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What Trainer in there right mind would not stick a decent claimer up....Absolute Mug.
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I think you will find Hollie gets on with the horse better than any other jockey.
Reminds me of the reverse of when you get a 3 year old filly in the Cox plate carrying 7 stone 4 so either you get a complete weakling starving themselves on board or you sacrifice the weight and go with a top jockey.
Aussie weights are weird…saw a g1 sprint with someone at 6 stone 12…Jesus lads ffs
Aussie weights are weird…saw a g1 sprint with someone at 6 stone 12…Jesus lads ffs
Always looks a push button ride to me...Get a claimer up no brainer.
i don't see why you wouldn't book a claimer for any race of this value. this should be a field of apprentices
as we know the apprentice situation is a joke right now
as we know the apprentice situation is a joke right now
Cant have Trueshan at all off that rating.
Claimer would of made sense especially as there are some excellent ones around at moment
Claimer would of made sense especially as there are some excellent ones around at moment
In long distance races, over both codes, I'd go for a red-hot claimer, like Bradley Furniss
Hollie already in the winners enclosure & It wont be the last time today 
Nice to see Said knocking out the winners. He's is a likeable chap and when he has one he thinks will win he tends to let you know if you ask beforehand.
She's on a Newcastle specialist in the sprint.
ELG - "Aussie weights are weird…saw a g1 sprint with someone at 6 stone 12…Jesus lads ffs"
That sounds incredible!
Would you have a link to that? Seeing is believing
Would that 6-12 have a claim involved? I'm not so conversant with their
rules of racing...there aren't claims at group level on these shores.
That sounds incredible!
Would you have a link to that? Seeing is believing
Would that 6-12 have a claim involved? I'm not so conversant with their
rules of racing...there aren't claims at group level on these shores.
the forums derby and tennis absolute embarrassment now advising top trainers..
WAC.
WAC.
A claimer? I think that's mad. Hollie is top class how many pounds does an inexperienced jock need to make up for that?
will be one of the best hcp performances ever if he can win this, and the money still comes.
1 of the all time great weight carrying performances both codes
that is why King didn't put a claimer on.....brilliant performance
acey..this bloke won the naps comp? 
embarrassed himself every week.
embarrassed himself every week.
Jockey worth her weight in gold, but that horse was great today
Insult to Hollie that anyone thinks a claimer would be better on the horse. 
acey deucey:
What Trainer in there right mind would not stick a decent claimer up....Absolute Mug.
mary hinge:
Cant have Trueshan at all off that rating. Claimer would of made sense
____________
Tells you everything you need to know.
What Trainer in there right mind would not stick a decent claimer up....Absolute Mug.
mary hinge:
Cant have Trueshan at all off that rating. Claimer would of made sense
____________
Tells you everything you need to know.
acey deucy 25 Jun 22 10:44
What Trainer in there right mind would not stick a decent claimer up....Absolute Mug
acey deucy 25 Jun 22 23:03
So when did i say it wouldn't win?
you were insinuating it had too much weight so wouldnt win without 7lb off..or am i mistaken?
What Trainer in there right mind would not stick a decent claimer up....Absolute Mug
acey deucy 25 Jun 22 23:03
So when did i say it wouldn't win?
you were insinuating it had too much weight so wouldnt win without 7lb off..or am i mistaken?
thats 3 times in a week or so youve made an absolute cny of yourself..proving again you're absolutely fckn clueless.
acey deucy 25 Jun 22 10:44
What Trainer in there right mind would not stick a decent claimer up....Absolute Mug
why this comment if the weight wouldnt stop it?
What Trainer in there right mind would not stick a decent claimer up....Absolute Mug
why this comment if the weight wouldnt stop it?
after the derby/tennis/trueshan you're boots will be on ebay.
fckn clueless..but its all pretendee so harm done.
fckn clueless..but its all pretendee so harm done.
i think acey probably has velcro bootie slippers so my money is on rico to do them up, sorry acey
it does show any clown can win the premier naps table..
Which of these stayers would you back on the All-Weather eg Trueshan, Stradivarius, Kyprios and Mojo Star? My money will be on Trueshan without any doubt.
rico you aint got the balls to take me on in a tipping challenge.....You never has an opinion in yer life ffs.
acey deucy 26 Jun 22 19:03
rico you aint got the balls to take me on in a tipping challenge.....
ive forgot more than you'll know x10..luckily for me ive made that much i dont need to look at a race until it goes off...you're the main man acey? post your bf portal..isnt difficult takes 10 secs.
rico you aint got the balls to take me on in a tipping challenge.....
ive forgot more than you'll know x10..luckily for me ive made that much i dont need to look at a race until it goes off...you're the main man acey? post your bf portal..isnt difficult takes 10 secs.
a sense of proportion is needed
Trueshan and Hollie Doyle win the Northumberland Plate at Newcastle
Trueshan and Hollie Doyle win the Northumberland Plate at Newcastle
By John Randall
5:00PM, JUN 26 2022
Trueshan made history with a record-breaking performance on Saturday, but let's not get carried away.
In terms of merit there can be a big difference between the weight a winner carries and the value of the form. Trueshan's feat is historic according to the first criterion, but not the second.
Among champion stayers in living memory, the best weight-carrying performance was by Levmoss, who defied 10st 10lb with an astonishing three-length victory in a Curragh handicap in 1969.
Levmoss had already won the Prix du Cadran and Ascot Gold Cup, and the 1m6f Leinster Handicap was owner-trainer Seamus McGrath's choice as a prep race for the Prix de l'Arc de Triomphe, which the colt proceeded to win at odds of 52-1.
Under his welter burden of 10st 8lb, Trueshan easily beat the weight-carrying record for a Northumberland Plate winner – 9st 10lb by Barcaldine (1883), Karadar (1984), Bold Gait (1995) and Tominator (2013).
Barcaldine, the best horse to win the Plate, was a great champion who was unbeaten in a 12-race career that culminated at Newcastle. Ridden by Fred Archer, he triumphed in a canter by two lengths in a contest in which the bottomweight carried 5st 7lb.
Trueshan's effort was superficially superior, but that is merely because the scale of weights has risen. Winning the race under 9st 10lb in Victorian times meant much more than winning it under 10st 8lb today, when the quality of the fields in the big handicaps has dropped considerably.
Nineteenth-century champions routinely ran in handicaps, and the two greatest Flat handicap performances of all time may have been recorded by Isonomy when winning the Ebor by eight lengths under 9st 8lb in 1879, and the Manchester Cup under 9st 12lb the following May, giving up to 59lb to his rivals. Those herculean efforts came between his two victories in the Ascot Gold Cup.
Since 1900 it has became increasingly rare for top-class Flat horses to run in handicap company, but champion sprinter Irish Elegance put up a series of awesome weight-carrying performances as a four-year-old in 1919.
The former July Cup winner triumphed in the Salford Borough Handicap under 9st 9lb, Royal Hunt Cup (9st 11lb) and Portland Handicap (10st 2lb), and was second in the Stewards' Cup (10st 2lb). His contemporary Gainsborough won the Triple Crown, but Irish Elegance was greater.
However, it was French champion Epinard who, in defeat, put up probably the greatest handicap performance since 1900 on the Flat in Britain or Ireland.
Epinard, already winner of the Stewards' Cup, should have set a weight-carrying record for a three-year-old in the Cambridgeshire in 1923, but his incompetent jockey caused him to be beaten a neck by Verdict (received 18lb), a subsequent Coronation Cup victress.
In the immediate post-war era the champions whose handicap efforts went off the top of the scale included The Bug, Sayani, My Babu, Pappa Fourway, Princely Gift, Matador, Donald, Hafiz, Arcandy, Right Boy and Bleep-Bleep.
Levmoss's dazzling win at the Curragh has not been the only handicap performance superior to Trueshan's within living memory. Roman Warrior set the weight-carrying record for the Ayr Gold Cup when defying 10st in 1975, though he, like Trueshan, may have been one of those horses to whom weight makes little difference.
In any case, weight-carrying records can be misleading. Sea Pigeon won the Ebor under 10st in 1979 but was not top-class on the Flat, while Hoof It landed the Stewards' Cup under 10st in 2011 but was no champion.
On Racing Post Ratings, Trueshan (128) still ranks below Baaeed (130) and Nature Strip (129) on the Flat in Britain and Ireland so far this year. Those who hyped his Newcastle victory as one of the all-time great racing performances need to get a sense of proportion.
Trueshan and Hollie Doyle win the Northumberland Plate at Newcastle
Trueshan and Hollie Doyle win the Northumberland Plate at Newcastle
By John Randall
5:00PM, JUN 26 2022
Trueshan made history with a record-breaking performance on Saturday, but let's not get carried away.
In terms of merit there can be a big difference between the weight a winner carries and the value of the form. Trueshan's feat is historic according to the first criterion, but not the second.
Among champion stayers in living memory, the best weight-carrying performance was by Levmoss, who defied 10st 10lb with an astonishing three-length victory in a Curragh handicap in 1969.
Levmoss had already won the Prix du Cadran and Ascot Gold Cup, and the 1m6f Leinster Handicap was owner-trainer Seamus McGrath's choice as a prep race for the Prix de l'Arc de Triomphe, which the colt proceeded to win at odds of 52-1.
Under his welter burden of 10st 8lb, Trueshan easily beat the weight-carrying record for a Northumberland Plate winner – 9st 10lb by Barcaldine (1883), Karadar (1984), Bold Gait (1995) and Tominator (2013).
Barcaldine, the best horse to win the Plate, was a great champion who was unbeaten in a 12-race career that culminated at Newcastle. Ridden by Fred Archer, he triumphed in a canter by two lengths in a contest in which the bottomweight carried 5st 7lb.
Trueshan's effort was superficially superior, but that is merely because the scale of weights has risen. Winning the race under 9st 10lb in Victorian times meant much more than winning it under 10st 8lb today, when the quality of the fields in the big handicaps has dropped considerably.
Nineteenth-century champions routinely ran in handicaps, and the two greatest Flat handicap performances of all time may have been recorded by Isonomy when winning the Ebor by eight lengths under 9st 8lb in 1879, and the Manchester Cup under 9st 12lb the following May, giving up to 59lb to his rivals. Those herculean efforts came between his two victories in the Ascot Gold Cup.
Since 1900 it has became increasingly rare for top-class Flat horses to run in handicap company, but champion sprinter Irish Elegance put up a series of awesome weight-carrying performances as a four-year-old in 1919.
The former July Cup winner triumphed in the Salford Borough Handicap under 9st 9lb, Royal Hunt Cup (9st 11lb) and Portland Handicap (10st 2lb), and was second in the Stewards' Cup (10st 2lb). His contemporary Gainsborough won the Triple Crown, but Irish Elegance was greater.
However, it was French champion Epinard who, in defeat, put up probably the greatest handicap performance since 1900 on the Flat in Britain or Ireland.
Epinard, already winner of the Stewards' Cup, should have set a weight-carrying record for a three-year-old in the Cambridgeshire in 1923, but his incompetent jockey caused him to be beaten a neck by Verdict (received 18lb), a subsequent Coronation Cup victress.
In the immediate post-war era the champions whose handicap efforts went off the top of the scale included The Bug, Sayani, My Babu, Pappa Fourway, Princely Gift, Matador, Donald, Hafiz, Arcandy, Right Boy and Bleep-Bleep.
Levmoss's dazzling win at the Curragh has not been the only handicap performance superior to Trueshan's within living memory. Roman Warrior set the weight-carrying record for the Ayr Gold Cup when defying 10st in 1975, though he, like Trueshan, may have been one of those horses to whom weight makes little difference.
In any case, weight-carrying records can be misleading. Sea Pigeon won the Ebor under 10st in 1979 but was not top-class on the Flat, while Hoof It landed the Stewards' Cup under 10st in 2011 but was no champion.
On Racing Post Ratings, Trueshan (128) still ranks below Baaeed (130) and Nature Strip (129) on the Flat in Britain and Ireland so far this year. Those who hyped his Newcastle victory as one of the all-time great racing performances need to get a sense of proportion.
When Isonomy won the Ebor there were I believe ( not remember ! ) half a dozen runners. How many did Levmoss beat in that h'cap ? He doesn't say. The race on Saturday was a well run race with a good sized field. If Sea Pigeon was not top class at around 14-16f he was very close. He was never aimed at group races at that distance and was trained for more valuable ( h'caps ) outside his optimum distance and also jump races that were often not run on the sound surface he prefered. One thing's for sure in my mind Sea Pigeon would have laughed at Trueshan on good ground around 14f.
Mentioning Hoof it in the same sentence as SP is a joke. By the latter's time h'caps had become much more contracted. The bottom weight carried 8-11. I think Sea Pigeon gave around two and a half stone to a very decent 3-y-o in Donegal Prince. Ridiculous stuff from Randall.
Isonomy was an all time great but does he really think many of these small field Victorian performances plenty on soft ground were better than modern horses post-Northern Dancer ?
You can beat any horse that doesn't like the ( soft ) ground or STAY the trip on such ground. It's the kind of thinking that makes some think Flyingbolt was better than Arkle. They look good on the numbers but are often freak races. Saturdays plate was well run well contested on a fair surface. He won because he's a Group One horse. When was the last time we saw an already established Group One horse run in a handicap ? I can't rembenber.
You can beat any horse that doesn't like the ( soft ) ground or STAY the trip on such ground. It's the kind of thinking that makes some think Flyingbolt was better than Arkle. They look good on the numbers but are often freak races. Saturdays plate was well run well contested on a fair surface. He won because he's a Group One horse. When was the last time we saw an already established Group One horse run in a handicap ? I can't rembenber.
Sea pigeon was a gelding so couldnt
prove top class status. My Grandad
backed him in the Derby before he was
given the chop. (sea pigeon not me grand dad)
prove top class status. My Grandad
backed him in the Derby before he was
given the chop. (sea pigeon not me grand dad)
Yes he couldn't run in the Gold Cup and other races.
"Levmoss's dazzling win at the Curragh has not been the only handicap performance superior to Trueshan's within living memory. Roman Warrior set the weight-carrying record for the Ayr Gold Cup when defying 10st in 1975, though he, like Trueshan, may have been one of those horses to whom weight makes little difference."
Trueshan is a normal physical specimen. RW was definitely not. Anyway before SP's time. My view is Trueshan put up the most remarkable handicap performance ( in a staying race where pounds count for more lengths ) since '79. Randall is right about top class horses running 100's of years ago but is out of order with many other comments.
"Levmoss's dazzling win at the Curragh has not been the only handicap performance superior to Trueshan's within living memory. Roman Warrior set the weight-carrying record for the Ayr Gold Cup when defying 10st in 1975, though he, like Trueshan, may have been one of those horses to whom weight makes little difference."
Trueshan is a normal physical specimen. RW was definitely not. Anyway before SP's time. My view is Trueshan put up the most remarkable handicap performance ( in a staying race where pounds count for more lengths ) since '79. Randall is right about top class horses running 100's of years ago but is out of order with many other comments.
Trueshan, may have been one of those horses to whom weight makes little difference.
John Randall takes the prize for the most stupid statement in the whole history of horse racing.
He's genuinely claiming that gravity was switched off at Newcastle on Saturday.
John Randall takes the prize for the most stupid statement in the whole history of horse racing.
He's genuinely claiming that gravity was switched off at Newcastle on Saturday.
I think he means some horses can carry big weights
whilst others run better as lightweights.
Maybe they'll send it hurdling, see if it can
hump 12 stone round chelters just to find out!
whilst others run better as lightweights.
Maybe they'll send it hurdling, see if it can
hump 12 stone round chelters just to find out!
Yeah thanks for picking out the line I should have highlighted. It's bull full stop but in any case RW was a freak weight carrier. We know he wasn't a group one horse. Trueshan is. Randall strongly comes across as a wet blanket in this piece I'm afraid.
any portal from the forum clown? as he is way better than me?
WAC.
WAC.
I've had decades of enjoyment reading Randall's articles but this incarnation is way past the sell-by date...it's
like gauging Clay v Liston against the version who fought Leon Spinks - still victorious but quite a bit missing.
This entire piece smacks of a typical bitter & twisted, grumpy old man who never got his knób sucked in the
swinging sixties and was a total "in the good old days" kinda geezer, absolutely gutted that the younger breed
were getting 'serviced' while he was busy smashing one off.
Ironically, I usually agree with that maxim about times gone by, but this sounds like begrudgingly faint praise.
I didn't know about Levmoss (that sounds hard to take in) but this old fárt has to go back over 50 years to
find anything remotely comparable to what Trueshan achieved at the weekend.
I much prefer the outlook I share with a couple of friends (and I'd suggest a few enthusiasts on here) in that
we weren't even fans of the horse, but we were blown away by what we witnessed, so there was no bias involved
whatsoever...just an appreciation of a once in a lifetime cracking performance.
I was even amazed they contemplated running with that weight - never mind winning the race!
I thought they were nuts...as well as the people who forced the gamble on it as I couldn't see it happening
though it was really pleasing to be proven wrong.
I don't care about the opposition...or how much improvement (or not) there might be in them - the fact
remains, it was a HANDICAP...and a big one over 2M at that and a rating of 120 didn't suggest he was on the slide.
C'mon John...credit where it's due - you're scraping the barrel in looking for what seems like wanting a comparison
to Frankel or something similar, which makes me wonder if there's possibly another angle to that article.
Maybe a personal slight at connections? Who knows...because John's a very smart man and can't claim stupidity.
like gauging Clay v Liston against the version who fought Leon Spinks - still victorious but quite a bit missing.
This entire piece smacks of a typical bitter & twisted, grumpy old man who never got his knób sucked in the
swinging sixties and was a total "in the good old days" kinda geezer, absolutely gutted that the younger breed
were getting 'serviced' while he was busy smashing one off.
Ironically, I usually agree with that maxim about times gone by, but this sounds like begrudgingly faint praise.
I didn't know about Levmoss (that sounds hard to take in) but this old fárt has to go back over 50 years to
find anything remotely comparable to what Trueshan achieved at the weekend.
I much prefer the outlook I share with a couple of friends (and I'd suggest a few enthusiasts on here) in that
we weren't even fans of the horse, but we were blown away by what we witnessed, so there was no bias involved
whatsoever...just an appreciation of a once in a lifetime cracking performance.
I was even amazed they contemplated running with that weight - never mind winning the race!
I thought they were nuts...as well as the people who forced the gamble on it as I couldn't see it happening
though it was really pleasing to be proven wrong.
I don't care about the opposition...or how much improvement (or not) there might be in them - the fact
remains, it was a HANDICAP...and a big one over 2M at that and a rating of 120 didn't suggest he was on the slide.
C'mon John...credit where it's due - you're scraping the barrel in looking for what seems like wanting a comparison
to Frankel or something similar, which makes me wonder if there's possibly another angle to that article.
Maybe a personal slight at connections? Who knows...because John's a very smart man and can't claim stupidity.
The fact Randall has to drag a 53 year old race up says it all really.
Hello again Al...it's been a long hiatus.
I've just messaged you
Pump - that's exactly what I thought...it's very begrudged.
I have to go back to Sea Pigeon shortheading a decent stayer called Shaftesbury in The Ebor, but with 'only' 10st
to make any sort of comparison.
I think Trueshan's performance towers over that despite another poster on this thread thinking the exact opposite
which is all about opinions I suppose - I wonder what would be the equivalent highest rating he achieved - not 120.
I loved Sea Pigeon but he was NOT a group one horse on the flat - the era was very different and he could've won
a few listed or pattern races if campaigned differently but you would've got a very big price about him for the
biggest staying events against Sagaro, Buckskin & Le Moss.
I've just messaged you
Pump - that's exactly what I thought...it's very begrudged.
I have to go back to Sea Pigeon shortheading a decent stayer called Shaftesbury in The Ebor, but with 'only' 10st
to make any sort of comparison.
I think Trueshan's performance towers over that despite another poster on this thread thinking the exact opposite
which is all about opinions I suppose - I wonder what would be the equivalent highest rating he achieved - not 120.
I loved Sea Pigeon but he was NOT a group one horse on the flat - the era was very different and he could've won
a few listed or pattern races if campaigned differently but you would've got a very big price about him for the
biggest staying events against Sagaro, Buckskin & Le Moss.
If he had said it was comparable with a couple of other races in living memory then fair enough, sorry to say that article was absolute garbage.
Only doing his job,I suppose.Trueshan's performance
aswell as his connections should be given credit for running
him.You don't see what he did too often,should be enjoyed,bit
of nitpicking to me.
aswell as his connections should be given credit for running
him.You don't see what he did too often,should be enjoyed,bit
of nitpicking to me.
Just realised...it was Donegal Prince that was short-headed in that Ebor 
I don't know why Shaftesbury sprang to mind...maybe he was 3rd?
I don't know why Shaftesbury sprang to mind...maybe he was 3rd?
Enjoyed your posts Gibberish. Yeah the Gold Cup wouldn't have been Sea Pigeon's thing in my opinion. Only won 2 champion hurdles after they reduced the distance. Of course he won Chester Cups but it was there against inferiors. Now if the Goodwood cup had been 2 miles back then..
And it's Group 1 now. There's more opportunities these days. I do see Trueshan as an out and out stayer but of course a very good one. Not quite a Ye ats or Le Moss. Ardross was better than all of 'em imo but at 14-16f.
Howard - you're sounding a bit like John Randall crabbing Trueshan there - are you sexually frustrated too?
"Only won 2 champion hurdles after they reduced the distance" - I'm aware of that but I'd reckon there was more
to that as Monksfield was an entire (a rarity) when he finally got his revenge, Night Nurse had gone chasing and
Birds Nest was an unpredictable nutter (though a very likeable one)
I don't believe for one second it was the shorter distance that enabled Sea Pigeon to win two Champion Hurdles.
As good as Daring Run & Pollardstown were, they weren't exactly Night Nurse and a peak Monksfield, though they
would've been fair champions in any normal era.
I don't know what rating Sea Pigeon was on when he carried 10st in that Ebor but I doubt he would've been rated 120.
I'd suggest a few pounds below that (maybe 3/4/5) but nevertheless, what more can a top weight with a very high
rating do than win one of the season's biggest handicaps?
As for Goodwood...that's a fair point but he would've been up against it facing Le Moss et al.
Looking back...he could've won many a decent group race if Easterby had planned differently but there's no pleasing
everybody as we look back with such reverence & nostalgia at those days when there was more kudos for handicaps (giving
lumps of weight) than some of the often cheap grade ones nowadays like the Victor Chandler & Tingle Creek at level weights.
"Only won 2 champion hurdles after they reduced the distance" - I'm aware of that but I'd reckon there was more
to that as Monksfield was an entire (a rarity) when he finally got his revenge, Night Nurse had gone chasing and
Birds Nest was an unpredictable nutter (though a very likeable one)
I don't believe for one second it was the shorter distance that enabled Sea Pigeon to win two Champion Hurdles.
As good as Daring Run & Pollardstown were, they weren't exactly Night Nurse and a peak Monksfield, though they
would've been fair champions in any normal era.
I don't know what rating Sea Pigeon was on when he carried 10st in that Ebor but I doubt he would've been rated 120.
I'd suggest a few pounds below that (maybe 3/4/5) but nevertheless, what more can a top weight with a very high
rating do than win one of the season's biggest handicaps?
As for Goodwood...that's a fair point but he would've been up against it facing Le Moss et al.
Looking back...he could've won many a decent group race if Easterby had planned differently but there's no pleasing
everybody as we look back with such reverence & nostalgia at those days when there was more kudos for handicaps (giving
lumps of weight) than some of the often cheap grade ones nowadays like the Victor Chandler & Tingle Creek at level weights.
Howard - I agree about Ardross - Yéats & Stradivarius wouldn't have seen his árse for dust!
Howard - that Goodwood Cup you just mentioned had me thinking about the brilliant Morley Street who beat
Michelozzo (St Leger winner) at levels many years ago...and I was staggered to realise I was wrong again
It was a conditions race in the October at Goodwood - I could've sworn he won a group race but he was
short-headed in the Doncaster Cup by another Cecil stayer in Greta Marquess.
Michelozzo (St Leger winner) at levels many years ago...and I was staggered to realise I was wrong again
It was a conditions race in the October at Goodwood - I could've sworn he won a group race but he was
short-headed in the Doncaster Cup by another Cecil stayer in Greta Marquess.
Mark Birch didn't think he could win ( he chose to ride No Bombs ) and neither did most punters ( 18/1 ) I think it was the ground more than the distance that was previously in Monksfield's favour as if my memory is correct he was fine on soft and probably liked it. You will remember how bad the ground was at some festivals in those days.
Luckily for him he was on Protection Racket 2 years later.
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