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Celtic warrior
07 Sep 21 16:12
Date Joined: 18 Jul 02
| Topic/replies: 1,564 | Blogger: Celtic warrior's blog
Thoroughly recommend. This man is eloquent and highly intelligent. Catch on you tube

His book is a great read too. To think fiona Bruce was once a paid runner for him.
Pause Switch to Standard View Luck on Sunday Patrick veitch
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Report 1830 September 7, 2021 5:15 PM BST
Book bored most people I know who have read it sh**less.
Report Celtic warrior September 7, 2021 5:17 PM BST

As a glass is half full man can you recommend any good reads?
Report ballyregan September 7, 2021 5:20 PM BST
the bibles ok but i feel some of the stories are nearly as outlandish as nevo and veitches books tbh
Report fife September 7, 2021 5:44 PM BST
Patrick Veitch may be eloquent and highly intelligent but I must agree with 1830 whereas I Know a lot of people will disagree but I enjoyed Dave Nevison's first book and still re read the Cheltenham Chapters a couple of days before the festivalBlush
Report Ramruma September 7, 2021 5:59 PM BST
OP -- wasn't it Katie Derham not Fiona Bruce? Fiona is a fair bit older. Anyway, is it next Sunday or last Sunday?
Report Ramruma September 7, 2021 6:00 PM BST
Ah, hold on. OP says Youtube so must be an old one.
Report GEORGE.B September 7, 2021 6:17 PM BST
Just bought the jump jockey champions book that has just come out, only looked at the pics so far, so can't comment any further.

Pic from 1972 of a get-together of the champions up to that point, featuring a still fresh-faced Terry Biddlecombe and an incredibly young looking John Francome.
Report GEORGE.B September 7, 2021 6:19 PM BST
Hang on, Francome had still to be champion at that point, I'll have to check that one again.
Report GEORGE.B September 7, 2021 6:28 PM BST
It was apparently taken at a "Champion Jockey's Dinner" at Cheltenham in Novemeber 1972: Davies, Biddlecombe, Mellor, Rimell, Marshall, Thorner, Dowdeswell, Winter, Francome and Brookshaw, all looking extremely well turned out in dinner dress.
Report GLASGOWCALLING September 7, 2021 7:06 PM BST
Are you on the wind up, book was the biggest load of tosh known to man, cant remember who I sent my copy to on here

but he has probably never forgiven me.
Report GLASGOWCALLING September 7, 2021 7:08 PM BST
Peter o sullevans " calling the horses " was a good read imo as was Ken Paynes " The Coup ". Happy
Report EricShunn September 7, 2021 10:23 PM BST
Undoubtedly a successful punter but Mr Veitch is 1000/1 to win a literary award
Report EricShunn September 7, 2021 10:24 PM BST
Nevisons arresting clogging up the pulping presses
Report EricShunn September 7, 2021 10:25 PM BST
^are still...
Report Storm Alert September 8, 2021 8:45 AM BST
GLASGOWCALLING - Are you on the wind up, book was the biggest load of tosh known to man, cant remember who I sent my copy to on here

Completely agree. The early chapters about the dodgy associates after him was vaguely interesting. The rest about how he made money gambling was pure tosh. I was brought it for Christmas and ended up chucking it in the dustbin.

"Hard work and studying form all night night after night". Then catalogued he made fortunes backing unraced two year olds... Many of the races he allegedly won on at fancy ante post prices were conveniently horses that subsequently turned out to be very good but didn't look much good at the time, hence fancy prices. I reviewed several of the race cards as though I was intending to bet and studying form did not pin point them, not even close. Dozens of similar books been written over the years. Quite how this one got so much traction...
Report Celtic warrior September 8, 2021 9:50 AM BST

Don't worry at the age of 55 none of my posts are wind ups!
Some may just show my lack of knowledge
Report know all September 8, 2021 9:59 AM BST
anyone who remembers his tipping 0898 line will know he had to finish it imo there were far better around and he then couldn't compete, there were rumors he was even taking fellow tippers tips as his own lol the myth aint true
Report Dr Crippen September 8, 2021 1:51 PM BST
Veitch made a very good point in that interview.

He said in as many words that if you give out a good system, it immediately loses its value as prices adjust to accommodate it.
I suppose that's why I've never read anything of real value on here in finding winners.

Although I do remember the hunter chase man letting something slip on one occasion.
Report Storm Alert September 8, 2021 2:30 PM BST
Celtic, nothing wrong with recommendations. I was glad to read it to realise I wasn't missing anything.
Report Macintoshmatty September 8, 2021 5:35 PM BST
think Veitch , a bit like Peter O'Sullivan, Alex Bird and probably a lot of other 'judges' got their reputation from inside information rather than being excellent form students

I've read a lot of racing books but don't think I've ever been influenced by any of them to any great extent.

I suppose early on I thought the Simpson ' always back winners' angle ( top weights, easy tracks, turn of foot) was a sound idea
I read Beyer book but never tried to keep time figures( too idle)
I remember Dunwoodys book being a good read, just how totally driven/obsessed he was

I'm reading one of the 'black horse ' books at present, glad I don't bet on American racing
Report Dr Crippen September 8, 2021 6:09 PM BST
They never tell us anything that we don't already know.

Although Potts has very kindly given a hint or two on here.
Report Macintoshmatty September 8, 2021 6:26 PM BST
yes Dr you're right there

Thing is if you've been in the game a long time you've probably got your own way of picking them

I like trainer form but most interested in watching aw video replays and base my picks on them

each to their own though
Report screaming from beneaththewaves September 8, 2021 10:04 PM BST
Crippen and Veitch are right, in that telling the world the precise details of how you did it immediately prevents anyone else doing it the same way. But you can still give an idea of how you need to approach the problem of betting for a living, without necessarily going into detail.

I'm thinking of my favourite racing book - On And Off The Rails, a collection of Brough Scott's Sunday Times columns from the 70s. The way he kept bumping into Dodger McCartney at every gaff track in the winter, all over the country, was an inspiration to me. I desperately wanted to live my life like Dodger - Chepstow one day, Folkestone the next - and if I hadn't had that inspiration I'm not sure I would have kept bouncing back from the bad, disastrous days in the 80s, getting another bank together and persevering until I could crack it. That was what I took from Scott's tales of Dodger - unless you were there, at the track on the wet Mondays at Plumpton, immersing yourself in the sport as a real, living thing, with all its characters, you'd never find those edges to make the game pay.
Report The Knight September 8, 2021 10:38 PM BST
The tipping line that Veitch was on was owned by BT. If memory serves me correctly it was called 'The Professional' and was advertised with a small box with a line drawing of a guy in a trilby and mackintosh looking across at some running rails!!!

At start up, the guy running it for the company actually advertised for a tipster and I applied.

There wasn't a huge response but it came down to Veitch, another guy and myself from around fifteen likely applicants.

I went to see the guy and he basically told me that I'd be crackers to give up my well paid IT career to become a tipster!

He was right at the time and I was a long way behind Veitch in knowledge and form book interpretation anyway.

And Screaming you are dead right but its actually learning to deal with the emotions of losing and winning etc on a really regular basis that is critical. You only learn that by the everyday immersion you describe. Coming home on a long trip by train or car after a sh*t afternoon in the midst of a bad run is where you learn how to cope with the mental side of punting.

We can all pick winners, but can we all cope when things go awry? It took me years to learn to walk away when it ain't happening and that tommorrow is another day.
Report cloone river September 8, 2021 11:05 PM BST
True words The Knight knowing when to walk away and when not having a bet is the best bet.Some of the best punters in Ireland go about they business under the radar and like to keep it that way.
Report screaming from beneaththewaves September 8, 2021 11:07 PM BST
I remember my first attempt at making it pay. I'd had a £1,000 to £80 tax paid West Tip to win the 1986 National with the bookie who ran the betting shop in Gerrards Cross, Bucks. I was 24, and I could see the rest of my life stretching before me in the grim office where I was working at the time. Forty-one more years of translating millions of pages of pharmaceutical patents. So, with the inspiration of this Dodger character in mind, I resigned and decided to go punting for a living instead, with that £1,000 as a betting bank (yeah, I know). This was when there was still a 4% on-course tax too, remember.

Incredibly, I lasted the whole summer, until one hot, disastrous afternoon at Devon & Exeter, where I went for a big punt on something in a novices' chase. It got beaten by an unraced nag who made all despite being soaked in sweat and taking half a dozen goes before allowing a saddle on its back. It was ridden by Alan Jones and had drifted like a barge in the betting. It was called Mr Frisk.Sad

I tried to get it back on a dog of Gerald Ham's, called Aboushabun, in the last. This was when Ham was the Next Big Thing and attracting all the supposed shrewdies. As a saver, to ensure I had something to continue with the next day, I also backed an ancient but consistent grey of Neil Thomson's called Britannicus, and also Jeff King's front runner Lucyfar. Then I stood ashen-faced and trembling watching one of those Warner For Whatsisname nags of P Hobbs sweep past all three on the run-in. I remember overhearing Dodger giving a mournful post mortem on the Aboushabun debacle to some shifty characters afterwards, then announcing that he'd see them at Wincanton the next day.

Not me though. I didn't even have enough cash left to buy a packet of ten Rothman's, so I had to give up smoking there and then. And all around me the crowd on the bus back down to Exeter were cheerfully chattering and looking forward to the rest of their holiday.

So it was a long train journey back to Slough and a search for employment, which ended in me renting a truly desperate flat in Merton Park, SW London.

Then it was back to office work and dreaming once more of spending afternoons in the fresh air like Dodger et al.
Report screaming from beneaththewaves September 8, 2021 11:14 PM BST
Or, as The Knight commented: learn that there sometimes is a moment to walk away.

But it's not that straightforward in practice. Because at some point you're going to have to resume. And how do you know that the first bet you have the next day is necessarily going to be any better than the last bet you declined the day before?
Report smirnoff2therescue September 8, 2021 11:23 PM BST
gr8 read  screaming LoveLoveLaughLaugh

recently went back to an old haunt which is now a fish n chip establishment where they were showing early pics of the dogs on screens behind the counter prior to sis launching - nee surprise it was Hackney dogs LaughLaughLaughLoveLoveLove
Report screaming from beneaththewaves September 8, 2021 11:49 PM BST
So, how did it all go right?

One thing was reverse-engineering speed figures from standard times and working out how they were calculated. And understanding how going allowances are determined not by the going, but by the form of the race run fastest relative to its class on the day. And making use of observations of rail movements and weather when you went racing (this is before the days of every meeting being televised). And on top of all that, coming up with a formula to calculate the ratings quickly by mental arithmetic.

It hardly sounds like a breakthrough now, but thirty years ago I doubt whether there were more than a dozen people in the country who could do that. It was a hell of an edge. I remember ending up back at Eddie Fremantle and his wife's flat in Putney one evening in '91, and him asking, just how do you calculate speed figures? I mean, Eddie knows more about everything in racing than I do, but even he hadn't found the answer to that mystery. That's how much of an edge it was.

Another crucial change was Nigel Lawson, God bless you, sir, abolishing the on-course tax in '87. Nothing would have been possible without that.

And finally, there was the moment when I finally accepted that the only good bet is one at a good price; that you're not looking for the winner of the race, only why each horse MIGHT win the race. And, connected with that, the importance of level stakes. How many of us have devised systems or gone through our records and found a way of betting that we know will work, because it delivers a level-stake profit, then gone out and had a hundred quid on the jollies and a tenner on the rags? The light-bulb moment for me was having a tenner each way at 100/1 on New Halen in the 1990 Mildmay of Flete, and only winning £1,250. A winner like that should change your life.

So, by November 1990 I decided I knew what I had to do. One way or another I'd ended up lodging in a mate's house in Brighton. I was earning buttons freelancing from home so I could go racing. I was 29, and the time had come. One way or another I was going to have to break out of this. I had a go at estimating what level stakes I'd need to work to, and what bank size I'd need, to be able to go racing every day, pay the expenses and the bills, and, crucially, actually win enough to do more than just survive. Sixty pound level stakes, with a bank of ten grand was what I reckoned I needed.

I had £3,000.

Deciding, ineptly, that I had nothing to lose, I resolved to go out and bet as though I really did have £10,000, and hope for the best. The next day was a Wednesday, and I set off for Newbury, where my first bet was £500 to £35 each way a novice hurdler of the Queen Mother's called Furry Knowe (you had to be a bit flexible with the level stakes to get the fractions). It held on, all out, by half a length. By the end of the season, at Stratford, I was 13 grand up, and never really looked back.

BUT ...

During that first season I had a run in February where I lost 6 grand. Imagine if that had happened in November! I would have been wiped out, twenty-nine, potless, probably in debt, with no employment and no fixed abode. Worse even than that, it would have put me off value betting for ever. There would have been no second attempt, even if I'd been able to put my life back together.

(And, just for the record, later on, in 1994 there was a period when I did 27 grand in six months!)

Which just goes to show, so much of it is all about luck, and the cards falling right for you at the right time. How many others were there out there who were better punters than me, but never got a chance to find out, simply because of the roll of the dice?
Report Movewiththetimes September 8, 2021 11:56 PM BST
Great read Screaming.
Report know all September 8, 2021 11:58 PM BST
he was never a pro punter on course, i didnt know him to have a decent conversation with he would hardly speak anyway i used to think he was a geek type nothing wrong with that just seemed very private would i be right in thinking he was with the winning line now there was a good judge or 2 there but they were masters of advertising they had a few skeletons tho well in with the advertisers really well in tut tut
Report Facts September 9, 2021 5:03 AM BST

'.....Sixty pound level stakes, with a bank of ten grand was what I reckoned I needed....'

I agree with your ratio. Level stakes at circa 1% of Bank, backing  6/1 +

But ew betting ?

10 years of my records, show win only level stake, in the long run, makes a greater profit than halving the stake for ew bet.

Do you concur ?
Report 1st time poster September 9, 2021 6:02 AM BST
thought it was gmb,s kate garroway
and the fairytale of veitch in a goodwood bar in public view telling dandy and jock how and where to ride gift horse in stewards cup is mindboggling
Report Ramruma September 9, 2021 7:10 AM BST
@1st time poster -- the point of Veitch's Stewards Cup anecdote (Pepperdine, I think) is to illustrate his shocking hubris; pig-headedness is the word he used. I think he returns to the subject later on but I can't find it now.
Report The Knight September 9, 2021 10:15 AM BST
Or, as The Knight commented: learn that there sometimes is a moment to walk away.

But it's not that straightforward in practice. Because at some point you're going to have to resume. And how do you know that the first bet you have the next day is necessarily going to be any better than the last bet you declined the day before?

And that, Screaming is the hardest thing of all. No right or wrong answer really.

Very interesting look at your early betting life, BTW. And you said something that so many punters will not accept.

No matter how good you are, no matter how hard working, LUCK still plays a huge part. Of course, Gary Player was right in saying 'the harder I practise, the luckier I get' but luck does come into it. Same as it does in almost every walk of life.
Report Dr Crippen September 9, 2021 10:59 AM BST
On the subject of luck:

If we bet in novice events over hurdles, which seems very popular with budding pros. We're taking a huge risk betting against horses we know little about. And the horses we do know about will be at cramped odds.
Same on the flat with races confined to 2yo and 3yo. 

There's something to think about.
Report sageform September 9, 2021 11:10 AM BST
Dr, you and I often agree but a study of 2yo and 3yo maidens and novice hurdles has served me much better than poring over handicaps. Israr yesterday stood out like a sore thumb to me but he could just as easily have finished last. That is the nature of backing maidens.
Report Dr Crippen September 9, 2021 11:16 AM BST
Suggests the win bet is better than EW in the long run.

I suspect this might also be the case with dutching two selections.

With betting EW, the point is. Would there have been enough confidence in the selection to strike the win bet.

Because the fact that the bet is EW suggests an element of doubt in the win. 

I don't bet EW myself.
Report sparrow September 9, 2021 11:21 AM BST
Surprises me these days that people bew EW to a compulsory level stake when they have the options to bet win and place to separate stakes on here.
Report sparrow September 9, 2021 11:21 AM BST
*bet EW
Report Dr Crippen September 9, 2021 11:28 AM BST
I understand the attraction sageform.

I used to bet novice hurdles only, and at one time kept my own private handicap of these horses.

I also had a friend who did well betting only novice hurdles and novice chasers.

Long winning runs are common.   

But too many get beat, and the winners didn't pay for my losers in the long run.
Report Dr Crippen September 9, 2021 11:28 AM BST
Yes that's a good point sparrow.
Report Dr Crippen September 9, 2021 11:32 AM BST
I've seen John Gough bet in novice hurdles and novice chases.

But they're not for me.
Report Facts September 9, 2021 11:50 AM BST
Nor me.
I bet exclusively  in Class  1,2 ( sometimes 3) Handicaps ,usually at Grade 1 tracks. Focus on 5- 7f races.
Report Ramruma September 9, 2021 12:28 PM BST
@sageform & @Dr Crippen re novices and maidens.

If the market on maidens is shaped primarily by insiders, then these should be the most reliable betting medium. If.

Tbh I do quite well in them by not following the market but that would be the theory. How it works out in practice, I don't know. Harry Findlay and indeed (to get back on topic) Patrick Veitch seem to have done very well from backing their own maidens and novices.

Hmm. Having said I don't follow the market, I do swerve maidens with odds-on shots! I figure that someone obviously knows more than I could gather from looking at pedigrees and conformation and all that malarkey.
Report howard September 9, 2021 1:27 PM BST
Remember Jack Ramsden saying he would have been way better off not backing each-way just win bets.
Report Storm Alert September 9, 2021 1:40 PM BST
I keep a record of all my Cheltenham Festival bets and last year during lockdown I analysed my results.

Over the years 26 e/w bets (between 10/1 & 50/1). Four won, a further 10 placed. The placed bets yielded £1730 returns (before stake). However the four winners yielded £1930 less (before stake) if I assume the win stake halved to accommodate the e/w place bet.

TBF I mostly dutch if the odds allow me to cover a danger. I certainly don't bet e/w any more.
Report fife September 9, 2021 1:42 PM BST
Its all very well saying back win only but only if you have the mindset to shrug off the inevitable long losing run with numerous 2nds and 3rds. I personally prefer backing ew in handicaps at the larger televised meetings as long as you can get the prices and the bets on at the enhanced places offered like the 2.10 Doncaster for instance where some bookmakers are going 5 places and one 6 though I realise that is more difficult for anyone who bets in larger amounts.
Report sparrow September 9, 2021 1:45 PM BST
I see all these EW backers are sidestepping the win and place exchange alternative. i.e. not forced to bet level stakes.
Report Storm Alert September 9, 2021 1:55 PM BST
Using the Cheltenham Festival as the example again. The exchange win market can be outstanding for outsiders in the big field handicaps. The place markets often are a bit underwhelming. Wicklow Brave in 2019 comes to mind, I got about 60.0 on the win market. I think I got about 9.0 on the place market.
Report sparrow September 9, 2021 2:09 PM BST
The point is Storm Alert that you can spread your bet as you wish rather than level stakes.
Report sageform September 9, 2021 2:11 PM BST
Backed Nuvolari purely because the owners are uncanny at finding good horses. Not a logical way to bet but that is my way. Harrow is my only bet at Donc. so far today. He gave me a nice winner at York so have to follow in again.
Report sageform September 9, 2021 2:16 PM BST
On a roll! Brilliant from Murphy on a horse that wanted to hang.
Report Storm Alert September 9, 2021 2:25 PM BST
Good price there, wd.
Report screaming from beneaththewaves September 9, 2021 3:36 PM BST
Well done to sageform. What a run of form! Thirty years ago he'd have had the bookies rubbing the price off without laying a bet, while simultaneously backing it themselves next door. (Yes, that did happen.)

Re the debate about each way betting. If you can get on in snide each way races, or other races where the bookies are betting overbroke on the place side of their market, then surely you have to take advantage? There's no point in declining those advantageous terms for the sake of ideology.

More generally, I was describing the world in 1990, and my personal position within it. I'm sure sparrow's point about the separate win and place markets on betfair is a good one, but that wasn't relevant that day at Newbury in 1990, when I had that £500 to £35 each way Furry Knowe.

As it happened, the race was a 9-runner novices' hurdle with an evens favourite. If you can get on each way, why wouldn't you? (By the way, every horse in that race had run previously, so Dr Crippen's point about unknown opponents didn't apply; but it's still a fair one, though as the years went by I got a lot better at sorting those ones out from the paddock, from recognizing the connections and their habits, and the general vibe of being on-course every day).

More importantly, though, remember I was flying by the seat of my pants back then. That old saying they have in the City is still a good one - however you operate, the most important thing is to make sure you're still in the game tomorrow. At that time, the each way punting kept me afloat from day to day. I backed a lot of outsiders, and I did get some contemptuous comments from one or two books about betting each way in races where the place terms were theoretically in their favour. But here I am, still in the game, and that's what counts.

But what fife says is the best point. Could you, hand-on-heart, swear you'd have backed every big-priced winner you found if you'd had to put down the cash win-only? Particularly to level stakes. Are you absolutely sure you'd follow up a string of losing £100 bets on short ones with £100 to win on a 100/1 shot in the next? Or would you instead look for a reason not to back it. Believe me, if you make a horse 50/1 on your tissue, it's a hell of a lot easier to have £50 each way at 100/1, thus making sure you do have the bet, than be forced to have a £100 to win on something you think only has a 2% chance of winning. Particularly if you've been having a bad day and/or your bank is ridiculously inadequate.

Rob the Bus Driver was a punter on-course in the south and midlands in the 90s who faced this problem. He did the work and knew his stuff, and could sort out big-priced winners. But he just couldn't bring himself to pull the trigger. (He apparently went on to work as an odds-compiler for some Scandinavian outfit; so, well done, Rob; but it illustrates how dealing in your own, hard cash is a lot different from dealing in theoretical percentages; that each way cushion is a big help in that respect).

As it happens, I do agree with Facts though. After that £27,000 losing run I suffered in '94, I did go through the records, and one of the ways I turned it around was to only bet each way when the bookies' terms were in my favour. But the point was that by that point, even with the losing run, I'd bought a house with the winnings from the 1991-2 season, and there was no longer any real worry about going skint; and also I had actually backed plenty of huge-priced winners, which meant I had so much more confidence that I was pricing these rags up correctly. Put it this way - there came a crossover point in the relationship between me and the bookies, where they were more nervous about laying a bet of, say, £2,000 to £60 to me than I was about placing it with them. At that point, you know you no longer need that each way comfort blanket.
Report Dr Crippen September 9, 2021 3:52 PM BST
Nice one sageform.
Report Dr Crippen September 9, 2021 3:54 PM BST
swear you'd have backed every big-priced winner you found if you'd had to put down the cash win-only?

Yes sfbtw, I made that point as well but didn't explain it as well as you.
Report sageform September 9, 2021 3:55 PM BST
Life is very different with exchanges. If I believe a horse has a decent chance at a good price, I back it and then lay off in running. It costs me on weeks like this when I am backing 60% winners but I lay off an awful lot at short prices that get beaten over a year. I very rarely bet e/w. Either win only or place only. Nuvolari 11 down to 5 leaving 6 profit. I put the lay price up as a keep before the off to avoid the problems of delayed pictures.
Report sageform September 9, 2021 4:00 PM BST
Long gone are the days when I could influence the price as I don't go racing these days and don't bet big. The last time I can really remember was when a horse I owned called Jefferies won at Towcester and my bookmaker, Barry Slaney, told me afterwards that 2 punters had followed me from the paddock and followed me in but he laid it all off.
Report Facts September 9, 2021 4:10 PM BST
[i]Storm Alert 09 Sep 21 12:40 
I keep a record of all my Cheltenham Festival bets and last year during lockdown I analysed my results.

Over the years 26 e/w bets (between 10/1 & 50/1). Four won, a further 10 placed. The placed bets yielded £1730 returns (before stake). However the four winners yielded £1930 less (before stake) if I assume the win stake halved to accommodate the e/w place bet.[/i]

Therein lies the issue of ew betting.

Assuming you backed each horse to the same stake
If you normally stake 1 point on each bet and  you stick with one point max stake, you are forced to halve the stake on the win part of the bet

True  calculation would be to see what the profit would have been on the 4 winners (staking  1 point win only).

So, win No.1  Return( inc stake of 1 point) =
    win No.2                                =
    win No.3                                =
    win No.4                                =               
                                      Total     xxx
                                      Less       26 pts (Total stake on all sels win only)
                                     =  P/L       ?
Report duncan idaho September 9, 2021 4:31 PM BST
Ramruma  07 Sep 21 16:59

OP -- wasn't it Katie Derham not Fiona Bruce?

Katie Derham was def one of his phone girls at Uni
Report Celtic warrior September 9, 2021 9:43 PM BST
I admit defeat it must be Katie.
Report mitolo September 9, 2021 10:19 PM BST
Report smirnoff2therescue September 9, 2021 11:57 PM BST
screaming -ask rico /wazza wot he was doing re bokkies scrubbing a price/or more alternatively them scrubbing a price back some 25/26yrs b4 this place

upto him if he wants to divulge

but i had me CoolCoolCool glasses on and saw it happen LaughLaughLaugh
Report smirnoff2therescue September 9, 2021 11:58 PM BST
twas at dogs by the way WinkWinkWink
Report smirnoff2therescue September 10, 2021 12:55 AM BST
Report Storm Alert September 10, 2021 10:39 AM BST
Facts - Therein lies the issue of ew betting. Assuming you backed each horse to the same stake. If you normally stake 1 point on each bet and  you stick with one point max stake, you are forced to halve the stake on the win part of the bet.

My gut feeling is with the way I bet, the returns from the place part of the bet is so marginal (after adj for reductions due to the smaller returns the win bet) that ew betting is not worth bothering with. If something I back finishes 2nd, I am still irritated even if I have backed it each way. And if I started backing big priced horses to place only I would be even more irritated if they went and won.
Report The Knight September 10, 2021 10:52 AM BST
There are two ways of looking at EW betting:

1/ Purely at the figures AFTER the event, when it becomes clear over time that EW betting probably leaves punters worse off than betting just to win.

2/ From an EMOTIONAL point of view. The premium that EW betting probably costs most punters as opposed to win betting is worth paying because it makes losing runs easier to cope with. This is why the daft threads on here about 10p to £100,000 betting only 1/10 shots etc are so unrealistic.

It sounds easy enough but who would really bet £90,000 to win £9k after starting with 10p. NOBODY.

Sadly, there are swathes of betting 'experts' on TV who tell us what to back but sorting out winning bets is only half the game. The other half is learning to cope with losing ones - and that is why 'paper trading' is also such a waste of time.

Without the emotion of risking money paper trading counts for zero.

Lastly, Screaming's spoke briefly about City traders and their desire to still be in the game tomorrow. Dead right.

In my time in the City on the dealing floors as the IT man during most of the 1980's I came to see how the Traders used to say 'Protect Your Principal'. In other words, keep your stake intact as much as you can.

I still do this today before each and every bet when I say to myself 'Do I really want to do this bet at these odds'. Remember, missing a winning bet does not harm your bank like a losing bet does. Hurts like crap but does not cause any deficit!
Report The Knight September 10, 2021 10:58 AM BST
I should add, though, that anyone EW betting in the conventional way instead of using the Win and Place markets on the exchanges must have a screw loose most of the time!

Not only can you split your stakes how you want, the number of places stay the same in the even of non-runners- although there is the % reduction in odds if the latter happens.

I've seen EW punters on an 8 runner race lose when there is a withdrawal and their horse comes third so many times it is laughable when they could have still had a return through using the place markets on here. Yes, two lots of commission but at 2% it is surely, surely more than worth it?
Report Ramruma September 10, 2021 11:20 AM BST
Re e/w betting -- a recent new factor is the number of feature races where bookies are falling over themselves to offer extra places, be that 5, 6 or even 7.
Report sparrow September 10, 2021 11:47 AM BST
Been going on about the ridiculous old EW bet on here for ages The Knight yet people continue to restrict themselves with level stake EW betting rather than win and place. I suppose that is why exchange betting never really took over because of people being stuck in their old ways.
Report Celtic warrior September 10, 2021 11:56 AM BST
Ramruma have you seen the overrounds in those saturday extra place markets. Horrendous
Report sparrow September 10, 2021 12:00 PM BST
Celtic warrior 10 Sep 21 10:56 
Ramruma have you seen the overrounds in those saturday extra place markets. Horrendous

I'd be surprised if they wasn't horrendous. What do people expect?
Report lead on September 10, 2021 12:00 PM BST
I think in most cases you can select the SP on these extra place races...for a while anyway!
Report Celtic warrior September 10, 2021 12:14 PM BST
Lead on. I suspect that you are right. I am running out of accounts now. My sykbet account is very good so wouldn't do that
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