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18 Aug 21 14:30
Date Joined: 29 Jun 02
| Topic/replies: 31,413 | Blogger: workrider's blog
Henry .You knew deep down he wasn't long for this World , yet the Gentleman in him shone through , his elegance was unquestionable even if the Cancer had left its mark . Funny but as a Irishman I really miss him..
Pause Switch to Standard View They talk about Frankel's Juddmonte...
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Report Hayden August 18, 2021 3:31 PM BST
Nothing wrong with an Irishman missing a Scotsman.
Report elisjohn August 18, 2021 3:32 PM BST
my fav juddmonte, or b&h gold cup as it was, was another of henrys fav horses, oh so sharp , but denied by a fantastic piggott ride on commanche run
Report workrider August 18, 2021 3:40 PM BST
Mine was Roberto's ..
Report angrybryan August 18, 2021 5:29 PM BST
I went that day and the noise when Frankel hit the front was extraordinary.What should have been one of the greatest sports events I had ever been to was horrible.I idolised Henry Cecil and the sight of him struggling into the paddock face completely devoid of colour was so deflating.I went after Frankel's win.
Report barstool August 18, 2021 5:51 PM BST
You must have been a Mill Reef fan workrider.

Roberto broke my heart that day.
Report workrider August 18, 2021 10:29 PM BST
A little story Barstool , I watched the Roberto Derby with the son of the breeder of the second Rhinegold he was in tears . Loved little Mill Reef but the greatest of them all was Nijinsky, simply unreal..
Report Jumping-cuckoo-monk August 19, 2021 1:29 PM BST
Irish trained Nijinsky
What a surprise!
Report HeinzGuderian September 8, 2021 10:47 AM BST

Aug 19, 2021 -- 7:29AM, Jumping-cuckoo-monk wrote:

Irish trained NijinskyWhat a surprise!

British Isles, actually! Love

Report Blackrock September 8, 2021 10:56 AM BST
I have a picture of the legend Lester on another legend Nijinsky in my living room. Only racing picture i have.

In my local pub there is a pic of Lester and Pat Eddery wearing cream coloured macks, what looks like watching work on the gallops. Its in black and white and ive asked  the landlord to sell it to me. Pheck right off was the reply.Sad
Report workrider September 8, 2021 11:06 AM BST
Heinz, you probably need to brush up on your Geography , if Tipperary in in the British Isles then surely England is in the Irish Sea...
Report sageform September 8, 2021 11:17 AM BST
In terms of personal satisfaction, One So Wonderful has to be the best. I backed her on debut at Kempton and I will never forget how she emerged from a pack of unraced 2yo fillies under Oscar Urbina and went 10 lengths clear in less than a furlong despite being really unfurnished and backward in the paddock. She didn't run much at 3 but then managed to win the Juddmonte in a 4 way photo as a 4yo. Great race. Frankel was also a great result but more predictable.
Report LoyalHoncho September 8, 2021 11:22 AM BST
workrider  Laugh
Report LoyalHoncho September 8, 2021 11:29 AM BST
I keep agreeing with you workrider but don't apologise for it.  Nijinsky was simply magnificent.  I read someone on here slagging off his "greedy" owners for going for the St Leger when the Arc should have been the real dedicated target.  He didn't know what he was talking about.  It was racing altruism not greed which motivated the owner Engelhard.  The triple crown was and still is almost legendary and he wanted the horse ennobled in racing lore by winning it.  Which it is.  We are still talking about him fifty years on!
Report workrider September 8, 2021 11:50 AM BST
LoyalHoncho, he is my fav horse of all time, I was lucky enough to be at the Curragh the day he made his debut, you couldn't help but fall in love with him. Only for the ringworm he would have been unbeaten , though Lester was at fault for his Arc defeat ...
Report Blackrock September 8, 2021 12:00 PM BST
How was Lester to blame for Arc defeat?
Report September 8, 2021 12:04 PM BST
Nijinsky was a sick horse at Longchamp and his owner wasn't deserving of such a great horse.
Report Blackrock September 8, 2021 12:07 PM BST
Totally agree. Leger took too much out of the horse. Should have gone for one race not back.

On form Sassafras couldnt have got within hailing distance of Nijinsky. Just wasn't the real Nijinsky that day.
Report Blackrock September 8, 2021 12:08 PM BST
* not both
Report brigust1 September 8, 2021 1:09 PM BST
Andrew, Nijinsky's owner was dying. He certainly wasn't expected to live long enough to see the Arc and that, if I remember rightly, was the main reason for going for the Triple Crown. He died in March the following year. I do agree I think it may have cost him the Arc but Lester didn't have the greatest run in the race and possibly gave him too much to do. He certainly never ran below form. Which he clearly did in the Champion Stakes. He is the third best horse I have ever seen.
Report September 8, 2021 1:32 PM BST
Good afternoon Laurie,

I wasn't aware Charles Engelhard was dying in the Autumn of 1970 (died of a heart attack the following year).

It was only his class that won Nijinsky the Leger and whatever is said about 'records' and 'racing history' it's not the horse that benefits, but the owners. He should have avoided it, won the Arc and retired unbeaten thereafter.

I agree he was truly a great and it's amazing that Timeform only rate him on a par with Celtic Swing and a lb higher than Moorstyle (but we both share same views about ratings).
Report brigust1 September 8, 2021 1:51 PM BST
The story I heard Andrew was that he had this news about his health then asked VOB to ready Nijinsky, who was still recovering from ringworm, for the St Leger. I have seen this written somewhere else, I just cannot remember where. It isn't the sort of thing anyone would invent so I think there is some truth in it.
Report Gordon63 September 8, 2021 2:15 PM BST
my biggest regret in racing is not going to York to see Frankel...I too loved Henry (he was born in Aberdeen like myself so that was part of the initial appeal) and you can see the love he had for Frankel in every nod and word...too young to remember nijinksy (and therefore sir ivor, ribot and sea bird) but without knowing the background I can see why they went Triple Crown and it's not been done since of course and if Camelot couldn't do it then it'll be a few decades more I suspect.  I would have loved to have seen Frankel go for the Arc as a 4yo, I think the Juddmonte was his most impressive win (2000 gns was freak!) and as a stallion he's passed on far more stamina than most would have thought.
Report barstool September 8, 2021 3:03 PM BST
Lester said he should have waited a bit longer after been beaten in the Arc, whether that was just a comment to be taken seriously I do not know. However, Nijinsky was a magnificent horse and one I loved following. Having said that I do not think he was a better horse than Seabird 11 who won the Derby and Arc in 1965.
Report sparrow September 8, 2021 3:07 PM BST
Sea Bird 11 was my all time nomination for the best but Camelot would have won the Leger but for running in that terrible ground in the Irish Derby. To be fair Aidan blamed himself for allowing the horse to run that day and said it had ruined the horse.
Report Storm Alert September 8, 2021 3:18 PM BST
As a punter what I liked about Sir Henry best of all was his ability to deliver great horses at the top of their ability to win in the really big races. Although the prices were often short I won far more than I lost by backing them.

Frankel was something else and had some lovely bets on him and Excelebration (underrated imho) who I soon realised was virtually unbeatable except by Frankel.
Report geordie1956 September 8, 2021 4:49 PM BST
Even the name Nijinsky is pure class so I'm pleased he was so magnificent on the track ... best horse i've seen until Frankel came along ... I wish he had run over 12 furlongs because i'm sure he would have stayed but who am I to suggest Henry was wrong
We all have our favorites of course which is why horse racing can evoke arguments about who was the best ... its all very subjective
Report impossible123 September 8, 2021 6:33 PM BST
Sir Henry knew when and where to run his top charges. He would not even entertain running Frankel in The Derby or over 12f despite winning comfortably in The Juddmonte and Champion Stakes.

Compared that to Alcohol Free and Mojo Star? Their respective trainers have yet to find their optimum trip!
Report sparrow September 8, 2021 6:58 PM BST
Cecil wanted to ensure his horse wasn't beaten, thats all. No evidence to suggest the horse wouldn't have stayed 12f.
Report barstool September 8, 2021 7:39 PM BST
Just had a look at Timeform top horses list at 3yo.



Brigadier Gerard, Tudor Minstrel

Ribot, Abernant

Mill Reef

Shergar, Dancing Brave, Sea the Stars, Vaguely Noble, Dubai Millenium, Harbinger

Nijinsky was 138

Does Frankel deserve a mark of 147?

Was Nijinsky better than 138?

As Geordie 1956 says, we all have our favourites and it is very subjective. So much so I will keep schtum on this one.
Report sageform September 8, 2021 8:16 PM BST
No doubt that a mile on soft is optimum for Alcohol Free. Jeff Smith wanted to go for the Juddmonte, partly for the big prize, and partly to help Andrew Balding win the trainers champs and it didn't come off. She owes them nothing. Mojo Star could yet prove a Group 1 horse but like Khalifa Sat last year, he may never win another race. Some horses come out of the Derby better than ever but most are wrecked by the experience.
Report Jumping-cuckoo-monk September 8, 2021 8:23 PM BST
My amendments to that list @ 18.39 would be;

Sea-Bird, Frankel(down)

Brigadier Gerard, Tudor Minstrel, Dancing Brave(up)

Ribot, Abernant

Mill Reef

Shergar, Sea the Stars, Vaguely Noble, Dubai Millenium,

139 Harbinger(down)
Report LoyalHoncho September 8, 2021 8:54 PM BST
Oh So Sharp did it in '85 Gordon63 but so as not to hurt anyone's feelings I will call it the Fillies Triple Crown.
Nevertheless she did it!  Cool
Report barstool September 8, 2021 9:35 PM BST
How much are you dropping Frankel Jcm?

My view might seem pretty drastic to some, but I would put him on a par with Mill Reef at 141.

Broadly Agree with you on the others. Perhaps I would have nudged Dancing Brave up to 142 and would certainly have dropped Harbinger a pound or two.
Report barstool September 8, 2021 9:35 PM BST
How much are you dropping Frankel Jcm?

My view might seem pretty drastic to some, but I would put him on a par with Mill Reef at 141.

Broadly Agree with you on the others. Perhaps I would have nudged Dancing Brave up to 142 and would certainly have dropped Harbinger a pound or two.
Report smirnoff2therescue September 8, 2021 9:45 PM BST
Dancing Brave was my favourite horse ever but i cudnt put him on a par wiv Frankel sorry good as he was

Again all subjective i know but thats how i feel on those two
Report penzance September 8, 2021 10:21 PM BST
Dancing Brave is my top horse ever who I've seen.Top Class.
Sea Bird was before my time but his Derby & Arc wins,I've
watched on youtube.Mustard!
Report smirnoff2therescue September 8, 2021 10:26 PM BST
twas all about the Derby for me wiv him penzance

6/4 the pair in King George soon afta - me mate was Sharastani daft - biggest gift eva at the time and for time eva afta LaughLaughLaugh
Report penzance September 8, 2021 10:35 PM BST
I'll alway remember Peter O'Sullivan's  'Dancing Brave
with a double handfull'.
Report brain dead jockeys September 8, 2021 11:21 PM BST
frankel beat multiple g1 winners by miles
Report Jumping-cuckoo-monk September 8, 2021 11:26 PM BST
The Brave won a painfully slow Guineas but he beat a future champion sprinter so that gets upgraded.
Ran one of the fastest final 2 fur ever on the Derby
Broke the course record at Goodwood never off the bridle
Won an all-star Arc with a burst of finishing speed that saw his jockey go pale in the interview after with the shock of it.

Frankel's wins were good visually.
Loved to see him lead out the Brave in a race and.................
Report smirnoff2therescue September 8, 2021 11:33 PM BST
canford cliffs at the time.......

destroyed him

easily the best of last 40 yrs at least LaughLaughLaughLaugh
Report Jumping-cuckoo-monk September 9, 2021 12:53 AM BST
Summat wrong with Canford Cliffs.
Few races at end of his career he darted left in the finish.
Not in the same league as DB
Nowhere near.
Report sageform September 9, 2021 8:50 AM BST
Very hard to compare unbeaten horses as we will never know how much they had in reserve. Different distances, different going, jockey, health, injury. How good was Hawk Wing? I happen to think his Lockinge was a complete fluke but on that one run he is rated very highly. Mill Reef and Grundy are my favourite Derby winners as both were capable of winning top class sprints as well as staying 12 furlongs. Frankel is the best in my lifetime though as winning 14 straight races is very hard to do. He is heading for the Champion sire title this year as well.
Report Storm Alert September 9, 2021 9:14 AM BST
I always found it difficult to assess exactly where Frankel sat with the greats. Visually he is the best horse I have seen race, the Juddemont win pulverising Farhh and St Nicholas Abbey was incredible. He beat Excelebration easily by many lengths five times and if you strip out those races Excelebration's form was 411/111/1114 including three group ones.

He brushed aside Canford Cliffs (five straight G1 wins) over a mile. For me his greatest race was his final one when overcoming a tardy start to beat eight times G1 winner Cirrus Des Aigles on very soft ground which suited the French horse much better.
Report sparrow September 9, 2021 9:59 AM BST
Do any of the posters who put forward Frankel believe that the horse would not stay 12f?
Report sageform September 9, 2021 10:36 AM BST
He would have stayed 12 furlongs but whether he would have run to the same level is open to doubt. I think he might have won the King George as a 4yo but the Arc on soft ground might have been a different matter. Cirrus des Aigles made him work in the Champion on soft and Frankel was not going away at the end.
Report barstool September 9, 2021 11:15 AM BST
Frankel is very difficult to assess as you rightly suggest Storm Alert as you can only beat what was around you at the time.

Farhh won the Thirsk Hunt Cup as a four year old off 100 and was later beaten twice later that year when 122 by Frankel.

Excelebration (126) was a very good mid 120s miler, so too Canford Cliffs(127). Cirrus Des Aigles (130) was 6 years old when beaten 1.3/4 lengths by Frankel. This is the highest rated horse he ever beat.

He was a great racehorse trained by a wonderful trainer but the general standard of  horses in the UK and Ireland at that time was not exceptional and I think a Timeform rating of 147 is hard to justify.

Would Frankel have stayed a mile and a half? His offspring suggest he would but his style of racing, off a slower early pace. Who knows?
Report sparrow September 9, 2021 11:16 AM BST
Thank you sageform and I would probably agree that he would have not remained unbeaten if he had competed in all the top 12f races as a 4 year old. I accept as a 3 year old that Cecil could not contemplate the extra half mile.
Report Gordon63 September 9, 2021 12:51 PM BST

Anyone seriously think even on heavy that Frankel wouldn't have won the 2012 Arc?  Yes Sir Henry had every right to run (or not) Frankel but he was settling so much better as a 4yo, had beaten Cirrus des Aigles (albeit not that impressively) on his favourite soft ground, and as I said below Juddmonte for me was his best performance visually.  Doesn't distract from Frankel's greatness but would have loved to have seen him there.
Report Storm Alert September 9, 2021 1:25 PM BST
Not a race I care to remember having backed Orfevre ante post. I still quite don't know how he threw that race away through idling that bad.
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