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maleuk01.
13 Mar 21 11:48
Joined:
Date Joined: 16 Jun 05
| Topic/replies: 4,857 | Blogger: maleuk01.'s blog
Never backed anything in the race.

Seemed odd though, held up, looking to be boxed in, gap opened horse started to look like had a chance then no real effort at the business end.

11/10 out to 9/2.
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Report Sergeant Cecil March 13, 2021 11:57 AM GMT

Mar 13, 2021 -- 5:55AM, the dealer wrote:


What I'm saying if it was an 8/1 chance with no drift, there would be little comment


But markets are hugely significant in predicting the performance of a horse, so it's a flawed comparison.

Report the dealer March 13, 2021 11:58 AM GMT
Are they, plenty drifters win every day
Report the dealer March 13, 2021 11:59 AM GMT
Must be easy money laying all these market drifters
Report Sergeant Cecil March 13, 2021 11:59 AM GMT
How many drift from 11/10 to 9/2 a day?
Report Hayden March 13, 2021 12:02 PM GMT
Agree with Tom to a large general degree , it's like reading the final page of a novel first then all the earlier pages seem easy to fill in.

On the point of the drift , we practically always seem to believe that the tissue price is gospel and any deviation from that needs an explanation , in some instances the SP will be far nearer the true odds following the horse put in at far too short odds for a variety of reasons.

As for it deemed the form horse that seems to be the tissue opinion but the only thing certain about reading form is that it's extremely subjective.

Good luck today all    Happy
Report 11kv March 13, 2021 12:02 PM GMT
Wasn't meant to win or place today and Ryan was part of that plan.That is my opinion.
Report Sergeant Cecil March 13, 2021 12:03 PM GMT
Although having seen it again I would disagree that nobody would have said anything if it was an 8/1 shot. Never in the drive position on it, hit it once, started easing it down with half a furlong to run.
Report DancingBraveTheBest March 13, 2021 12:03 PM GMT
Does the integrity of uk horseracing no good at all, Ryan seems to never ride out for best possible placing (as in the rules) unless he thinks he has a winning chanceSad
Report the dealer March 13, 2021 12:04 PM GMT
It was a huge drift, although the price it was put in was very short and plenty imo would want to take it on. Was it measly others followed when they saw the drift ?
Do I think in a million years he stopped it, no I don't. Did something else make it drift so alarmingly, I simply don't know.
You would hope the powers that be would have a look who wanted to lay it at the bigger prices.

Maybe the odd one SC not 3 or 4 threads
Report 11kv March 13, 2021 12:05 PM GMT
Maybe overbet because it was Ryan and the drift was the true price, but horse and rider are capable of much better...
Report Barton Bank March 13, 2021 12:06 PM GMT
That looked horrendous. Was half expecting a tack issue to be reported. Be interesting to see if the ride is investigated if not.
Report the dealer March 13, 2021 12:08 PM GMT
Welcome back BB hope all is well
Report Barton Bank March 13, 2021 12:09 PM GMT
I'm good thanks, don't bother posting on her much but as soon as I saw that ride I was interested to gauge the reaction.
Report Barton Bank March 13, 2021 12:10 PM GMT
Here, not her!
Report Sergeant Cecil March 13, 2021 12:11 PM GMT
https://twitter.com/AtTheRaces/status/1370704994425581570

I'd watch it again, Dealer. Look at the postures of the other jockeys compared to Moore.

I totally agree it was too short at 11/10. It was probably a 2s shot but no bigger than that. When these drifts happen I always look at what factors could contribute to it. All I can find as a 'negative' is the trip, although even then that's subjective as he's a keen goer with plenty of pace who might have enjoyed dropping back having clocked good sectional times in the past. In terms of factors that cause a horse to be short he ticked most of the boxes:

* top jockey/trainer
* course form
* most tipped in the press
* highest rated on Topspeed, RPR and Timeform
* Timeform 'Horse In Focus'
* in form

So there's not a lot there to lay him on apart from taking a view that the price was too short against a decent field. At 11/10 I can get behind that. At 9/2, not so much.

As I say, if the BHA are looking into these rides - and who was laying the horse - then they are not fit for purpose. Even if you don't agree the ride was suspect, these are surely the exact type of cases they should be investigating.
Report beccaboo March 13, 2021 12:15 PM GMT
The real crux of the debate is did he ride under the rules ie push horses out to the line, the answer is no. A reason may surface but it looked bad, place betting Ryan is like other good jocks Eddery and Dettori,
comes with a wealth warning.
Report Sergeant Cecil March 13, 2021 12:22 PM GMT
Agreed there. Obviously there are exceptions here, but if your horse finishes sixth and you've hit it once then something isn't quite right with that.
Report the dealer March 13, 2021 12:22 PM GMT
Big difference imo Joe, not riding out for a place, rather than deliberately getting it beat.
Report the dealer March 13, 2021 12:23 PM GMT
To becca ^
Report 11kv March 13, 2021 12:23 PM GMT
Same thing imo
Report Sergeant Cecil March 13, 2021 12:24 PM GMT

Mar 13, 2021 -- 6:23AM, 11kv wrote:


Same thing imo


I agree, particularly as he's drifted to what some people would have considered to be a "great each-way bet" at 5s.

Report the dealer March 13, 2021 12:27 PM GMT
Someone deliberately stopping a horse and dropping hands or not riding out for a place the same, can't have that ever,
Report the dealer March 13, 2021 12:28 PM GMT
Only my opinion
Report Barton Bank March 13, 2021 12:28 PM GMT
He's not asked the horse for an effort, simple as that. The ride should be looked at by the stewards regardless of the betting patterns.
Report swiftynifty March 13, 2021 12:32 PM GMT
I backed the horse IR because of how well he was apparently travelling. He was short of room on a couple of occasions up the straight and Moore is not going to manufacture a gap in a poxy Wolverhampton race at 11.45 in the morning. But that's like a lot of jockeys in the small races, back them at your peril, but nothing sinister imo, despite the drift.
Report 11kv March 13, 2021 12:32 PM GMT
I like Ryan and you know what your getting, some of the rides he gives horses are fantastic but others are way down the bottom end of poor very rarely in between.By the way no bet for me as the drift was worrying...
Report Sergeant Cecil March 13, 2021 12:36 PM GMT

Mar 13, 2021 -- 6:32AM, swiftynifty wrote:


I backed the horse IR because of how well he was apparently travelling. He was short of room on a couple of occasions up the straight and Moore is not going to manufacture a gap in a poxy Wolverhampton race at 11.45 in the morning. But that's like a lot of jockeys in the small races, back them at your peril, but nothing sinister imo, despite the drift.


What planet are you on? There was room at every stage, they were all over the track.

Report swiftynifty March 13, 2021 12:40 PM GMT
Cecil, there was room if he looking for it but he wasn't bothering at that time in the morning, the ride was pathetic. That's a big difference from insinuating a multi millionaire jockey stopped the horse to make a few quid for some fiddlers.
Report Barton Bank March 13, 2021 12:41 PM GMT
I completely concur with those who say that the horse was not short of room.
Report beccaboo March 13, 2021 12:41 PM GMT
Ryan is a champion jockey and most certainly does not need the money for stopping a horse. He does unfortunately put himself up for criticism by handling horses tenderly. As us armchair jockeys never do anything wrong, its tough to take when you lose cash because of this.Imo the horse was not ridden out to the line BUT was not stopped by the jockey (thin line).
Report GEORGE.B March 13, 2021 12:42 PM GMT
Given how the race panned out and his position relative to the first two home, it wasn't a negative to be held up. However, he didn't get a clear run from the home bend until inside the final furlong, and although the gap eventually came, it wasn't there for long and the head on clearly shows that under a left handed drive, the winner came across in front of Moore, which I think Moore anticipated and is why there was only one reminder.

Imo the evidence of the replay shows, not clear run from the home bend until inside the final furlong, and again when the winner comes across him.
Report the dealer March 13, 2021 12:46 PM GMT
Looking at it back i really don't think it was that bad,
Report swiftynifty March 13, 2021 12:55 PM GMT
the dealer, don't fuel the flames!
Report punchestown March 13, 2021 1:08 PM GMT
He was never remotely interested in getting involved in that race at any stage,that's the long and short of it.Like all jockeys their posture and body language through a race tells you everything you need to know.
Report posy March 13, 2021 1:14 PM GMT
I'd backed it to place when it was around the 1.8 mark .Only just now got to see the race and to be absolutely fair I don't think Host would necessarily have placed even if Moore had given it a proper ride however it is shocking that the Stewards didn't have him in to hear why he gave up so early.
Report Sergeant Cecil March 13, 2021 1:15 PM GMT

Mar 13, 2021 -- 7:08AM, punchestown wrote:


He was never remotely interested in getting involved in that race at any stage,that's the long and short of it.Like all jockeys their posture and body language through a race tells you everything you need to know.


Agreed. I appreciate racing is all about opinions, but I find it incredible people could watch that and think "yeah, that was fine", particularly in the context of the market move.

Report jamesdean March 13, 2021 1:15 PM GMT
Looked like he wasnt too fussed and the horse itself doesnt always put it in either, 5 seconds out of 10 aw runs says it all. There will be worse today

Can we please stop the "he's a multi millionaire so why would he stop one" boll0cks though, as if the top earning jocks are immune
from skulduggery
Report pablo-fanque March 13, 2021 1:17 PM GMT
https://twitter.com/AtTheRaces/status/1370704994425581570

on this video, he has a wall of horses in front of him , there is no gap until 8-9 seconds into the video, he gives the horse a    back hander to pick up and go through the gap but the horse doesn't pick up .
at the 12-13 second mark the horse that eventually wins comes back to its right and closes the gap .
Report greenteethnarrabacktroutmoy March 13, 2021 1:24 PM GMT
be hard to convince it was intentionally nt but the effort fron 2 out was embarrassing.
Report greenteethnarrabacktroutmoy March 13, 2021 1:26 PM GMT
not sure what you're watching pabs but the effort is cringe imo.
Report pablo-fanque March 13, 2021 1:31 PM GMT
warrack ,which part of my description is wrong ?
Report 11kv March 13, 2021 1:33 PM GMT
Fav in the next see if he gets animated Laugh
Report 11kv March 13, 2021 1:36 PM GMT
Hands and heels nuffing to see there..
Report Sergeant Cecil March 13, 2021 2:48 PM GMT

Mar 13, 2021 -- 7:31AM, pablo-fanque wrote:


warrack ,which part of my description is wrong ?


All of it?

Report werbie March 13, 2021 2:49 PM GMT
2 out mr hunt? have another look and see where he was supposed to go.
It was still a lock in with just less than 1f to go, coasted last 100yds nothing to see
Report Sergeant Cecil March 13, 2021 2:57 PM GMT

Mar 13, 2021 -- 8:49AM, werbie wrote:


2 out mr hunt? have another look and see where he was supposed to go.It was still a lock in with just less than 1f to go, coasted last 100yds nothing to see


Jockeys go through those kind of gaps every single race. There was loads of room.

Report pablo-fanque March 13, 2021 3:03 PM GMT
on this video, he has a wall of horses in front of him , there is no gap until 8-9 seconds into the video

true or false cecil ?
Report werbie March 13, 2021 3:13 PM GMT
Have another look.
Report 11kv March 13, 2021 3:17 PM GMT
Nicely animated there Grin
Report pablo-fanque March 13, 2021 3:18 PM GMT
Jockeys go through those kind of gaps every single race. There was loads of room

correct cecil, there was loads of room for about 5 seconds , but the horse did not pick up to go through it , and then the gap closed again
Report werbie March 13, 2021 3:26 PM GMT
Is anyone actually saying Host was robbed of a place in the race by RM?
Report Sergeant Cecil March 13, 2021 3:26 PM GMT

Mar 13, 2021 -- 9:03AM, pablo-fanque wrote:


on this video, he has a wall of horses in front of him , there is no gap until 8-9 seconds into the videotrue or false cecil ?




What do you think that is?

Report Sergeant Cecil March 13, 2021 3:26 PM GMT
https://i.ibb.co/NVQsFym/gap.png
Report 11kv March 13, 2021 3:31 PM GMT

Mar 13, 2021 -- 5:50AM, 11kv wrote:


Horse never picked up,stopped riding 1/2 f out when could have placed.


Thar ya go

Report greenteethnarrabacktroutmoy March 13, 2021 3:32 PM GMT
re watched..had any amount of room and hands and heels only..looks terrible.
Report punchestown March 13, 2021 3:38 PM GMT
Just compare his effort on Streamline to see what Ryan Moore can actually do.
Report werbie March 13, 2021 3:40 PM GMT
Newsflash - An 8f  horse not able to pick up when seeing day light inside the final furlong of a 7f race. Granted, could have ridden out for 5thPlain
Report 11kv March 13, 2021 3:44 PM GMT
But with Ryan on board the horse gains lengths before the race surely..
Report pablo-fanque March 13, 2021 3:45 PM GMT
just to clear this up

i am not saying that he was definitely trying all out , he wasn't imo, as he looked to be cruising 3.5 furlongs out .

but coming into the straight , he had no where to go , imo . cecil , that pic you put up, he has at least 2 lengths to make up to get to that gap .

was all this deliberate ?

if that's what the conversation is about , i may well be wrong .

good luck
Report greenteethnarrabacktroutmoy March 13, 2021 3:46 PM GMT
it was hands and heels only...was the big drift a mere coincidence?
Report Sergeant Cecil March 13, 2021 3:48 PM GMT

Mar 13, 2021 -- 9:40AM, werbie wrote:


Newsflash - An 8f

Report Sergeant Cecil March 13, 2021 3:49 PM GMT
Embarrassing comment. This horse ran 21.90 for the final 2f when second at Lingfield and 23.37 for the final 2f for his last win here. If there's one thing this horse can do it's quicken.
Report Barton Bank March 13, 2021 3:52 PM GMT
Yep, horse has gears. Anyone who watched him pick up off a slow pace at Wolverhampton over a mile would not question his ability to be effective over 7f at the same course.
Report greenteethnarrabacktroutmoy March 13, 2021 3:52 PM GMT
anyone who defends that ride is a lover of rm.
Report Barton Bank March 13, 2021 3:52 PM GMT
Or they can't read a race. One of the two, or perhaps both.
Report Sergeant Cecil March 13, 2021 3:53 PM GMT

Mar 13, 2021 -- 9:45AM, pablo-fanque wrote:


just to clear this upi am not saying that he was definitely trying all out , he wasn't imo, as he looked to be cruising 3.5 furlongs out .but coming into the straight , he had no where to go , imo . cecil , that pic you put up, he has at least 2 lengths to make up to get to that gap .was all this deliberate ?if that's what the conversation is about , i may well be wrong . good luck


Did he try to make those lengths up? At no point did he get serious with the horse. If you've finished 6th and not ridden a finish or used the whip more than once then the interference would have to have been a lot worse than it was to justify it.

Report pablo-fanque March 13, 2021 3:57 PM GMT
that's fair enough cecil , it didn't look good

my evaluation was purely on the twitter video that was put up .
Report Sergeant Cecil March 13, 2021 4:04 PM GMT
That's fine. I respect your view but equally if that's the threshold in terms of interference whereby we say jockeys can basically just stop riding then the game's in trouble.

I appreciate it's a bit of an apples and oranges comparison, but imagine he has the exact same scenario 2f out in a Breeders' Cup Mile...do you think he's riding that horse with the same vigour? And then going "did all I could there lads" to Tabor, Magnier, Smith and O'Brien after?
Report greenteethnarrabacktroutmoy March 13, 2021 4:09 PM GMT
cec

do you think he deliberately rode it not to win?
Report Sergeant Cecil March 13, 2021 4:14 PM GMT
Probably not sensible from a legal standpoint to answer that.

All I'll say is I do think jockeys stop horses and I do think people laying that horse knew it wouldn't win.
Report the dealer March 13, 2021 4:16 PM GMT
There was no stewards report,as far as I can see, which doesn't really mean much but there was also no report from Moore, saying he suffered interference. I would have thought there should have been one or the other.
I only watched the same twitter clip as pf and I really didn't think it was that bad. I do appreciate though some of the comments above as to why people would see it differently.
Report Sergeant Cecil March 13, 2021 4:21 PM GMT
Maybe they only publish the report at the end of racing.

Any horse drifting from 11/10 in the morning out to 9/2 should be investigated as a matter of course. If these drifts are spotted, they should speak to connections and tell them the ride will be watched and scrutinised - I believe they can, and do, do this.

Probably didn't have the bollocks to say that to Moore.
Report greenteethnarrabacktroutmoy March 13, 2021 4:22 PM GMT
so a yes then..hi5
Report the dealer March 13, 2021 4:23 PM GMT
They are usually updated and available through out the day.
Report Sergeant Cecil March 13, 2021 4:23 PM GMT
Oh right. Awful then.
Report 11kv March 13, 2021 4:27 PM GMT
No pizzing about on Nelson Gay Grin
Report Barton Bank March 13, 2021 4:29 PM GMT
It's fair to see that he has given some horses excellent rides today. Looked like a completely different rider in the opener.
Report greenteethnarrabacktroutmoy March 13, 2021 4:30 PM GMT
indeed bb.
Report 11kv March 13, 2021 4:31 PM GMT
Praps he was warmimg up ?
Report the dealer March 13, 2021 4:35 PM GMT
The sporting life and racing post after race analysis of how it ran, takes some believing.
Report punchestown March 13, 2021 4:35 PM GMT
There's enough people on this thread that have had a fair idea of the time of day over the years that were concerned about the ride to make me believe what I thought I saw,a completely different rider through the race.
Report pablo-fanque March 13, 2021 4:44 PM GMT
i have just watched the full race, regardless of the drift ( probably should never have been evens anyway )  i will stand by my assessment and go against the crowd   .

through the whole race he was trapped in a pocket with no where to go until the gap appeared about just before 1/2 out , only for it to close about 4-5 strides later , horse never picked up , whether it has a turn of foot or not , not all horses show their turn of foot in every race , they are not machines

i would like to hear others assessment though

cheers
Report the dealer March 13, 2021 4:48 PM GMT
I'm with you pf, the crux of the matter is him not going through the gap. You either think he made no effort or the horse didn't quicken and the gap closed. I haven't saw any head on, which I think would make things a bit clearer. I'm with the later
Report the dealer March 13, 2021 4:50 PM GMT
I can't copy them across but if you haven't looked, I would say go do so and see what the racing post and sporting life reporters saw.
Report GEORGE.B March 13, 2021 4:50 PM GMT
The evidence of the head on is unequivocal.

He didn't get a clear run up the straight until inside the final furlong, and when it eventually opened up for him, Moore gives his mount a reminder but immediately senses that the eventual winner is edging to its right under pressure and it did indeed drift in front of him.

Two actions should have then followed:

Moore should have reported that he didn't get a clear run, but we all know he's not the most talkative, so probably didn't bother.

The stewards should have looked at whether Billy Garritty could have done more to prevent his mount edging right, and as he administered the second strike when his mount was already edging right, it could be argued that it at least warranted a caution.
Report 11kv March 13, 2021 4:53 PM GMT
Racing Post:
Held up in midfield, headway and not clear run over 1f out, shaken up inside final furlong, no extra towards finish (op 9/4)
Report 11kv March 13, 2021 4:54 PM GMT
Sportinglife:
In touch, pushed along and headway entering final furlong, no impression after op 9/4
Report the dealer March 13, 2021 4:57 PM GMT
Cheers 11kv not saying either is right but 8t just shows how people see different things.
Report 11kv March 13, 2021 5:00 PM GMT
That's what makes the sport it is  opinions before or after....
Report stewarty b March 13, 2021 7:58 PM GMT
I remember Moore being interviewed after the first time he won the Oaks and he was asked if it was a good feeling. He replied....'Yes, but it's not the Derby'.


I haven't seen the said race I may add but he knows where his bread is buttered and it's not at Wolverhampton..
Report pablo-fanque March 13, 2021 8:27 PM GMT
stewarty ,  you didn't see the race and ryan moore had 4 winners there today .

Crazy
Report stewarty b March 13, 2021 8:44 PM GMT
and ryan moore had 4 winners there today
Report stewarty b March 13, 2021 8:45 PM GMT
and ryan moore had 4 winners there today



How much did he cop....including his riding fees?
Report pablo-fanque March 13, 2021 8:51 PM GMT
i don't know , how much is it ?
Report stewarty b March 13, 2021 9:02 PM GMT
No idea. That's why I asked you but I do now he has won three championships whereas Piggott won eleven in between winning thirty British classics and there was not the amount of racing then as there is now.
Report werbie March 14, 2021 11:03 AM GMT
Final word from me on this - Host chivvied along 1st furlong surrounded by horses. Its a lock in when turning into the home straight all jockeys are busy with daylight in front them bar Host who has nowhere to go. RM looking for a way out, there is none until the furlong pole, coasts home. Didn't look great.
In my opinion the horse needs 1m, he's had 11 runs at up to 7f won 0, Where is the turn of foot?
Why has he had 3 runs over 8f or more? Not because he's a speed merchant. Won over 8f at Wolver staying on strongly. Had he got a V strong pace yesterday the gaps would have more than likely opened up and he would have had a shout but it was muddling and not his cup of tea imo. Have a great Sunday Grin
Report 11kv March 14, 2021 11:37 AM GMT
Wolverhampton, 13 Mar 21
11:45 GET YOUR LADBROKES DAILY ODDS BOOST HANDICAP (4)

Race 1 - 11:45am
Coming past the 1f pole HOST ridden by Ryan Moore it was reported as he felt the horse could not win and  he couldn't be ar sed to expel any energy trying to place the beast saving himself for later races (only had a very light breakfast). After viewing a recording of the incident, it was found that no riding offence had taken place.

Ryan was asked what he would like to say to the lads on the forum he apologized and said in future he will ride out to the line even if he felt the horse could not win the race as he understands in most races there is a 4 to be placed market.

A report will not be  forwarded to the Head Office of the British Horseracing Authority for further consideration as it has already been debated on the Betfair forum.
Report maleuk01. March 14, 2021 12:00 PM GMT
I dont think RM even looked for a clear passage.

The eventual winner was half a length up and being scrubbed 2 furlongs out while RM sat motionless. When a gap appeared he didnt even bother, just coasted it home.

With it going from 11/10 to 9/2 as well it made it look even worse.

If the same horses where to run again, same weights etc what price would it be? 6/4 i guess.
Report Sergeant Cecil March 14, 2021 1:14 PM GMT

Mar 14, 2021 -- 6:03AM, werbie wrote:


Final word from me on this - Host chivvied along 1st furlong surrounded by horses. Its a lock in when turning into the home straight all jockeys are busy with daylight in front them bar Host who has nowhere to go. RM looking for a way out, there is none until the furlong pole, coasts home. Didn't look great. In my opinion the horse needs 1m, he's had 11 runs at up to 7f won 0, Where is the turn of foot? Why has he had 3 runs over 8f or more? Not because he's a speed merchant. Won over 8f at Wolver staying on strongly. Had he got a V strong pace yesterday the gaps would have more than likely opened up and he would have had a shout but it was muddling and not his cup of tea imo. Have a great Sunday


The pace wasn't muddling yesterday, as per the sectionals. Similarly, he was not "staying on strongly" when he won, he quickened past rivals off a slow pace. You don't run sub 24 seconds over a mile at Wolves if the pace is strong. He was unlucky off a break over 7f in January.

Report Sergeant Cecil March 14, 2021 1:22 PM GMT

Mar 14, 2021 -- 7:00AM, maleuk01. wrote:


I dont think RM even looked for a clear passage.The eventual winner was half a length up and being scrubbed 2 furlongs out while RM sat motionless. When a gap appeared he didnt even bother, just coasted it home.With it going from 11/10 to 9/2 as well it made it look even worse.If the same horses where to run again, same weights etc what price would it be? 6/4 i guess.


Totally agree. Even if you assume the gap wasn't there, he made no effort to look for one, or create one. People can't seriously be arguing that in the same scenario on a horse that'd gone from 9/2 to 11/10 that he'd have made the same 'effort'? He'd have put the winner through the rail trying to get out.

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