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26 Aug 21 08:13
Date Joined: 03 Jan 01
| Topic/replies: 9,990 | Blogger: jimnast's blog
when ,where and which races would you choose if in charge of this decision ?
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Report lead on August 26, 2021 9:20 AM BST
We've already got one haven't we....its called Cheltenham...overkill!
Report Ramruma August 26, 2021 10:01 AM BST
If the Cheltenham trials meeting had not been called off last term, no-one would be panicking about Dublin.
Report olddesperado August 26, 2021 10:29 AM BST
Cheltenham was the British version until they turned it into the British version of Galway.
Report barstool August 26, 2021 10:37 AM BST
Just another stepping stone on the way to the Holy Grail.
Report jimnast August 26, 2021 1:37 PM BST
such little interest on this racing matter yet 130 plus views perhaps in running is now the be all and end all.
Report Gordon63 August 26, 2021 2:12 PM BST
cheltenham trials day at the end of January is the ONLY place and date which should be considered, introduction of a high quality programme on the Sunday would be welcome.

currently there are trials for Triumph, Ballymore, Gold Cup and Stayers - plenty of room for trials for supreme, arkle, sun alliance, ryanair - of course existing races at warwick and newbury in particular would need to be considered


will more prize money and the fact that these races are at Cheltenham actually lead to the desired result i.e. a large number of entries and less dodging each other pre-March, only the trainers know the answer to that so they are fundamental to whether this 'group' will be successful or just another in long line of BHA failures
Report RothmanMike August 26, 2021 2:47 PM BST
Yet another addition to an already greedy overdone racing calendar.
Scrap 2 current festivals before starting another.
Report in hell August 26, 2021 2:51 PM BST
I expect many trainers still wont run their Cheltenham horses, scarred the bubble will burst. Many dreams will have ended by February
Report barstool August 26, 2021 3:07 PM BST
Quite right in hell.

Or the likes of Henderson and Nicholls will use the meeting as trials, the cotton wool will only come off in March.

Oh and don't forget perfect going will be needed.
Report in hell August 27, 2021 8:48 AM BST
Henderson saying this morning that they need more opportunities for horses, more 2 runner canter around and win on the bridle jobs.
Report jimnast August 27, 2021 8:55 AM BST
rather than having a look at a two day fixture around late january earlier february why not have a proper 3 day fixture over christmas period like the leopardstown 4 day christmas festival.

boxing day at kempton then the 27th and 28th at ascot that would mean scraping the pre christmas meeting at ascot and the mid january meeting,you would need to take the finale juvenile from cheptow,the challow hurdle from newbury,the dipper from cheltenham,and the tolworth from sandown,the grade one clarence at ascot would be lost but upgrade the desert orchid to a grade one therefore making it a better and hopefully a deeper race.

now as in hell says many trainers still might not run there horses but this way they would struggle to use excuses like to close to the festival or travel arrangements.lead on states the cheltenham overkill yes i agree its become obsessive in recent years maybe a proper christmas jump racing festival with three days top class racing when many people can go and would go would not only boost attendances from real racing fans {no concerts needed}it would also give our horse better experience to take on the irish horses later in the season,no doubt with the right prize money some irish horses would travel making the three day fixture even stronger.

the christmas new year racing is not good enough when you see what goes on at leopardstown kempton does not warrant two days most of the other fixtures have either none or one decent race on the card here is what i would like to see.

26th december kempton

finale juvenile hurdle             grade one 2m

feltham novice chase {kauto star}  grade one 3m

desert orchid chase                grade one 2m

pertemps qualifier                 h/cap hurd 3m

king george chase                  grade one 3m

christmas hurdle                   grade one 2m

listed mares hurdle                listed    2m4f   taken from sandown

ascot 27th

dipper novice chase                grade two 2m4f

challow novice hurdle              grade one 2m4f

warfield mares hurdle              grade two 3m    taken from january meeting

silver cup h/cap chase             listed    3m    taken from december meeting

relkeel hurdle                     grade two 2m4f

paddy power h/cap chase            grade three 2m4f

listed bumper 4 to 6 years olds    listed           taken from december meeting

28th ascot

tolworth novice hurdle              grade one 2m

wayward lad novice chase            grade two  2m               

handicap hurdle [ladbrooke}         grade three listed    taken from december meeting

coral cup qualifier                             2m5f

long walk hurdle                    grade one 3m          taken from december meeting

handicap chase                      grade two 2m         

bumper   4 to 6 year olds           grade one 2m

off course this wont happen because uk racecourses have to much power and put there own interests in front of the sport of horse racing but heres hoping.
Report parispike August 27, 2021 9:57 AM BST
Doubtless any such event will be additional to current fixtures and will therefore merely increase the opportunity for the better horses to dodge each other.
Report Gordon63 August 27, 2021 10:18 AM BST
jimnast kudos for all the thought you've put in, more than many in the 'group' will I'm sure....however as you say it's unlikely and I for one don't think trying to emulate Leopardstown (or Limerick) with their Christmas Festivals is the way to go because there's around 3-6 top class races with another 2-4 very good races fluffed out with maidens and handicaps and mares bumpers. Yes lots of people fortunate enough to have time on their hands to go racing at Christmas so crowds could/should be interesting enough for courses involved to sacrifice some of their other meetings but my preference remains for a top class Sunday at Cheltenham trials because Kempton/Ascot are about as far different from Cheltenham as you can get and I'd prefer as a punter to have more relevant form lines. Let's see what the collective brains of the 'group' come up with but if it has some of the usual suspects involved then it'll be diverse, innovative and a load of ****
Report jimnast August 27, 2021 10:23 AM BST
most probably correct paris so even with increased prize money on offer the big uk yards would still avoid each other so we can all enjoy small fields with heavy odds on chances in them,kempton will continue to put on races to suit nicky and uk national hunt racing will just revolve around 4 days in march.
Report jimnast August 27, 2021 10:30 AM BST
good morning gordon

yes kempton and ascot are nothing like cheltenham but my whole point is we need a big 3 day christmas fixture in its own right good racing with good prize money attracting big crowds ,if horses then go on to cheltenham then thats good but my hope is a christmas festival would be a target for the best horses not a build up to the future although the experience gained would of course help when taking on the irish in the spring.
Report salmon spray August 27, 2021 10:30 AM BST
It's about prize money. I can remember when Cheltenham wasn't quite as big a deal as it is now. Remember the Spa Hurdle ?. The excessive prize money compared to elsewhere plus the habit of only running some of the top horses 3 times in a season has undoubtedly unbalanced the calendar.
But if you are going to have another festival surely anywhere BUT Cheltenham.
Report Gordon63 August 27, 2021 10:35 AM BST
Jimnast - kempton 2 days and wetherby 2 days USED to be decent meetings over Christmas but the Castleford Chase is a prime example of the downgrading of races and funneling to Saturdays, I personally don't think we need 3 days at one particular course over that period but it's certainly better than what we've seen over past 10 years...

salmon - I'm not proposing another 'festival' but a quality Sunday at Cheltenham in late January makes sense (to me at least!!)
Report jimnast August 27, 2021 10:46 AM BST

the two day kempton fixture is not really good enough and only 6 races a day is not good value for the racegoer so i am suggesting one day at kempton and two days at ascot,i know you have been to the dublin festival this could attract the same kind of crowds meaning people who understand and go racing to see the horses and to a lesser extent jockeys no gimmicks required.
Report workrider August 27, 2021 10:57 AM BST
Jimnast thanks for the time and effort , I think you did more there than the whole bunch in BHA did in ten years, as has already been said by yourself and others ,the courses seem to hold all the power now and are unlikely to give up their best races to enhance British racing . Their interest lies only in their own tracks .
Report jimnast August 27, 2021 11:03 AM BST
no problem workrider i enjoy these sort of things,i was speaking to somebody at york involved with coming up with a new sp system i gave him my opinion and he said he would be in touch ,still waiting,
Report Gordon63 August 27, 2021 11:03 AM BST
Jimnast - yes was over for the first DRF and you're 100% correct all about the racing, no gimmicks (I understand Leopardstown have made some improvements to the facilities in the meantime, which IMO were necessary because the racing was top class but not the facilities, hopefully get to check that out in 2022). the current 2 day Kempton and Wetherby cards are certainly NOT good enough in respect of racegoer value or quality of racing however I think there was a time when they were (the halycon days of Dickinson top notchers running 6-8 times per season), however I don't see any way back to those days with the current BHA and racecourse owners so if I can't get the Sunday at Cheltenham in late January then I'll certainly vote for your proposal!!!
Report barstool August 27, 2021 11:09 AM BST
Rather than put on a new trials/pre Cheltenham meeting, call it whatever you want. The BHA should take a look at at the whole jumps program.

Back in the 60s all the top horses had to run in handicaps due to the lack of specific races catering solely for them. The likes of Arkle, Mill House, Flyngbolt would compete in the top handicap from the Hennessy to the Whitbread and racing was far more exiting and better for it all year round.. We saw the horses often, and truly competing against each other. The pecking order was firmly established before Cheltenham, which was their crowning glory. Has it should be and not the be all and all.

So come on, clear out the calendar and start again.
Report workrider August 27, 2021 11:09 AM BST
Jimnast , the BHA seem to have accepted that courses rule the roost and only make token gestures to appear to have retained control. I doubt very much if they even have a collective plan for British racing if I'm honest...
Report jimnast August 27, 2021 11:12 AM BST
indeed barstool just look at the mandarin chase help at newbury over christmas once won by night nurse now its just an egg and spoon race.
Report Gordon63 August 27, 2021 11:12 AM BST
workrider - they do, the CEO AnneMarie something said about 18 months ago, diversity was their to Hamilton via the pub! good luck all - I'm going to lay sweet believer
Report jimnast August 27, 2021 11:19 AM BST
enjoy hamilton gordon there have been some good horse run there this season.
Report workrider August 27, 2021 11:20 AM BST
Enjoy yourself Gordon and tell the lads I was asking for them , no doubt the local form expert will have worked out a couple of winners for the rest of you, and you will combine your knowledge with his and those bookies had better watch out!..Cool
Report tony6499 August 27, 2021 2:08 PM BST
Trouble is you're a hostage to the weather in mid winter when I guess they would want a festival ? Surely there are already enough graded races over fences and hurdles that don't get more than a 5/6 runners so why more ? Maybe they will suggest a winter racing league next ?
Report mrcombustible August 27, 2021 2:50 PM BST
Kempton should not be allowed to stage and festival. The facilities are dreadful, no changes in 50 years.
Report Whippin Piccadilly August 27, 2021 3:12 PM BST
Do we really need another festival? Top class horses will always make up a very small percentage of the horses in training. A better option is some rescheduling and making Non Cheltenham Festival graded races worth considerably more in prize money than they are now. Make the prize money on offer so attractive and tempting that you will hear less of "we're going straight to Cheltenham with the horse" from connections. But again, you still can't expect to see a top class horse running every month over the jumps. It just isn't viable or fair to campaign a top class NH horses this way.
Report jimnast August 27, 2021 3:13 PM BST
the reasons i thought kempton would be the right place to stage the opening day mr c was firstly it is the home of the king george a race that has stood the test of time ,also kempton is the most likely track to provide decent ground over christmas and with 5 grade ones i felt that would be a huge plus.
Report Celtic warrior August 27, 2021 3:19 PM BST

excellent post there. I would love your idea to come true. two consecutive big days at my local track. of course it won't happen.

funny how the sunday flat series shows that flat owners/trainers will show up for more money. The complete opposite is true for top class jump races. its bizarre. who cares if ascot is not the same as Cheltenham. Cheltenham has become way way too important in the calendar.

The current ascot xmas meeting is excellent fare and with loads of festive side shows. its one of the best meetings of the whole year
Report jimnast August 27, 2021 3:20 PM BST
ireland has 4 national hunt only festivals christmas,dublin,fairyhouse easter and punchestown it does not seem to have done them any harm,why would racing fans not want a top class 3 days at christmas ?
Report jimnast August 27, 2021 3:25 PM BST
thanks celtic

ascot do everything well.

i do think the best jumps track in the country is newbury but i am trying to be realistic and suggest something which could happen and as newbury have big fixtures in late november and early february plus people could base themselves west london for the 3 days i thought ascot could give up there two fixtures to save the ground.

off out for the day take care everyone.
Report Whippin Piccadilly August 27, 2021 3:28 PM BST
We already have the 2 biggest NH festivals and along with the numerous other 2/3 day meetings at Cheltenham, Newbury, Haydock, Kempton, Sandown, Ascot.....why do we need more? Where are all these top class horses coming from to contest these new festival races? Most of the Irish trained horses will stay home for their own Festivals.
Report barstool August 27, 2021 3:49 PM BST
Whippin Piccadilly,

Your probably a lot younger than I and may not know, but racing in the big races on a Saturday throughout the season was how they used to be campaigned back then.

All the other top horses did too, they stood their races well. It was the just the same for hurdles and chases.

Arkle ran 26 times in 4 years conceding lumps of weight every time.

Denman in 2007/8 probably the last of similar ilk.

It is the Trainers who have changed.
Report Cauthenmeister August 27, 2021 6:38 PM BST
I remember when Racing Post Chase day at Kempton was a proper trials day, I was there for Bonanza Boy winning the big race from miles behind and the day Brief Gale won on her way to Cheltenham. The day is less interesting now than when races like the Tommy Whittle were run midweek, and yes I know that wasn't at Kempton. As said earlier it seems to be a lot down to gun shy trainers.
Report jimnast August 28, 2021 6:41 AM BST
good morning cauthenmeister

you remember correctly

this is 1994 racing post day

rendelsham hurdle
balasani went on to win the stayers hurdle
cab on target

dovecote novice hurdle
3rd arctic kinsman next run won the supreme novice hurdle

emblem chase
remittance man beat deep sensation

adonis hurdle
won by mysilv who then won the triumph hurdle

pendle novice chase
won by monsiur le cure who then went on to win the sun alliance chase

racing post chase
antonin   then went on to win the ritz club at the festival
docklands express
the fellow then went on to win the gold cup
rough quest
fighting words then went on to win the kim muir
elfast  then went on to win the mildmay of flete
toby tobias

greenhall whitley HANDICAP transfered from haydock
master oats
moorcroft boy
garrison savannah
young hustler

some card

3 gold cup winners
2 champion chasers
1 grand national winner

and 8 cheltenham festival winners just over two weeks later

barstool says its the trainers who have changed i think this is evidence that he is correct.
Report jimnast August 28, 2021 7:00 AM BST

which is haydocks two day fixture ?
Report Gordon63 August 28, 2021 7:42 AM BST
morning all, yes for sure the trainer's approach has changed - as said previously the Dickinson chasers were out at least once per month, oftentimes more, dessie/pantomime prince/deenos beano several others from martin pipe/elsworth etc were out 8-10 times per season...even twiston davies in his early training career ran his way more often than he tends to nowadays...maybe the increased competition from Ireland has led to different methods but it worked fine in the past

let's see what the 'group' come up with, hopefully some of them are on the forum and even better if they co-opt Jimnast!

lovely night at Hamilton, good crowd, good racing and 3 (mi capricho, mahrajaan - who quickened really well after the second shut off the rails run, glorious rio) from 7, off to cartmel monday and back to Hamilton wednesday

platinumcard didn't win last night but this one has improved so much this season and I'd say will win again, be interesting if it goes over hurdles...I don't think glasgow stakes winner Aleas in same class as some of the recent winners but mr wagyu/commanche falls did us proud at Goodwood, perfect power has won at ascot/morny (in what has generally been an awful year for fahey so this one possibly even better than shown so far) emaraaty ana/dragon symbol finished 2nd/3rd in G1 Nunthorpe so yes we've seen some top performers this season
Report jimnast August 28, 2021 8:34 AM BST
i like hamilton gordon but have not been for a few years in fact not since the hotel was built,i remember staying in bothwell not a bad place for a night couple of bars and a nice restaurant,anyway on waking up the following morning the news was reporting the uk had voted for brexit.
Report Cauthenmeister August 28, 2021 8:52 AM BST
Morning Jimnast.
1995 wasn't too shabby either.
Viking Flagship who went on to win the CC was beaten by Micky Fitz on Thumbs Up (Grand Annual 4th)
Brief Gale (Sun Alliance) beat Kadi (Mildmay of Flete) in the Pendil nov ch with Dancing Paddy third before his Arkle 4th.
Antonin 3rd in Racing Post finished second to Rough Quest in the Ritz.
Cyborgo won the Rendlesham before finishing second in the Stayers.
Report olddesperado August 28, 2021 9:08 AM BST
The big difference in fairness is the way races are now run.

Back in the day horses were hunted around for the first 70% of the race.

Now we have horses not able to go the pace after 3 furlongs.

Takes so much more out of them.
Report Gordon63 August 28, 2021 9:08 AM BST
brief gale one of my all time faves - always thought it could win a big race so the kempton win gave me even more confidence, remember being on course thinking what the heck is philip doing then of course she stayed on to win easily in the end which was satisfying on many levels particularly financially and especially because mccririck had been 'harking on' about the top two in the market all day!!!

bothwell has gone all cheshire wags but that has resulted in some very trendy and surprisingly good restaurants if you don't mind mixing with the fake tan battalions, a few friends stayed at the hotel and they were very pleased, only drawback was no early check in (hopefully a temporary covid thing) so they had to change in toilets pre-racing!!
Report jimnast August 28, 2021 9:25 AM BST
great stuff cauthenmeister

both cyborgo and mysilv mentioned on the same thread one of the greatest ever festival races when they were 1st and 2nd in the stayers a race seldom brought up in the great races that have taken place at cheltenham,mysilv had also ran in that years champion hurdle just 2 days earlier
Report jimnast August 28, 2021 9:28 AM BST
blimey gordon trendy and bothwell are two words i would not have thought would be in the same sentence.
Report Gordon63 August 28, 2021 9:29 AM BST
the cricklewood, cutfish, riva steakhouse and several others - at weekend it's full of wannabe wags looking for footballers or big time dealers
Report Gordon63 August 28, 2021 7:50 PM BST
jimnast - ed gravy train chamberlin read your mind....or else he reads the forum!!
Report jimnast August 29, 2021 7:11 AM BST
yes gordon the article was brought to my attention last night,slightly different he just wants one day at kempton and one day at ascot which would be better than nothing but i see no reason why we could not have three days,to keep people happy it could be called a christmas treat for national hunt lovers who enjoy going racing rather than a festival.
Report mrcombustible August 29, 2021 7:30 AM BST
By Peter Scargill
7:00PM, AUG 28 2021
Newbury has expressed an interest and willingness to host a potential British version of the Dublin Racing Festival in the position occupied by the Betfair Hurdle meeting in February.

The fixture was flagged as "a great meeting" by champion trainer Paul Nicholls for anchoring any newly created festival, which is believed to be among the preliminary topics for discussion within the Quality Jump Racing Review Group that was set up in the wake of this year's 23-5 drubbing of Britain by Ireland at the Cheltenham Festival.

Keith Ottesen, clerk of the course at Newbury, said: "We have read with interest the views of Paul Nicholls and the Quality Jump Review Group regarding the idea of creating a Dublin Racing Festival-style fixture in the run-up to the Cheltenham Festival, which we think has merit.

"We already know that our well-established Betfair Super Saturday fixture in early February is in an ideal position in the calendar and plays an important role in the jumps season, and if there was industry support and the necessary funding in place to expand this raceday we would be delighted to discuss this further with the key stakeholders when they are ready."

The Game Spirit Chase, Denman Chase and Betfair Hurdle are the feature races on Newbury's card and moving the Ascot Chase meeting has been mooted as a possible way to make a DRF-equivalent festival into a two-day fixture.

Jonjo O'Neill, who was one of the four British trainers to score at this year's Cheltenham Festival by sending out Sky Pirate to land the Grand Annual Chase, was supportive of an enhanced fixture in advance of Cheltenham provided prize-money was boosted for those competing.

"If it all lined up with the racing programme and the prize-money then I think it could be interesting," he said on Saturday. "No-one is going to risk a good horse that close to Cheltenham if the prize-money isn't good enough so that has to be a priority.

"The best prize-money at the moment is in Ireland and that's a big factor in what is going on. They're able to attract the biggest owners and keep the best horses as a result, which makes them so strong."

O'Neill landed the Betfair Hurdle at Newbury this year with Soaring Glory before the six-year-old went on to finish fourth in the Supreme Novices' Hurdle, and the trainer agreed that the raceday came at the right time of the season for horses with Cheltenham ambitions.

He said: "The time of year is perfect and it would work as a platform for horses going to Cheltenham afterwards. Others have said it before, but it is too close to travel horses to Ireland to run in the Dublin Racing Festival – it's too much for them. The priority has to be, and always will be, to get to Cheltenham with the best possible chance of winning.

Jonjo O'Neill: "The priority has to be, and always will be, to get to Cheltenham"
Jonjo O'Neill: "The priority has to be, and always will be, to get to Cheltenham"
Edward Whitaker
"But until they can get it all organised, and get the prize-money organised, it is difficult to talk too strongly about it."

Newbury's meeting and the Ascot Chase fixture are sponsored by Betfair, with the bookmaker willing to support any talks and decisions made on creating a new festival meeting.

Barry Orr, Betfair's head of racing PR, said: "We would happily sit down with our racecourse partners if and when the time comes to discuss this possibility. We would also want to take on board the thoughts of the likes of Paul Nicholls, our ambassador, and others.

"Ultimately we are supportive of any moves for the betterment of National Hunt racing in Britain."
Report jimnast August 29, 2021 7:53 AM BST
thanks mr c as i said earlier on the thread newbury is the best national hunt track in the country however yet again this is all about the cheltenham festival and the proximity {although racing post chase day in the mid 90s proved proximity is bol.ox}a three day christmas fixture of quality racing would be its own fixture,as on the flat the guineas and derby meetings are not ran as a royal ascot warm up meetings ,the july meeting and goodwood are not a practice for york ,york is not a practice for doncaster.i should think the newbury idea would at least give the top uk trainers a ready made excuse not to go to the drf.

that all said if the newbury suggestion happened i would still look forward to it.
Report Gordon63 August 29, 2021 9:04 AM BST
jimnast - then that must make ffos las the second best....IMP both Ayr (great viewing) and Newcastle are decent jumps tracks however facilities at both need an's been a few years since I went to Newbury, used to go regularly when living darn sarf but I certainly didn't enjoy it as much when it became 'The Racecourse at Newbury' and all those penthouse flats appeared, access was always difficult, I guess almost impossible nowadays?
Report jimnast August 29, 2021 9:30 AM BST
access is not good ,mark kershaw who for many years was involved with newbury had a big influence on ffos las although while they look alike the ground at fos las can become shocking gordon,good news on its way you can start planning some trips over the irish sea ,from september its looking promising 5000 instead of 500 although some tracks will struggle to get to many in as they are still using the indoor buildings for keeping jockeys and others apart.
Report jimnast August 29, 2021 9:30 AM BST
access is not good ,mark kershaw who for many years was involved with newbury had a big influence on ffos las although while they look alike the ground at fos las can become shocking gordon,good news on its way you can start planning some trips over the irish sea ,from september its looking promising 5000 instead of 500 although some tracks will struggle to get to many in as they are still using the indoor buildings for keeping jockeys and others apart.
Report jimnast August 29, 2021 9:57 AM BST
you mention ayr and yes it is a good viewing track especially from the roof in tatts,i was watching the owner of aratus been interviewed this morning {came over very well}and he gave ayr a mention when asked how he got into racing he replied my dad had a 25% share in golden cygnet thankfully i was not at ayr that sad day.
Report Gordon63 August 29, 2021 11:24 AM BST
jimnast yes the ground conditions very different in western wales however dai walters who built the course wanted it modelled on newbury and I think the track configuration and circumference are close to identical although newbury doesn't have a sheet iron roof which sounds like an iron foundry when it rains!!!  the younger ones will remember valiramix, gloria victis, our connor, synchronised et al but to those of a certain vintage golden cygnet was THE one who got away, that he was cruising to a certain victory as a novice against a top top field (the likes of which you rarely see these days away from leopardstown/cheltenham/aintree) just rubbed salt into the wounds
Report jimnast August 29, 2021 12:28 PM BST
you mention valliramix gordon what a coincidence the day he won the bula hurdle staged at a midweek newbury meeting that season was the first time i me

yes he could have been anything gordon,i saw valiramix win the bula hurdle held at a midweek newbury fixture in the days before the penthouse flats ,kershaw was in charge back then,they even had princess anne there that day presenting a trophy.
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