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cacique
09 Sep 23 15:46
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Date Joined: 21 Oct 07
| Topic/replies: 1,208 | Blogger: cacique's blog
Is he just not a Group 1 horse?

Or should they change jockey/trainer/tactics?
Pause Switch to Standard View King of Steel - Where now?
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Report truehoncho September 9, 2023 3:49 PM BST
He's a big horse and I think he'll get his G1 next year. I don't rate the jockey but I don't think he could have done much more.
Report in hell September 9, 2023 3:53 PM BST
Moore had his horse in a perfect place
Report BULLET TOOTH TONY September 9, 2023 3:57 PM BST
Never know why he isn’t ridden more forward over 10f
Report cacique September 9, 2023 3:58 PM BST
Stott is very poor.

But big horse or not, not winning a G1 at 3 isn't really something you can market for his stud career!! if he has one.

Maybe they should have waited for the ledger. Either way, bad race planning by the trainer/owner and the jockey held him up giving the AOB's the advantage up front.
Report penzance September 9, 2023 4:04 PM BST
Travelled into the race well enough,didn't seem to quicken.
Stott did nothing wrong.
Report MJK September 9, 2023 4:04 PM BST
Giving the winner those lengths over 10f was head scratching
Report nineteen points September 9, 2023 4:05 PM BST
a bit harsh these comments.thought he ran well for the distance.very fast pace set which he couldnt go.ran on well. hey ho,its all about opinions and i respect all.
Report MJK September 9, 2023 4:06 PM BST
Couldn't go the pace? He has taken a few pulls during the race.
Report Layboy September 9, 2023 4:57 PM BST
You probably think all these Group 1 races are genuine!LaughLaughLaugh The Irish equivalent of the Dubai Carnival!
Report Dr Crippen September 9, 2023 5:44 PM BST
Or should they change jockey/trainer/tactics?

Unless he improves, they'll need to find a weaker race than that if they want to win a G1.

50 grand for that.
134 grand last time.

They not doing to bad. Should win another G2.
Report cacique September 9, 2023 7:43 PM BST
Most of the Group 1 races are not genuine G1!! we are not kidding ourselves on that score. (the sprint race at Haydock shows that there is a group 1 race for all the ponies running, one for everyone in the audience as Gaybo used to say)


But if i was a multimillionaire owner, my prime objective would not be winning 50k place money in Leopardstown.

It would be winning the classics, King George and the Arc. period.
Report truehoncho September 9, 2023 7:50 PM BST
I don't think he is going to be a big draw at stud. He's too big and didn't do enough at 2 let alone 3. If he stays in training (which he clearly should do)and improves he might end up very, very good which may change his prospects somewhat.
Report CagliariG September 9, 2023 7:54 PM BST
1m 6f worth a try imo, a turning track is never going to suit so 12F with a long straight probably not discounted either?

If passing his physical stature to progeny could be a cracking NH stallion?
Report Dr Crippen September 9, 2023 8:31 PM BST
It would be winning the classics, King George and the Arc. period.

Just like that!
Report G Hall September 10, 2023 6:07 PM BST
The champion was a pretty average renewal which Auguste Rodin struggled to win.

King of Steel they will probably end up winning a Group 2 or 3, only chance of a Group 1 in my opinion is in a St Leger or a Hroup 1 in France or Germany next year.

I think he can make a decent NH stallion.
Report MJK September 10, 2023 6:27 PM BST
The RTE crew were pretty scathing of Stott and Doyle today reviewing the race. Still think myself King Of Steel is better than this and was just the victim of a very poor ride.
Report Brian September 10, 2023 6:35 PM BST
Not 100% sure he will stay the St Leger distance but the Doncaster straight will be better for him than Leopardstown.
Report 1st time poster September 10, 2023 6:56 PM BST
WTF would they run in st leger if they think it didnt stay in KG,surely they,d run in THE ARC,thats besides ST leger been a week away
Report Dr Crippen September 10, 2023 7:36 PM BST
RP ratings for the Epsom race has them.

1st AR - 124
2nd KOS - 122

And for yesterday's race.

1st AR - 125
4th KOS - 123
Report impossible123 September 10, 2023 7:53 PM BST
Team AMO got it wrong; Team Coolmore got it spot on.

I think the same could apply to the defeat of Feed The Flame at Longchamp today; his pilot sat too far back on an initial steady pace; the winner tracked the pacesetter of Feed The Flame in 2nd place, and had 1st run and distance on him. The only consolation is today was not The ARC.

I believe Treve "lost" an ARc to Golden Horn winning the Prix Vermeille by a big margin just 3 weeks earlier.
Report EastLower Gooner September 10, 2023 9:33 PM BST
Hong Kong Vase I’m and book Zac Purton straight away.

That donkey Mogul won it without breaking a sweat so I’m sure KOS would do well.
Report tomo1984 September 10, 2023 10:05 PM BST
Big horse, plenty of stamina on dam's side of ped.

Seems nailed on as an NH stallion if he doesn't get a proper crack at a flat gig.

But seems a strange horse to be crabbing to be honest?

Never runs a bad race (bar the RP), 2nd in the Derby, 3rd in the KG, RA winner in a canter and now Irish Champs 3rd.

And surely would love a proper bit of back end ease in the ground looking at him.  I suspect we see him back at Ascot in October.

No reason why he should not make a monstrous 4yo if they can keep him sound as well.
Report tomo1984 September 10, 2023 10:06 PM BST
*Irish Champs 4th in fact.
Report EastLower Gooner September 11, 2023 9:19 AM BST
The Canadian International will be 10f from this year onwards.

So if they want an easy ‘do over’ at the trip then that’s it.
Report MJK September 11, 2023 11:45 AM BST
Looks like the owner also believes the ride gave the horse no chance
Report formoftheace September 11, 2023 11:53 AM BST
Big horse = big galloping track ffs
Report impossible123 September 11, 2023 12:11 PM BST
It was a brainless ride from Stott and Doyle despite the evidence of riding shortgun by AOB.
Report penzance September 11, 2023 12:13 PM BST
I like King Of Steel as a horse myself.Fact is though every time
this has been in a GP1 it's been found out.The 3 that beat him
are all GP1 wnrs.Nashwa was further back than he was.
Report MJK September 11, 2023 12:56 PM BST
Yeah but it was 10f, and King Of Steel always looks as though he needs at least 1M4F so holding it as far back as he did was madness imop.
Report CagliariG September 11, 2023 1:03 PM BST
The owner must be as blinkered as the jockey bashers on here who lack the ability for post race analysis. Saying KOS should have made the running because it was 10F is as simplistic as slating the jockey who was given no help by the horse in any case.

Nobody has mentioned how fast the race was run i.e nearly 3 seconds faster than standard, Stott made his effort 3F out which given the pace was a sensible decision to give the horse time to make ground, however the horse did not look balanced and that imo was nothing to do with the jockey, he is just big and was awkward, possible the pace being set.

He is never going to win at 10F in a race run at such fractions and to be beaten only a length is a far better run than anyone seems to be giving him credit for, ditto Nashwa, both faster than standard.
Report truehoncho September 11, 2023 1:14 PM BST
I'm not sure giving horses of AR's ability 10 lengths any point in  a race is too clever and he should have stayed closer. James Doyle and Sea Of Class all over again.
Report CagliariG September 11, 2023 1:18 PM BST
Hardly that honcho imo, given the fractions, had he used up energy early he would likely have been beaten further?
Report truehoncho September 11, 2023 1:21 PM BST
No, that's just not right. He was finishing harder than anything so why would you assume if he got a few lengths closer he wouldn't have won. It doesn't make sense.
Report Vubiant September 11, 2023 1:31 PM BST
Form shows AR 3, KOS 0. any distance , any tactics , any ground.
Report impossible123 September 11, 2023 1:33 PM BST
Typical 'CagliaiG',...always moving the goal-post to try and "support" his line of argument. If Dettori had done what Stott and Doyle did in the Juddmonte and allowed Moore to dictate the pace on Paddington at the front Mostahdaf would not have won.

I backed Nashwa for £2 at 10 here. I was not annoyed she did not win. But, at least place/position the horse to give it a better chance; it was a Gp 1 race, and jockeys would need to wise up professionally in this instance.

The intent of AOB was evident at the outset. Yet, two "professional" jockeys were caught napping big time.
Report nineteen points September 11, 2023 1:38 PM BST
alflalia ran fastest of all last 2 furlong but the race was over for him and kos.aob had 3 arrows at the board and had any of his others won then moore would be getting it for picking wrong one.
Report CagliariG September 11, 2023 1:46 PM BST
So anything contradictory is unacceptable to you impossible? Where do you suggest I "moved the goalposts" as opposed to giving an alternative view to how some others opined?

We could get into the physiological reasons but imo that would fly over your head!!
Report impossible123 September 11, 2023 2:10 PM BST
What did Dettori do in the Juddmonte (10f) to negate Moore and Paddington, a prolific winner at 8f? Mostahdaf won over 12f, and stayed 10f very well.

Ask any senior jockey whether Stott and Doyle had done the right thing positioned so far back despite AOB running a pacesetter, a one-time Derby fav who finished 7th in The ARC on soft going. The game plan of AOB was so blatantly obvious prior to and at the outset yet Stott and Doyle had not seemed to have cottoned.

There was only 1 length between the 1st 4 home. I'd question the rides of the 3rd and 4th (tracking way behind) if I was sufficiently lucky to be the owner of either.

To be a contrarian is all well and good, But, trying to support Stott and Doyle on their riding in the Irish Champion Stakes is evidently misjudged and flawed, esp Stott.
Report CagliariG September 11, 2023 2:15 PM BST
Now who is moving the goalposts impossible, talking about races that have nothing to do with Saturday. That apart you seem to think you know better than the jockeys so maybe you should become a coach or consultant?
Report 1st time poster September 11, 2023 2:18 PM BST
AR 3 KOS o
obviously you dont count the KG
Report DrGordons September 11, 2023 2:31 PM BST
Just watched it  a couple of times again and contrary to my initial thoughts that Stott gave KOS too much to do, I don't recon he did much wrong. He made a good forward move just under 5f out and was in touch turning in. He just didn't seem to have the pace to improve enough. Think Holly could have made her move earlier. But one length covering first four shows it wasn't a fiasco.
Report truehoncho September 11, 2023 2:37 PM BST
He's obviously let them go at 6/7 furlongs out. In hindsight e should have stayed closer, that's pretty clear really.
Report impossible123 September 11, 2023 4:01 PM BST
Doyle should have been closer - that's without a doubt. For Stott to be 4 lengths behind the winner at 1/2-way, and 6 behind Luxembourg (2nd) was inexcusable given King Of Steel led the winner at Epsom. King Of Steel made up ground between 3f and 2f marker to be within 2 lengths of the winner. The energy spent getting there was the nemesis for him, and allowing Nashwa to pass him.

Anyway, it's all academic, but AOB played a blinder.
Report Dr Crippen September 11, 2023 5:49 PM BST
KOS led 2 out in the Derby and was caught by AR.
He came from behind on Saturday and couldn't catch AR.
One day he goes too early, and the next he comes to late.

While the jockey on AR can't do anything wrong on his, whether he comes from behind or goes for home early, and the horse keeps winning.

Dare I say Auguste Rodin is a better horse than King Of Steel?
Report penzance September 11, 2023 6:17 PM BST
Started out @ David Loughnane's yard.
What was the reason it went to Varian,if any?
cheers.
Report liberator of the oppressed September 11, 2023 6:39 PM BST
Young Mitchell or Egan both potentially world class Varian is a young Aidan.
Report formoftheace September 11, 2023 6:53 PM BST
Ffs !
Report roadrunner46 September 13, 2023 10:55 PM BST
Good move by the owner to get rid of the jockey, hopeless ride in Ireland, wouldn’t complain from a punting perspective because I liked the winner for the race, useless ride, looked all at sea from beginning to the end of the race
Report sageform September 14, 2023 8:26 AM BST
AOB is 54, Roger Varian is 44. Younger yes, but a "young AOB" suggests he is just setting out on his career. Including his time as assistant to Michael Jarvis, he has 20 years experience as a trainer. He is very good and has some big owners but there is no evidence that he is going to make a big leap forward in the next few years.
Report nineteen points September 14, 2023 9:20 AM BST
it depends on which way press lean for some things

aob hailed a genius for getting AR to win 2 group 1s after 2 flops.rightly so imo.

spin the coin if he wasnt media darling and they would be asking how come AR flopped like that for no obvious reason
Report cacique October 21, 2023 3:52 PM BST
change of jockey and tactics did the trick
Report impossible123 October 21, 2023 4:00 PM BST
Understanding the horse, jockeyship and experience got the horse home despite hating the ground. Well done King Of Steel and Dettori!
Report GEORGE.B October 21, 2023 9:59 PM BST
A great result for Coolmore - how much will Wootton Bassett's stud fee go up by?
Report brandyontherocks October 22, 2023 9:09 AM BST
Someone on this thread slated Stott for being too far back at Leopardstown, but congratulates Frankie for his ride yesterday even though he had him plum last.
Report Cider October 22, 2023 11:40 AM BST
completely different tracks, far more 'doable' to win from the rear on the round course at Ascot (pace depending as always). but the Coolmore axis also controlled Leopardstown, ensuring Rodin had the run of the race.
Report acey deucy October 22, 2023 12:37 PM BST
Where should he go next?...Nowhere till next Season if the Trainer has any sense.The Horse had one hell of a tough Race Yesterday and he wont forget that in a hurry.
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