Tote Returns

haven't they got some sort of guarantee that they will at least match SP?

At Sandown on Saturday, all tote returns were basically equal to SP

didn't someone say there was a problem reporting them or was that a separate issue? i thought aintree & wolves were other tracks where they were mirrored or similar sat, also looked similar sunday too but never looked yday

At the last Cheltenham festival where crowds were allowed they advertised everywhere they would match or beat the sp in all races i can’t remember the exact number now but it was over 20 races were they were under the sp yet nobody played up about the false advertising

I do not know about on course but online on the Tote site if you back a win single and the tote dividend is less than SP they pay you out at SP.

so what is now in the rp results for the tote rtn is the boosted price to mirror the sp as opposed to them reporting the lower tote odds, i just never noticed they had started reporting it like that

They need to advertise it better. The vast majority of every day punters back SP but in multiples. If they started accepting multiples with this concession (OK, max price limits would be needed) they could really start eating into the market share which would be great for racing.

thanks for that basically BOG and tote are the same.

Are they I don’t bet with the tote but I presume you can’t take a price so therefore it’s not bog

the hope is that the tote beats SP but seems less of an occurence in recent times with the high take out.

There were five winners out of six on Champions Day where the Tote beat the SP - not by much, but enough to provide an edge. That was also the last day this year where the local Tote was tied in to the World Pool, so much higher amounts in the pools.

did they reduce the take out on World Pool days?

I've no idea - if they did, it wasn't something they publicised in the PR material about the World Pool.

tote returns for win bets (almost )exactly mirror the SP now , so they are obviously being maufactured, why is this now the case ?

"why is this now the case ?"



short answer: Money (guess who's pocketing it?)



longer answer:

The "Price guarantee" now allows/enables them to pay out 30/1 on a 30/1 shot (which previously would have paid 60/1 on tote) under the guise of paying evens on an evens winner which sometimes paid less than evens on the tote due to take out and the punters bias to favourites.


As far as I know, they are also now allowed to bet into their own pools, with prior knowledge of the ticket distribution. This exact prior knowledge is extremely £valuable info and the pool betting pro's I know used to have to guess it based on their understanding of punter favourite skew/bias.

typically the way to riches on pool betting used to be along the lines of
1) create your own tissue on a race
2) take an educated guess at which nags would be under selected by the punters and pay out at above high street prices
3) bet on all the nags which would likely pay out above your tissue
4) buy a flat in 1 Hyde park for £150 million


basically the Tote has kicked out all the pros and is pocketing the lot

This is how it works..

They guarantee SP and then minipulate the market to ensure that hardly any return is higher than SP.

It's an SP bet in disguise.

Perhaps "manipulate the pool" is more accurate.

the question that needs answering is does the 'window' close for the tote's own bets to go into the pool, after the off when others have been shut out, i.e. with full knowledge of the apparent end pool amounts.

It's rip off Britain, corrupt to the core, fill yer own pockets, robbery with out a mask

I have posted this on a previous thread: Pool Guarantee Service (PGS)

As part of our commitment to provide bigger and more compelling pools for all customers to bet into, the UK Tote operates the Pool Guarantee Service (PGS), which provides seeding to the pools operated by UK Tote.

PGS seeds the single leg pools by adding consistent layers of early liquidity to make the pools deeper and more robust. Seeding commences up to two hours in advance of the scheduled off time, depending on the pool type, and is programmed to be delivered in equal waves. This reduces the price variation between the guide prices, as the pools build before the races, and the dividends that are ultimately declared after the result and leads to greater predictability for customers about what the pools will pay on any winning bet.

PGS also seeds some multileg pools such as the Placepot, to make the pool sizes consistently larger and more attractive to bet into. We may increase the PGS values where we guarantee a significant value of any of our multileg products. PGS does not seed any pools that can build by customer bets routinely rolling over, such as the Jackpot and Scoop6.

PGS is a pre-set automated system that seeds the pools in line with prevailing market prices by placing actual bets into the pools. It is not part of the pool betting system and is entirely ring fenced from it which means it has no visibility to any other individual bets placed in the pools. In its operation, PGS relies entirely upon data that is publicly available and has no information advantage over any other customer. Once the automated system has been set, PGS operates independently from the internal Tote teams, and no member of the Tote team sees any of the bets placed by PGS while pools are building.

PGS makes a loss on its seeding bets across all products. Separately, as with all customer bets, the Tote retains a fixed percentage take-out on all bets placed by PGS. The proportion of the take out ultimately retained by the Tote after the costs of operating the pools covers the betting losses of PGS and typically leaves a surplus.  The Tote reinvests any surplus in Tote products such as Tote Guarantee and Tote+, contributing to enhanced dividend payouts to all customers. As a result, PGS helps to stabilise pool dividends and also allows the Tote to improve its returns to customers.

For context, the vast majority of pools (and exchanges) around the world are seeded.
Information on PGS can be found in our press release of 29th May 2020 which can be viewed here. In addition, on 4th March 2022 we also recorded a short podcast about our plans for the 2022 Cheltenham Festival which included a further explanation of PGS – you can listen to it here.

The operation of PGS is referred to in the Tote Terms and Conditions (14.8) available here.

I don't think they'd go as far as to place bets after the start.

The very rare occurance of the tote return beating SP is when they have been able to react to any late bets.

PGS does not seed any pools that can build by customer bets routinely rolling over, such as the Jackpot and Scoop6.

That's a lie. They might not play in the start when the pool could do with seeding but once the pot has built you can guarantee that
the tote will get involved in placing their own bets.

Back in the 80s the tote were found to be placing bets after the result never mind after the start.

Can’t remember the exact details but I’m sure the likes of ged,onlooker or anorak would know the details.

The whole point of a Tote Pool , is that, it should be entirely independent from any and all Bookmakers odds , and that those choosing to bet into a Tote Pool are fully aware that the returns from any winning bet may be better or worse than fixed odds , but nevertheless choose to take that risk regardless, if the Pool returns are manipulated at any time and in any way, Then, there is no point of a Tote Pool

The UK Tote , now has no Integrity

That is our point

Dec 7, 2021 -- 4:46AM, second again wrote:

I do not know about on course but online on the Tote site if you back a win single and the tote dividend is less than SP they pay you out at SP.

moreover , if the Tote dividend is Higher, and its sometimes considerably Higher , theyll pay you out at SP !

Time the Gambling commission looked into this whole process of the Tote betting into their own pools.

No transparency at all, how many tickets are the tote " buying ", when / why are they being placed.?

Untill they do this everyone is bound to think its corrupt.

= The UK Tote published dividend will only be ever slightly higher than SP on one race per meeting per day to substantiate this spurious claim ,its to ensure we consistently benefit from the Worst Odds

Glasgow--have you been in touch with the Gambling Commission.

They'll only investigate if they get complaints from a number of people.

Not as yet jml but will give it a go.

I hope you have a lot of patience glasgow

Morning jimnast, I will only be going to send them an email listing my concerns, something they will have to acknowledge at least even if as I suspect nothing will come of it.

Morning Glasgow

There are many pointless and incompetent  organisations in the uk I am sure we all have different ones at the top of that particular league mine would be this outfit.

I’ve just remembered another ridiculous outfit those who decided it was no longer appropriate to include the word faggert In fairly tale of New York

They offer an SP match, so if the Tote payout is lower than SP, they pay SP, and if its higher then you get paid out at that

Is that the same with the place dividends?

That's where the 'extra' comes from, place dividends of £1.02 are laughable!

Well dg has answered that question westberks would you know if the tote were still putting bets in the pool after the result was known like they use to ?

Does the tote seed the win pool to keep the dividends close to the likely SP dividends?

the tote MANIPULATE the win pool to keep the dividends close to the likely SP dividends?

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2022/mar/01/talking-horses-horse-racing-the-tote-betting

Greg Wood covered this a while back. Why haven't the Racing Post looked into this. There's been representatives of The Tote on Nick Lucks programme plenty of times and they're never asked. They play in their own pools, how much? when? etc etc, it should be open and transparent but is anything but.