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posy
02 Jul 21 12:44
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Date Joined: 18 Oct 03
| Topic/replies: 14,350 | Blogger: posy's blog
Richard Hoiles has suggested racing ought to consider a radical rejig to the calendar that would see the Oaks and Derby run this Saturday at Epsom with the Eclipse taking place at Sandown the following day.

The ITV commentator was speaking to the Racing Post for a major feature in Sunday's newspaper in which several leading figures from the sport were asked whether it is time to rethink the structure of the Flat season, chiefly in light of the Derby's declining fortunes and the apparent success of last year's switch to a July date.

Sea The Stars in 2009 was the last Derby winner to finish the year having recorded the best worldwide Racing Post Rating of the season. The last ten had a peak RPR that was a cumulative 98lb below the champions in their given year compared to 50lb and 54lb in the two previous ten-year periods. Anthony Van Dyck is the only Derby winner since 2016 to have won another race.



While stressing he is not necessarily an advocate of a July Derby, Hoiles felt there was a case worth assessing.

"I love history more than most, but tradition for tradition's sake shouldn't be the sole barrier to change," he said.

"I do think the idea of moving the Derby to July has some merit. It brings into the equation the Royal Ascot and Goodwood contests, and if you had the Guineas in May and the Derby in July, a trainer would also have two months in which to teach a horse to stretch out, helped by a ten-furlong stepping stone.

"The current positioning of the Irish Derby shows that having a Derby in that position in the calendar isn't a massive negative. The Irish Derby would suffer from a clash, as would the Eclipse, but I would have the Derby and the Oaks both on the Saturday with the Eclipse then run on the Sunday.


Richard Hoiles: "No one fundamental reason for the idea to be shot down straight away"
Richard Hoiles: "No one fundamental reason for the idea to be shot down straight away"
Edward Whitaker (racingpost.com/photos)
"A July Derby would give trainers longer to establish horses in racing's consciousness. Following the Grand National it's always hard for the media to produce a population of 40 Flat horses that nobody has heard of, 38 of which will quickly disappear. By widening the window between the Guineas and the Derby, and making more relevance of some of the trials – perhaps with incentives linked to them – the public might have a better understanding of the horses."

Hoiles added: "All of these points make me think there are enough positives to contemplate it. I'm not saying I'm an advocate of a July Derby but there doesn't seem to be one fundamental reason for the idea to be shot down straight away."
Pause Switch to Standard View Hoiles suggests running Derby in JULY
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Report elisjohn July 2, 2021 1:49 PM BST
nothing really wrong in the derby as it is, just move it back 3 days
Report elisjohn July 2, 2021 1:54 PM BST
ps , its the last 2 months of the flat season that needs to really change imo,  thats a shambles
Report howard July 2, 2021 2:10 PM BST
shot down straight away no more reference point v mtoto  and the rest.  " the public might have a better understanding of the horses "  The wider public have little or no interest in racing whatever you do with it.
Report onlooker July 2, 2021 2:14 PM BST
Agreed - Far too much crammed into far to short a space of time from the St Leger meeting in mid-September to the Champions day - usually held on AWFUL GOING - in late October.

   what were the BHA thinking - and ruining Newmarket's (formerly) superb back-end fixture set-up, too

BHA seemed to think that because the French have Arc weekend then we should have 'super-duper' meeting, aswell.

All that has resulted in is chaos and dilution of contests.

Egotistical Twerps.
Report Rider July 2, 2021 2:30 PM BST
yep, much preferred the old format, QeII day at the end of september was probably my favourite day of the flat before rod street and co wanted to make changes
Report sixtwosix July 2, 2021 2:32 PM BST
ruining Newmarket's (formerly) superb back-end fixture set-up, too

Champions stake still seems a fraud at Ascot imo.

Champions Stakes , Ceserswitch , Jockey Club, Dewhurst was the best flat card of the season.....and the buffoons destoryed it.
Report jimnast July 2, 2021 2:33 PM BST
dickens hill,master willie,reference point,nashwan,sea the stars,golden horn,dancing brave,hawk wing and enable plus many more would not have run in the eclipse he should no better than to come out with such nonsense.


as elisjohn rightly says just bring it forward 3 days.
Report mrcombustible July 2, 2021 2:39 PM BST
very difficult to change dates as these races are part of the International pattern .
Report jimnast July 2, 2021 2:40 PM BST
626 i use to go when the dewhurst was on the friday it was 3 superb days.
Report jimnast July 2, 2021 2:44 PM BST
which reminds me the powers that be decided it would be good to have the middle park and the dewhurst on the same day for a few years meaning the middle park winner could not run in the dewhurst Crazymind you that would have saved me a few quid when dream ahead was a bigger price than frankel in 2010 after hosing up in the middle park Cry
Report jimnast July 2, 2021 2:49 PM BST
mr c

nothing against ascot in fact i love the place and whilst we cant really change the pattern i do think the autumn fixtures at newmarket and ascot should go back to how they were,fillies mile and royal lodge at newmarket and champion stakes at ascot not for me.

some of the races i now get mixed up when and where they are run.
Report posy July 2, 2021 2:49 PM BST
Some of us remember one of the greatest races ever run Royal Palace,Sir Ivor, Taj Dewan
Report jimnast July 2, 2021 2:50 PM BST
Surprised

good afternoon posy no sandown ?
Report posy July 2, 2021 3:19 PM BST
Hi jimnast , no haven't ventured back to a racecourse yet....
Report jimnast July 2, 2021 3:21 PM BST
i have found it fine posy of to haydock tonight probably would not on a normal friday night.
Report posy July 2, 2021 3:33 PM BST
Good luck tonight ;shouldn't think it'll be too raucous ! I'm taking the plunge on Wednesday as have tickets for Wembley.
Report foxy July 2, 2021 3:51 PM BST
Sounds great posy hope you have a great time,and your not surrounded by eastern block people from Ukraine and the Czech Republic.

Jimnast
Report tony6499 July 2, 2021 3:53 PM BST
Messing with dates is what has ruined things, just more change for changes sake. You could run 6 sellers on a Saturday meeting and the majority of punters attending wouldn't care
Report elisjohn July 2, 2021 4:06 PM BST
the 4 days when cheveley park on tuesday, middle park thursday, and few weeks later the friday dewhurst, in between the sales , superb,   and the qe11 day at ascot like prev poster said, was fabulous days racing , wasnt the royal lodge on the friday then as well ?
Report jumper3 July 2, 2021 4:12 PM BST
I've always felt the season is just getting going and then in quick succession we have the Derby followed by Royal Ascot. Would love to see both in July if I was honest.
Report foxy July 2, 2021 4:15 PM BST
No elisjohn the royal lodge was always a Saturday my first was ela mana mou definitely on a Saturday,


Totally agree about the Tuesday to Saturday format at the rowley mile the Wednesday was always good fun.
Report foxy July 2, 2021 4:16 PM BST
Jumper

When would you run the eclipse,the July meeting and goodwood?
Report elisjohn July 2, 2021 4:17 PM BST
thanks foxy, i remember ,the race i mean was the hoover fillies mile , thats the friday one wasnt it, oh so sharp won it .
Report foxy July 2, 2021 4:24 PM BST
Can’t remember about the fillies mile to be honest but I did see culture vulture win at ascot on a Saturday,before it was called the hoover fillies mile it was the green shield fillies mile (the stamps)then the Argos mile when it took over green shield.
Report elisjohn July 2, 2021 4:25 PM BST
someone said on the racing forum about a month ago, that the aussie in charge of bha, cant recall his name, was the one that wanted to cram all the best races in this country  to the saturday  , yet their biggest race the melbourne cup is on a tuesdayGrin
Report elisjohn July 2, 2021 4:25 PM BST
ah green shield stampsWink
Report elisjohn July 2, 2021 4:38 PM BST
couldnt find oh so sharps  on you tube, but you might like this one in 1987,   everything from commentary to presenters and the winner   sheer class.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wM57-6CztTY
Report foxy July 2, 2021 4:48 PM BST
I remember watching her win the muisidora and thinking she was a near on certainty for the oaks,the st leger has found many out including her.
Report foxy July 2, 2021 4:50 PM BST
The jockey and trainer were also sheer class.
Report differentdrum July 2, 2021 4:59 PM BST
Perhaps this might have been suggested before? How many years has the Derby been the first week in June? If there was something wrong surely someone with possibly even more intelligence than Hoiles might have sorted it by now.

If you want a later classic you have the Irish Derby.

Sometimes people come up with ideas purely to fill a column. This is probably one of them.
Report jumper3 July 2, 2021 5:10 PM BST

Jul 2, 2021 -- 10:16AM, foxy wrote:


Jumper When would you run the eclipse,the July meeting and goodwood?


I would put them in August with York then in September and yes, the Leger and Newmarket meetings in late September/October.

Report posy July 2, 2021 5:11 PM BST
I'm not a 'progressive' person and dislike the messing around with traditional fixtures unless of course there's a permanent or temporary racecourse closure.  I used to enjoy the Royal Lodge at Ascot ;first went to the meeting when Remand won (a long time ago !). The messing around with the fixture list generally and Ascot and Newmarket races specifically, together with the weekend running of the Derby and Oaks have in my view been detrimental to flat racing and have if anything accelerated the decline in the sports' popularity.
The old maxim 'If it ain't broke don't fix it' has been ignored by those to whom the sport was entrusted.
Report elisjohn July 2, 2021 5:18 PM BST
the derby wednesday, coronation friday and the oaks saturday was fantastic week,not only that the usual tues/ thurs  chester and  dante meeting changed to we/ fri ( why ),
Report foxy July 2, 2021 5:19 PM BST
The York regulars would not like a September ebor meeting and champions day would end up been run around the Mackeson meeting .


Differentdrum brings up the Irish derby a July derby would rule out the chance of a horse doing the double like many greats of the past have.

Unless you run the Irish derby on the last day of punchestown.
Report foxy July 2, 2021 5:21 PM BST
Thursday July cup and Wednesday ebor should be brought back immediately.
Report foxy July 2, 2021 5:22 PM BST
Jumper

Where would you fit the King George arc weekend in ?
Report elisjohn July 2, 2021 5:27 PM BST
the main thing for me , is there is too many group1 in uk and ireland and france  these days and perhaps the eclipse, king george and some other main races get by passed for easier pickings .
Report duncan idaho July 2, 2021 5:28 PM BST
the Derby does seem a bit 'broke' though when you've got maidens who even enthusiasts have barely heard of making the frame, as in the last 2 years...the race is a guess-up these days, far cry from when horses like Nijinsky, Mill Reef, Shergar etc were obliging for their big bands of followers
Report foxy July 2, 2021 5:32 PM BST
Very true elisjohn the King George more often than not was the race of the season,nowadays the judmonte and Irish champion stakes are usually the best.

Anyway after taking 2 hours to do 20 miles that’s me take care everyone.
Report MJK July 2, 2021 5:49 PM BST

Jul 2, 2021 -- 10:38AM, elisjohn wrote:


couldnt find oh so sharps

Report MJK July 2, 2021 5:51 PM BST

Jul 2, 2021 -- 10:38AM, elisjohn wrote:


couldnt find oh so sharps

Report MJK July 2, 2021 5:53 PM BST
Her Guineas win the worst commentary in the history of the sport. In hindsight Hoode was an awful commentator,  even worse than Thompson for 'the favourite ' ad nauseam,  more often than not saying it instead of the horse's name.
Report MJK July 2, 2021 5:53 PM BST
*Goode
Report elisjohn July 2, 2021 5:59 PM BST
sorry i meant couldnt find her fillies mile win, i actualy thought that goode was very good until the puns , but MJK please no one is worse than thommo, shouty man is next worseGrin
Report windsor knot July 3, 2021 12:15 AM BST
the derby and its ultimate  importance, i'm afraid, belong to another day . thats why many of the winners retire to stud at quite pitiful fees. thankfully a 3 y o winning in early summer is not considered the height of its powers. or it shouldnt be . its stil a fabulous race in its own right  , but the perspective has changed. moving it a month is not going to matter .
Report brain dead jockeys July 3, 2021 1:52 AM BST
dump epsom. terrible track. run coronation cup at newbury on same day as lockhinge........run derby and oaks at royal ascot replacing those 2 g2 3yo 12 races...........ALL PROBLEMS SOLVED. no need whatsoever for that derby meeting.
Report verbotene liebe July 3, 2021 7:13 AM BST
As others have suggested, return it to the first Wednesday of the month where it will have it's own platform again, away from the cluttered Saturday sporting maze. I've no idea how Hoiles on one hand can claim to be a traditionalist, while on the other call for a July Epsom Derby.. I think these chaps get a bit above themselves and with some strange appointments in positions of power, you can't rule out further changes to the calendar that would do even more damage than that already done to the closing couple of months. I doubt the likes of rowing boat lady, who is all for continued 'modernisation'  would care too much if the fixture list was rearranged into something unrecognisable.
Report LoyalHoncho July 3, 2021 10:16 AM BST
Without "modernisation" we would still have concrete posts and deadly galvanised running rails, standing starts, etc; etc; etc;.  Change is often for the greater good so shouldn't be easily discounted just because it isn't in line with tradition.  I hadn't thought about the Derby but I have often thought that both Guineas should be put back a fortnight or so ( which I know would necessitate a change in the Derby too ).  Late springs and the resultant bad weather must be hell in preparing a top class animal for these races.
I agree with the commenter who advocated dumping Epsom though.  The weekend running of the race has long since reduced Epsom to a needless exercise, in my view.
Report brain dead jockeys July 3, 2021 9:28 PM BST
we need a proper triple crown which should be dante run 4 weeks after guinneas and derby 4 weeks after dante. yes make the dante a g1.......how many guinneas winners have run in the leger in last 30 years?.......maybe camelot........derby winners to run in leger?........camelot.........its a joke but they cant change things for the better can they. running 3 year olds around 12f at epsom in early june attracts a staying type........recent winners have been dire. most of these winners are stayers but they wont run them in the leger and run them in 10f races where they come nowhere....skipping the king george which is a disaster...................the whole flat season needs re giggiing but the irish champion stakes meeting has stolen very important dates.
Report A_T July 4, 2021 11:23 AM BST
should keep Epsom as it is - history of the sport is important if we homogenize all the events we won't know which are the true greats like Mill Reef and Sea The Stars. the French have rendered their Prix du Jockey Club to an afterthought for milers who don't stay 12f - any prestige of the race has totally gone.

the Champion Stakes used to be a unique event - straight 10f - but of course everything has to be sacrificed on the altar of Ascot
Report Gordon63 July 4, 2021 1:30 PM BST
dump epsom. terrible track. run coronation cup at newbury on same day as lockhinge........run derby and oaks at royal ascot replacing those 2 g2 3yo 12 races...........ALL PROBLEMS SOLVED. no need whatsoever for that derby meeting.

Royal Ascot is the complete anti-thesis of what the Derby was (and should be again - start by returning to first Wednesday in June) - an absolute no no for me, in any case Newbury and York are much fairer and better courses than Ascot


the derby and its ultimate  importance, i'm afraid, belong to another day . thats why many of the winners retire to stud at quite pitiful fees. thankfully a 3 y o winning in early summer is not considered the height of its powers. or it shouldnt be . its stil a fabulous race in its own right  , but the perspective has changed. moving it a month is not going to matter .

The most dominant stallion of the past 20 years won the Derby, it's down to trainers/owners to identify and target the proper type of horse for an early June Classic, reducing the distance to 1m2f (a la French) or transferring to a different course, won't make the race (or the stallion prospects) any the better. 

moving to July, on top of Eclipse, July Meeting, KG and not forgetting the obnoxious 'super saturday' is tinkering for the sake of it
Report The Knight July 4, 2021 1:47 PM BST
Instead of mucking around with more possible changes, why do not the BHA actually look back a few years and try to copy things from the golden periods of racing. For example, the second half of the 1980's take some beating so why not emulate how the fixture list looked then?

At the same time, stop trying to find ways of bringing more and more people into the tracks (mostly through listening to marketing 'guru's') but instead simply let the racing speak for itself.

Emulate the 1980's and more people might return to the track, as well as new people attracted by the quality of the sport. Instead, it is being allowed to spiral downwards in the hope that it will become more attractive to more people. It won't.
Report TOP3MAN July 4, 2021 1:51 PM BST
Dont worry about the calender, worry more about the prize money on offer.
Report 1st time poster July 4, 2021 2:02 PM BST
noticed yesterday other than the fellow in black tee shirt running round pre/post race taking photo,s,there was about 40/50 people near the rails who actually had their backs turned to the horse which the racing post today is debating is the best horse in the world,clearly to the majoprity of modern racegoers the quality or race/horses has little to do with their day out
Report MJK July 4, 2021 3:13 PM BST
It would be great to go back to a time when a commentator was just that. Nowadays commentators think they know everything about every facet of the game.
Report elisjohn July 5, 2021 8:09 AM BST
mjk, that why peter osullivan was by miles superior to any other commentator,
Report The Knight July 5, 2021 10:22 AM BST
100% agree about O'Sullivan. Along with cricket's Richie Benaud, surely the best commentators on sport of all time. And what characteristic did they share?


The ability to say nothing when there was nothing to be said! Today, almost all commentators and pundits drive me mad by trying to tell us what the winning horse will do next, and where it will go to do it, as soon as the animal passes the post. Just shut up for a few seconds, please. Add to that the general inane chatter and I end up longing for the days of old when people had a decent attention span, not that of a demented fruit fly!
Report Rider July 5, 2021 11:35 AM BST
love it when commentators doubt whether a horse travelling strongly will go through with his effort only to see it saunter 3 lengths clear, every time without exception they will make the face saving comment "what a brilliant ride that was", just call the facts but we are not going back to those days and we all know it
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