Priemerisation

tbh I really do not understand what problem premierisation is intended to solve, let alone whether it is a real problem in the first place or if the solution will work.

It is meant to solve' Punter Time' between races - and avoid the likes of ITV - and more Directly RTV - going to Nemarket just a few minutes before the likes of the July Cup at Newmarket  - and then shooting straight off to York, just a few minutes after the July Cup, for the John Smith's Cup ... and the supporting quality races - such as the Bunbury Cup, on those same cards.

Presumably - the Time Gaps between such races will be a little larger than as of now.

The impact of those Major races has been massively diluted by them being encased in - 'a race every 5 minutes' Saturday afternoon, current, schedule.

It’s to help online bookmakers turn over rather than asking them to lay more than what they do now the fact all those racegoers who for many years have had there trips to these smaller tracks (thirsk big crowd today)will just pack in going  along with race course closures doesn’t seem to bother the bha or the racing post who I wrote a letter to on this matter however wasn’t published.

The gravy train is worse than ever and online bookmakers are running uk horse racing

It seems to difficult for the bha to have good racing on a Sunday other than 1000 guineas day

If it’s about rtv split screening,where does the Irish racing fall into this.

Why not just let the lesser meetings keep their time slots,but just agree no races will be aired between 2-4pm.

Still got the Irish problem.

I actually think,they ve no idea what they re doing,but they just try and copy football.
So like no live tv game allowed 3pm,they’re just copying same idea.

There seems no logic to the 2-4 vacuum.

If I was ceo of thirsk,I’d have a 200k hcp at 1.59pm and another one at 4.01pm.

But because they’re either jockey club or arena owned,they have to take instructions from above.

Less meetings on a Saturday is the only solution,but that’s another problem.

But still back to the opening post,what happens if a track outgrows its 2nd tier slot,and another track fails in providing premier racing,
There’s no promotion and relegation .

Thirsk.constantly has big fields at every meeting,but never gets air time,other tracks just seem lucky.

all polarised brought in to focus by ridiculous decision to move JULY CUP to sat, when its magnet cup day,was already a busy in past before newmarket changed ,chester/ascot mile  were on and a big race in ire,plenty of jocks used to give YORK the swerve even before newmarket moved july cxup

From the BHA point of view there is no problem. They have a narrow view of what horse racing should be and a self interested strategy to implement it. This isn't good for all sorts of reasons and risks owners of lower grade horses leaving the sport.

Gold cup day in France today, Sunday.

Another dud idea from an organisation seemingly bereft of any idea about horse racing.

If they all resigned tomorrow morning nobody in the sport would miss them except, perhaps, certain journalists who would not know which topics they should be covering!

I think it’s a sort of good idea,but just a bit clumsy and illogical.

I get what they’re trying to do,but given Irish racing not covered,and Irish racing and British racing now effectively one product,cos of coolmore and Mullins.

But a 2 hour window seems pointless,

It’s the usual fudge of trying to please everyone and offend no one.

But like the footy premier league,the top tier will just pull further away,

If a grade A track runs a  7 race hcp at 2.05,class 2/3.20k winner
Then a grade B track runs a 16 runner hcp 1.55 class 2/3 30k to winner.

Because the 7 runner race gets more coverage it’s bound to be seen as a better race,so there’s no incentive on the grade A tracks to improve,and no incentive on the grade B track to improve,because they ll always be division 2.

Certain meetings,tracks,have to be allowed to get an uplift to the 2-4pm slot and others should be demoted.

Unless the big slots are shared around a bit,so the div 2 tracks get their big day,but then the big track on that day have put on a weak card,should be kicked off that days rosta.

But I think,big tracks have too much clout ,so that won’t happen.

But better to make a decision on something rather than no decision.

If this goes ahead horse racing will end up a non Spector sport in the main ,when these who are making the decisions and when some tracks have gone ,and the racegoers have found other things to do the question will be asked where did it all go wrong.

Moonlight bay another dud idea is absolutely correct

Regarding the July cup the place was rammed when it was run on a Thursday along with the bunbury cup ,the bunbury cup is now just a handicap ran on a Saturday

Its not a good idea, its silly elitism. They want to attract sponsorship, more prize money and better horses for the terrestrial TV audience. They think this will stop people selling the 100 rated horses abroad and attract new people into racing a bit like they think premier football attracts people to football. It won't work, but it will increase the cost of a 'Saturday' horse at the sales. In turn this risks diminishing the value of lower grade horses and reducing interest in low grade racing. In fact it sends a clear signal that low grade racing isn't worth watching. It is utter madness.

Honcho I’ve spoke to many these last few weeks on course and the worlds utter madness cropped up in every conversation.

I think everyone accepts that on a Saturday,the 4th,5th 6th meeting is lower grade and less relevant.
People still go,

Thirsk most Saturdays,always has big fields,but starting at 10am or 4pm rams down the throat of all involved,that this meeting is not important.

Why not just let them run as normal,but racing tv,the shops,don’t cover it,just have betting and result.that’s how it used to be,

Don’t free up the events,free up the coverage.

Its because anyone who is involved in racing, regular race goers, owners, trainers etc, understand the sport and those making the decisions don't. All they are trying to do is prop up the very top end of the game (cronyism). Far too many at the top are only interested in money and have some exaggerated opinion of their own importance. Most of them only go to the likes of York, Ascot, Newmarket etc and have no real interest in any sort of horse racing that doesn't involve champagne or top hats. In particular many of those parasites in the Jockey Club rooms contribute nothing to the sport and look down on those of us who spend our hard earned money subsidising their over privileged existence.

How I wished you were on the board of the bha comingupthehill that idea was discussed where I was today.

Unfortunately far to sensible to actually happen

Worcester get a huge crowd derby day,Leicester on ladies day,thirsk yesterday and stewards cup Saturday,the Ripon July Saturday,ime sure there are others but the crowd will be hardly anyone at 10 am and very few at 4 pm

I forgot Cartmel to huge Saturdays in the summer how can that survive without that revenue the village itself reaps the rewards on those fixtures.


And all to help the online bookmakers

There is a chance it could backfire on them. Many horses (particularly the better handicappers) may well dodge these meetings as the races may prove very competitive and look for easier targets.

On the bank holidays 20/30 years ago before internet,better media,loads of meetings never got covered,
Even max payout on these meetings was less than the covered meetings.

If it’s the contractual agreements,then change the contract,

Let’s face it,if a grade 1 at ascot is followed by a big hcp at Newmarket,no one’s bothered about the race from ripon in between anyway,so why cover it.

Madness that they breakaway from the derby with 2 furlongs left,cos they’re under orders at Sligo.

Promote the sport 2-4 if that’s what they think it needs,just promote 6-8 races in this slot,ignore the rest.

But why move the whole card by 6 hours.

There’d be more watching the 3.05 from Redcar on their phones,than the 10.05 from Redcar,

I'm not sure you are right there comingupthehill. I think there are plenty of people that would be interested in the Ripon race. The small handicaps are an intrinsic part of the sport and trying separate them so explicitly from the so called big meetings is just plain wrong.

They can still follow the race,but it just won’t be given equal billing between 2-4,

That’s better than the 9.40am from Beverley.

Those at Beverley have voted with their feet anyway,so why make them go at 9am.

It’s about the half interested majority,not the keen follower.


I still can’t get my head round why they need no other racing,2-4.

Are people running out of itv to watch the bath stakes.

It just looks like,racingtv dosent like split screens,let’s move the card.

Just don’t split screen,show the better race if theirs a clash,

They want to provide a captive audience for racing they deem to be 'premiership' quality and don't want it diluted by other racing. This will generate increased prize money which in turn will give the top owners incentive to keep their 100 rated horses and not sell them abroad. They see this exodus of top horses as a danger to the perceived quality of British racing. That's why they are doing it and that's why they are not going to allow any other racing during this period.

I still can’t see what they’re trying to do.

It’s basically the Dave Nevison solution.

They’re going to move 4 fixtures to bad times,so Dave nevison can talk a bit longer about each runner 2-4.

Itv don’t mention the other meetings,don’t even give you the results,

So who or what is going to fill in the gaps between races 2-4.

Basically Dave nevison.and they ll still cut him short cos the 3.05 from navan is off.

True,  a captive audience,where.

Itv don’t cover these races,so they ve captured them anyway,

No one says ,oh **** I ll miss the derby cos the cartmel selling plate has 2miles left.

If they just want less going on,that’s fine,probably ok,

But just let these race quietly run in the background,no coverage,better than 9.30 surely.

The media are basically saying we can’t promote the racing because we’re too busy promoting the racing.

Can’t they just use their nous and be selective.

Its about getting decent fields in higher rated races. They want to prevent alternatives for the horses on a Saturday (because that's when big owners want their horses to run) and ensure that everybody who wants to watch or bet on races between 2 and 4 on a Saturday focus on these races. That's it, nothing else. They don't care about the gaps if there are any.

truehoncho - re: your last post, and earlier one - relating to bigger fields and 100+ Rated Horses.

You are NOT going to get any 100+ rated Horses running at the likes of Thirsk, yesterday (instead of Premiership Newmarket/Ascot/Newbury/Goodwood etc - because the Thirsk Race Conditions do not Allow them to run there.

So that idea is a NON-Runner.

Onlooker, that is exactly what is happening. Its not opinion its the BHAs strategy.

But they won’t run 2-4 if the thirsk race is now 11.45 instead of 3.15.

They’re not talking about less racing,just moving racing,that’s why it dosent seem to stack up.

Everyone thinks there’s too much racing,but they’re not proposing less racing.

You said - prevent alternatives.but the alternatives will still be there but at 10.45am

So that track just loses out and the 2-4 product dosent improve,apart from being able to talk about the next race for longer.

Thirsk sat. Best hcp. Top rated 95
Newmarket 2.40 sat bottom rated 79

Virtually same ratings race,so the Newmarket won’t improve,
The thirsk runs at 11.05 .less attendance.

No one wins,

Reading between the lines it looks like they don’t want punters betting on the 3.15 at cartmel,when the 3.25 heritage hcp is coming up.

It sort of makes sense,force the audience to concentrate on the better races,rather than being distracted at cartmel.

The industry just needs to not highlight,promote races within this time slot,
Don’t list them on the same page as the big races,
Sort of pretend these races aren’t being run,
Obviously if you search you can find them,just don’t list them along side the big sat races.

Is there not a punters panel or racegoers club anymore who can contribute to these talks it seems the bha are just going to do what they want without caring about the consequences.

There's nothing new in racing - I recall owning a runner at a midsummer Saturday meeting at Warwick that started at 11:30 and mine ran in the 12:00. There were four meetings that afternoon, Newbury (Super Sprint), Newmarket (Listed race), Ripon (standard fare) and M Rasen (Summer Plate).

Checking back now on dates and attendances, it was in 2002, and the Warwick crowd was 2,900. The same meeting had been held at normal afternoon times in 2001 and had 3,500 present. I've no memory of what prompted this experiment with an early start, but like so many 'improvements' from the racing authorities, it was quicky abandoned. In 2003, Warwick was back to an afternoon start, the crowd was back to 3,500 and there were five meetings that afternoon.

The Warwick fixture disappeared completely from 2004. There was an example of another short lived trial on offer at the 2003 fixture, a Premier Claimer, something that lasted about two years but produced the highest price for a claim in UK racing history, when Gerard Butler paid £60k (plus commission) for a horse that ran in a Premier Claimer at Pontefract.

Finally, something else on that 2003 Warwick card that you certainly don't see now, a 2M 2F maiden race.

There seems to be a big trend in the UK to force, or manipulate, the public do do what certain bodies - and government - want them to do. All very sinister.

Someone on this thread said the BHA are trying to copy football and the Premier League. Too true. Pathetic.

It was £10k to a peanut that the unity of the tracks and everyone else in the game would fracture away from the 'joint agreements' about the need to change things which the BHA so proudly spoke about after the oddly restrictive conference last year.

As soon as someone is hit, or  threatened to be hit, in the pocket all the big talk in the UK falls apart. Be it as diverse as caring for mental health, racecourse fixtures, prize money, racism, and much else that so many love spouting about but only want OTHERS to be put out over.

We are a stupid and selfish country and our horse racing is but a snapshot of so much in society.

In the end, the BHA and others will probably fudge something through that doesn't look too much different from what we have now.

Lastly, who else has spotted on the BHA website the directive that tells tracks only 6 races allowed throughout the summer months, apart from where splits are required? Sneaked that one through, haven't they?

This is what's announced on the Racing Admin site:

Please note the following important changes which have been agreed via industry wide consultation and introduced for Programme Book 2 and beyond, unless otherwise stated.

    July and August: Maximum number of programmed races 6 other than where the total prize money is £200,000 or above. Meetings allowed to divide a 7th and 8th race.

    Increased cap on races to divide from £8k in handicaps and £10k in non-handicaps, to £12k across the board.

Due to falling field sizes in 2022, the following volume reductions have been made to improve competitiveness:

    Approx. 60% of Conditions Stakes removed from PB2, with changes made to the conditions of a significant number of other such races that have been retained.

    Volume of Class 2 and 3 Handicaps reduced by approx. 18% and replaced with lower grade handicaps.

    Nursery Handicap volume reduced in line with the horse population.

You'd create a lot more flexibility in scheduling if the gaps between races at each meeting were restricted to 30 minutes maximum. That way you could start cards half an hour later in the morning, or half an hour earlier at teatime.

In fact, if you were prepared to omit one or two of the earlier/later races from satellite telly coverage, you could probably let everyone race at roughly the normal times, with some starting at, say, 12.30, and others at perhaps 3.00.

Thirty-five minute gaps are the reason I don't attend some meetings right now. The day becomes frankly tedious, and the extra half-hour is just a waste of whatever time I've got left on this planet.

The industry implemented a lunch time fixture previously and it proved a dead loss.
Secondly, where will this improved betting turnover come from , assuming this is one of the motivations of the BHA?

Major surprise for me if this nonsense gets off the drawing board.

Unfortunately leif it will get of the drawing board no sane person wants it ,however are trade paper is so weak it won’t want to rock the boat,and we all know betting turnovers would massively increase if the online firms layed more of what punters requested,I don’t mean everything all the time but just fair accommodation of what a punter asked for,again the trade paper won’t rock the boat regarding that issue.

This nonsense certainly will get off the drawing board in one form or another. It has little or nothing to do with betting or reducing racing. Its a strategy from Saville's report last year to address the loss of high class horses abroad. That's it and nothing else. That's why the objections to it (which are correct) will not mean anything. The industry (not just the BHA) has decided that British racing needs to provide more opportunities for big paydays for high rated horses. They have already culled some pattern races and the prize money will be used towards high value handicaps etc on these exclusive Saturday meetings. All other considerations are secondary.

Raceday is a day out for many families- They don't want to be at the racecourse at 11 am and be done by 1.30.
Will the smaller, independent tracks get compensated for all the lost hospitality, food and drinks etc?
Madcap idea that will reward a few and pish off many others.

I notice plumpton doesn’t race Saturdays

Many others of similar stature will disappear

Leif even if the get compensated who wants an empty racecourse other than arc in the winter

Surely the extra turnover will come from the World Pool.
Punters based abroad will still be able to bet whilst the uk based punters will be tied up in affordability checks....

BHA to reveal details on Thursday of major fixture list changes agreed at crucial board meeting


Details of the major decisions made about the 2024 fixture list at a pivotal meeting of the BHA this week are set to be revealed to the wider industry on Thursday. 

Among the potential innovations which were discussed at the crucial meeting was that of the controversial subject of premierisation, which has caused consternation among a number of the smaller independent racecourses to the extent that the possibility of legal action has been threatened unless a compromise could be found.

Officials representing courses from Newton Abbot to Musselburgh have voiced their concerns about the concept of premierisation, which aims to more clearly identify and financially reward the top level of British racing in the hope of stimulating greater engagement and betting interest and retaining equine talent.

The most controversial aspect has been the plan to 'declutter' the crucial 2pm to 4pm slot on Saturday afternoons when racing is televised on ITV, which would generally feature two 'premier' meetings and one 'core' fixture.

Other meetings which would usually take place on Saturday afternoons would instead be shifted to earlier or later slots which has raised fears of a major financial impact for the smaller courses affected.

It is understood the BHA board had a number of options to consider, including imposing a blanket approach to premierisation but also some courses volunteering to shift their meetings as part of a trial and a hybrid of the two approaches.

Earlier this week Ripon managing director James Hutchinson said they had offered a fixture at the course in April to be shifted as part of a trial of the idea and officials at Yarmouth said on Wednesday their meeting on Grand National day next year was due to start at 4pm.


YARMOUTH, ENGLAND - SEPTEMBER 14: Harry Davies riding Priscilla's Wish (R) win The At The Races App Market Movers Fillies' Handicap Stakes at Yarmouth Racecourse on September 14, 2022 in Yarmouth, England. (Photo by Alan Crowhurst/Getty Images)
Yarmouth: fixture on Grand National day set to start at 4pm
Credit: Alan Crowhurst (Getty Images)
British racing's leadership agreed on the need to formulate a long-term industry strategy at a summit last September, and the changes to next year's fixture list have been the most pressing aspect of the work done since that point. It is understood ten proposals were discussed by the BHA board on Tuesday which had been brought to them by the cross-industry commercial committee and which included details of the sometimes differing views of those involved.

After the meeting BHA chair Joe Saumarez Smith said that principles to bring "innovation and improvement" to next year's fixture list had been "debated and agreed unanimously". Some of those proposals will however need to be the subject of further talks with the likes of the Levy Board, including the need to agree where the extra funding for premier fixtures will come from.

Hutchinson told the Racing Post this week that prize-money for each premier fixture would be in excess of £200,000. It is understood that other aspects of the 2024 fixture list which were discussed by the board included changes to Sunday racing, including the possibility of Sunday evening racing.

Changes to make British racing more competitive at certain times of the year are also believed to have been on the agenda, including the removal of a number of jumps races from the programme and moving some Flat turf meetings from the summer, when there has been downward pressure on field sizes, to the autumn when demand from the horse population is greater.
---------------


'..... moving some Flat turf meetings from the summer, when there has been downward pressure on field sizes, to the autumn when demand from the horse population is greater'.

WHAT?

Is AUTUMN not CRAMMED enough already? ....

With Connections having to decide between the St Leger Meeting and Leopardstown Champion Stakes weekend -
- followed by - Newmarket Cambridgeshire meeting/Longchamp Arc meeting - and then Ascot Champions Day - all practically on top of each other (from a Horse preparation perspective) - Plus the Breeders Cup.

Thanks onlooker

The "uncluttering" needs to happen at the BHA

Has the bha ever been run by anybody who has any idea about this sport ?

So arc who are all for this nonsense have put forward Yarmouth as a gesture to race at 400 national day well the attendance this year was only 2426 so it couldn’t be much worse with the late start.

As I said earlier Peter savile who originally came up with this idea won’t be affected as plumpton never race on a Saturday,come to think of it i would rather Jimmy savile be running the bha.

I've put the latest BHA output on a new thread 'Fixture List Changes'.

Unfortunately these thing only get publication when they are a 'fait accomplie'. Many  interested parties that have a stake holding in racing knew to late to do much about it. Personally I don't think it will achieve the results they are looking for but it will provide opportunities for owners and trainers exploit if they are shrewd enough. The thought of that ITV lot gloating over 'exclusive premiership' racing is very tedious.

Who didnt get a say Honcho? The Committee that recommended this to the BHA Board was mainly made up of racecourses, trainers & jockey reps, breeders and owners group.

Of course the jury is out on whether this will work but attendances have been struggling since covid and turnover is down (although not Levy yield yet) due to affordability checks. The levy yield may be increased if the review ups the % bookies have to pay but racing needs to have a good look at why these things are happening and find some remedies.

I mean..
Do we not have premierisation already?
York seems to race every saturday from the Dante meet anyway.
So its just 3 meetings on saturday afternoon from now on, possibly the only time when betting shops are anywhere near populated with punters..
Brilliant idea! Lets cut back on the betting opportunities!
The idea that the modern discerning punter has a keen understanding of the better quality horses, well its been around for yonks and its a load of old pony.
Think there was a time when a Ladbrokes in one of the swankier areas of west London introduced a 'Racing Room'. Full of portraits of legends of the turf, there was never any one in there. Billy Punter was downstairs with the rest of the spit n sawdust brigade. Cursing Lester and calling the game bent no doubt.

Attheraces are not going to show anything at all during those timeslots.
Seems to me to be just a ruse for RUK to avoid all those embarrassing moments when all their pontificating pundits are all set to wax lyrical about a G1 winner but have to give way for the 4:02 from market raspberry.

If the BHA were really interested in raising the profile of horseracing then they would start by ending what Nick Luck once called the 'saturdayisation' of the product.
Like that daft day when the july cup clashes with the John Smiths and the Summer Mile.
They could start by moving the Derby from its now 'traditional' 1-30 saturday berth.

The pies

Turnover is down

Well perhaps if they accommodated more of what punters asked for turnover would increase

Kim Bailey in today's blog...

The powers at the BHA have spoken and changes on the format of racing will appear in 2024..

300 less jump races.. Premier racing on Saturday and improvements to the quality of racing on Sunday..and a trial late night racing on Sundays..Racing time changes to suit the betting public might not go down well with racecourses who need people not online punters..

Is this sport becoming more interested in punters money than ever before I wonder?..

Sunday night viewing of Countryfile or Antiques roadshow might quake in their boots when it is announced that all weather racing from Newcastle/Kempton is on the other channel..

I feel sorry for the flat trainers, who probably like all trainers are struggling to keep staff happy.. Staff hate Sunday racing and it is one of the big areas why retention in this sport is so difficult..

We will see, but I am sure there will be many hours of discussion to come and tree loads of paper used up too…

As thelatarps suggests, the only winners are RTV and I'm not even sure about them because it was an Irish meeting that made RTV split-screen the Derby

ITV coverage is already "premierised" because they do not cover the meetings they are not covering (by definition, almost) so this will make no difference. The various preview podcasts from Betfair, the Racing Post, Oddschecker etc follow ITV's lead.

Newspapers, including the Racing Post, will still have to print as many cards as they do now. Stable staff have to get up earlier for midday meetings.

It is not so much that I do not think Premierisation will work but that even on its own terms, I cannot see the mechanism by which racing or anyone else benefits.

The Pies, there was no consultation with owners, trainers, racegoers as far as I have seen. This has got nothing to do with attendance, just retaining high class horses. As Ramruna points out no one else will benefit. As I have said, I don't think it will work anyway.

Honcho, ROA and NTF were on the Committee that made recommendation to BHA board. Horserace Bettors Forum also consulted apparently.

Somebody may have posted this so apologies if that is correct.

But the reason we have these car crash Saturdays is because the BHB I think that is what they were called at the time and don't know if Savill was involved) moved all the big races to a Saturday in order to increase turnover.

Now the meddling martketeers at the BHA seem to have come to the conclusion that that move should be reversed.

Does any of this make any sense?

I know Pies, but they never had anysort of consultation with their members. The ROA pre-covid, had regional forums every year to discuss these types of issues. Now absolute radio silence from them.

We ve ended up like this because of fobts,they wanted a race off every 5 mins ,to fool the fobt players that it’s great being in a bookies shop,cos it’s wall to wall action.
They didn’t care that no one was betting on these races as long as the 4 fobts were occupied.

2 quid stake introduced,has now highlighted,this problem.

Plus first 8 home in brittiania being bought by Asian market for big bucks,sees a drain on future quality.

So it looks like they re trying to guide punters towards these saturday 2-4 races,hoping it increases interest and turnover.

Who is this aimed at.

Itv audience,clearly not,has they don’t mention the other races 2-4 anyway.
Rtv audience,these are hard core race fans,industry people,who won’t care,just helps rtv with spilt screen problems.
Shop punters,surely a minority,plus it’s a Saturday,trying to stop them betting at thirsk at 3.30. Making them bet ascot 3.40,is fudging the turnover.
The on line punter,they are across all these above anyway,and fall into a category.

Losers,the Saturday crowd at the crap meetings,the tracks income.

Might be worth a trial. But needs a bigger overall.

Unless there’s 8 top class races 2-4. Don’t see how it works.

But trying anything is better than trying nothing. So let’s see

Comingupthehill

What time would york start today as it’s a crap meeting ?

They are going to make Sunday racing better

One of the best races ran on a Sunday is the cathedral stakes at Salisbury run on the Sunday before royal ascot except it’s been run tonight

So it looks like they re trying to guide punters towards these saturday 2-4 races,hoping it increases interest and turnover.  -- No, they just want to provide an opportunity for high class horses to run for big money. Its aimed at owners of high class horses. It will be sponsorship and prize money diverted from reduced races that pay for it not increased betting turnover.