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stewarty b
06 Dec 21 20:02
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Date Joined: 02 Aug 02
| Topic/replies: 34,776 | Blogger: stewarty b's blog
Anybody else had one?
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Report stewarts rise December 6, 2021 9:52 PM GMT
Have you not read Dr Atkins thread " They are coming for everybody."
Report the dealer December 6, 2021 9:55 PM GMT
If he hasn't he should, I would imagine it will effect him.
Report Rico-Dangleflaps December 6, 2021 11:00 PM GMT
stewy placing pretendee bets tonite...

wadc.
Report FOYLESWAR December 7, 2021 1:58 AM GMT
not had one yet but they will get around to everyone in the end!
Report The Management December 7, 2021 10:20 AM GMT
Only time will tell Foyles - maybe it will come to everyone - but (despite what some others on here have said) I don't see how they can legitimately do an Affordability check or a Source of Funds check on a customer that does not make deposits.

I'm not accusing anyone on here of telling porkies - We know everybody that posts on here is a winner! - but why are all these winners making deposits?

I can see many scenarios where genuine winners need to deposit (because of their MO) and therefore get subjected to a check: 

People that win through just plain arbing -  pre-event between sites, exploit place over-brokes, etc
People that win trading - (bet elsewhere) and use BF (in-play) to adjust positions, etc
People that win betting at extreme prices but have a bit of variance (Betting at 1.01, laying at 1000, etc.)
People that win but for whatever reason (don't trust BF, going on holiday, cashflow, etc) just like to withdraw their entire balance occasionally
There will be some other reasons that genuine winners need to make deposits from time to time.

But I'd stand by my opening statement - If you've already done KYC - I don't see how anybody can demand detailed personal information (under the guise of an Affordability check or a Source of Funds check) from a customer that does not make deposits. What would they say?

"That deposit you've never made - we want to know if you can afford it?"
"That deposit you've never made - we want to know where it came from?"

It doesn't mean that these checks are good for the game - clearly they are terrible - especially if they remove losers from the ecosystem or limit losers to much smaller deposits!
Report racing6699 December 7, 2021 11:36 AM GMT
T M i can tell you why. Because the rules are not clear and have grey areas so BF are terrified of breaking them and are going over the top. And Responsible gaming has been mixed with AML and also with affordability. And its left totally open to interpretation. Where its left us at is any behaviour they dont understand they ask for everything. Its as simple as that. I get your point is logical but non of this is logical. the reasons are basically that you could be 1. Have a gambling problem if you bet/turnover high volumes and they need to intervene. Ive had that conversation with another firm where i was 8k up in 2 months yet they felt my behaviour was a like this - so they basically said - i had a gambling problem and restricted my stakes (or that was their excuse) due to volume of bets. I saw on another thread a guy was questioned as to how he could bet at 2pm -4pm if he was at work. And social 'responsibility' kicked in in their reasoning. 2. The next issue is that say you had stolen money and were blowing it on another firm. The fact that they had done no checks on your turnover and behaviour on BF just because you didn't make a deposit is a grey area. As say you were umemployed and stealing money yet had made profit and were placing 2k bets on BF. The headline would be guy stole money - placed 2k bets at BF on gambling spree and no checks done. BF argument that 'he made no deposit' wouldnt work in these times. its all a total mess.
Report The Management December 7, 2021 11:52 AM GMT
racing6699 - thanks for reply, agree it's all grey and that obviously facilitates the way it's being delivered being a total shambles and/or the books from using it to pursue their own agenda.

You raise some interesting points - but if i'm being honest, now you've got me worried that the solution to some of the issues you raise is Single Customer View Sad - I still think (despite what the Information Commissioners Office has stated) that SCV would be in breach of (current) Data Protection Laws as they stand.

Just curious (understand if you don't want to reply), is your first initial L?
Report freddiewilliams December 7, 2021 12:06 PM GMT
My mate says they done a credit check on him......before they applied monthly deposit limit
Report The Management December 7, 2021 12:13 PM GMT
freddie - unfortunately as a stand alone statement that doesn't mean anything - none of these anecdotal stories mean anything without all of the details - because we don't know if your mate is a degenerate addict that was regularly losing more than he could afford (i.e. affordability checks are doing what they are supposed to be doing and protecting him/his family from his problem gambling) or if he is an "innocent victim" caught up in a shoddily delivered fiasco.
Report freddiewilliams December 7, 2021 12:20 PM GMT
He has 30 to 40 different bookmaker accounts
Report The Management December 7, 2021 12:24 PM GMT
Being facetious - that could still put him in either camp imo freddie Grin

I will give the benefit of the doubt and assume he is an innocent victim caught up in a shoddily delivered debacle.Wink
Report freddiewilliams December 7, 2021 12:26 PM GMT
So are they looking at the way he bets.....frequency,stake ,time s
Report swiftynifty December 7, 2021 12:28 PM GMT
if he has 30-40 active accounts it sounds like they will be doing him a favour.
Report freddiewilliams December 7, 2021 12:29 PM GMT
Dr Atkins has had 100 limit put on......my mates limit is much more......and he hasn't even tried yet to argue about getting it increased
Report freddiewilliams December 7, 2021 12:30 PM GMT
99 percent never used now.....was only to get free bets
Report freddiewilliams December 7, 2021 12:32 PM GMT
Several months ago he deposited 200 on ere......withdrew a bit over 21k.......Betfair won't get that back for a while
Report swiftynifty December 7, 2021 12:33 PM GMT
the way the bookies use cookies and the fact most are owned by about 3 companies he might be advised to close a few down.
Report thurnscoe thunder December 7, 2021 12:36 PM GMT
Im generally with TM on this.
It seems to me there are various algorithms at play each designed to catch certain possible characteristics
In general theyll get everyone they target but there are always individuals who happen to hit the target who they werent actually aiming for.

The below is from their page on budgets for those who havent yet found it


We've put together some FAQ’s on Budgets below if you want to find out more. If you don’t find what you’re looking for you can contact us at any time.



What are Budgets?

Your Budget is the amount you can spend on your account each month. It's based on your net deposits, which means that depositing will reduce the amount available to spend, and withdrawing your money will increase the amount available.

We apply Budgets automatically for any customer that seems like they could use a hand managing their spend. It’s a fair deal for everyone. Don’t worry though, if this applies to you, we’ll be in touch.



What’s the difference between Budgets vs Deposit Limits?

The main difference is that your Budget is set automatically by us and your Deposit Limit is set by you.



What happens if I have a Budget and a Deposit Limit at the same time?

In this case, the lower of the two limits will apply to your account.



How does this affect me?

Not all customers will have a Budget applied. You’ll get a notification when you log in if one has been set for you, and we’ll let you know what your Budget is and how to go about changing it.

We’ll also send you an email to give you the heads up.



How do I know how much I can deposit?

If a Budget is applied to your account we’ll work everything out for you and let you know. You’ll then be able to track your budget online or in the app.



How are they calculated?

Budgets are calculated using a range of data, including a soft credit check, which doesn’t affect your credit score but gives us an understanding of your financial situation. This is done automatically and all information is encrypted. Your data is 100% safe, we don’t see any of it.



What if I want a lower Budget?

That’s no problem at all. Contact us and we'll reduce your Budget to the amount you want.



What if I can afford to spend more than my limit?

If you feel we’ve got your Budget wrong and you’d like us to increase your Budget, you can get in touch with us online or through the app at any time.

This process can take a couple of days and you’ll need to provide some documents that show a higher limit is sustainable for you. You can contact us now to get started.



What information would I need to provide?

Budgets are based on the financial data we have available to us. But we know that there are ways you can fund your account which may not appear on our checks – such as: savings, sale of a property, inheritance, insurance pay out, trusts/investment funds. So if you’re funding your account through one of these methods, you’ll need to provide some additional documents.



What happens if I withdraw cash?

Your Budget is based on your net deposits for the month, which means that depositing will reduce the amount available and withdrawing will increase it. If you’ve set up a deposit limit as well, your Budget won’t ever go above the amount you set. Your Budget gets reset at the end of that month.



Why don’t I have a Budget?

Not all customers will have a Budget set. We use a range of info to apply them to accounts where we think it’s most needed.



Can I get rid of my Budget?

For the moment, we’re not removing Budgets from accounts. If you think your Budget is too high, you can contact us at any time and we'll reduce it to the amount that suits you. If you think it’s too low, you can get in touch online or through the app and chat with us about changing it.
Report freddiewilliams December 7, 2021 12:49 PM GMT
If I deposit 100k into his savings.....he shows his savings account balance to them.....will he get increase........
Report thurnscoe thunder December 7, 2021 12:50 PM GMT
With a budget being based on net deposits Im presuming accounts in credit or credit over a period of time will escape the budgets at least for the time being.
It still seems its all deposit based, and therefore as TM mentioned is the best way if you can afford it to leave extra in your account maybe a different wallet to use as a back up rather than keep withdrawing and depositing, whereby making questions be asked about what your doing with the money you take out, ie gambling elsewhere at better odds or arbing etc

Regarding Single Customer View, im unsure as to the full ins and outs, but i did read a piece again based on deposits whereby a code will be applied to funds leaving a bank account to a gambling firm and as such it would therefore be easy to limit deposits of more than an amount each month, also rather than bookies being in charge of this it would be independently run by some sort of ombudsman.
Apparently after a certain figure is reached on these codes the transaction would be refused.

Does SCV bring in anything where they would limit bet size does anyone know or are we still thinking deposits ?
Report thurnscoe thunder December 7, 2021 12:51 PM GMT
freddiewilliams07 Dec 21 12:49Joined: 12 Mar 06 | Topic/replies: 8,536 | Blogger: freddiewilliams's blog
If I deposit 100k into his savings.....he shows his savings account balance to them.....will he get increase........

I doubt it
I think they ask for so many months statements and then theyll ask why it was deposited and will probably check into that
Report freddiewilliams December 7, 2021 12:52 PM GMT
Loads on ere withdraw every evening.....and deposit next morning
Report freddiewilliams December 7, 2021 12:54 PM GMT
Wait several months......then produce last 3
Report freddiewilliams December 7, 2021 12:54 PM GMT
Just say house sale
Report thurnscoe thunder December 7, 2021 1:03 PM GMT
Suppose depends how much they look into it
They could ask for proof of sale etc

Regarding depositing Ive no idea which patterns they look for.
Suppose its better if you deposit regular but not varying amounts that differ by wide margins, although I wouldnt in this climate be depositing and then withdrawing on a daily basis to put it back in again the day after.
Some firms although they go on net deposits do look at the total deposits and issues have arisen through that
I do know generic emails get sent out regarding 'larger than normal deposit' on Betfair if you dont deposit regular and when you do its a large amount, thatll no doubt get the 1.01 and 1000 players as TM says among others who rarely lose
Report The Management December 7, 2021 1:03 PM GMT
That's the critical question tt (imo) - who would be in charge of SCV? - if it's the books or somebody that is far too close to the books (I include the GC in that) then it's doomed from a punters perspective and will be abused for all kinds of hidden agendas. Surely the books sole role should be data input - but they should never be given access to seeing the whole picture i.e. the "single view"

However - It's like every gambling issue (and coincidentally every horse racing issue) - everybody involved is either ignorant of the detailed facts (in this case the government, the Gambling Commission, the Information Commissioner) or they have a vested (financial or emotional) interest in making the waters deliberately cloudy (in this case the books, the racing Post and also the Anti-brigade).

As ever (with regards to gambling and horse racing) none of that makes for a sensible balance solution that will work. i.e. Help degenerate addicts without infringing on others.
Report freddiewilliams December 7, 2021 1:21 PM GMT
He put the 20k into crypto account......only asked for name and date of birth
Report dustybin December 7, 2021 1:21 PM GMT
What happens if I withdraw cash?

Your Budget is based on your net deposits for the month, which means that depositing will reduce the amount available and withdrawing will increase it. If you’ve set up a deposit limit as well, your Budget won’t ever go above the amount you set. Your Budget gets reset at the end of that month.


Potentially everyone irrespective of lifetime P/L could fall foul of this calculation, saved perhaps by having a decent credit score.
Have a bad month, which even the best on here are entitled to have and you will get appraised.
Report thurnscoe thunder December 7, 2021 1:27 PM GMT
Was also wondering if Horse racing is kept separate due to funding of the industry, which is a distinct possibility how on earth can they police deposits centrally ?
Report freddiewilliams December 7, 2021 1:28 PM GMT
Credit rating dropped big time by being removed from electoral role
Report thurnscoe thunder December 7, 2021 1:39 PM GMT
My reading of that Dusty is its no more than a deposit limit in itself then
Also your right its going to catch people out at some point if a larger than normal deposit is required unless at BFs end they have something overriding certain accounts making them exempt from being caught.
Maybe people on PC or the personalised PC rate payers

It all points to leaving enough in to have a hit and be able to transfer the loss over from another wallet to avoid the undesirable scrutiny of having to go through sending financial documentation in and having it poured over just to have a bet.

What bugs me most is the people they are trying to help will be the ones who evade them by betting elsewhere such as bookmakers on the high street, or doing it through other users accounts
You wont be able to stop an addict doing it unless they dont have funds in the 1st place, where you can stop others doing it by having too tight regulations

Ive no problem with trying to help a gambling addict I understand what devastating effects it can have, but affordability checks online simply wont stop them, although it will slow the speed of the loss down, but in the end they will lose the same amount over a longer period of time
Report thurnscoe thunder December 7, 2021 1:43 PM GMT
Freddie as long as you have credit in some form and make regular payments doesnt that boost your rating.
Im not 100% with the laws of credit ratings
I do know you shouldnt apply for a few loans, mortgages etc at the same time as banks see youve applied and wonder have you taken it out or been refused for some reason
Report dustybin December 7, 2021 1:47 PM GMT
TT
Correct regarding having a ring fenced sum in a kind of wallet to iron out the need to deposit, and possibly the critera regarding PC payers.
But Im not of the belief that BF have any sentiment regarding losers, thats for the hand wringing state brow beaten by emotional types like that awful welsh woman.
They certainly will use their own metrics to arrive at a business descision and fold it into the auspices of customer protection in lieu of regulation.
Report racing6699 December 7, 2021 1:52 PM GMT
TM no my name doesn't start with L. SCV wont solve any of this for addicts. Addicts don't need Betfair. they don't need UKGC or UKGC bookies. They can bet offshore if they want a bet. Nothing to stop them. lots of ewallets vouchers and many other payment methods. Most accept cards. They will have no protection of course, but nobody seems to understand this at the UKGC. For bigger players, they can use BTC sportsbooks like nitrogen sports. Or BTC to deposit into asian bookmakers. Nitrogen has bigger volume than most Uk books on sports. The UKGC are simply clueless and i really think once there is a bit of momentum in the black/grey mkt - the sharper more educated punters will move there quite quickly as they will get better service, odds, and wont have to deal with the likes of BF and UKGC bureaucracy. Plus its a myth you get protection betting at UKGC licenced bookmakers. The issues most of us have had over the years has left us with zero trust over bookmakers in Uk. Most have the most ridiculous terms and conditions regards bonuses, big wins etc.. and the UKGC have never stood up for the punter ever! Obviously traders on BF cant move to other options yet as there isnt really anything now. The holy grail would be decentralised exchange using btc where it was one global mkt for betting
Report thurnscoe thunder December 7, 2021 1:53 PM GMT
The bit about gambling addiction and affordability checks wasnt aimed at Betfair, thats just my thoughts on the whole debacle of whats being looked at by the Government in the Gambling Review.
The white paper was due to be out this month but i think it looks like itll be pushed into January.
So a few weeks yet before we find out what theyve decided to try and get through
Report Rigsby December 7, 2021 2:26 PM GMT
Re Credit Checks
In my business I sometimes have to do credit checks on people. I have to have their permission to do this, not least because a marker is placed that a credit check has been done. My question, therefore, is have we in the small print given BF permission to do a credit check on us?
Report Latalomne December 7, 2021 2:32 PM GMT
They talk about soft credit checks, which, as I understand it, do not leave such markers?
Report The Management December 7, 2021 2:39 PM GMT
Rigsby - I think credit checks come in different flavours and strengths. I think their blurb states "soft credit check" - I have no idea exactly what that means but suspect it covers off your question (above) regarding permission.
Report The Management December 7, 2021 2:39 PM GMT
forum delay! Cry

What lats said!
Report screaming from beneaththewaves December 7, 2021 3:06 PM GMT
Freddie as long as you have credit in some form and make regular payments doesnt that boost your rating.

Yes. Which isn't much use for those of us who are full-time, with no job or other income. We can't obtain credit anyway. Back to square one.

By the way, I'd be wary of schemes to make it look as though you have income when you in reality don't. It would be an open goal for the Revenue. Don't rely on the details not somehow finding their way to HMRC.
Report Latalomne December 7, 2021 3:12 PM GMT
The idea that you can't get credit as a full-timer isn't strictly true, Screaming.  All manner of things count towards your credit score from being registered to vote, to mobile phone contracts etc.  Granted, you might be asked to pay a higher rate of interest than someone in full-time employment, but it is most certainly doable.
Report thurnscoe thunder December 7, 2021 3:12 PM GMT
Think a soft credit check shows outstanding debt and credit you have even if it might not have taken up ie credit card limits, also if youre upto date on payments, ccjs etc. Some companies also i believe are just interested in a credit score.
As said above it doesnt leave a mark, but it does seem intrusive for a bet, when your money is deposited.
I personally dont think this should be down to a bookies to decide if the money youve deposited you can afford and its yours.
If its credit money ie loans or credit card withdrawl then the bank can decide you are using the money borrowed for activities you didnt declare and stop deposits, if not they are obviously happy with it or are passing responsibility likewise if its money youve deposited in the bank from sales or a friend then checks for laundering should already be satisfied.
In all honesty everything should be ok before the money hits the bookmakers account.
Likewise if an individual has £10 or even £3k he should be able to do what he likes with it as an adult, as long as its legit.
Report dustybin December 7, 2021 3:14 PM GMT
A credit score doesnt require a job, it just needs you to show you pay your bills.

If you are full time on here then unless you are hand to mouth you have likely built up some capital, which is enough.

I recall years ago claiming some benefit or other and they worked out an 'implied income' based on capital...it was a rate nobody could earn in this reality but was used by the state to argue you have a virtual income...whats good for the goose..
Report thurnscoe thunder December 7, 2021 3:15 PM GMT
I dont know any fulltimer who doesnt have some sort of credit facility, Im not saying there arent any, be an interesting poll
Report roggrain December 7, 2021 3:25 PM GMT
We are not people any more. We are numbers on data bases held by Government and Corporations and our

futures will be determined by algorithms. Tick all the boxes or you're out of luck. Even medical care

is being dispensed in this way now. If you aren't 'average' you will be regarded as a freak and of no

use to society, in fact, 'un-mutual'.
Report Latalomne December 7, 2021 3:26 PM GMT
I was always told it was healthy to keep a few modest forms of credit (ie actually keep a balance on it).  So long as you're responsible with it, it certainly won't do your credit score any harm.
Report screaming from beneaththewaves December 7, 2021 3:28 PM GMT
Fair enough. I've got my mobile bill on credit. And I suppose being allowed to pay the electric and the council tax by monthly direct debits counts as well. And there's a 3 grand overdraft facility on the current account, which I never asked for.

I hadn't really thought about it that way.
Report Latalomne December 7, 2021 3:29 PM GMT
You can do a free credit score check on Experian or similar.  You might be pleasantly surprised.  I know I was  Happy
Report screaming from beneaththewaves December 7, 2021 3:33 PM GMT
And then there's the 0% facility to defer payments to three monthly instalments on Paypal. Even the satellite telly, when you think about it.

I'm a right credit junkie without realizing it. How did that happen? I wouldn't lend me a bean if it were the other way round.
Report duffy December 7, 2021 3:36 PM GMT
Your Budget is based on your net deposits for the month, which means that depositing will reduce the amount available and withdrawing will increase it.

Not all about deposits then, withdrawing works to reset your available amount then and is a nod by them that a withdrawn profit, as it should.

Could do with it spanning over a longer period rather than just a month but this clearly states that withdrawing money should not be a concern.

What isn't clear though is if say your limit was 500 and you withdrew a grand, would it reset to zero and only let you put 500 back in say or would you have an extra 500 to play with as you'd be in the black to the tune of 500.
Report dustybin December 7, 2021 3:49 PM GMT
Most people have decent credit scores unless they miss payments for things.

Infact I remember there was an episode on BBC Moneybox years ago that went into detail that on many occasion it isnt having a bad credit rating that rejects some application for services from cards and banks, it was actually having too good a rating, since they arn't interested in you if you dont make them any money through interest.
Report BigDeal December 7, 2021 5:14 PM GMT
dusty, that's not quite correct. If I pay off my credit card in full monthly, and you just meet the minimum payment, as long as we both do it by the due date, we receive the same, positive, rating for that month.
Report howard December 7, 2021 5:30 PM GMT
yeah I once read you get a bad rating if you've never had credit cos you haven't shown you pay up.
Report Senyatta December 7, 2021 5:37 PM GMT
up about 25k after 11 months in a row profit. had a below par september/october and lost about 2k was getting emails every day and phone calls. cut to 1000 per month and had to sit out half the month and not been able to bet normally since. it's a real pain for me as i would often stick between 5 and 10k in before a big event
Report MasterPapa December 7, 2021 5:39 PM GMT
Thurnscoe Thunders, post at 15.12 hits the nail on the head when he says,

'if an individual has £10 or £3k he should be able to do what he likes with it as an adult'

BF should certainly not be restricting deposits of anyone with a lifetime profit on here.
Report casemoney December 7, 2021 5:57 PM GMT
BF should certainly not be restricting deposits of anyone with a lifetime profit on here.

What about people with Life Time losses surely they should not have been allowed to place bets ? If its not

affordable now how can it have been affordable previously ?
Report dave1357 December 7, 2021 6:03 PM GMT
^there was a poker game in stockport casino a couple of decades ago. The whale in the game had half a dozen chip shops. Soon after he sold his last shop the game broke up.
Report ballyregan December 7, 2021 6:17 PM GMT
if you watch all the starsports pro punter stories nearly all the great pro punters have hit trouble at some stage and had to borrow money to get there bankrolls going
just think if this affordability check thing was in force then lives would be different and that starsport series would have had zero pro punters on it.
harry findlay would have had to get a job in lidl and steve lewis hamilton would have become a bartender.
Report EastLower Gooner December 7, 2021 6:59 PM GMT
We should strike…sign up as many users as we can and pick a race where no one bets.

Just completely dead market. The King George would be my suggestion.

And plan further strikes with the threat of extending to an a whole card…like Cheltenham Day 1.

You guys have more power than you realise.
Report duffy December 7, 2021 7:13 PM GMT
So much for responsible gambling, on the exchange there is a tool available to see your P&L, but on the Sportsbok and Casino games??? NADA

Wonder why????
Report MasterPapa December 7, 2021 7:15 PM GMT
Senyata, Your post at 17.37 pretty much mirrors my experience except I have been limited to £100 per month till I send in proof I can afford to deposit more.I too had a shocking run throughout october and into early november and made three deposits, these were the first deposits since january though and have withdrawn over three times more than I have deposited this year.

This will be my eighth consecutive year in profit, yet they want to know where my money comes from.

Still waiting for a phone call from them to discuss all this further after contacting them on live chat and been told I would get one, that was 5 days ago.

Going to give it another day or so before I brave the live chat experience again to see what happened to the return phone call I was promised.
Report duffy December 7, 2021 7:30 PM GMT
Can't be a coincidence that we keep hearing that profitable customers seem to be targeted in this, probably from the exchange.

I wonder how many doing their dough on the SB and casino games are getting this treatment.

At the end of the day BF can show to whoever that they are looking like they are towing the line without revealing that they are targeting the wrong people and finally killing off the exchange to boot, this must feel like manna from heaven to them.
Report Latalomne December 7, 2021 8:04 PM GMT
Profitable but not (seemingly) PC-paying.
Report duffy December 7, 2021 8:53 PM GMT
I'm one of those...not been carrying out any covert mission to avoid it though, just hover around 22% at all times
Report MasterPapa December 7, 2021 9:25 PM GMT
Me Too.
Report JJmbe December 8, 2021 6:39 AM GMT

Dec 7, 2021 -- 7:13PM, duffy wrote:


So much for responsible gambling, on the exchange there is a tool available to see your P&L, but on the Sportsbok and Casino games??? NADAWonder why????


I asked that exact question on the live chat, you can guess the rest ,i will refer it to someone and they will be in touch.

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