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elisjohn
24 Jul 21 20:41
Joined:
Date Joined: 15 Jun 03
| Topic/replies: 17,054 | Blogger: elisjohn's blog
the whole world had heard about frankel and d brave even before their first run, yet trainers now havent a clue what theyve got, adayir was about 50/1 10 mins before derby, and seems to be a good un .
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Report windsor knot July 24, 2021 10:59 PM BST
probably because they had far more manageable teams of horses at the time and didn't have to rely on word via head lad , 2nd head lad or anyone else . imagine 200  brown horses poking their way round the yard every day . i would limit the amount of horses in each yard  . would therefore  direct some to smaller stables by default . no bad thing .
Report panama red July 24, 2021 11:12 PM BST
Bit of an odd one for me. You can usually rely on the market with Godolphin (and Appleby in particular) but Adayar seems to have genuinely taken them by surprise doing what he did in the Derby.
Report second again July 25, 2021 6:13 AM BST
Belmez one of Henrys King George winners won a maiden FTO @ 50/1.
Report Ramruma July 25, 2021 6:30 AM BST
I backed Belmez for the Derby after that. Of course, he was injured on the day but he'd beaten Derby winner Quest For Fame in the Chester Vase, and finished in front of him in Salsabil's Irish Derby so imo Hills should have paid out on the moral winner.
Report Movewiththetimes July 25, 2021 8:22 AM BST
because Sir Henry was simply the best.
Report careful eugene July 25, 2021 9:42 AM BST
Henry told Steve Cauthen to ride Suhaillie in the Racing Post Trophy back in the day when the whole yard knew Reference Point was going to be a champion
Report Movewiththetimes July 25, 2021 9:47 AM BST
Stable must of got some juicy prices for Reference Point Cool
Report Storm Alert July 25, 2021 10:12 AM BST
In the lead up to the Derby 1987 Derby Sir Henry had Legal Bid (won Lingfield trial) as well as Reference Point (won Dante) and Cauthen was undecided for a while. I'm sure I read somewhere at smoe stage that Sir Henry had a higher than average rate of 2yo horses not making it to the race track whilst trained by him. Possibly because horses were moved to other trainers if they looked no good? No evidence I am afraid so treat as anecdotal.

And they did know Reference Point was good, Louis Freedman the owner/breeder chaired a National Bus property meeting (Thatcher nationalised the industry) and was telling everybody willing to listen, to back it for the Derby.
Report Hayden July 25, 2021 10:36 AM BST
If you knew ( or thought you knew ) that Frankel would have an unbeaten record you could have had around 70/1 for the reinvested accumulator.

Anyone had it or know someone who had ?
Report sparrow July 25, 2021 11:24 AM BST
careful eugene 25 Jul 21 08:42 
Henry told Steve Cauthen to ride Suhaillie in the Racing Post Trophy back in the day when the whole yard knew Reference Point was going to be a champion




Remember that race very well with Suhaillie going off fav at 15/8 I think it was.
Report sparrow July 25, 2021 11:26 AM BST
His final two-year-old run saw him step up to Group One class in the William Hill Futurity at Doncaster. He was sent off 4 to 1 second favourite behind Henry Cecil's first string, Suhailie but ran out the five length winner from Bengal Fire, with Love The Groom in third. His win at Doncaster led to Reference Point being the highest rated European two-year-old of 1986
Report Lee Ho Fooks July 25, 2021 11:39 AM BST
Grundy was said to be catching pigeons at home before it had ever run & at the time Walwyn had a fair few above average ones to be able to tell.
Report second again July 25, 2021 11:39 AM BST
Before Reference Point ran FTO as a 2YO at Sandown Big Mac was on the tv saying if you fancied backing him for the Derby to back him now.After he finished 3rd a few journalists and tv presenters tore into Big Mac saying how silly it was to be talking about unraced 2yo's to be winning the Derby.After he won at Epsom silence reigned.Laugh
Report A_T July 25, 2021 11:46 AM BST
Cecil had plenty of wonder horses at home that never produced on raceday
Report Steamship July 25, 2021 1:02 PM BST
I remember that day at Sandown second again
Report 1st time poster July 25, 2021 1:21 PM BST
funny auld game racing pundits queuing up pre race to tell us love hadnt beaten anything
post race a horse getting the allowances beats love and a horse everyone beats in uk and is a world beater,now if love had won same people would still be saying hasnt beaten anything everyone in uk beats mishraff,
lucky spouting off love ran his race thats as good as he is
love likes firm ground, 12 fur,mishraff heavy 10 fur so love should never ever get closer to mishraff as yesterday if you believe lucky,does anyone really believe that
Report 1st time poster July 25, 2021 1:25 PM BST
40/45 yrs ago stoute.cecil used to share horseboxes sending their maidens to redcar for long distance races and in pig n whistle before racing their lads alwayts new which was better horse on day,they were rarely wrong,
what was that harwood horse indian something which dogs were barking months before it ran in a newmarket summer maiden started 2,s on about 40 yrs back
Report themightymac July 25, 2021 1:27 PM BST


Report Hayden July 25, 2021 1:29 PM BST
They look like a couple of dodgy characters from an episode of Endeavour.
Report second again July 25, 2021 1:49 PM BST
1st time poster,Was it Indian Ridge?
Report kkkatt July 25, 2021 1:53 PM BST
The biggest talking horse I had ever heard about was Killer Instinct. It duly got beat on its debut by Compton Admiral. In fairness Compton Admiral was later a Group 1 winner ( Eclipse I think), but I don`t think Killer Instinct ever won a race.
Report elisjohn July 25, 2021 1:54 PM BST
guy, always had a strong fav for the wood ditton.
Report Andriy July 25, 2021 1:56 PM BST
Indian Ridge was Elsworth, maybe Indian King.
Report workrider July 25, 2021 1:57 PM BST
Windsor, Henry had over 200 horses at one time ..
Report penzance July 25, 2021 2:03 PM BST
Killer Instinct ran in the Green & White stripe colours,
went off fav for a big h'cap,got stuffed,if I remember.
Report 1st time poster July 25, 2021 2:04 PM BST
indian king maybe seem to think red ,red/white colours maybe
killer instinct ended up fav for magnet cup much as i followed cecil horses rightly wouldnt touch that with a barge pole that day,i was there and all my mates backed it
Report sparrow July 25, 2021 2:07 PM BST
Yes Killer Instinct kkkatt was supposed to be unbeatable before it ever set foot on the racecourse.
Report Movewiththetimes July 25, 2021 2:12 PM BST
Killer Instinct won at notts 1/7 hacked up, came 5th of 15 in class 2 Handicap at York beaten 7 lengths.
Report Movewiththetimes July 25, 2021 2:13 PM BST
When 7/4F
Report 1st time poster July 25, 2021 2:14 PM BST
in hindsight killer instinct was never ever even getting in to contention in magnet cup but racecourse commentator probably clattermole or shouty man give it the big call out coming in to straight and the stands/ring erupted
Report elisjohn July 25, 2021 2:14 PM BST
York C2Hc 71K    1m2½f    GF    8-8    5/15 btn 7L Achilles 8-11    7/4F    K Fallon    98    105    101
15Jun99
Ascot rnd C13yG1 154K    1m    GF    9-0    4/11 btn 7¼L Sendawar 9-0    9/1    K Fallon    99    105    111
29May99
Kempton jub C13yL 14K    1m    GF    8-12    4/6 btn 2¾L Kalanisi 8-12    11/8J    K Fallon    99    98    101
07May99
Nottingham C43yMd 5K    1m    Fm    9-0    1/10 by 6L Intizaa 8-9    1/7F    K Fallon    —    70    97
17Apr99
Newbury str C43yMd 5K    1m    GF    9-0    2/13 btn 2L Alrassaam 9-0    2/5F    K Fallon    —    93    99

24Jul98
Ascot C42yMd 7K    7f    GF    9-0    2/5 btn 1L Compton Admiral 9-0    4/9F    M Kinane    —    97    99

did get beat by some top class horses fair play
Report onlooker July 25, 2021 2:57 PM BST
1st time poster 25 Jul 21 12:25

40/45 yrs ago stoute.cecil used to share horseboxes sending their maidens to redcar for long distance races and in pig n whistle before racing their lads alwayts new which was better horse on day,they were rarely wrong,

-------------------

Really! ...... Try telling that to Willie Thorne .... Who went skint BACKING them all. CryGrin


Another of the 'Snooker Players' used to phone me EVERY day saying ...


"Cliff"(Lines - Shergar's work-rider) says ... "This will Win ... that Will Win" etc  - and ...

"Frank" (Conlon - Cecil's chief work-rider) says ... "This will Win ... that Will Win" etc


Cliff, in particular, seemed to 'dine out' on having been Shergar's work-rider ... as he tipped everything that Walter 'threw a leg across'.... and I often used to query - indeed CHALLENGE - the received 'advice' -

- especially when the beast was something like a 3yo MAIDEN filly that had already been beaten 3 or 4 times - yet was still SHORT in the betting - because - 'Cliff says ....'

If ONLY Betfair had been going in those days .... I would have been LAYING them until to cows came home .... and probably to Willie Thorne.
Report DIFERENT GRAVY 12 July 25, 2021 3:42 PM BST
I knew Morley Street was top class 2 months before it made it's debut.
Report elisjohn July 25, 2021 3:46 PM BST
enjoyed that  post onlooker Wink
Report Rider July 25, 2021 5:12 PM BST
remember big mac being all over cecils reference point telling C4 viewers it was a "certainty" on its bow, it lost but he was on to something
Report Shanelee1966 July 25, 2021 5:41 PM BST
Willie Thorne failed to learn even the basic lessons dealing with certain sections of the racing world.

Shame really, as by all accounts a nice guy.
Report themightymac July 25, 2021 6:01 PM BST
In answer to the original question, I think they had a very very good stopwatch.
Report windsor knot July 25, 2021 7:08 PM BST
hi workrider , take your point but henry didn't have 200 when frankel arrived ... i still think owners, trainers are allowed too many . i believe in hong kong it is much more restricted although i understand there is a slightly smaller physical landscape there !...as an aside a multi  classic winning trainer in the uk once told a friend of mine he would give up training if a certain horse didnt win . it scraped home by a neck . on the other hand a certain n j henderson told me similar as i walked into stratford races one evening and it bolted up !
Report themightymac July 25, 2021 8:23 PM BST
John Porter, the greatest trainer that ever lived, said in his book that during a lifetime training he only sent out 3 horses that he thought were certainties and 2 of them got beat.
Report ONTHEBIT July 25, 2021 10:39 PM BST
DIFFERENT GRAVY 12

They knew what they had got alright - I remember it's debut well, 1988 was managing a bookies in Birmingham when it made its debut. On the morning of the race stranger walks into the shop and has £50 win on - so me and the assistant manager followed him and had a fiver each - won at 16/1!

Boy we got pissed that night!Happy

Couple of days later he comes to collect - leaves the shop and gets into a Black cab - he was obviously doing the rounds - they had it right off!

Wasn't you was it?....lol.
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