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Celtic warrior
07 Oct 21 14:11
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Date Joined: 18 Jul 02
| Topic/replies: 1,670 | Blogger: Celtic warrior's blog
In light of my recent negative experiences with bookmakers(being gubbed many times for winning small sums), I thought I would ask everyone’s opinions. The Betfair exchange is the perfect business model of its time. It is low cost to run, with cutting edge technology. Every backer obtains the best prices 98% of the time. The system is super fast which allows in running betting. It also has a fantastic back office to update your position within minutes .
Against this are the mainstream bookmakers. They employ huge marketing budgets, over all media platforms, especially tv and the racing post to mask the fact that racing is a zero sum game and as such it cannot afford to let any punters win in the long run. Thus it employs introductory offers and follow on free bets to try and entice the only gamblers they are really interested in, namely high spending problem gamblers. They use horse racing and soccer as loss leaders to lure them onto the casino games. These games have been shown to ruin lives, especially seen by FOBTS in the past.
All other punters, recreational or not are now excluded by the cutting edge algorithms that they all employ. These track every bet instantaneously. That polite email then comes in and that’s it. Finished.
Yet, how many times do you hear of this reality on tv or in the racing post. Never.
Following this, the sad reality is that racecourses cannot survive without bookmaker assistance through the levy/sponsorship. Whether this is because there is too much racing and/or way too many racecourses open I don’t know. Whenever Jo punter ‘goes racing’ she/he is fleeced on drink and food which makes matters worse.
How would I change the system. Well I would ban all types of non skills based gambling on the internet (slots, bingo etc) for a start. Secondly a charter of rights from bookmakers that they will accept business up to a certain limit. Afterall racing is not perfectly solvable or predictable and never will.
Yes, I would cut the racing calendar by about 30%, all at the bottom end. If there are no opportunities for class 6 horses, then so beit. Better for the long term of the whole breed.
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Report tantpis October 7, 2021 2:36 PM BST
£80-£100 for two of us to go racing nowadays,admission,food and fuel to get there.I used to go racing on a regular basis,I now only go maybe once a year.Some of the facilities at some racecourses is disgraceful and catering prices are extortionate.
Report the dealer October 7, 2021 2:36 PM BST
So the 90% plus, who enjoy and play slots and bingo etc responsibly, wouldn't be able to do so because of a minority that can't.
Report jamesdean October 7, 2021 2:43 PM BST
Is it true that 90% plus who play slots play them responsibly?

Most I've seen play them personally, seem to have a problem
Report the dealer October 7, 2021 2:49 PM BST
From what I've seen, I would say 90%+ play responsibly, based on working in the industry for 41 years.

I hate fobts and online slots but imo banning them is totally wrong. Why shouldn't responsible people not ge allowed to enjoy them ?
Report the dealer October 7, 2021 2:50 PM BST
Or spend there money in them.
Report Celtic warrior October 7, 2021 2:53 PM BST
everyone should be weened off slots. no chance of winning money over the long term. it ruins lives and has to be regulated against. sorry but thats my view. its an addiction
Report the dealer October 7, 2021 2:53 PM BST
For someone who will pay nearly £2k a year for a share and training fees in what will likely be a class 6 horse, why shouldn't I be allowed to do that celtic?
One of many who are prepared to do so with the likely hood of nowt back but for the enjoyment of going racing
Report jamesdean October 7, 2021 2:54 PM BST
Honestly? Do you work in a bookies and genuinely think only 1 in ten that play the slot machines/FOBTS
have an issue? I'm surprised by that

The FOBTS are designed to get people addicted. If only 1 in ten who play them have a problem
theyve not done their job properly.
Report the dealer October 7, 2021 2:54 PM BST
What form of gambling does the majority win long term ?
Report Celtic warrior October 7, 2021 2:55 PM BST
betting on slots and FOBTs should be treated like smoking. help given to stop!

a great start would be banning bookies from doing it online.

then they say it subsidises horse racing/football....no it doesnt!
Report the dealer October 7, 2021 2:58 PM BST
I would say fobts are designed to win money, the majority play with no addiction.

Where do you stop? Betting is suffering now because of proff of incomes etc soon you won't be able to spend your own money on what you want.
Report the dealer October 7, 2021 2:59 PM BST
Because I or you don't like fobts or slots, what right have we to dictate what others should do
Report the dealer October 7, 2021 3:00 PM BST
I think online casinos need a massive over haul but not taken away
Report Celtic warrior October 7, 2021 3:15 PM BST
Because I don't do heroin doesn't mean I don't have the right to stop it. Again through helping people
Report sparrow October 7, 2021 3:18 PM BST
Celtic warrior 07 Oct 21 13:11   
Yes, I would cut the racing calendar by about 30%, all at the bottom end. If there are no opportunities for class 6 horses, then so beit. Better for the long term of the whole breed.




Many people spend thousands of pounds keeping Lower class horses in training which helps to keep thousands people employed and many of us enjoy this class of racing. I don't care for jump racing but I appreciate the fact that many others do.
Report Celtic warrior October 7, 2021 3:22 PM BST
Okay. My bad. Bit harsh about clas 6.

However just look at hong kong and australia. Much bigger prize money
Report Celtic warrior October 7, 2021 3:30 PM BST
Seems to me the whole racing industry needs to
Define who its true customer really is. I think its bookmakers not punters actually
Report the dealer October 7, 2021 3:31 PM BST
a guy comes into a shop and loses £500 shuffle punting horses and dogs, a guy comes in and loses £500 playing slots. No difference imo

With regards your heroin comparison, the majority of peope who play slots are not addicts, I doubt the majority who take heroin are not addicts.

Agree 100% the system is bust, the people running it aren't fit for purpose, the gambling commission is a money making quango and too many people have their fingers in an ever decreasing pie. Sadly its a sorry state of affairs, I get we need change, I get bookmakers have played their part in where we are, had they self regulated years ago rather than continuing to bank the cash, we might well be in a far better place now.

Imo though banning different forms of gambling isn't the answer
Report the dealer October 7, 2021 3:36 PM BST
JD it's wrong of me to assume that the whole country is the same and because I say 90% from where I live might well be less in many other areas, I do still think the larger majority use them responsibly,
Report Celtic warrior October 7, 2021 3:42 PM BST
Those one arm bandits on bookmaker sites are totally terrifying. I bet loads go on them when low after drinking and lose a fortune watching the reels lights and jingo music in a trance like state

Next morning they wake to a 50/100/500 pound hole in their finances, which were on credit card or loan shark.

I have never voted tory but their 2 pound foot limit was the best policy ever
Report jamesdean October 7, 2021 3:42 PM BST
On the rare occasion I venture into a bookies these days I would mostly see young men
on them battering the buttons and able to call the numbers whilst the ball was spinning.
Usually swearing under their breath
Or women with their shopping bags at their feet firing the notes in. I worked in a bookies
behind the counter (using sis pics for in running) and it was the same.

Hardly ever seen someone stick a quid or two in, lose, then walk away not a care in the world.
It was usually the same faces which wouldnt suggest moderate use. 

You probably live in a more affluent area than me though Sad
Report Celtic warrior October 7, 2021 3:43 PM BST
Fbot limit
Report hulk23 October 7, 2021 4:02 PM BST
Why shouldn't responsible people not ge allowed to enjoy them ?

Why shouldn't responsible people not ge allowed to have a few quid on a horse without getting an email telling them to foxtrot oscar ... (but you can still play the slots)
Report the dealer October 7, 2021 4:05 PM BST
Don't disagree with that hulk
Report the dealer October 7, 2021 4:05 PM BST
Still doesn't mean imo they should ban slits
Report the dealer October 7, 2021 4:06 PM BST
Slots
Report the dealer October 7, 2021 4:06 PM BST
Hardly affluent JD
Report Celtic warrior October 7, 2021 4:31 PM BST
I am talking slots cos there is no long term chance of winning. Zero. Its basically theft

Horses soccer sports are different because there is skill involved, so to me they are fair.

However I do also realise that they are a zero sum game too. So as bookmakers must make profits then logically punters cant
Report hulk23 October 7, 2021 4:48 PM BST
not a zero sum game if you're beating the price.  which is why you won't last more than a handful of bets if you do happen to.
Report Rico-Dangleflaps October 7, 2021 4:50 PM BST
i know dozens who do in running..non are winning.

its an addiction.
Report hulk23 October 7, 2021 5:09 PM BST
they're just telling you they're not winning to make you feel better ... Wink
Report mitolo October 7, 2021 5:14 PM BST
i know several who are winning i/r. at home.
Report slickster October 7, 2021 5:14 PM BST
I particularly like the thieves in running betting. For example 85 minutes gone. It's Man City 5-0 Norwich. Its no offers city 500 draw 500 Norwich. Sick sad parasites.
Report slickster October 7, 2021 5:16 PM BST
And the reason it's only 500 and not 50000000000s is because the brainless apes look at betfair, see its 1000 and must never go near the betfair price.
Report Rico-Dangleflaps October 7, 2021 9:46 PM BST
mitolo 07 Oct 21 16:14 
i know several who are winning i/r. at home.

of course..no one loses.
Report screaming from beneaththewaves October 7, 2021 10:33 PM BST
I've owned a horse. She won 2 x class 6, followed by a 3-runner class 5, then another class 6. What would I have had to do if class 6 had been banned? Shot her? And consoled myself that it was "for the good of the breed"?

Also, how is it possible to ban online slots and bingo? We don't have a world government able to do that, thank goodness (yet).

Just desist from demanding things are banned, please. There are quite enough people out there already, demanding that anything to do with horse racing and gambling is banned, without us handing them more ammunition.
Report penzance October 7, 2021 10:50 PM BST
no one knows how good a horse will be when bred.
Most of the class 5 & 6 runners are probably geldings anyway.
They give poor horses a chance.
Report Rico-Dangleflaps October 7, 2021 10:51 PM BST
alcohol,drugs,gambling,filters

i'd ban the lot.
Report screaming from beneaththewaves October 7, 2021 11:04 PM BST
No one actually sets out to breed or own a class-6 horse. Keeping a horse simply costs too much to do that, even with a £500 stallion or a one-man training operation. Even at that level, everybody genuinely believes that their animal could be decent, or they wouldn't spend the thousands of pounds it costs to find out it isn't.

You can't magically stop class-6 horses from existing simply by announcing a ban on races they can win.
Report doantwin2easy October 7, 2021 11:42 PM BST
I'd challenge you on a couple of points Celtic.

1) Racing isn't a zero sum game. The overround ensures the books / layers win over the long term, given a relatively level playing field. Loss leading offers on horse racing would very quickly be scooped back.....on horse racing.

Bookmakers choose to lay "losers only" in racing, because they have other easier revenue streams, as you've pointed out. And perhaps more tenuously, to restrict the arbers. Racing had a monopoly on the UK gambling market, for a very long time. Bookmakers now have a choice.

2) Betfair comes out relatively unscathed in your appraisal but they also, have huge marketing revenues, a heavily promoted sportsbook, and a casino.

And their algorithm (aka bot) is perhaps one of the cleverest of all.
Report Rico-Dangleflaps October 8, 2021 12:18 AM BST
the people that program it are.
Report Celtic warrior October 8, 2021 9:59 AM BST
doantwin2easy,
The reason that I KNOW that Betfair is an amazing product, which I have used exclusively for betting since 2002 as are as follows:
Ability to set you own prices
Ability to lay horses, which for me means the ability to close out bets
A wide variety of extra markets. E.g ‘will racing go ahead’
Really easy betting interface with can be automated for use of excel
Back prices at bsp being better than sp 98% of the time
A lively forum for interaction with fellow punters!
Excellent back office, so you know your position and P&L easily
Good ante post book
In running market, although I don’t use that
And something that is underappreciated until you bet with online bookmakers. Your ‘win’ excludes your stake. Bookmakers include your stake to very craftily and artificially increase your return. I really detest that.
I was bemused when they introduced the sportsbook and casino/slot rubbish. Then I thought, they are a publicly quoted company, so the shareholders would demand that they introduce such a product to increase dividends at the expense of ruining lives. However, I wonder how many people play them. Most Betfair punters are intelligent horseracing fans methinks.
Report Celtic warrior October 8, 2021 10:01 AM BST
doantwin2easy,

'arbers' , thats a joke. have you seen the overrounds on bookmakers sites. they are horrendous, and have definately increased post June 2020. impossible to find an arb. they just look at betfair and add on 2%, probably got a program that does this automatically as i have checked a large number of live prices v betfair and the margin on top is almost exactly the same each time!
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