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10 Apr 21 16:51
Date Joined: 13 Jun 12
| Topic/replies: 10,046 | Blogger: StillLearning's blog
any chance you can give some homegrown owners & trainers a chance to win some big pots?
Pause Switch to Standard View Dear Mr UK handicapper
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Report geoff m April 10, 2021 5:55 PM BST
O leary wont be happy when it finally dawns on him how well hcapped the Irish horses are.
Report foxy April 10, 2021 6:04 PM BST
I wonder if the competitive nature of the races the winner runs in has helped today .
Report ashleigh April 10, 2021 6:05 PM BST
irish 10 out of the first 11 finishers, says it all.
Report foxy April 10, 2021 6:13 PM BST
I wonder if there is too much racing in the uk allowing horse to run in weak races to often.
Report sageform April 10, 2021 6:18 PM BST
The first 3 were clear by 20 lengths from the rest so an extra 14lb on all of them would have given the same result. For some reason, this year, GB horses are not finishing their races as well as Irish ones, Thyme Hill was the exception but he didn't really have any Irish rivals. I hope that it is a general malaise affecting the GB yards as if it is not, the same thing will keep happening. Nicky Henderson was very fortunate to win twice at both Cheltenham and Aintree with the same 2 horses as the opposition was extremely poor apart from Envoi Allen who fell. Shishkin is good but has yet to be tested against a half way decent handicapper never mind a Grade 1 2 mile chaser. I could not rate him more than 160 on what he has beaten so far.
Report cloone river April 10, 2021 6:31 PM BST
Should Shishkin be rated 169 for a novice?
Report onlooker April 10, 2021 6:34 PM BST
It is not simply Handicap Weights.

Report HistoricWarwick April 10, 2021 6:35 PM BST
Not sure why it is the handicapper at fault when the issue lies more in the quality of horses, trainers and volume of racing as well as graded races this side of the pond. The top yards are on the decline over here aside from Skelton IMO.  Nicholls more focussed on picking up Saturday handicaps and a trainers championship than take on the top dogs and Henderson's yard has issues all over the place.  Long may it continue from a punting perspective!
Report Theoneandonly April 10, 2021 6:39 PM BST
Something is definitely happening when you look at the amount of Irish finishers yo UK ones. Is it just bad luck? Lot more callers from the UK and not seeing the trip out. Are the UK horses just high enough rated and so the owners are saying run it in the national even though they might not be suited by it... where as the Irish are only sending them over the water if they have a very good chance and know they will enjoy jumping the fences and stay?
Report cloone river April 10, 2021 6:39 PM BST
Its like saying Third time Lucki would be ahead of Belfast Banter.MYTHICAL MATHEMATICAL NONSENSE.LaughLaugh
Report CROPSICK April 10, 2021 6:40 PM BST
English horses are generally too old, 14 of the english runners today were 11/12 year olds who should really be competing in veterans races, but because there ratings are so high they can get a run in the national keeping a lot of younger horses out which maybe have a few pounds in hand.
Report CROPSICK April 10, 2021 6:42 PM BST
Thats right Theoneandonly,Irish horses aimed at the race generally are at their peak and have improvement left in them.
Report Theoneandonly April 10, 2021 6:43 PM BST
Yeah think you're right Cropsick... lot of owners running to have a runner in the grand national. Sometimes possibly not wanting to risk then when they were younger and had a better chance of winning.
Report workrider April 10, 2021 6:45 PM BST
If one looks close enough at the decline of British runners one will notice that  its been happening at a rapid rate of knots in the last few years. British or more to the point English racing has been spread to thin yet the same major races are contested time after time by tiny fields . The British handicapper has a set of figures to work with and has to come up with ratings, the sad thing is he's over rating your big races by several pounds most years .
Report Theoneandonly April 10, 2021 6:45 PM BST
Does anyone know why Secret Reprieve was N/r was it the ground or something wrong?
Report irishone April 10, 2021 6:46 PM BST
The u k handicapper has not got a clue
Report irishone April 10, 2021 6:48 PM BST
What really gets me laughing
Isthe idiots on here
Coming on and going on about official ratings
The u k handicapper has no clue
Report HistoricWarwick April 10, 2021 6:50 PM BST

Apr 10, 2021 -- 12:45PM, Theoneandonly wrote:

Does anyone know why Secret Reprieve was N/r was it the ground or something wrong?

Didn't make the cut

Report CROPSICK April 10, 2021 6:52 PM BST
Didnt make the cut coz a lot of bloody old plodders still have a high enough rating to keep him out
Report Theoneandonly April 10, 2021 6:54 PM BST
Thanks very much
Report casemoney April 10, 2021 7:00 PM BST
Report workrider April 10, 2021 7:01 PM BST
LaughLaugh Good man Case...
Report Steamship April 10, 2021 7:29 PM BST
The thing is the old plodder Blaklion who would have kept Secret Reprieve out was the best British horse.
Report onlooker April 10, 2021 7:46 PM BST
Leaving aside supercilious statements ... of "ALL IRISH ORSE TO BE ALLOCATED 12 STONE"

Had that been the case in practice - The RESULT would have been pretty much the SAME.

MINELLA would have still Won - But by Half a length - instead og 6 and a half

The 2nd Balko, and the 3rd carried identical weights, today - So they would have still been 2nd and 3rd

4th  Burrows Saint would have been 4 lengths nearer to the 3rd - But still 15 lengths behind  Any Second Now

5th Falco would have finished 10 lengths Worse than he did

... and -  the First UK Horse Home - BLAKLION - being (theoretically) 25 lbs better off with the Winner, and 19 lbs better with the 2nd and 3rd ...

Would have Finished 4th (and best UK Horse) ... [b]BUT - Still BEATEN 11 lengths by MINELLA.[/b) carrying an imaginary "12 STONE".
Report workrider April 10, 2021 7:55 PM BST
Onlooker as we've been saying this past while , time the British handicapper realises how poor the G1s are over there the better for ye lot...
Report slickster April 10, 2021 8:00 PM BST
Are we meant to believe ALL the Irish handicappers have 15-20 lbs in hand? Are the handicappers getting brown envelopes? The 1st 10 out of 11 needs some explaining. And then the magical "diets" they're on. It's like spinning a coin 100 times and miraculously it's landing on the irish side 95 times. Clearly too many things not adding up.
Report Dr Gonzo April 10, 2021 8:11 PM BST
Hogan’s Height for J Snowden was the 2nd best placed British horse, finishing in 12th place. Won the Grand Sefton nicely 18 months ago, but last seen beaten 100+ lengths at Cheltenham.

Something is not right with British racing - be it the handicapper, the quality of racing, or a combination of both.
Report TOP3MAN April 10, 2021 8:59 PM BST
Watch the Gold Cup again and stop the race 5 out.

What u will see there is the apparent gulf in the fitness of the Irish horses to the UK horses.

Frodon had been putting it up to them all going out on 2nd circuit and applying pressure, pause it at that point and then look at the irish horses to the uk horses, frodon hadn't put a foot wrong and for all his effort he had the UK horses under pressure, every Irish runner is full of running like it's a hack canter, jockeys are sat motionless. Forward it on 2 fences, the irish just cruise pass Frodon, the first uk horse to get to frodon who was a spent force was after the last. The irish left that horse behind 3 out without no fuss.

So many irish horses are running over their UK counterparts, u ask the question, what's going on in these bubbles that is making them so full of running.cant be a case of the UK based horses all have gone to the well one to many times. The domination isnt just the results, its the manner of the domination, they are literally like a lion toying with their food
Report onlooker April 10, 2021 9:15 PM BST
Indeed - It defies Logic - no matter how much crowing the Irish contingent do on here.

the simple Fact is .... So many (Uk) 'Top Horses' - simply cannot ALL have 'fallen off a Cliff' - ALL at the SAME TIME.

It is not dissimilar a situation  to...

ALL the 'Top- Teams' in the Premier League - ALL - suddenly being beaten 6-0 - week in week out.

Football would not try to explain it all away by saying ....

'Southampton, West Brom, Brighton, Fulham are  ALL far FITTER than the 'Top Teams'

Something is simply 'NOT adding up here'.
Report windsor knot April 10, 2021 10:15 PM BST
cropsick at 17.40, workrider at 17.45 making excellent points . i know its not like for like but lets look at the national winner as a novice chaser in ireland . 4 novice runs , 31 opponents . shishkin today ran in his 5th novice chase . faced a total of 17 opponents . well odds on in all races . rarely , if ever , meeting a rival within a stone of the english handicappers mark . regardless of how fast a time he clocks which one do you think might be able to up their game in a battle ? yes , i realise this is simplistic but it is an example of how english horses are trained and campaigned . if cheltenham was a humiliation but only because the irish horses were better handicapped ( and i would have some agreement there ) today was worse because english horses could not even finish the race horses running, competing  on soft/ heavy ground all winter there possibly frolicking on  lovely spring ground at england , pulled out at the drop of a hat on soft ground to wait for the next easy target . i doubt this is the full , correct and only reason for the chelt/ aintree results but i suspect it is a factor .
Report harry callaghan April 10, 2021 10:16 PM BST
I still find it funny that no one questions these horses speed/endurance and the ability to repeat it, there seems no over the top with these horses thats my question all the time. They keep repeating and improving after looking like they are exposed.

balko des flos a 2m4f horse at his best. Now is staying 4m2f after not running a race For over 3 years.

The winner has never looked a stayer yet stays all day

The third is blundering badly then stops to a walk when hampered, then just picks up as if nothing has happened

It’s like getting in the ring with Ivan drago...I still don’t know how Rocky did it.

If people want to talk about handicapping I’ve rated these British horses nearly 20-25lbs behind the Irish in certain races, so yes the British handicapper is a mile out but so are all the ratings if these horses performances are believable

I mean has anyone seen the ratings for the bumper today from the racing post, it’s miles out to where I’d rate them.

Thank feck I’m done with the jumpers.
Report elisjohn April 10, 2021 10:24 PM BST
yes harry , and itll start again now with coolmore horses on the flat
Report windsor knot April 10, 2021 10:25 PM BST
harry , i've read your previous posts and understand that you are wary of some areas of training in ireland . but how do you explain the failure of english trainers to even get their horses to finish today's race ? can they not jump , or are too old or what ?
Report cloone river April 10, 2021 10:29 PM BST
Was they any course records broken at Cheltenham or Aintree this year?The time for this years national was slow for the going.
Report casemoney April 10, 2021 10:45 PM BST
Punting for anyone not  involved with Irish form  , is really a no go at Chelts and add the National to the list , have a look at the Irish National Result ,tells you all you need to Know , De Bromhead has hardly had a winner in Eire since Cheltenham YET come the BIG  Day cometh the orses
not problem with trainers targeting big races ..
HARrY spot on the orses are suddenly becomming pegasus Laugh
Report harry callaghan April 10, 2021 11:04 PM BST
Windsor I didn’t actually rate the English horses that much tbh today...more to do with going than anything else. And they are not well treated. I think even if Evan Williams horse had got in he would of struggled on the going but couldn’t be sure

The betting told you none of them had much chance anyway but destroyed all the same

That isn’t my point as you may know. I do have a problem with how British horses are being rated, as I agree with some about the uncompetitive nature in England at the moment but that is to do with lack of quality over here. However that aside Irish horses are showing me to much in regards endurance and performance either speed or stamina, hence my reasons for finishing taking an interest anymore in jumpers. My ratings don’t stack up anymore and I struggle with Irish runners on the flat as well. Personally I think it’s rife and second nature.

That horse that won the stayers hurdle was amazing. Arguably the best stayers hurdle winner in the history of the race. Fast fractions and fast finish. Be interesting next season if he can repeat it or like others fall off the face of the earth

I called a man at the BHA about the ratings but he was clueless

Anyway I’m praying on hair testing, hormone testing, as these horses are clearly getting the treatments before being trained as the improvement is unbelievable to say the least

Horses already under performing the Cesareswitch mare and the cadran mare ...Chuck the form book in the bin its pointless
Report Bindaree April 10, 2021 11:42 PM BST
Ballyoptic, Definitly Red, Lake View Lad, Vieux Lion Rouge, Double Shuffle: all horses that have tried and shown not to be suited to the fences or/and non stayers, yet they still enter them. Throw in Potters Corner one race in a chase this season, Ok Corral one race pulled up Give Me a Copper 2 races and pulled up in one. Is that the handicappers fault that rubbish like that is entered. Irish racing is more competitive and the trainers over here look for easy pickings all the time. I do think it was a disgrace to enter Anibale Fly, one race in a year and tailed off after 2 jumps.
Report windsor knot April 10, 2021 11:48 PM BST
ok harry . i respect your opinion on the ' irish ' improvers . my god  i hope you are wrong about ' rife ' .  . we may never know possibly . one thing though . i've mentioned this on another thread .. can you remember any irish n h  trainer saying almost proudly that there were jumpimg problems so sent the horse to hen or yogi . they are supposed to be top trainers in england but despatch their horses off to another parish ...erm, to jump better . unbelievable .
Report Ibrahima Sonko April 10, 2021 11:52 PM BST
The problem in the uk is that 130 horses are beating each other and then end on a rating of 150+ for winning, which they are not.

Everytime a horse wins in the uk the handicapper will put him up by silly numbers even if beat nothing or their was a overrated horse close by. A horse winning might mean he has run to his mark and the others have not.
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