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Whippin Piccadilly
11 Oct 21 15:11
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Date Joined: 02 Mar 07
| Topic/replies: 2,741 | Blogger: Whippin Piccadilly's blog
Original fav backers money goes onto the unraced false fav. When will the Tote bring this bet into the 21st century?
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Report swiftynifty October 11, 2021 4:13 PM BST
what is the 21st century solution?
Report Hayden October 11, 2021 4:17 PM BST
You have to have a runner as non runners can't work , so agree with swifty.

What is the modern day solution ?
Report Whippin Piccadilly October 11, 2021 4:17 PM BST
If you place the bet via a bookmaker. You should at least have the option of a reserve selection box to tick. If you place it via the Tote website you should be able to play it in-running and change a selection before the race off time.

It's just not acceptable in this day and age to have no control over a bet you place.
Report Whippin Piccadilly October 11, 2021 4:21 PM BST
Although a complete redesign of the tote website would be needed. It's a truly awful looking website.
Report swiftynifty October 11, 2021 4:21 PM BST
reserve selection 1 ,reserve selection 2 etc etc, couldn't possibly work, pool numbers would be changing all over the place. I hate the system but unless you go down the South African route of all go through which is also totally unsatisfactory and unfair also, I can't see an obvious solution.
Report Whippin Piccadilly October 11, 2021 4:32 PM BST
Just a box with space to write a double digit no. would suffice. Surely they have the technology to read a number off a slip. Leave it blank and it goes on the fav.
Report swiftynifty October 11, 2021 4:38 PM BST
how many segments of the pie chart would be needed to represent this? if this, if that, if the other, doesn't work for me. You calculate you 've got a minimum of a grand to come. Horse comes out , extra money suddenly appears on your selection, your share suddenly plummets.
Report Whippin Piccadilly October 11, 2021 4:38 PM BST
I don't do them anymore. A non runner that went onto a fav I didn't like cost me 4 figs at this years RA. That was the final straw for me.
Report Mick Sturbs October 11, 2021 4:44 PM BST
How do you now the horse which was a non runner would have been placed? It might have lost
Report Whippin Piccadilly October 11, 2021 4:45 PM BST
So you'd rather your non runner lines went onto the fav every time too? You don't think other players should have choice in case it decreases your potential return? Tongue Out
Report Whippin Piccadilly October 11, 2021 4:46 PM BST
lol go back to sleep Mike!
Report Whippin Piccadilly October 11, 2021 4:46 PM BST
lol Mick!
Report swiftynifty October 11, 2021 4:50 PM BST
Imagine the scenario you've got the 1 remaining line on the third fav. If the fav unplaces you stand to win a small fortune. Fav withdrawn at the start, 28 units suddenly join you on the third favourite. You'd be delighted!
Report Whippin Piccadilly October 11, 2021 4:57 PM BST
So, you don't think punters who paid money should have a right to choose what horse they want in the final leg? What if your horse was a non runner and your line now goes on the fav you don't like? Say you like the new 3rd fav more, you don't want the chance to use this one and will just accept that you're on the fav? Confused
Report swiftynifty October 11, 2021 5:00 PM BST
Everyone knows the rules. Life ain't fair.
Report Whippin Piccadilly October 11, 2021 5:02 PM BST
Hence see my OP! Tongue Out
Report swiftynifty October 11, 2021 5:06 PM BST
WP, to be honest I don't like it either. I've lost plenty of the placepots in the past in leg 6 in similar scenarios where as you say you are cheering on a horse you never selected/wanted. In fact it did actually lead to me to packing them up too! It's just i don't see a better system, I don't like the multiple reserve option for reasons I've mentioned.
Report the dealer October 11, 2021 5:08 PM BST
Aye and when your replacement gets beat and the favourite places you want the rule changed back.

It ain't ideal but I don't think changing selections is viable or right. The rule is there everyone knows it and where some lose other benefit with the large dividend caused by the selection they go on to losing.
Report the dealer October 11, 2021 5:13 PM BST
The first sentence was tongue in cheek by the way before I need to put the tin hat on.



Imo your average place pot player would prefer to leave it as it is, easy to play and simple to understand
Report Whippin Piccadilly October 11, 2021 5:16 PM BST
Aye and when your replacement gets beat and the favourite places you want the rule changed back.

It wouldn't change. Non runners would still go on the fav unless you stipulate another horse. Most people would still play the same way and use the fav but then you'd get bigger pools with people like myself playing again. I'll go back to my OP. It's time punters had a little more control over the bet they place.
Report Whippin Piccadilly October 11, 2021 5:18 PM BST
Like I said, it wouldn't change. It would just attract non players like myself, increase pool sizes and so on.
Report Tattcorner October 11, 2021 5:22 PM BST
WP...it's just that they have to have a tie-breaker that resolves the issue straight away.  I agree it can be cruel to you as you've highlighted, but on other days the rule could make you smile.
You might have the 3rd fav in a 5-runner finale and the hot fav plays up at the start and won't go in.
So it's a 4-runner and you'll be be over the moon if yours comes in first as all the first and second favourite money is down the drain.
Report the dealer October 11, 2021 5:27 PM BST
I doubt the majority of placepot players want more control of the bet and are happy with the way it is.
Report Whippin Piccadilly October 11, 2021 5:34 PM BST
Yeah, more players and bigger pools is a bad thing! I'll leave it there.
Report the dealer October 11, 2021 5:37 PM BST
Would it though, would your small stake bread and butter placepot players be happy with people coming in with their big perms and the ability to change non runners, I'm not so sure but will leave it there as well
Report Whippin Piccadilly October 11, 2021 5:44 PM BST
I didn't suggest you could change perms and stakes. You could replace one non runner.......is it really that hard to understand the point I'm making? The bet would still be the same, any non runners would go on the the fav but you get to write the no. of one reserve horse in a box below each race. Really simple! As an incentive to use the ugly Tote website, if you place the bet there you can change your reserve up to post time (5 min cut-off would probably work best)
Report Whippin Piccadilly October 11, 2021 5:47 PM BST
Personally I would use the reverse box because withdrawal would no doubt come after post time. (Horse not going in the stalls, horse got lose and enjoying himself having a run around the course) that kind of thing.
Report SlippyBlue October 11, 2021 6:03 PM BST
I'm a regular placepot punter, not as much as I used to be but meetings like Ascot, Cheltenham and the like I'll have a good to at it. I'm happy enough as things stand and as someone mentioned earlier sometimes the non runner works in your favour such is the nature of the bet.
Report glentoby October 11, 2021 6:07 PM BST
Good to see you posting slippy,how is your health these days? Better I hope,re pisspot,I agree with the dealer,it aint broke and does not need fixing.
Report SlippyBlue October 11, 2021 6:20 PM BST
I'm doing very well now and that's very kind of you to ask. Last year was all a bit of a blur and I don't remember hardly any of it as I was in a long term coma but all good now I'm happy to report. Thanks and best of luck.
Report glentoby October 11, 2021 6:21 PM BST
Great news slippy,hopefully onwards and upward for you,best of luck also.
Report portmanpark October 11, 2021 8:58 PM BST
the rule is fine as it is..having reserve selections is just about the most stupid idea i have ever heard
Report HallGreenSpy October 11, 2021 9:32 PM BST
Don't understand why anyone would do a placepot these days unless there was a rollover. The place 6 bet with 3665 pays more 90%+ of the time at a guess and also has a cash out option should you need it. (Not for me btw). The non runner issue remains the same but if it is in a later leg, you do have the cash out option if you don't favour the jolly.
Report Whippin Piccadilly October 11, 2021 10:12 PM BST
No it's not "fine as it is" that's why I don't play it. If I want one of my original selections replaced with a reserve, what's it got to do with anyone else playing the bet? If enough favs finished unplaced, it will always be a good divvy. Mugs like yourself Portman who select favs in every race will always ensure there's plenty of mug money in the pot.
Report Whippin Piccadilly October 11, 2021 10:19 PM BST
Because you get decent pools and plenty of mug money in them at the big meetings,HGS.
Report Whippin Piccadilly October 11, 2021 10:28 PM BST
Say if I get a race down to selections priced at 7/1, 9/1 & 10/1. And because the perm is getting up there, I decide to only go with the 7/1 & 10/1. One of them is pulled out and it goes on the fav. Both the fav and my selection finish out the places and the 9/1 I left out snatches a place. Why can't I put my third choice in a reserve box. Why does it have to go on a selection you don't want? What business is it to other punters playing the bet that I use a reserve rather than the fav?
Report Regbutler October 11, 2021 10:55 PM BST
I would consider myself a medium placepot player..
50 pounds or so every weekday, 100 pounds on Saturday
For the last 30 years
A lot of my decent wins have been where a last race favourite has been withdrawn and the units skewed accordingly
Report acey deucy October 11, 2021 10:58 PM BST
So tell me Reg have you made a profit?....I doubt it very much but i might be wrong.
Report acey deucy October 11, 2021 10:58 PM BST
So tell me Reg have you made a profit?....I doubt it very much but i might be wrong.
Report acey deucy October 11, 2021 10:58 PM BST
So tell me Reg have you made a profit?....I doubt it very much but i might be wrong.
Report acey deucy October 11, 2021 10:58 PM BST
So tell me Reg have you made a profit?....I doubt it very much but i might be wrong.
Report acey deucy October 11, 2021 10:59 PM BST
WTF?Shocked
Report Regbutler October 11, 2021 10:59 PM BST
Should have said....
Keep it as it is, and factor in the possiblities
All, imo of course
Report Regbutler October 11, 2021 11:05 PM BST
Acey... I wouldn't like to say definitely yes to making a profit but I would have given up long ago if I was losing regularly
I would say I'm small in front or level at worse
The t0te site with 10% extra divis and cashback makes the bet more attractive at the mo
Report acey deucy October 11, 2021 11:06 PM BST
I have been doing placepots every single week for the past 30 plus years and i would leave it as it is.I do wish the tote would market the bet a bit better.
Report acey deucy October 11, 2021 11:11 PM BST
Glad to hear it Reg i have had some nice wins over the years but overall i would say i am down...I love the placepot but i would not recommend it to anybody as a way of making money.
Report Whippin Piccadilly October 11, 2021 11:14 PM BST
You can still play it as is. You wouldn't have to use the reserve box, just leave it blank. People who back fav's in Placepot's will leave it as is and if the fav becomes a noner they won't mind if it goes on the new fav. But what about punters like me? I'd like to have a choice of selecting another "value" priced selection. It would have almost no impact on the divvy to have a reserve box. In fact you'd get bigger pools.
Report Regbutler October 11, 2021 11:14 PM BST
Acey, agree, my main gripe..
The 28% takeout is ridiculous imo, which should render the bet impossible to win long term but other factors help
Tomorrow at hereford, 3 out of 6 races have win only ppot legs
Could make a good divi
Report acey deucy October 11, 2021 11:16 PM BST
Yes the take out is a fackin disgrace Reg.
Report Whippin Piccadilly October 11, 2021 11:25 PM BST
I laid out a fair sum on one at RA and a horse called Instinctive Move was W/D at the start I had him and another horse in the first leg. My 3rd choice who I decided to leave out came in second (Go Bears Go). The new line went on an AOB beast, which I did't fancy at all, that came in 4th...of course! If I could have used a reserve in that race it would have had no impact on the divvy because they were all roughly the same price and the fav wasn't a hot fav by any means. Even if it was, I want to be able to choose a reserve, its my money and my bet.

To answer Mick, if my original selection wasn't W/D and came nowhere then that's on me!
Report Regbutler October 11, 2021 11:32 PM BST
WP...
I get your concerns about the bet regarding non runners...
But, the logistics of having a second choice and integrating that between shop and online players seems hard to implement, imo
Also, as I've already said, I love non runners, especially favs, and trying to factor the possibility in
Report stewarty b October 12, 2021 3:50 AM BST
I haven't read all the thread but the only solution for the OP would be to have his bet cancelled  if his horse is withdrawn, unless he has two or more selections in that particular race but that will never happen.


I can see no alternative to the rules as they stand. You pays your money..
Report Ramruma October 12, 2021 5:13 AM BST
It should be relatively easy to have a reserve along the lines suggested but what happens when two horses are withdrawn? How many reserves can there be?

But any reserve system would create another problem, making it hard for punters to hedge in the last couple of races, because they will not be able to tell where the money from late withdrawals is going, what effect it will have on the dividend, and how they should hedge.
Report Ramruma October 12, 2021 5:20 AM BST
Perhaps if the Tote throws some money at its tech nerds, these difficulties can be overcome, but I doubt it will bring in many more players.

Cutting the takeout would be better, but I doubt Tote's management has the imagination or vision.
Report Whippin Piccadilly October 12, 2021 6:56 AM BST
One reserve, ram. Its simply an alternative to the your line(s) going onto the the fav.

I put forward a scenario which is the equivalent of what happens in a Placepot. You've done your form study and you've identified a fav that you feel is beatable and you even think it won't get placed. You login to your betfair account to lay said horse in the place market. You click on lay and enter your stake. But the bet won't accept when you click confirm. You keep trying but it won't accept it. You then click on back just to check if betfair is working OK. You click confirm and the bet accepts! You try to get out of the bet but the same thing happens and you can't lay this fav you don't like and instead you have a bet on it to place! The suspend monkey is no help either...He forgets to put the market in play at the off!


Now tell me. Is this acceptable?
Report Whippin Piccadilly October 12, 2021 7:18 AM BST
You shouldn't hedge until you get to the last race and it's worth a significant amount. It would be easy to calculate because of so few tickets left.
Report Tattcorner October 12, 2021 11:05 AM BST
I fully understand the placepot but never played the Colossus Place 6 on B365.

So if it's not a pool bet, is it calculated purely on the starting price like a roll-up?  And the cash-out is on the final leg?
Sorry, but I'm a complete novice on playing this.

One thing I know is that the unit stake is £1, 50p, 20p or 10p so not so attractive to the 1p players on Tote.
Report HallGreenSpy October 12, 2021 11:26 AM BST
Think you can cash out from half way but deffo after leg 4 if not. Yes the 1p is not an option but any multiple of 10p is possible if you just reuse the selections and bet again. Not sure how it is worked out but is usually a better dividend than the placepot unless there is a rollover. Even found they paid more at the festival.
Report Tattcorner October 12, 2021 6:39 PM BST
Thanks for that HGS...sorry, I missed your earlier post when you said cash-out isn't available to you with B365 (doesn't seem fair).
Looks like it is a pool bet and today's dividends with Tote first were :

Huntingdon 81.10 / 130.99
Leicester 194.70 / 205.99
Hereford 37.40 / 26.21

Looked for Punchestown but looks like they don't do it in Ireland.
Report HallGreenSpy October 12, 2021 7:30 PM BST
Sorry for not being clearer tatt. Cashout is available with b365 but it's just not for me as a personal choice, not a restriction.
Report glentoby October 12, 2021 8:28 PM BST
Apologies for abandoning the thread when agreeing with The Dealer. A simple solution is to calculate the dividend and your share and then lay in the place meerkat on here for what you think you can/will accept?

Seemple solution imvho?
Report saxon farm October 12, 2021 8:56 PM BST
Totally agree glentoby.
Report swiftynifty October 12, 2021 9:02 PM BST
Simple if it's a 4 runner race in leg 6. Anything but if it's a big field and an unknown return.
Report JML October 13, 2021 1:00 PM BST
Cash out will be at least a 20% discount.That will be on top of the original taske out!!!

Not the type of value I'd go for.

With 1p lines and a 10% boost the Tote website offers the best deal.

Not a good deal but definately the best of the two.
Report Regbutler October 13, 2021 11:01 PM BST
Went to Hereford races yesterday
Did my placepots online and in shop before I got there, but couldn't resist doing one at the track as I had 20 minutes to waste before the first
Some firm called Britbet now running the Tote outlets at the track, and the betting shop btw
Anyway, not the usual lottery style slips to fill out but just a plain piece of paper with up to 4 numbers per each of the 6 legs to enter
You then hand it to the cashier who had to enter it manually then hand it back to you to check they had done it correctly
Was OK yesterday as smallish crowd but imagine a busy Cheltenham meeting with long queues?
Plus, I often want to put 6 runners in a race like the coral cup
Cashier bloke said had nothing but complaints about it
Worse still, apparently this system is coming into the shops soon
Report Ramruma October 14, 2021 3:11 AM BST
If you want to work for Britbet at the Cheltenham Festival and experience for yourself how bad their systems are, there's £10 an hour jobs advertised on their website.

As a Customer Experience Assistant, you will be part of the britbet team selling ‘Tote’ branded bets at our racecourses.

As well as working at Cheltenham and the surrounding area, you can also work further afield if you wish for large festivals such as The Grand National. Travel payments and, where appropriate, overnight accommodation will be provided when you work away from your local area.


https://britbet.com/working-at-britbet/jobs/
Report stewarty b October 14, 2021 3:14 AM BST
What you doing up at this hour luvvie?
Report Hibore October 14, 2021 8:20 AM BST
A very interesting thread. I’ve a friend who is a professional punter and his favourite bet is the placepot. I’ve know him since the late 80’s and he’s shared his strategy and rules with me many times. He’s a good judge of false favourites but his biggest wins are where horses are taken out, withdrawn, ground changes etc. He would have kittens if a reserve selection was allowed. He is betting against how us punters stake as well as the results. It’s very interesting how he selects meetings and staking plans.

If you are a recreational punter the thought of your withdrawn selection going onto the favourite isn’t great and will turn people off the bet. I can’t see the Tote changing anything soon. The pros see this as an advantage rather than a negative.
Report BARROWBOY October 14, 2021 6:38 PM BST
That’s exactly right hibore,iv done pots successfully over the last few years & the key to big divs is anticipating non runners in your selection process.getting the fav or new fav turned over is manna from heaven when 8 runner fields are turned into 2 places & 5 runner fields into win only.
Report Regbutler October 14, 2021 10:10 PM BST
Last 2 posts regarding the thoughts of hibore's friend and Barrowboy sum up the placepot dilemna perfectly, imo
I was trying to say the same thing earlier in the thread...
I will say, look at the running up units from leg to leg, it is a real eye opener as to how to "avoid the crowd"
Report GLASGOWCALLING October 14, 2021 10:13 PM BST
Predicting non runners !!!  Wow ... Do you play the lottery. ??
Report Regbutler October 14, 2021 10:20 PM BST
Glasgow, anticipating instead of predicting is what's been said regarding non runner favs

Although, to give an example...
First race Ascot Saturday has trueshan v stradivarius again
During the summer you could have predicted when one or the other was gonna be a non runner due to the ground
Report BARROWBOY October 14, 2021 10:30 PM BST
You can take a horse to water,reg,but you can’t make him drink.
Report GLASGOWCALLING October 14, 2021 10:38 PM BST
Not that many non runners after racing commences imo.
Report glentoby October 15, 2021 12:32 PM BST
Lol GC,you said what I was thinking,does anticipating non runners include ones own selections which you would assume are no less immune to the vagaries of the weather etc? Mystic Meg gave up the practice and bought horses instead!!Wink
Report Hibore October 15, 2021 4:05 PM BST
It is not unusual for horses, especially high profile ones to become non runners after the first or second races due to the ground. Didn’t Skelton take all his runners out a meeting earlier this week…which included an even money fav ? If ground deteriorates throughout a meeting due to heavy rain fields can be decimated…nothing unusual in that but can play havoc in pool betting.
Report The Management October 15, 2021 4:15 PM BST
Agree - there doesn't even need to be a change in the weather - it happens plenty after the first race, when connections realise that the Clerk of the Course is a con-artist!
Report Whippin Piccadilly October 15, 2021 5:09 PM BST
Predicting non runners? Can you predict when a horse doesn't go in the stalls or breaks though the front of them or when a horse gets lose?
Report Whippin Piccadilly October 15, 2021 5:10 PM BST
*loose
Report Hibore October 15, 2021 5:51 PM BST
There is a difference between predicting and anticipating non runners. Information from stables isn’t uncommon that you can take advantage of.

To answer your point though….horses will always get loose, won’t go into the stalls or break through the stalls, these can be viewed as bonuses depending on the price, race type and stable involved if the race result works out well with your selections. If you only typically put 2 or 3 max selections per race you will be effected more than someone with 12.

I’ve posted on here before that I once had 17 out of 20 runners in a novice hurdle and went out. Laugh beat that…..
That’s why I’m not a professional punter !
Report glentoby October 15, 2021 6:01 PM BST
Would not matter how much stable info you got hibore,how then do you predict how the other horses in a race will run including the fav which presumable the crux of the matter,never mind the other 5 races?
Report Whippin Piccadilly October 15, 2021 6:44 PM BST
17 lines in one race? lol
Report acey deucy October 15, 2021 6:46 PM BST
That really does take the biscuit ffs...And not one placed.LaughLaughLaughLaugh
Report acey deucy October 15, 2021 6:48 PM BST
I must have read that wrong shirley?Laugh
Report glentoby October 15, 2021 6:50 PM BST
He only had the info for 17!!! Are you going to do the wildcard tomorrow acey?
Report acey deucy October 15, 2021 6:52 PM BST
Yes i have one lined up glen does that mean i have two selections?
Report glentoby October 15, 2021 6:53 PM BST
Yes acey,post them anytime before 1450 hrs mate.
Report glentoby October 15, 2021 6:54 PM BST
P.S don't forget to factor in possible non runners!!!Wink
Report acey deucy October 15, 2021 6:58 PM BST
I got a biggy to put us back in contention buddy.....Mums the word.Wink
Report glentoby October 15, 2021 6:59 PM BST
CoolWink
Report glentoby October 15, 2021 6:59 PM BST
CoolWink
Report Hibore October 15, 2021 10:16 PM BST
Peter Scu was on a dodgy Martin Pipe evens shot that had refused to race the last twice. I stupidly thought it would do the same and left it out with the two 150/1+ rags and you know the rest. But I did win two huge pots a few months later.

If you mock multiple selections…maybe you are the ones that need to rethink your strategy. 2’s and 3’s per race fills the pockets of the pros. How many pots do you actually Collect ?  50%, 25% or less ?
Report Hibore October 16, 2021 8:08 AM BST
Glen, to answer your question about about stable information. I don’t want to get involved too much for obvious reasons but the person I’m speaking about gets paid information about a leading stable from a senior source based there. Mostly what’s going well and what not quite firing. As long as the info is good the payments continue.
I get calls occasionally to say horse A isn’t at his best so back horse B from joe bloggs stable. So far no horse A’s have won and some were odds on and not all horse B win but
it’s valuable information for all the bets they place, including placepots.

I’m sure the above is rife and people on here have similar arrangements.

I’ll give you one tip for doing perm placepots whatever stake you choose. Start at the 6th leg and work backwards.
Report Regbutler October 16, 2021 11:42 AM BST
Hibore, my strategy is similar in that I don't start with leg 1 and work through to leg 6
I mix them up and take each race separately
Report portmanpark October 16, 2021 11:52 AM BST
that south african guy used to have the field running for him in his placepots not sure it was in non hcaps though
Report portmanpark October 16, 2021 11:53 AM BST
regbutler....do you ever banker anything
Report roggrain October 16, 2021 4:12 PM BST
Their new website is a dog's breakfast. Took me 5 minutes to find a way through the maze to get to

the Ascot Placepot 6th leg amounts on each runner. Why did they change it? The old site was easy to

negotiate.
Report DonegalPrince October 17, 2021 5:02 PM BST
https://www.totepoolliveinfo.com/

Rograin
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