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Ramruma
17 Sep 23 13:00
Joined:
Date Joined: 11 Dec 02
| Topic/replies: 16,019 | Blogger: Ramruma's blog
Down to the final five.

See https://www.racingpost.com/news/features/series/denman-dessie-frankel-kauto-or-rummy-its-time-to-vote-now-to-crown-the-peoples-champion-aWBGU4q9cdzG/

Red Rum: the working-class hero who never knew when to quit
Kauto Star: the rock 'n' roll chaser who kept bouncing back to remind the doubters who was king
Frankel: greatness not in question - but doing it for Sir Henry made it so much more poignant
Desert Orchid: so much more than just an astonishing racehorse - he became part of the family too
Denman: they called him The Tank for good reason - and he pushed the boundaries of what we thought possible


Does no-one else think one of those horses does not belong in this august company? Seriously, WTF is Denman doing alongside the other four? In what way has Denman "pushed the boundaries of what we thought possible"?

Kauto Star, Red Rum and Desert Orchid won multiple iconic races. Red Rum and Desert Orchid transcended the sport and would appear on the front pages of national newspapers, open fetes and turn on the Christmas lights. Frankel was arguably the best Flat horse ever.

And Denman? What has he done that is so remarkable? A Gold Cup winner carrying "a saddle full of lead" in handicaps, apparently. Denman voters must be too young to remember this used to be standard fare. The most Denman carried was 11st 12lbs to win two Hennessy's. Desert Orchid won the Irish Grand National with 12st and the Racing Post Chase toting 12st 3lbs.

You can only imagine Harry Findlay hired a team of top tech nerds to hack the online voting for the object of his heart's desire.
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Report cacique September 17, 2023 1:41 PM BST
Who would you have had?
I don't think Frankel should be in it!!


Arkle defo; Sea Pigeon possibly; Tiger Roll maybe
Report Hayden September 17, 2023 1:46 PM BST
If it's just people's champion then Red Rum & Desert Orhid would easily be 1st & 2nd in that order.

95% of the people would not have heard of the other three supposed contenders.



Have a good day all  Happy
Report acey deucy September 17, 2023 1:50 PM BST
Red Rum all Day long ffs...Scumbags the lot of ye.Angry
Report Hayden September 17, 2023 1:50 PM BST
In all fairness though it does depend on how you interpret the term " people "

Is it the public , maybe racing post voters or whatever else , knowing this would define the voting.
Report Ramruma September 17, 2023 1:52 PM BST
Outstanding racehorses: Frankel, Desert Orchid, Kauto Star.
Famous outside racing: Red Rum, Desert Orchid.

So the winner by a Venn diagram ought to be Desert Orchid.
Report comingupthehill September 17, 2023 2:02 PM BST
50% of population under 40,have no knowledge of red rum.

There’s 2 groups,racing post ,racing peoples view.

Average person,most of whom,don’t even know that there’s a newspaper called the racing post.let alone red rum,

Tiger roll would probably win a general public vote
Report Ramruma September 17, 2023 2:03 PM BST
These surveys are very much of their time. Up to 20 or 30 years ago, you could probably have added Nijinsky to the short list of horses known to the general public. These days even hardcore racing fans would need to check that he won the triple crown.

And after Frankel's 2,000 Guineas, there were a few coffin-dodgers trying to remind us Tudor Minstrel had similarly won by half the track.
Report comingupthehill September 17, 2023 2:07 PM BST
On pure best results
Al boom photo technically has the best record.
Report sparrow September 17, 2023 2:08 PM BST
Surprised at you using such a term as "coffin dodgers",  Ramruma.
Report screaming from beneaththewaves September 17, 2023 3:56 PM BST
I thought that the whole point of a 'people's champion' is that it's someone who you desperately want to see land the big one, but they always just miss out, whether because of circumstances or their own flaws.

On that basis, it's Crisp first, the rest nowhere. I defy anyone to watch a replay of the 1973 National and not will Crisp to hang on this time, just this once.
Report Ramruma September 17, 2023 5:06 PM BST
Sorry, sparrow. These days it is self-deprecating.
Report Cider September 17, 2023 5:19 PM BST
Just from a logic perspective, you would need to look at the opposition that Denman defeated to reach the final round, rather than the oppo in the final round. I have no idea, perhaps he had some soft heats.
Report sparrow September 17, 2023 5:23 PM BST
No worries, ramruma.
Report Cider September 17, 2023 5:23 PM BST
Presumably they framed it so the big beasts couldn't knock each other out.
Report impossible123 September 17, 2023 5:43 PM BST
Is this similar to "who was the best Epsom Derby winner" organised by bookies in the late 70's? The winner then was Storm Bird; Shergar was in everyone's mind and extremely popular at that time. As such, the only winner was the bookies.

Any betting? I hope not. Otherwise, one'd have a better chance of picking the winner of a virtual race,
Report sparrow September 17, 2023 5:53 PM BST
impossible123 17 Sep 23 17:43 
Is this similar to "who was the best Epsom Derby winner" organised by bookies in the late 70's? The winner then was Storm Bird



Do you mean Sea Bird?
Report Cider September 17, 2023 5:59 PM BST
Wonder who knocked Best Mate out.
Report impossible123 September 17, 2023 6:06 PM BST
Apology 'sparrow', it was Sea Bird. I lost £30 in that bookies' stitched-up. It was a lot of money then; I was also a student.
Report sparrow September 17, 2023 6:08 PM BST
Sea Bird was the best I ever saw back in 1965.
Report cacique September 17, 2023 6:10 PM BST
Who was the best winner of the Derby by decade since the 60's? and then do a vote off....  please forgive my poor editing/formating


50's    Crepello           
        Golden Horn       
10's    Golden horn           
            Sea the Stars   
00's    Sea the Stars           
        Sea the Stars       
80's    Shergar           
                ?? Sea the stars
90's    Generous           
        Nijinsky       
70's    Nijinsky           
            Nijinsky   
60's    Sir Ivor           
        Sir Ivor       
20's    Adayar
Report sparrow September 17, 2023 6:22 PM BST
Sea Bird would have beaten Sir Ivor on the bridle.

In their book A Century of Champions, John Randall and Tony Morris rated Sea-Bird the greatest racehorse of the 20th century, one pound ahead of Secretariat and two pounds ahead of Ribot and Brigadier Gerard.
Report strontium September 17, 2023 9:29 PM BST
Kauto for me, by a nose over Dessie.

Like some others, I'm surprised Arkle isn't in the final five, but he was in the same "semi" as Red Rum.

It does interest me, but does not surprise me, that four of the five are staying chasers. Top hurdlers and two mile chasers get a lot of hype when they're around, but they don't gnaw at the heart in the same way the great stayers do. However, I'm wondering if Frankel might sneak the win, because the four others split the jumps-fan vote.

Agreeing with the OP, Denman is the weak link of the five - but his Gold Cup and his first Hennessey were awesome performances. It's a cliche to say a horse had them beaten a mile out - that day at Newbury, he did. They are both races I can watch again and again.
Report Fashion Fever September 17, 2023 9:50 PM BST
remember HF saying lester piggot assured him that denmark was better than arkle

was lester was the third bottle of something free no doubt
Report jimnast September 18, 2023 8:10 AM BST
The horse that put up the best performance on derby day is Troy
Report jimnast September 18, 2023 8:15 AM BST
Storm bird was the horse who had his tail hacked by some lunatic
Report jimnast September 18, 2023 8:18 AM BST
I see there’s a lunatic earlier on this thread however I refuse to get drawn into debates regarding frankel as it’s pointless as I know I’m right Devil
Report Hayden September 18, 2023 12:30 PM BST
Think we should all take three steps back on this topic and firstly answer.......

What does the term " People's champion " mean to you.


Then we may get somewhere and sing from the same hymn sheet  Happy
Report Cardinal Scott September 18, 2023 1:41 PM BST
It's a load of populist horse$hit

FACT is Persian Punch was more beloved than Frankel, Kauto Star and Denman and its a lie to suggest otherwise. I would not throw in Desert Orchid and Red Rum as clearly they were the 2 most beloved nags of last 50 years and it ain't even close.  Horse Racing was not a minority sport when those 2 were at it.
Report nez September 23, 2023 12:42 PM BST
NH fans have 4 to choose from and flat fans have just one so the winner is.......
Report impossible123 September 23, 2023 6:01 PM BST
No Sea Bird, Shergar or Dancing Brave? A malformed and misinformed nomination, and only a whipper-snapper could be responsible for.
Report strontium September 23, 2023 8:45 PM BST
They were knocked out in earlier rounds. Appears to have been an open draw, so some heats had great horses against each other. E.g. Arkle and Shergar were in the same first round heat.
Report impossible123 September 23, 2023 9:22 PM BST
That's a shame. I hope there's no book for this. I think no Sea Bird is absurd.
Report Hayden September 23, 2023 9:34 PM BST
Hayden
17 Sep 23 13:50
Joined: 15 Jan 02
| Topic/replies: 11,143 | Blogger: Hayden's blog
In all fairness though it does depend on how you interpret the term " people "
Is it the public , maybe racing post voters or whatever else , knowing this would define the voting.


That's the million dollar question , are we voting for the same reason , i think maybe not.
Report Hayden September 23, 2023 9:45 PM BST
If the people's champion = the household general public then it's an age dependant 3 horse race , Red Rum , Tiger Roll and Desert Orchid.

If people's champion = the racing fraternity then the above three would be any price and the likes of Kauto Star , Arkle , Nijinsky and many others would be a popular vote.

Is this one of those daft voting competitions like SPOTY when personality has absolutely nothing to do with the winner , so effectively the competition's name title is incorrect.

I don't know the answer , just curious  Happy
Report strontium September 23, 2023 9:59 PM BST
Yes, seems like horse SPOTY to me.

Must dispute that Dessie would be "any price" among the horse fraternity though. Surely one of the very greatest (albeit not Arkle)?
Report Hayden September 23, 2023 10:02 PM BST
Yes sorry strontium was trying to seperate the National heroes from the bread and butter to make a point , wouldn't be any price but would still be my 3rd choice behind Red Rum & Tiger Roll depending on age if it were a household name competition.
Report strontium September 23, 2023 10:09 PM BST
Undestood Hayden. I think it probably depends on your age though - Deseie was a  integral part of Christmas for me when I was a teenager. "The benign grey ghost of Christmas past" as Alistair Down called him. But I get your point absolutely.
Report Pilsudski September 24, 2023 11:49 AM BST
What a complete waste of time.Have the RP got nothing better to do ?
Report Pilsudski September 24, 2023 11:51 AM BST
FF……Denmark ??
Report strontium October 14, 2023 6:22 PM BST
NH horses get 72% of the vote... so Frankel wins.
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