for
Report Cardinal Scott January 23, 2024 3:05 PM GMT
I do remember Celcius (or Celsius) winning an awful lot of poor races for Pipe in one season and prob alot more in other seasons

It impressed me at the time.
Report elise January 23, 2024 3:08 PM GMT
didnt rem that one, i went for the more obvious ones that stuck around like well chief, think it was mid 20s
Report penzance January 23, 2024 3:09 PM GMT
Would've thought Istabraq & Hurricane Fly would be up there as prolific wnrs?
Report ged January 23, 2024 3:11 PM GMT
Tommy - I might struggle to find that day. Windyedge was beaten a neck by Dalnamein in the 1960 November Handicap at Manchester, at 50/1. 30 ran. That probably took place in the wet!

Windyedge was 7yo then, and still entire. Amongst the unplaced horses was the next year's Champion Hurdler, Eborneezer, ridden by 5lb claimer Johnny Haine.
Report Cardinal Scott January 23, 2024 3:15 PM GMT
Clever Folly also won an awful of races for Gordon Richards

Arthur Stephenson would have had some candidates but I can only remember 2 horses he ever trained at all Blazing Walker and The Thinker
Report elise January 23, 2024 3:19 PM GMT
before my time although i have a friend that worked for arthur and later dickenson, i should have asked him lol
Report Cardinal Scott January 23, 2024 3:29 PM GMT
Just looked up Clever Folly 29 wins that I can see
Report Cardinal Scott January 23, 2024 3:31 PM GMT
Racing Post database seems to begin at 1988

If anyone knows of any on-line resource that goes back further Do Share
Report elise January 23, 2024 3:32 PM GMT
Report elise January 23, 2024 3:33 PM GMT
which horse were u after before 88?
Report Cardinal Scott January 23, 2024 3:34 PM GMT

Jan 23, 2024 -- 3:33PM, elise wrote:

which horse were u after before 88?

I thought Corporal Clinger might have been a candidate

Report WolfJFlywheel January 23, 2024 3:37 PM GMT
Suluk won eighteen hurdle races on the Southwell fibresand. Not thirty but if ever there was an all-weather jumping specialist, it was him.
Report elise January 23, 2024 3:38 PM GMT
just tried another place but no joy sorry, i used to use a few sites for pedigree / dosage and some of the horses carry run history but not that horse sorry, i wasn't joking about ged
Report Cardinal Scott January 23, 2024 3:42 PM GMT

Jan 23, 2024 -- 3:37PM, WolfJFlywheel wrote:

Suluk won eighteen hurdle races on the Southwell fibresand. Not thirty but if ever there was an all-weather jumping specialist, it was him.

Ah yes an ex Hamdan Al Maktoum

He had another one whos dam was Midway Lady (100 Guineas & Oaks winner) that won loads of races at Sedgefield of all places, can't remember its name

Report elise January 23, 2024 3:45 PM GMT
i can help on looking that one up, fatehalkair
Report elise January 23, 2024 3:45 PM GMT
or fatehalkhair even
Report Cardinal Scott January 23, 2024 3:47 PM GMT

Jan 23, 2024 -- 3:45PM, elise wrote:

or fatehalkhair even


Report Tiger Tiger January 23, 2024 5:18 PM GMT
Most recent prolific winners I can find:

Stand Guard - John Butler (Alice Haynes) 28 wins, last win Jan 2018

Desert Strike - Connor Page (Andrew Page) 26 wins, last win Feb 2017

La Estrella - Don Cantillon owned and trained, last win Mar 2017
Report Tiger Tiger January 23, 2024 5:18 PM GMT
*La Estrella - 29 wins.
Report TommyWestofLanark January 23, 2024 6:39 PM GMT
Ged- Thanks again for jogging my memory of Dalnamein winning the Manchester Handicap,never knew Windyedge was 2nd. That was the year I first became interested in racing. Think I saw Dalnamein winning at Musselburgh in the early sixties.
Pretty sure all the November Handicaps were run on heavy ground then.Laugh
I'm still confident about BBC at Hamilton and Windyedge running. The other time I mentioned the tv morning start was a bit later and probably was on ITV. The J.Dunlop winner was Daniel.
Report blackbarn January 23, 2024 8:09 PM GMT
I have great affection for the Manchester Handicap. It was one of my Uncle Jack's favourite races. In the 60's he seemed to back the winner every year, which he didnt of course, but his Towser link was of considerable help.
Report screaming from beneaththewaves January 23, 2024 9:49 PM GMT
@ Cardinal Scott: Celcius (sic):

Celcius was born in 1984 and ran his first 9 races for trainer Ian Balding.  He ran an amazing 97 times and won 20 times.  Peter Scu won on him 6 times, Dunwoody 3, Dascombe 3, Bridgwater 2, Lower 2, Rory MacNeice 2 (now defends jockeys in trouble) and Nick Moore 2.  He also made the frame 32 times.  He was not a very big horse but we would like a few more like him!

Celcius is still enjoying himself and can be regularly seen out hunting locally.

Features a picture of Celcius getting ready for a day's hunting a few years ago.
Report DonegalPrince January 23, 2024 10:18 PM GMT
Dambuster, Sonny Somers was the oldest horse to win a race I think, as opposed to the most prolific. Imagine owning that lovely nag!
Report Happy Jack January 23, 2024 11:11 PM GMT
If P-t-Ps count:

Chesnut Annie won 40 races (38 P-t-P, 2 under Rules) 2006-2015
Lady Myfanwy won 35 races (30 P-t-P, 5 under Rules) 2006-2013
Report sageform January 24, 2024 9:01 AM GMT
My brother owned and trained a ptp/hunter chaser called Presentandcorrect. He started out with Philip Hobbs and first ran in November 2005 as a 4yo. His first win was as a 6yo over hurdles. He then went to Carl Llewellyn and then Nigel Twiston Davies before my brother bought him in March 2012. He won his last ptp as a 16yo in April 2017 before sadly falling and getting kicked at Stratford forcing retirement. He ran in every season that he was in training so a total of 13 years. He won 18 times including ptps and had 16 second places.
Report ged January 24, 2024 9:32 AM GMT
Flying Ace was mentioned earlier. He won 59 races, the last in 1991, 36 ptps, 23 hunter chases, including the 1985 Horse and Hound at Stratford (he was also 2nd and 3rd in it). He won his first 17 points, starting at age 7. He was by Saucy Kit, the 1967 Champion Hurdler, and was foaled at the Blakeley Stud of Roy Edwards, who rode Saucy Kit. His win total should have been 60, but the weight cloth came off one day at Kelso just before the line.
Report dambuster January 24, 2024 4:15 PM GMT

Jan 23, 2024 -- 10:18PM, DonegalPrince wrote:

Dambuster, Sonny Somers was the oldest horse to win a race I think, as opposed to the most prolific. Imagine owning that lovely nag!

A wonderful servant

Report tomo1984 January 24, 2024 4:58 PM GMT
It's not 30, but I still think Kauto's 23 wins, with 16 being G1s is pretty mighty.

Finished outside the top three once when completing in 35 career starts and only ran outside of G/L company five times in his 41 starts.

From the day he hit the deck in the Queen Mum in 06, to the day that Denman beat him in the GC in 08, he won 9 of 10, with 7 G1's, from 2m to 3m2f and was only downed when trying to give a stone to an inspired Monet's Garden around the grey's beloved Aintree.

Then even after the GC and being done by Our Vic at Aintree, he still came back to win his next 6 completed starts, all G1's, including hammering Denman in 09 to take back the GC and a 36(!!!) length romp in the same year's KG.

And to finish it all off we still got those two glorious days at Haydock and Kempton in 2011, when he rolled back the clock to add a fourth BF Chase and 5th KG to the palmares.

Horse of a lifetime.

Honourable mentions for Hurricane Fly, 24 wins from 32 starts over jumps, with 22 being G1's and never failed to complete.  Two CH wins and two thirds.

And Big Bucks, 23 of 40, with 10 G1's and 18 wins in a row, including four World Hurdles.
Report differentdrum January 24, 2024 5:12 PM GMT
Those horses just indicate a totally different era when horses ran less often, were picky about ground, and avoided handicaps like the plague. Had Arkle been around he could have had one exhibition after another, but it wouldn't have confirmed just how good he was.
Report tomo1984 January 24, 2024 5:28 PM GMT
Well the overall standard is far higher now than in the 1960's, like any other sport.
Report elise January 24, 2024 5:54 PM GMT
that's going to start a debate lol
Report sageform January 24, 2024 5:58 PM GMT
Yes much more competitive now. Plenty of very uncompetitive races around in the 60s and 70s.
Report differentdrum January 24, 2024 6:17 PM GMT
The vintage era of hurdling is well acknowleged as being 68-81. Never been the same since.

Yes, the condition races over fences were not great in the 60's, but that was more than balanced by the handicaps with Arkle giving two stone or more to horses that would now be considered to be Grade 1.

The Mackeson, Massey-Ferguson, Hennessy, and Whitbread were all massively better than they are now. Today's versions are unrecognisible. You regularly got Champion Hurdle types running in races like the Schweppes because they didn't have today's easy alternatives.
Report Tiger Tiger January 24, 2024 6:43 PM GMT
Please name the horses that you think Arkle would give two stone to and would now be considered Grade 1 winners.
Report hulk23 January 24, 2024 6:52 PM GMT
Suluk won eighteen hurdle races on the Southwell fibresand.

and didn't suffer one fatal fall, which at the time was no mean feat ...
Report tomo1984 January 24, 2024 7:00 PM GMT
and didn't suffer one fatal fall

Any you know of that suffered two?
Report Tiger Tiger January 24, 2024 7:05 PM GMT

Arkle The Greatest Steeplechaser Ever

A good watch.

Flyingbolt fans?
Report differentdrum January 24, 2024 7:18 PM GMT

I am not exactly sure what you are asking, but other than Flyingbolt, Arkle has a Timeform rating much higher than anything else. I am not going to dispute that rating.

If you really want to understand that rating I would suggest reading a book on the horse, and then doing a bit of research on racing in the 60's.
Report elise January 24, 2024 7:41 PM GMT
if you take the view that it's more competitive now as above, is that saying we've a more level playing field when it comes to training or are you saying the horse population is on average better (or both)?

When you take in scientific advances, vets, feed, training expertise should they not be better overall?  if you take that as a fair point then how are the likes of arkle, who you also have to rem was jumping stiffer fences not even being closely approached in terms of rating 50 plus years on?
Report Tiger Tiger January 24, 2024 7:46 PM GMT
I wasnt disagreeing with you dd, as great a horse Arkle was I'm not so sure that he would give 2 stone away to other Grade 1 winners, he certainly was capable of giving 16lb away but 28lb, I'm not so sure. Its always difficult to compare previous eras with todays horses and I'm one of those that thinks recent generations are not given enough credit, seems to be the way these days though 'everything yesteryear' was better than anything today or recent seems to be the opinion of most oldtimers.

Heres an article from 13 years ago by Greg Wood (Handicapper) of The Guardian:

Greg Wood
Kauto Star is as close to the limit of brilliance as any horse can get, so Arkle cannot have been better

Numbers are never in short supply when the official handicappers gather to pass judgment on a racing season and yesterday's event to assess and celebrate the 2009-10 jumps season was no different. If it were possible to drown in figures, they would have been handing out snorkels at the door.

Yet one number was conspicuously absent. This was supposed to be the moment when Phil Smith, the BHA's senior handicapper, revealed the result of his attempt to put a figure on Arkle, the chaser whose mid-60s shadow still extends to the present day. After many hours poring over yellowing form books and long-forgotten copies of the Racing Calendar, though, Smith has decided that the task is hopeless.

It can take a brave man to admit defeat and, while a "best guess" rating for the three-time Gold Cup winner would have been interesting, it seems that the disjointed nature of National Hunt racing at the time made even this impossible.

"There was no central handicapping," Smith said yesterday. "There were lots of different people involved and they would say that Horse A should get so many pounds from Horse B one week, and then change their minds completely the next week, even when there hadn't been any racing in between."

Nonetheless, while he could not uncover a framework on which to construct an opinion, Smith did offer a few clues yesterday to the way that his inquiries were heading at the time.

He believes that Mill House, Arkle's contemporary and, initially, his principal rival, was of similar merit to Denman, who is now rated at 182. He also concedes that there must be a biological limit on the maximum rating that a racehorse can achieve, in the same way that it is inconceivable that a human could run 100m in under five seconds.

Of course, this is all leading directly towards the old argument about the one semi-official rating against Arkle's name, which is the rating of 212 awarded by Timeform when he was at his peak.

Arkle will have been dead for 40 years next Monday and did not have an ego to be flattered or deflated in any case. The question of whether that rating is trustworthy is thus somewhat academic, but not entirely so, because every subsequent champion has been tested against it and found wanting. Horses like Best Mate, Desert Orchid and now even Kauto Star appear in the record books as relative second-raters because, for all their talent and achievements, Arkle could have given most of them two stone and a beating – in Timeform's opinion, at least.

A personal view is that a biological limit on racing ability lies around the 200 mark, and that Kauto Star's rating of 190 could well have been higher if he had ever contested a handicap. It seems reasonable to think that he is as good – not better, but as good – as any chaser the sport has seen. Both he and Arkle, in other words, are as close to the limit of brilliance as any horse is likely to get, and placing one ahead of the other is shaving hairs.

Of course, it may be that Timeform can justify their 212 rating using data in their huge archives (and, for that matter, the 210 given to Flyingbolt, his contemporary and stablemate, which put the pair of them 19lb clear of every other chaser in history). But if Smith can't stand up a figure with any confidence, it would be fascinating to know how Timeform can.

This is not a criticism of Timeform in general, as its race-readers and commentators have served the sport with distinction for many years.

But, given the totemic status of that 212, it would be good to know who came up with it and how, if only to address the rumour that Phil Bull, Timeform's founder, had so little interest in jump racing that he used to give the job of rating jumpers to the raw recruits as practice before they were let loose on "proper" racing. Otherwise, Kauto Star may not be the last great chaser who does not get quite as much credit as he deserves.
Report sageform January 24, 2024 9:17 PM GMT
Arkle was very good of course but the very fact that he was 2 stone ahead of the rest makes you wonder how the rest would cope against the top 4 in the Gold Cup this year. Mill House at his very best was at least 10lb behind but the other chasers of the time were 2 stone and more. I know he was a narrowly beaten third in the Massey Ferguson but that was 2.5 miles and Arkle was much better over 3+. With the steady improvement in human athletes due to scientific monitoring and enhanced training, it would be surprising if at least some of that has not been applied to horses. Very few 1960s trainers could get a horse to its peak without a couple of runs in races but now it is routine.
Report paulo47 January 25, 2024 9:54 AM GMT
Excellent posts , and yes understand Greg Wood's final comment .Tiger , Arkle did give two stone 5lbs to a Gold Cup winner in What A Myth , when that horse as a 9yo was arguably in his prime , rather than when it won the GC . But as Elise says , it would be hard for racing to be the only sport where overall standards havent improved , feed , medical treatment , exercise regimes , but you can only compare against the contemporary of the time to get greatness ratings.
Report monarch January 25, 2024 10:04 AM GMT
Limestone Lad, as previously mentioned, won 35. 29 over hurdles, 4 chases, and 2 bumpers. Over 60 career runs, including 12 in one season, and the old boy is still alive and kicking at the ripe old age of 32. Picture of him on Twatter yesterday. Give me a horse like him over the current bunch of lightly campaigned steeds any day.
Report differentdrum January 25, 2024 11:14 AM GMT
Just because all the outside factors have improved it doesn't mean the horse itself has improved. I suspect it's the total opposite, and we now have as weak a breed as we have ever had. Why do you think that the best horses are basically wrapped up in cotton wool? Clearly trainers are worried that a harder campaign would finish them. Kauto Star had one run in a limited handicap. Why was that? Denman took in a handicap once a year. Everyone made such a big thing about that, but Arkle ran in major handicapd within a couple of weeks. If the latter day heroes had the same preparation as Arkle there would be nothing left standing in terms of opposition on Gold Cup day. Horses in those days used to run on ground that would now be considered unraceable with very little messing around missing targets because of the ground. It's much easier to justify Arkle's rating than the modern day horses who spent careers just beating inferior rivals in condition races. Most people will know that Arkle's ability led to the creation of two handicaps, one with, and one without. The horses running off bottom weight would be top weights in the 'normal' handicaps.
Report mrcombustible January 25, 2024 11:27 AM GMT
Totally agree with you DD. The breed is weaker NH and Flat
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