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duncan idaho
15 Sep 21 17:47
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Date Joined: 08 Mar 03
| Topic/replies: 25,377 | Blogger: duncan idaho's blog
Robbie Wilders- Racing Post

Few regular horseracing bettors have not been affected by stake restrictions in some capacity. If you bet on the sport frequently and have never encountered issues placing a bet I would prescribe a strategy rethink.

Stake limitations are a necessary measure for bookmakers controlling liabilities and not exposing themselves to customers destined to prosper in the long term.

However, they need not disillusion punters. I have landed most of my biggest wins ante-post and although personal restrictions are prevalent for the firms I bet with, there is a trick to get around it.

Take the Richard Hughes-trained Brentford Hope, who I recently backed at a standout 100-1 for the QEII Stakes on Qipco British Champions Day in October.

The strong-travelling quirky son of Camelot can be lethal on a galloping track with juice in the ground, and with regular rider Jamie Spencer excelling on the straight course at Ascot I felt he could pick up the pieces late to hit the frame at a massive price.

I knew it would be impossible to get my full point on each-way at 100-1 in one bet slip. However, I returned to Hills a couple of days later and they laid me some more.

Eventually, over approximately ten days, I had completed my staking. I could rest easy knowing if Brentford Hope springs a major upset I will not rue only having £3.50 each-way on and will be rewarded in line with my points system.

The beauty of the wager is the increments were so trivial they perhaps flew under the radar of the firm’s traders, and Brentford Hope remains backable at three-figure odds with Hills at the time of writing. Use that information as you wish.

Value can often be found in a bet by shopping around
Value can often be found in a bet by shopping around
Mark Harvey

Exercise a modicum of patience and you will eventually get your full stake on at (hopefully) the price you seek, with bookmakers stretching their parameters as market liquidity increases.

Betfair Sportsbook and Paddy Power’s amalgamation in 2016 and gradual morphing into two almost identical platforms is also excellent news for punters.

In 99 times out of 100 their odds and place terms are in unison, with the most noticeable differential in the respective interfaces being one is gold and one is green.

Through my own experience it seems the two firms offer the chance to strike the same ante-post wager 24 hours after the first bet has been placed.

This uniform pricing approach means you can in theory speed up the staking process two-fold. I was restricted to £8.30 each-way on Aidan O’Brien’s unbeaten juvenile Luxembourg for the Royal Lodge at Newmarket this month at 12-1 with both firms, although I was theoretically able to get my cash on twice as quickly.

These examples focus on ante-post betting, but similar sentiments apply to backing horses the day before a race. It is worth returning on raceday to top up your initial stake if you have been knocked back previously.

You have to be in it to win it, though, and it never ceases to amaze me when I speak to bettors who admit to only investing with one firm.

Creating new accounts is merely a mundane administrative task. It takes little brain power and is a fundamental procedure if you strive to find value through discrepancies between bookmaker opinion.

If you solely bet online with Betfred and a horse you like is trading at 8-1 with that firm but 10-1 or bigger elsewhere, you are directly weakening your bottom line due to laziness and incomprehensible blind loyalty.

I understand a significant number of punters consider themselves casual followers of the sport and fear becoming consumed by the pursuit of churning out a profit.

However, at the very least it is worth making the effort to set up multiple accounts, keeping money in each and not resorting to placing poor-value bets.

It is not even hard work – it is smart work. If you are reading this in the knowledge you only bet with one company online I hope my words might trigger a change in philosophy.



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Report Gaze733 September 15, 2021 5:57 PM BST
That's why I only bet on the exchange, no need to waste time with clown bookies.
Report ballyregan September 15, 2021 5:59 PM BST
Gaze733 is shrewd one to watch
Report slickster September 15, 2021 6:10 PM BST
This Robbie Wilders sounds shrewd. So shrewd he thinks the QEII is run on the STRAIGHT mile!!!! Thats all you need to know about him.
Report swiftynifty September 15, 2021 6:11 PM BST
£8.30 e/w at 12/1, really, why bother. More chance it doesn't run. If it runs and has halved in price then have twice on, back where you started, Ante-post is dead.
Report Deptford September 15, 2021 6:41 PM BST
What a prize koont.
Report HallGreenSpy September 15, 2021 6:46 PM BST
Laugh
Report screaming from beneaththewaves September 15, 2021 7:03 PM BST
It's taken forty years, but finally racing journalism has finished its downhill journey, all the way from Richard Baerlein ("Now is the time to bet like men") to ... this.

And they wonder why nobody buys the paper any more.
Report elise September 15, 2021 7:13 PM BST
it's akin to Viz ... i've been going to my local william hill to get 100 on my national fancy, so far i've been 85 times and i have managed to get £8.50 on, just another 915 visits to fit in  before april.... thank you racing post
Report chavman September 15, 2021 7:13 PM BST
wigs,moustaches and frocks far more effective imo
Report elise September 15, 2021 7:14 PM BST
this is about betting chav not your grinder profile
Report penzance September 15, 2021 7:15 PM BST
the QEII Stks is run on the straight mile.
Report saddo September 15, 2021 7:17 PM BST
elise 15 Sep 21 18:13 
it's akin to Viz

........................

lmao, it is Laugh
Report slickster September 15, 2021 7:44 PM BST
Penzance, I see they have changed it from the round course to the straight mile. Used to always be on the round course. Do you know when they changed it?
Report penzance September 15, 2021 7:49 PM BST
when Frankel won 2011.
Report slickster September 15, 2021 7:55 PM BST
Thanks. I clearly wasn't paying attention for the last decade!
Report CLYDEBANK29 September 15, 2021 7:55 PM BST
I've read plenty of bolloxx on here, but those RP articles take the prize.
Report cloone river September 15, 2021 8:15 PM BST
Betfair Sportsbook and Paddy Power’s amalgamation in 2016 and gradual morphing into two almost identical platforms is also excellent news for punters.
Probably one of the worst things that happened to punters in the last 20 years.
Report mrcombustible September 15, 2021 8:20 PM BST
After reading this article I don't know what to say or think/ Speechless
Report cloone river September 15, 2021 9:22 PM BST
Stake limitations are a necessary measure for bookmakers controlling liabilities and not exposing themselves to customers destined to prosper in the long term.

However, they need not disillusion punters. I have landed most of my biggest wins ante-post and although personal restrictions are prevalent for the firms I bet with, there is a trick to get around it.
You couldn"t make it up.
Report chavman September 15, 2021 9:35 PM BST
did he get paid for writing that total and utter bowlarks? Cry
Report parispike September 15, 2021 9:49 PM BST
screaming has nailed it.

The journey is complete. The Rancid has sunk as low as it can go. Or has it?
Report doantwin2easy September 15, 2021 9:57 PM BST
have I read this right. took 10 days to get £3.50 e/w on?
Report devilsadvocate September 15, 2021 10:01 PM BST
The problem is the RP is so beholden to to its paymasters the Bookmakers that it only scribes what seems to the novice to be a serious edge. For
those of us have been around the block a few times at this gambling lark the idea of nowadays not getting £10 each way  at 12/1 ante post if presented to us 20 years ago
would seem too preposterous to be true.
Report saddo September 15, 2021 10:03 PM BST
chavman 15 Sep 21 20:35 
did he get paid for writing that total and utter bowlarks?

............................


Aye, the bookies had a whip round.
Report doantwin2easy September 15, 2021 10:13 PM BST
I'm not a bookmaker, nor an employee of one - but even I know that in years gone by, the high street firms made a large majority of their profits from high rollers, on phone and internet. They don't give a flying fuscia about the hoi polloi placing their little value bets, other than the fact that they don't want their trousers pulled down by the arbers, or the faces.
Report GEORGE.B September 15, 2021 10:18 PM BST
bit tricky to spot the 'faces' nowadays cuz they're all wearing face nappies
Report CLYDEBANK29 September 15, 2021 10:21 PM BST
the idea of nowadays not getting £10 each way  at 12/1 ante post if presented to us 20 years ago

£10 ew 20 years ago would be £17.60 ew today

have I read this right. took 10 days to get £3.50 e/w on?

think he's saying it took 10 days to get £17.50 ew on (£3.50 ew every 2 days ffs) so 10 days to get the equivalent of £10 ew in 2001
Report doantwin2easy September 15, 2021 10:26 PM BST
cheers Clyde, i wouldn't get out of bed for less than £18 e/w - even at a ton to one. i mean you might hit one once in a blue moon. but you can't trade your position for any significant profit or make any life changing money if it hits. not meaningful punting of any sort and certainly not worthy of the press.
Report CLYDEBANK29 September 15, 2021 10:27 PM BST
I worked as a bookie manager in the late 80s and the permission to lay limits from memory were around £1,500.  That's around £4,500 in today's money.  I know times have changed, but that is a proper perspective
Report doantwin2easy September 15, 2021 10:28 PM BST
bit tricky to spot the 'faces' nowadays cuz they're all wearing face nappies

evening George, been a while...very true.
Report penzance September 15, 2021 10:33 PM BST
wonder if thats his £2 @130 waiting to be matched.
Report ItsMeSwaddle September 15, 2021 10:38 PM BST
WALOFS - see if they reply.
Report CLYDEBANK29 September 15, 2021 10:45 PM BST
It's very easy when you last worked for a wage 19 years ago to forget the current real value of money.  I adjust previous annual figures for inflation to give me perspective, and also to make me feel better. It always goes up!
Report grayhawk September 16, 2021 12:00 PM BST
I know it's easy to knock the Racing Post nowadays but it really is staggering that this found it's way into print.....
Report parispike September 16, 2021 3:16 PM BST
It's easy to knock the Rancid Post precisely because of this garbage - with the tripe this boy spouts and the sepia tinted look back at the past, the adverts, the 6 different tipsters each selecting something different in a 7 runner race, the bookmaker friendly agenda there is every reason to avoid it.
Report ItsMeSwaddle September 16, 2021 3:30 PM BST
Ive actually got a slightly diff stance to last night. Fair play to him for trying his best to come up with a solution to tackle our absolutely farcical bookmaking industry. Its better than bookmaker PR coming out saying weve taken 10k on this and 40k on that, YES you probably have but no doubt they are a loser and youve laid under the machine.
Report parispike September 16, 2021 3:41 PM BST
How about him, as a RP writer, writing a piece highlighting "our absolutely farcical bookmaking industry" and lobbying for it to be on the front page?
Report boingingbaggie September 16, 2021 3:41 PM BST
Complete and utter utter utter bar locks

Racing Post my absolute Rs

Tw@ts
Report freddiewilliams September 16, 2021 3:43 PM BST
Walofs .....
Report freddiewilliams September 16, 2021 3:45 PM BST
Fair play my ar£e swaddle
Report geoff m September 16, 2021 3:49 PM BST
He must have been p!ssing himself laughing as he penned that garbage.
Report ItsMeSwaddle September 16, 2021 4:17 PM BST
In an ideal world he would do all of the above, infact, I hope it does, too much gravy would be spilt though sorry.
Report geordie1956 September 16, 2021 4:32 PM BST
in the next article he'll be telling us how you can win the jackpot on the lottery if you persevere with it
Report CLYDEBANK29 September 16, 2021 5:44 PM BST
I can only think that they are both straight out of school/university and this new normal is all they know.

Harking back to when I was a betting shop manager, the average stake per bet was between £4 and £10, depending on the shop.  That's £12 - £30 in today's money and that was the average.  To think that the max bet these guys are talking about is below the old average of casual punters.  I can't talk about horses now because I stopped betting on them at all seriously in 2004, but I see the same thing with other sports or events.  Unless you are betting on football it's very hard to get much on at all with a bookmaker.  I backed Ronnie Baker at 8/1 with Dafabet for the 100m.  It was a new account and the max bet was £21.  I followed up with £4 at 50/1 (again the max) on Josh Kerr in the 1500m.  I also followed up with £35 at 7/1 on Ronnie Baker with Quinnbet (again a new account and again the max).  They used the same odds feed as Dafabet.  The £21 had forced them to cut the odds to 7/1. Ronnie Baker wasn't listed on Betfair and there was no exchange market for the 1500m.  I tried later with a major bookie through a friend at 6/1 (in my mind I thought around 5/1 was more like it) and he was offered £3.33.  This is the Blue Riband event of the Olympic Games and his account was a clean account.  The bets with Dafabet and Quinnbet were the last bets I had with them.  They limited me to under £1. 

By comparison, in 2007, I walked into a high street bookie and had £500 at 5/1 on Jamaica in the relay at the 2007 World Championship just like that.
Report EastLower Gooner September 16, 2021 6:25 PM BST
Am I the only one who reviewed Brentford NoHope’s form after reading this?
Report kavvie September 16, 2021 7:06 PM BST
on threads like this i often see bookies or bookies sympathisers  tut tutting  arbers..is there any difference in this and what the bookies do but its called hedging?  and if a bookie is happy to take a bet why do they care what the punter does ? its no skin off their nose? same as a bookie taking 500 at 5/4 and laying back 400 of it at 7/4 on machine?
Report EastLower Gooner September 16, 2021 7:18 PM BST
Still my best day ever was the day we had 2 betfair sites and no one realised you could bet on one and lay off on another.
Report Ramruma September 17, 2021 3:23 AM BST
@kavvie -- Hills (or possibly 888) has 1,400 shops. If they lay just £1 to a single punter in each shop they will have taken £1,400 and won't be able to arb it back on here at a bigger price because there is not the liquidity until shortly before the race.

You are right about on-course bookmakers but that is a separate problem.

Re arbers. The trouble from the bookies' point of view is (a) it probably does mean their odds are too big, and (b) there are lots of them because everyone who looks can see that Ladbrokes are out of line -- it is not just you trying to get on, and (c) arbers are unlikely to lose it back over the next few races, or play in them at all.

The trouble for punters is not that a few shrewdies (and arbers) can't bet in thousands, it is that even £10 casual punters get caught in the crossfire and are shut down or heavily restricted. Mainly this is because with FOBTs, online casinos and other random number games, bookies can afford to alienate racing punters. It is a shame, possibly even a scandal, but that is where we are.

So in that context, telling casual, low-staking punters how to get their bets on probably is more useful than tilting at windmills.

And @CLYDEBANK29 probably is right that the younger post hacks probably never knew any different. If you were punting in the freewheeling 1980s you've probably already claimed your old person's bus pass.
Report clayfield1 September 17, 2021 10:17 AM BST
Part of the problem is that all or most of the small independent firms have been bought out by what was the big 3 or if you like the big 4, as Ramruma says £1 in each shop of Billys is £1400 on say a 20/1 chance, and head office know what the liability is as they can track bets taken and instantly know how the stand. How different things were before all the independents were swallowed up. I remember in the early 70s perhaps 1972,  one of the local guys showing me his betting slip and he had £200 on with a local bookie who had one shop. Makes you wonder if the big firms should be limited to the number of shops that they can have.
Report sparrow September 17, 2021 10:25 AM BST
The first time I ever had a bet referred was at a small independent in Yorkshire. It was 1970 and for £10 on a 5/1 shot so things were already changing then as this could never have happened in the 60s.
Report CLYDEBANK29 September 17, 2021 10:59 AM BST
It's not news that things have got progressively worse since 2002.  For me personally, the biggest changes I noticed were during the Summer/Autumn of 2010 and after the first COVID lockdown.  But it's been downhill consistently in terms of betting opportunities with bookies for 16-20 years and with exchanges since 2008.
Report Jumping-cuckoo-monk September 17, 2021 11:07 AM BST
If you are gunna spend days traipsing round shops putting on shrapnel, my advice is to find a more attractive hobby to pass the time.
Like listening to Dave Y ates audiobooks
Report CLYDEBANK29 September 17, 2021 11:20 AM BST
"If you are gunna spend days traipsing round shops putting on shrapnel, my advice is to find a more attractive hobby to pass the time."

that's sound advice.

Also worth noting re. the original article, that the longer a price remains the same, the less likely it was value originally.  Getting £20ew on something in increments over 10 days (can't believe i'm saying that) is not the same as getting £20ew on day one.  The author should recognise that.  If they don't I'd question their competence, and if they do, then the article is disingenuous by not mentioning it.
Report sparrow September 17, 2021 12:05 PM BST
Jumping-cuckoo-monk 17 Sep 21 10:07 
If you are gunna spend days traipsing round shops putting on shrapnel, my advice is to find a more attractive hobby to pass the time.
Like listening to Dave Y ates audiobooks




Why would you traipse round shops when you can bet on here?  Assuming of course that you are not on PC charges.
Report screaming from beneaththewaves September 17, 2021 3:05 PM BST
Brentford Hope

To back:

26
£10

36
£7

50
£5
______
To lay:

130
£2

Does that answer your question?
Report sparrow September 17, 2021 3:14 PM BST
Brentford Hope?  Is that answer to me?
Report screaming from beneaththewaves September 17, 2021 3:32 PM BST
The article was about the writer's struggle to get a tenner on Brentford Hope at 100/1 in the shops. You asked why you would traipse around the shops instead of using Betfair. There's your answer. You can only get a fiver on here, and at less than half the price.
Report sparrow September 17, 2021 3:34 PM BST
When is this horse running?
Report sparrow September 17, 2021 3:37 PM BST
Oh I see October. Well we will see a little nearer the time but ante post betting is not something I ever bother with.
Report screaming from beneaththewaves September 17, 2021 3:54 PM BST
Very wise then. Ante-post betting doesn't really work when you wait until a little nearer the time.
Report sparrow September 17, 2021 3:58 PM BST
Well if you can make that sort of betting pay then well done to you all.
Report LoyalHoncho September 17, 2021 4:02 PM BST
I agree with you sparrow.  Overall a/p betting is for the birds.  Unless you are very well informed like say, Barry Hills with Frankincense.
Report saddo September 17, 2021 4:16 PM BST
But, for those who want to do so, hearing 'why not bet it on here' -when you simply can't- sounds a little grating I expect.
Report sparrow September 17, 2021 4:24 PM BST
Well saddo, what can't you get on here 5 or 10 minutes before the off?
Report sparrow September 17, 2021 4:25 PM BST
Honcho, would that be for Alec Bird Grin
Report sparrow September 17, 2021 4:30 PM BST
*Alex Bird even
Report jamesdean September 17, 2021 4:32 PM BST
sexist
Report casemoney September 17, 2021 4:37 PM BST
What a prize koont.

Should have been End of thread Laugh

Did Birch help him write the Article , it has Birch all over it .
Report saddo September 17, 2021 4:55 PM BST
sparrow 17 Sep 21 15:24 
Well saddo, what can't you get on here 5 or 10 minutes before the off?

............................................

An ante-post bet at big odds.
Report sparrow September 17, 2021 5:04 PM BST
As I said earlier that would be something I never bother with but good luck to all who find it worthwhile.
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