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carrot1960
21 Oct 21 13:50
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Date Joined: 05 Feb 08
| Topic/replies: 15,465 | Blogger: carrot1960's blog
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10112999/Horseracing-fan-83-refused-2-400-winnings-little-mistake-betting-slip.html#newcomment
Pause Switch to Standard View Punter, 83, slams Paddy Power for...
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Report tantpis October 21, 2021 1:57 PM BST
Just writing numbers down for horses is asking for trouble,if he had  written the names even if the wrong time was written he would have been paid out.I can understand him writing numbers if he was placing the bet just before the off,but he had plenty of time to write the names down for a bet like that.
Report penzance October 21, 2021 2:04 PM BST
he says one thing,they another.For £2k you'd
think a firm as big as them would payout.
Will say one thing though,that betting slip
is all over the shop.
Report saddo October 21, 2021 2:05 PM BST
2.4k? Must be a slow news day.
Report themightymac October 21, 2021 2:07 PM BST
Alan Turing would have trouble deciphering that line.
Report GLASGOWCALLING October 21, 2021 2:09 PM BST
   Mr Keane said: 'I go in Paddy Power as they say the Irish firms are the best.


   LaughGrin
Report stewarts rise October 21, 2021 2:12 PM BST
Absolute scribble wasn't it, hard to make out what bet actually was, but figured out it's 5 £4 singles, a £1 super Yankee and a £5 acc making £51 staked, but his last selection came 2nd anyway in the 2.10 Hexham, presume put him on a NR for the 4.10 Chepstow.
Sure he meant 4.05 Chep but as only 4.10 race was at Newmarket you can see why they did it, ultimately if you're staking £51 It's up to you to make the bet legible.
Report sparrow October 21, 2021 2:22 PM BST
Many years ago I worked as a trainee settler checking the previous days betting slips for any settling mistake and was amazed how careless punters can be in writing out their slips. You would think a large proportion had never been educated past the age of 8 years old.
Report dave1357 October 21, 2021 2:22 PM BST
Sure he meant 4.05 Chep but as only 4.10 race was at Newmarket you can see why they did it

but there is what looks like 11/2 written beside that race, which is consistent with no3 at chepstow, but no the no 3 at newmarket.

The fairyhouse time is also wrong but has odds beside it consistent with the no 1 on that race.

So if those odds were written by the counter staff then he should be paid in full.
Report themightymac October 21, 2021 2:44 PM BST
Feel sorry for the guy but it`s his own fault. If he had wrote names, he would have been paid out despite having wrong time by a couple of minutes. Don`t understand why punters just write numbers.
Report SlippyBlue October 21, 2021 2:50 PM BST
Admittedly it's a dogs dinner of a slip but for the sake of a couple of grand and all the negative publicity it has generated you'd think they would have paid the bloke in full.
Report ballyregan October 21, 2021 3:52 PM BST
goodluck 83 year gentleman I hope he gets every penny paddy power should show abit of humility
it is big money for the 83 year old and a dot in the ocean for paddy
mightymac is correct though numbers on bets are an accident waiting to happen I know a chap who did this and got involved in a wrong horse co ck up a few years back
Report saddo October 21, 2021 3:55 PM BST
Will staff still write out bets for old uns and illiterates? They used to do round here.
Report The Management October 21, 2021 4:01 PM BST
The staff are mostly illiterates these days Cry
Report carrot1960 October 21, 2021 4:32 PM BST
Stewarts rise  , it's actually 5 x  £4 win singles a 50p super yankee , 5 x  £2.50  4 timers and a £5   acc   £50.50 stake


and the best part is both of the number three horses were around 10/1 so he had no chance of claiming either at 11/2
Report Cider October 21, 2021 4:47 PM BST
Poorly written for sure, but it is evidently Chep. And completely implausible to have been considered Newm.
Report dave1357 October 21, 2021 4:57 PM BST
well one or other of them had what looks like 11/2 written beside them - the newmarket horse was never that price, but the average price on betfair was 8.8 for the chepstow one.  The whole issue is resolved by revealing who wrote the prices on the slip.
Report Fashion Fever October 21, 2021 5:10 PM BST
surely paddy will pay this out when someone high up hears about it
Report slickster October 21, 2021 5:18 PM BST
Someone "high up" in powers lol. Ur having a laugh. They're more illiterate than the shop staff ffs. Clueless.
Report wroughtironronn October 21, 2021 5:27 PM BST
Bookies are used to scammers trying to put ambiguous dog bets on with scribbled numbers - I feel sorry for the shop staff in shops who get daily abuse, and will no doubt have got a dose from this punter. He might be over 80 but he still has the strength to kick off in the shop hoping to get a windfall from his error
Report the dealer October 21, 2021 5:32 PM BST
Surely the amount shouldn't come in to it. If its £2k or £20k the judgement has to be the same
Report The Management October 21, 2021 5:34 PM BST
I cannot be @rsed to read the Daily Mail - so haven't looked at the bet - but I thought that to take a price on a horse you had to name the horse i.e. you don't get a price on a selection that is Numbered only.
Report Movewiththetimes October 21, 2021 5:48 PM BST
A 83 year old betting £51 on a single betting slip claiming he really needs the winnings for a holiday with his son, gambling commission be all over this for responsible gambling Sad
Report dave1357 October 21, 2021 5:51 PM BST
yeah I thought that when he said every bookie in the area knows me...
Report Movewiththetimes October 21, 2021 5:52 PM BST
Any bookie managers know average stake per betting slips, been 25 years since I did it was around £5-£10 per slip depending what shop it were.
Report BigDeal October 21, 2021 5:56 PM BST
I only bet online so don't know the protocols but surely if the shop is prepared to accept ambiguity on the betting slip, they should pay up?
Report BigDeal October 21, 2021 5:56 PM BST
I only bet online so don't know the protocols but surely if the shop is prepared to accept ambiguity on the betting slip, they should pay up?
Report Storm Alert October 21, 2021 6:58 PM BST
Don't have much for the punter tbh, the slip was a scrawling mess and find it hard to believe PP would not have switched it back to Chepstow an hour before racing started if asked.

Surely the equitable way to deal with it is to split the bets 50/50 between Chepstow and Newmarket?
Report carrot1960 October 21, 2021 8:08 PM BST
silksPaint The Dream (GB) 7, b g 11-1 (Mr David Brace)
ts+ Rated 147
Brian Boru (GB) - Vineuil (FR)(Muhtathir (GB))
Breeder - Mr David Brace
(Morning price: 8/1 10/1 11/1 9/1 10/1 11/1 10/1 8/1)
(Ring price: 10/1 9/1 17/2 8/1 15/2) SP 15/2

F M O'BrienConnor BraceTote Win £7.70 Place £2.30
prominent, pressed leader from 5 out, pushed along before 2 out, led last, stayed on well, won
Report dave1357 October 21, 2021 8:39 PM BST
the fact remains that there are prices on the slip that don't accord with SP - so who put them there and when?
Report glentoby October 21, 2021 9:36 PM BST
The prices are not going to match with SP are they dave,the bet was placed before racing? I always try and side with the punter if there is doubt which is disputable,however the only dispute appears to be who is telling the truth.If the punter did ask for the bet to be changed before racing and they refused,then they were within their rights.However he states they informed him they had changed one selection to Nmkt and he wanted it changed to Chep which they refused.

On balance it seems unlikely they would have changed any of his selections off their own back and even more unlikely they would have refused a change had they already made one before he went back? Apart from the messy slip there has never been an issue about taking a price on numbered selections as long as the time and meeting are clear.It looks like he wrote the prices himself which would usually result in the cashier circling the prices after checking them?

Over a decade since I was in a betting shop so things may have changed?
Report glentoby October 21, 2021 9:36 PM BST
The prices are not going to match with SP are they dave,the bet was placed before racing? I always try and side with the punter if there is doubt which is disputable,however the only dispute appears to be who is telling the truth.If the punter did ask for the bet to be changed before racing and they refused,then they were within their rights.However he states they informed him they had changed one selection to Nmkt and he wanted it changed to Chep which they refused.

On balance it seems unlikely they would have changed any of his selections off their own back and even more unlikely they would have refused a change had they already made one before he went back? Apart from the messy slip there has never been an issue about taking a price on numbered selections as long as the time and meeting are clear.It looks like he wrote the prices himself which would usually result in the cashier circling the prices after checking them?

Over a decade since I was in a betting shop so things may have changed?
Report dave1357 October 21, 2021 10:18 PM BST
glentoby • October 21, 2021 9:36 PM BST
The prices are not going to match with SP are they dave,the bet was placed before racing?


well obviously, that's the point. The price beside the disputed selection is much more likely to indicate chep than newm.
Report dave1357 October 21, 2021 10:24 PM BST
If there was a debate, surely the price would have been amended?
Report glentoby October 21, 2021 10:33 PM BST
I get your point dave,the prices could have given an indication of the intended race? Actually looking at the slip again it looks like some of the prices are crossed out.Not a leg to stand on as far as the slip and claimed explanations go imvho?
Report dave1357 October 21, 2021 10:38 PM BST
have no idea what the crosses are or even wtf the bet means, my point is simply that there are prices that seem to have been written at the time of the bet, so there must have been a discussion about them and the horses the pertain to.
Report glentoby October 21, 2021 10:43 PM BST
Agreed dave,thats why it appears he wrote them himself whether before he handed the bet over or added later.Had he handed it over with prices written on it you would expect the cashier to have circled them,standard practice?
Report Ramruma October 21, 2021 10:59 PM BST
From Paddy Power's (online) rules:-

16. Unclear instructions
The onus is on the customer to clearly communicate their intended bet.

Where a customer's bet instructions are ambiguous, Paddy Power reserves the right to settle the bet as we interpret it.

If a price is taken then this will determine the customers intended selection.

We also reserve the right to split the stakes equally between the various possibilities in the case of an unclear instruction.

https://www.paddypower.com/aboutUs/Betting.Rules/

Now, maybe the price was not "taken" if he wrote it himself, but even so 11/2 does suggest the Chepstow race, and in any case, the following line suggests splitting stakes on ambiguous selections like this.
Report carrot1960 October 21, 2021 11:31 PM BST
The horse at Chepstow was never less than 15/2 and that was it's starting price
Report Tattcorner October 22, 2021 12:35 AM BST
So he overstaked by 50p...does that come into the equation?
Report Ramruma October 22, 2021 1:58 AM BST
Well, it proves the guy's a halfwit but even halfwits are entitled to fair treatment.

On the other hand, this line of the Mail's report will not help him: 'As a result of this my blood pressure shot through the roof. I put on a bit of a show at the bookmakers.' Depending what that actually means by putting on a bit of a show, sympathy might evaporate.

And is he trying it on? This is not the first time. He does say, 'I have been paid out before when they have said "we knew what you wanted to bet on"'.

I'm not even sure, and it is a terrible photo, that he has not mistimed the two Irish races as well.

But as others have said, PP should do the right thing and either settle on the Chepstow race or split stakes between Chepstow and Newmarket.
Report driver2 October 22, 2021 3:30 AM BST
I'm sure he's trying it on and PP and their staff know it.
Report Lee Ho Fooks October 22, 2021 8:54 AM BST
Absolute scribble/just writing numbers down etc etc places the "blame" on the 83 year old. I assume that for many years his bookie have been accepting his almost indecipherable bets (£50 a day/week?) in good faith. It seems to me that the only time they are questioning them is when they have to give him something back
Report dave1357 October 22, 2021 8:56 AM BST
carrot1960 • October 21, 2021 11:31 PM BST
The horse at Chepstow was never less than 15/2 and that was it's starting price


You posted something above - was that paddy power's prices? If it was the general market, I can't see how you can make such an emphatic statement about PP's early prices.
Report stewarty b October 22, 2021 9:09 AM BST
I walked into a hillys about 4 years ago fancying two. I knew they would go of FAV  so I just wrote down FAV and the time and the meetings.


She said to me....'do you want the early prices'. I had to explain to her that wasn't allowed. She was well pissed, after all she was the assistant manager.
Report Ramruma October 22, 2021 9:35 AM BST
@Lee Ho Fooks -- yes, and that is the drawback of the whole betting system. Punters hand over a bit of paper that only gets checked after the results are known, at which point the bookie decides whether they want to accept it or not.

But the bet is written very badly. Never mind that he has ignored the column headings at the top. Why, after writing instructions for the singles, acca and 4-folds underneath his selections, does he then turn the slip round and write the superyankee sideways?

And from what the Mail reported in the OP's link, it does not sound like he is a regular in that shop.

BUT it does seem to me he is most likely an honest idiot who has accidentally made it look like an attempted scam.
Report driver2 October 22, 2021 9:38 AM BST
Lee Ho Fooks, can't you see that the bet that the Mail have published is a receipt that the punter has written on, which makes it look indecipherable. Bookmakers don't cheat punters in the manner that you suggest, they would void a bet that couldn't be read and refund the stake.
Report ballyregan October 22, 2021 9:45 AM BST
not been in a bookies for a while do all bookmakers have cctv now I see they have when people go rogue and smash up fobts on youtube.
if they do refer to cctv if no cctv refer to shop rotor on day communicate with person who took bets ask him or her if the gentleman was being genuine here and if they rememember him or the bets if they do pay him out.
normally when writing proces on bets i also think shop staff should put initial on bets top show whose done it imo .
the staff may not be able to remember but worth trying
if paddy does not try this imo he is just welching as end of the day the correct result of this incident is what matters not that his writing of numbers is pants.
Report impossible123 October 22, 2021 9:52 AM BST
I used to go to a bookie regualrly who was also a friend. He said there're gangs who'd repeatedly visit unsuspecting bookies (until they're sussed) putting on very late (just as the races were going off) usually forecast (sometimes tricast) combo bets on doggies with dodgy/unclear handwriting and instructors often with an accomplice as a distractor. The bets would always be placed with a junior, and not manager.

Is that true? If so, has that ever happened to anyone here who's or was one a bookie in the high street?
Report ballyregan October 22, 2021 9:56 AM BST
the pencilman was a famous case impossible
https://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/news/liverpool-news/professional-gambler-pen...
Report the dealer October 22, 2021 9:59 AM BST
Loads of them still making a living from slow count or ambitious bets. Probably easier than ever kniw because of the high turn over of staff.
Report chavman October 22, 2021 10:06 AM BST
Jason Haddigan uses the same method,he’s just got out after a stretch in Wales for it…he was Twitter comedy gold last year
Report ballyregan October 22, 2021 10:08 AM BST
yes seen him chavman he wrote a book on beating the  bookies and travelled around the world drinking and pulling dollybirds
Report the dealer October 22, 2021 10:17 AM BST
I've heard some horror stories with the amounts they have got away with, without spending a pound.
Report impossible123 October 22, 2021 10:20 AM BST
Seriously. These people have no shame. Maybe managers concerned could contemplate locking them in until coppers arrived to video-record, take a few stills and finger printing.
Report the dealer October 22, 2021 10:28 AM BST
They target young inexperienced staff. Before they know whats happened, they are off with a grand om bets that basically could be anything or from bets they haven't even paid for.
Report Lee Ho Fooks October 22, 2021 11:32 AM BST
driver2

I am playing devil's advocate (with, I thought, some justification) to the throwaway "he's trying it on" comments.

I'd really like to know what the answer to "how many years has his bookie been accepting his almost indecipherable bets?" is, perhaps someone could answer that question?
Report brassneck October 22, 2021 12:03 PM BST
its called publicity,and Paddy has it down to a fine art,he gets the Paddy Power empire mentioned for free,and as paddy will say himself"there is no such thing as bad publicity,publicity is publicity,and this thread is part of the free publicityLaughLaughLaugh
Report brassneck October 22, 2021 12:12 PM BST
example,WEE JOEY WHO HAS RECOVERED FROM COVID KEPT HIS LUCK GOING YESTERDAY WHEN HE PLACED A 10 CENTS LUCKY 15 IN A PADDY POWER SHOP THAT NETTED HIM 14 GRAND PROFIT.LaughLaughLaughLaughLaugh."WHEN THE DOCTOR ASKED JOEY HOW HE WAS ,JOEY REPLIED I NEVER FELT BETTER IN ALL MY LIFE TIME.THANKS TO PADDY POWER.LaughLaughLaughLaughLaugh
Report brassneck October 22, 2021 12:23 PM BST
Joey who went on holiday last week to Turkey placed his bet in INSTANT BULL city center Paddy Power shop.Devil
Report Storm Alert October 22, 2021 2:50 PM BST
In the 60's / 70's plenty of chancers trying to sneak dog bets past the bookies and the probably the reason bookies used to treat all customers with disdain.

Typically what they would do was present a bet slip with say three bets seconds before dog race was off; for example two small bets and one large on the dog race. Bet went through till and scanner, meanwhile punter fiddling around with money waiting for his mate watching dog race. If dog selected was leading around last bend, got the nod and presented money. If not just walked away leaving novice cashier with slip stamped but not paid for. They used to target novice cashiers as experienced cashiers would not put a slip through without money being handed over at the same time. I guess CCTV has sorted out the cheaters.

In the 80's I used to bet in PTS and the manager used to look after his regular customers. Nowadays it's all about fobt's and all customers treated as mugs.
Report sparrow October 22, 2021 3:05 PM BST
In the shops I used in the past no bets were taken full stop after the commentator announced "hares running".
Report LoyalHoncho October 22, 2021 3:30 PM BST
Like another admirable chap on here I refuse to download the Daily Mail article either so am going on what I have read here.  For me the long and short of it is this.  If a punter can't competently fill out a betting slip after, 60 years of experience - LBO's started operating in 1961 - he doesn;t deserve to be paid out.  He doesn't even deserve to be taken seriously.
Report Storm Alert October 22, 2021 3:33 PM BST
In the betting shops I used the bets were refused after the under orders slip was passed through the scanner, this was normally triggered by the blower announcement but had to be actioned by the cashier. It wasn't uncommon for them to shout "any more bets" before scanning the off slip for horse racing.
Report The Management October 22, 2021 3:52 PM BST
I don't have a lot of sympathy for anybody that can't manage to write out the correct time, the meeting and the name of the selection.

It's a financial transaction ffs! - would he hand over a cheque without filling in the amount or the name of the payee? - or post a letter addressed to Number 7 and expect it to get there?
Report s.kenbo October 22, 2021 4:28 PM BST
Agreed. I’m staggered how difficult some people find it to write out a simple bet. He said he used numbers instead of names because he couldn’t spell half the names of the horses in training. It’s fecking written in every newspaper, all he has to do it copy the name, it’s not difficult!

A mate of mine lost out on over £200k because he fecked his betting slip up. He handed his slip in, the cashier said ‘wow, £230k’. The traders looked at it and noticed he’d made a costly mistake. He got paid £23k!
Report Macintoshmatty October 22, 2021 4:33 PM BST
Knew of the Pencil man when I worked in betting shops but still don't understand how he worked the scam, did he alter the top copy say in a dog race, a small trap 1 could have been changed into another number I suppose, surely like the 'slow counter' a manager would quickly see what was going on?
Report Alices October 22, 2021 5:27 PM BST
I owned an Indy in the 90s and one day the Pencil man came in, kept my eye on him as it was an estate shop and we didnt have mant strangers, didnt have a camera for the beys either. So when he put a bet on i looked at it immediately. One bet i looked at had changed when i came to settle it, it now haf a straight tricast for a fiver up. Asked the cashier what had happened and he had said he,d made a mistake and she gave him the slip back. Told him he wasnt getting paid and to come back tomorrow when the non existent camera had been checked, bet would have come to about a grand, never came back and never saw him again.
Luckily for me i worked for Joes for 10 years previously and it was during the days of training courses so knew a lot about the scams that were about.
Report .Marksman. October 23, 2021 10:04 AM BST
I'm surprised they paid him anything.  He is a blatant scammer:  Writing card numbers against non-existent races, which means he could claim it was on the race time, or the meeting, which ever suits.  (In fact if you go by the meeting, he has several chances.)  If there were a greyhound race close to the time that fitted, he might have tried to claim on that too, as betting on trap numbers is common.
If it were up to me, I would have given him no more than his stake back and banned him.
Report Bentring October 23, 2021 10:22 AM BST
Well said Baldy
Report Blackrock October 23, 2021 11:12 AM BST
There were some ingenious ways fraudsters tried to turn over the bookies in days gone by. But they all use the same modus operandi and thats confusion.

Had a few come into my shop many moons ago, and if a slip had writing all over it , with arrows pointing towards certain numbers, you were fairly sure it was a scammer.

The punter tended to wait till off time giving you very little time to study the bet. 'hares running mate -put it through quick'. In all cases such as this i returned the slip having not taken the bet, saying its indecipherable. They'd swear at me and usually leave the premises.

Its not difficult to write out your own bet and make instructions clear. Ive had many Chinese customers who can hardly speak English but copy their sels from the papers almost perfectly.
Report Macintoshmatty October 23, 2021 11:28 AM BST
So Alices, he got the top copy back after the race was run so he could rub out and change his selections??
I take it the cashier took the bet from your pile and that you were absent at the time?
Surely that couldn't work all the time

Just interested as I had a friend who worked for one of the big bookies in security and he told me about the pencil man going round his shops, must have been in the late eighties, said how clever he was but wouldn't tell me exactly what he was doing. I used to manage shops but think I'd left at the time. Surprised he didn't tell me as I never looked to take advantage of shops, not even nicking prices, not in my nature.
Report the.mad.dog.man October 23, 2021 11:48 AM BST
me and my friend used to go round the shops and do forecast doubles 5 dogs in one race and 5 dogs in another race then write down 10 by 10 = 100 forecast doubles bet should have been 20times20=400 only went in shops that had a woman settler they did not have a clue about betting we then went on to rigg the tote place on the horses
Report themightymac October 23, 2021 12:32 PM BST
Yes, scams were so prevalent in the good old days before the arrival of today`s tight security measures with computers, cctv, etc which makes scams now virtually impossible. And the biggest scammers were the betting shop managers and staff who looked upon it as a perk of the job. Easy beer money and the only ones that got caught were the ones who got reckless and greedy. There were so many scams which would go undetected.
Report Storm Alert October 23, 2021 1:08 PM BST
In the great freeze of 86' there was no racing for weeks until early March. It was so bad with no British or Irish racing my local bookies was sometimes showing Belgium trotting racing. It was madness, horses getting disqualified for running too fast and in some age restricted races the horses all had the same starting letter in their names based on year they were born or registered as far as I can remember.

Q was one of letters so in those age restricted races names mostly began Qu and often very similar Belgium names that meant nothing in English. In my local Joe Jennings loads of wags were writing out Qusquigglesquigglesquiggle and insisting they had backed whatever won. There was a constant argument going on at the counter about this for weeks. It was funny and the bookie a nice old chap was always having a go at the cashier (pretty but dim), for accepting illegible bet slips.
Report themightymac October 23, 2021 1:12 PM BST
LaughLaugh
Report Alices October 23, 2021 1:24 PM BST
Mackintosh Matty,
I took the top copy out of the tray at the till when he put the bet on, had a read of it and put it back, when i took it out to settle it he had asked for it back and changed it.
Report Macintoshmatty October 23, 2021 1:31 PM BST
I remember those trotting races, shop I was in a guy was having fortys on backed a few winners.
Last race he had another 40 on and I settled the bet as a winner but the guy left the shop and dropped the ticket
I'd almost told him we didn't have enough cash to pay him as well but he left straight after the race and never came up to the counter
I went and picked up the ticket, on the back of all his tickets he had put the number of the trotter, it obviously didn't match the name I had settled it had
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