Forums
Welcome to Live View – Take the tour to learn more
Start Tour
There is currently 1 person viewing this thread.
onlooker
17 Jan 21 15:23
Joined:
Date Joined: 18 Feb 03
| Topic/replies: 35,410 | Blogger: onlooker's blog
from irishracing ....

The perpetual tussle between punters and bookmakers is as old as time.

But, while the bookmakers have always held the edge, that advantage is getting far more pronounced as technology and corporations replace the human face of the sole-trader bookie.

The old days of fearless on-course layers willing to take an opinion on a race were but a fading memory prior to the advent of Covid as ‘the machine’ had long since governed the prices on offer at the tracks.

With no on-course layers for the time being at least, and no high-street betting shops either, all the trade now takes place in an online world where the algorithm is king.

We are constantly being warned about protecting our personal data and GDPR has become a buzz word for safe-guarding consumers from the worst practises of big business.
But an online betting account is the ultimate tool for the modern corporate bookmaker. They now know everything about your betting habits. When you bet, what you bet on, how much you stake and crucially whether or not you’re a winner or a loser.

Once their algorithm weeds out the small percentage of potential winners they are left with a distilled pot of losers. In fact, their data analysis has become so advanced that they no longer need to close accounts of the potential winners and can instead limit stakes on certain bet types and events and relax those limits where they know there is less risk.

The online bookie is in GAA terms the equivalent of Dublin. Virtually, if not totally, unbeatable and only getting stronger.

The vast array of online bookmakers in the market is proof, if any were needed, as to just how lucrative this business has become. The only real surprise is that Tesco, Lidl and Ryanair haven’t looked for a slice of the action yet.

You would expect a market as diverse as the online betting arena to offer greater choice for the consumer but that is scarcely the case. All firms quickly fall into line behind the biggest players in the market and even when pricing up events as subjective as horse races there is rarely more than a point or two in the difference on any individual runner.

Bet365, a giant of the online space, is currently offering ‘traditional’ Ante-post markets on all Cheltenham races so it should follow that there’d be an edge for the punter when rival company Paddy Power announced last week that they were going NRNB (non-runner no bet) on all 28 Festival races.

I looked at the Champion Hurdle betting with both firms and Paddy Power, with their money back concession, are shorter odds on every single horse. So, any potential advantage for the punter disappears into their higher over-rounds. Over-rounds that were already bloated on the Bet365 market.

Paddy Power are masters at these corporate sleights-of-hand where at first glance the offer looks great value for the customer but when you delve into the fine print you realise it’s not quite what it first seemed.

Most bookmakers follow Paddy Power’s lead so their recent change to the now standard offer of Best Odds Guaranteed will likely filter down through the industry. This week they reduced the daily limit on this concession from €50,000 to a mere €1,000.

The relentless advance of the corporate bookie should in theory spell its own demise. If punters can’t actually win why would they continue to bet? You’d probably need a team of psychologists to answer that question, but the addictive nature of betting must be a significant factor.

The structure of racing both here and in the UK is increasingly reliant on bookmaker profits by way of levies paid to the sport, TV rights and sponsorship deals.
The success of the sport is precariously linked to the success of the bookmakers; which is all under-pinned by its audience consistently losing money.

Not a financial model any sport would set out to achieve.
------------

[b]Could you imagine RACING POST publishing an article like that ?  CryGrin
Pause Switch to Standard View Saying it as it is - Article - re...
Show More
Loading...
Report jimnast January 20, 2021 3:38 PM GMT
which sports ?
Report impossible123 January 20, 2021 4:59 PM GMT
The bookies could employ proper market makers not new school leavers on day release or job support scheme.
Report geoff m January 20, 2021 5:03 PM GMT
think it will be a very short list Jimnast.
Report jimnast January 20, 2021 5:06 PM GMT
totally agree with both impossible and geoff
Report Gordon63 January 20, 2021 5:32 PM GMT
I think that says more about Horse Racing than Betfair.

Sports which are free from corruption are just as busy as ever.


100% agree with this and one reason why myself (and a notable majority of the younger generation) are moving towards sports betting, not that some of these (particularly single player sports such as tennis/snooker) are immune and perhaps more importantly in the immediate future there will be an acceleration in the reduction of horse racing as a percentage of UK bookmakers revenue and these ridiculous calls for levy increases are just a smokescreen for the absolute mis-management by BHA in past 10 years
Report screaming from beneaththewaves January 20, 2021 5:41 PM GMT
There wouldn't be a sport  more notorious for fixing on the planet right now than cricket, yet its markets dwarf those of every other sport on here.

Just today we saw Shakib Al Hasa, the number-one all-rounder in the world, return from a 12-month bookie-related ban to lead Bangladesh to victory over the W Indies.
Report Deptford January 20, 2021 5:51 PM GMT
Sri Lanka first innings!!!
Report The Management January 20, 2021 5:51 PM GMT
I like the end of season Italian Football - when the draw is 10/11 (pre-match) and then after the away team go 0-2 up in the first half - the draw trades at 8/11 for the duration of the half-time break - then just after the restart, the away side go 0-3 up (which tempts a few more people to lay the draw forcing it all the way out to Evens) - before the home-team make an amazing come back for a 3-3 draw!
Report screaming from beneaththewaves January 20, 2021 6:00 PM GMT
AFP
Jun 03, 2020 · 10:18 pm

Cricket’s world body is investigating three former Sri Lankan players over alleged corruption, officials said Wednesday, in the latest scandal to hit the sport in the country.

Sri Lanka Cricket did not name the targets of the probe by the International Cricket Council Anti-Corruption Unit, but insisted no current national players were involved.

The board was responding to media reports on comments made by Sports Minister Dullas Alahapperuma on Tuesday.

The reports said Alahapperuma had hinted current players were being investigated by the ICC for match-fixing.

“What the honourable minister actually mentioned was about an investigation launched by the ICC Anti-Corruption Unit against three former Sri Lanka players and not the current national players,” the board said in a statement.

The ICC said it would not comment on any active investigation.

Sri Lanka introduced tough penalties for match-fixing and tightened sports betting restrictions in November in a bid to stamp out graft that has tainted the country’s cricket team.

Allegations of corruption included claims of match-fixing ahead of a 2018 Test against England.

Betting on sports events in Sri Lanka was already illegal, but the new rules ban Sri Lankans from gambling on overseas contests. They face up to 10 years in jail and fines of up to $555,000 for match-fixing.

The new law also bans people with family links to gambling businesses from sitting on cricket’s governing body.

The provision was in part to target the former Sri Lanka Cricket president, Thilanga Sumathipala, who was an executive committee member even though his family owns a gambling business.

Sumathipala, a businessman and politician, has repeatedly denied involvement in the gambling side of the family business.

A former sports minister, Harin Fernando, had said cricket in Sri Lanka was riddled with graft “from top to bottom”, and that the ICC considered Sri Lanka one of the world’s most corrupt nations.

Former Sri Lankan fast bowler Dilhara Lokuhettige was suspended in 2018 for corruption linked to a limited-over league.

He was the third Sri Lankan charged under the ICC anti-corruption code, following action against former captain and ex-chief selector Sanath Jayasuriya, and former paceman Nuwan Zoysa.

Jayasuriya was found guilty of failing to cooperate with a match-fixing probe and was banned for two years. Zoysa was suspended for match-fixing.
Report Gordon63 January 20, 2021 6:38 PM GMT
poor omishin from myself!! had firmly put the cricketers behind me, haven't paid the slightest attention to that sport since the halycon west indies teams of late 70s, marshall, roberts, holding etc and my two faves kallicharan and greenidge...even if the best cricket match was on now I wouldn't be interested, sad really...
Report jimnast January 20, 2021 6:42 PM GMT
what about clive ?
Report Gordon63 January 20, 2021 6:50 PM GMT
aye he was good but played for lancashire and they too often beat warks who were 'my' team but he was a great captain for sure
Report jimnast January 20, 2021 6:55 PM GMT
back then gordon they beat everyone in limited overs cricket even in the dark approaching 9 pm
Report jimnast January 20, 2021 6:57 PM GMT
was it roy fredricks who opened with greenidge ?
Report Gordon63 January 20, 2021 6:58 PM GMT
yes and desmond haynes
Report jimnast January 20, 2021 7:06 PM GMT
yes haynes also,

can you remember gordon who the 8 teams were that contested the first world cup where big clive lifted the trophy ?
Report geoff m January 20, 2021 7:07 PM GMT
Cant name a member of todays West Indies squad but growing up in the same era watching, Clive LLoyd/ Rhoan Khanai/Lance Gibbs/ Charlie Griffith/Andy Roberts and later Viv Richards /Michael Holding (who lived in same village as me when he played for Derbyshire.
Report sparrow January 20, 2021 7:08 PM GMT
What about Viv then?
Report sparrow January 20, 2021 7:09 PM GMT
Beat me to it, geoff.
Report jimnast January 20, 2021 7:10 PM GMT
bit early for sir vivian sparrow/geoff
Report Gordon63 January 20, 2021 7:11 PM GMT
jimnast - england, india, pakistan, australia, new zealand make it 6, was it too early for sri lanka and bangladesh?  and don't think namibia, maybe netherlands? don't want to cheat on google!!
Report Gordon63 January 20, 2021 7:12 PM GMT
for my money garner was the best bowler out of all the indies greats but he was a bit later...
Report jimnast January 20, 2021 7:14 PM GMT
as it happens he was in the squad for the 75 world cup ,played against sri lanka but didnt get to bat.
Report jimnast January 20, 2021 7:15 PM GMT
you have got 7 gordon sri lanka is correct
Report sparrow January 20, 2021 7:27 PM GMT
Don't know about too early jimnast as my first test match was in 1957 at the Oval and the three Ws  Walcott, Worrall and Weekes.Grin
Report jimnast January 20, 2021 7:32 PM GMT
only went to the oval once sparrow lancashire surrey semi final what a game ,pretty dark then aswell by the finish.
Report jimnast January 20, 2021 7:33 PM GMT
did weekes become a pundit on the televised cricket ?
Report sparrow January 20, 2021 7:35 PM GMT
Can't honestly remember, jimnast. I always listened to the radio commentaries with John Arlott etc.
Report sparrow January 20, 2021 7:38 PM GMT
Tony Cozier was the West Indian representative on Test Match Special in the 60s.
Report jimnast January 20, 2021 7:48 PM GMT
not sure myself sparrow tms the other morning was funny,agers good himself in a pickle as they are watching it on tv like everyone else.

he says another wicket and its almost exactly like the last one i cant believe it,the co presenter replied its a tv replay agers.
Report sparrow January 20, 2021 7:51 PM GMT
Like geoff I just don't follow it the same now, jimnast. A pity really and find it really odd that people in this country have taken to that awful NFL American stuff now.Sad
Report jimnast January 20, 2021 8:00 PM GMT
i also find that very odd total nonsense
Report sixtwosix January 20, 2021 8:10 PM GMT
I too grew up with the West Indies skittling England for 71 back in 75 or 76.....and being mesmerised by their cricket for the next 15 years .....I too do not watch nor follow the modern game.

During lockdown I have read a book on Englands tour of the West Indies in 84 and one one of touring Oz and NZ a couple of years , currently reading Franklin Stephenson's autobiog and have a massive book on the history of West Indies cricket to go.

Never been to a first class game but in my village I have had the pleasure of watching Sir Garfield Sobers , Joel Garner and Carl Hooper.
Report onlooker January 20, 2021 8:15 PM GMT
The most important part of watching Match of the Day on Saturday night is -

- making sure that you are fast enough with the Remote Control when MOTD finishes - to turn off that NFL Show crap.
Report jimnast January 20, 2021 8:20 PM GMT
carl hooper i think was at werneth for a time.


most of those who watch cricket now will never believe how good the west indies were for such a long period.
Report saxon farm January 20, 2021 8:36 PM GMT
Carl Hooper has no bottle!
As Brian Lara told his captain Dermot Reeve in the NatWest semi Warwickshire v Kent 1994.

Lara was correct.
Report JML January 20, 2021 8:50 PM GMT
Anyone remember Collis King--Only played in 9 tests.

He also played for a village team in North Wales.
Report sparrow January 20, 2021 8:51 PM GMT
The only problem watching the West Indies then was the fact that an all fast bowler attack only produced about 11 overs an hour so you would spend a lot of time watching bowlers walking back to their mark. It was a joy when Abdul Quadir and Shane Warne came along as the first two top class leg spinners for many years and they were great to watch.
Report jimnast January 20, 2021 8:54 PM GMT
jml

he toured south africa when it wasnt the done thing.

got to see a fantastic country before most
Report jimnast January 20, 2021 8:57 PM GMT
also played a big innings in the 79 world cup final ,cant believe he only played 9 tests.
Report sixtwosix January 20, 2021 8:59 PM GMT
Collis King scored 86 in 66 balls in the 79 final ....and outscored Viv Richards in a partnership just short of 150.
Report jimnast January 20, 2021 9:01 PM GMT
cant remember which county he played for
Report sparrow January 20, 2021 9:04 PM GMT
According to wiki.....King played for Glamorgan and Worcestershire.
Report jimnast January 20, 2021 9:05 PM GMT
you could watch him for free nowadays at new road whilst having breakfast
Report regvarney January 20, 2021 9:17 PM GMT
New Road could well be flooded again soon if all the forecast rain falls further up the Severn in Wales as forecast...
Seems to happen every few years, along with Worcester racecourse just a few hundred yards away
Report jimnast January 20, 2021 9:26 PM GMT
reg

i was in a sports bar in cape town a few years ago and everyone was laughing at the tv screen there were two people rowing up what looked like a river all of a sudden you saw a winning post,it was worcester racecourse .
Report regvarney January 20, 2021 9:32 PM GMT
Yeah, the river runs just behind the stand
Has it closed? I know it hasn't had fixtures for a good while
Report regvarney January 20, 2021 9:36 PM GMT
That was stupid of me, just googled, as it's now a summer course looks like it lost all 2020 cos of covid
I just seem to remember before that it had transferred some fixtures as well
Report jimnast January 20, 2021 9:37 PM GMT
not closed reg when the covid fixture list was formed worcester didnt want any fixtures i think brighton was the same,carlisle and nottingham were not having any summer fixtures,i should think they will be back racing in the summer hopefully with crowds.
Report jimnast January 20, 2021 9:38 PM GMT
hereford is run by worcester ,one is winter one is summer.
Report Gordon63 January 20, 2021 9:39 PM GMT
NFL is just so well presented and THE biggest sports betting bonanza Stateside, it's truly the most professional of professional sports, however for those more familiar with tea and a country village I can see the contradictions!!

I'd take watching West Indies circa 75-78 over Kansas City Chiefs, but now it's a no contest and whilst that's partly gambling related, it's also the massive amount of internet content before during and after like barry hearn on super steroids
Report regvarney January 20, 2021 9:45 PM GMT
Jim, Hereford my favourite course, along with Newton abbot
Never missed a meeting at either for good 15 years
Chepstow and Ludlow nearly all, but Worcester not so much
Report jimnast January 20, 2021 9:53 PM GMT
i like hereford reg can get a direct train from manchester enjoy a couple of hours in barrels after racing happy times then covid came along,not been to abbot for a few years but always enjoyed going there,i like the jumps at chepstow ,ludlow superbly run racecourse and you can still go on the roof although its becoming hard work with age.
Report Gordon63 January 20, 2021 9:54 PM GMT
ludlow one of my top 10, love how 'old fashioned' it is with those proper urinals and massive steps!! also like courses which are within town/city boundaries so hereford and worcester get a tick although last visit to worcester about 3 years ago I thought it was almost beyond repair, no idea if owners will spend money on it or not, but if not then may as well close it
Report regvarney January 20, 2021 9:57 PM GMT
Jim, I haven't been to Ludlow for about 4 years... I couldn't believe even then that they still let you up on the roof of the stand, what with health and safety
Could be right blowy up thete
Report jimnast January 20, 2021 10:00 PM GMT
gordon i first went to worcester the day touching wood won the st leger john francome rode one called neat for jock whitney and fred winter,the only thing that has changed in the years that have passed is the decking by the far side of the parade ring,i think as its on a flood plane they will never change much,even the course enclosure where its a real mess after bad weather they wont even put any tarmac down.
Report Gordon63 January 20, 2021 10:04 PM GMT
massive steps up to the top of the stand but worth it for the fantastic view over the complete course, is it the only course where the parade ring is across the track from the stands?
Report regvarney January 20, 2021 10:06 PM GMT
I went to Bangor once just to tick off the list, and did Wolverhampton evening meeting on the way back the same day for the same reason
Even though Bangor has a lack of facilities, to say the least, it still had something about it which Worcester has been lacking, imo, for some years
Report jimnast January 20, 2021 10:07 PM GMT
i am sure at some stage reg elf and safety will poke there nose in ,where would the country be without them.

its great to know somebody has hereford as there favorite course.
Report regvarney January 20, 2021 10:09 PM GMT
Gordon, only one I've been to with parade ring on the inside, I think
Not been to Chelmsford but I believe the main stand is on the inside, don't know about the parade ring
Report jimnast January 20, 2021 10:11 PM GMT
the only one gordon what does the parade ring have in common with goodwood ?
Report jimnast January 20, 2021 10:12 PM GMT
i forgot chelmsford as i dont really consider it as a racecourse.
Report Gordon63 January 20, 2021 10:14 PM GMT
walk the wrong way round
Report jimnast January 20, 2021 10:15 PM GMT
i never miss bangor reg its a really well kept racecourse very pretty and does really well as it doesnt have a station and isnt easy to get to.
Report jimnast January 20, 2021 10:17 PM GMT
correct gordon although they might say the others walk the wrong way round.

i have tried to find out the reason for that but with no success.
Report regvarney January 20, 2021 10:18 PM GMT
Jim, I understand that Bangor holds point to point meetings on the inside of the rules course?
And that they go in the opposite direction? Ie right handed
Would make sense cos when you stand on that hill by the Winning Post the track is almost head on
Report Gordon63 January 20, 2021 10:19 PM GMT
I've been to all UK courses and only thing I can come up with is perhaps the positioning of the parade ring would mean parading directly into the sunlight if they walk the proper way round
Report jimnast January 20, 2021 10:21 PM GMT
never been to a point to point there but do know they race the other way.

cheers lads good night and take care.
Report regvarney January 20, 2021 10:21 PM GMT
Gordon, the sun?
Maybe glorious goodwood but Ludlow?
Report regvarney January 20, 2021 10:22 PM GMT
Only kidding Gordon, I've got no alternative theory
Cheers jim
Report Gordon63 January 20, 2021 10:23 PM GMT
reg I've been to goodwood when the viewing due to fog and rain was far worse than anything I've experienced or even seen at Ludlow!! you know how these low early afternoon winter suns go nowadays
Report workrider January 20, 2021 10:53 PM GMT
I love Ludlow spent the day in the town had something to eat in the Castle then went racing and backed 5 out of six and am still convinced the 6th one held on , loved the top of the roof as well , a tough enough jumping test those last few in the straight.
Report regvarney January 20, 2021 11:00 PM GMT
Work rider, Ludlow is a fantastic town, I go there for work every 2 months
I would move there
Real old fashioned shops, plenty of 'old' money
Report workrider January 20, 2021 11:07 PM GMT
Agree Regvarney beautiful town, and the drive over from Cheltenham was something to behold . I could have spent ages wondering around ,parked down by a school and walk back up along the river , had a chat with a old guy pruning his garden he was delighted to spend a little time chatting but couldn't believe I had come from Ireland for the racing..Grin
Report parispike January 21, 2021 1:10 PM GMT
Ludlow is the finest racecourse in the UK IMO. Properly run by "racing people"; good prize money, wonderful viewing although as jimnast says that roof top stand gets harder to climb to as the years go past.

Always remember a trip there a couple of years ago. Driving  with a friend over Clee Hill; could see the fog below. As we neared the course it got worse and worse. Arrived with the worst of situations - fit enough to race in but extremely poor viewing for spectators. Suddenly 10 mins from the first it was as if God (I'm not religious) had decided he wanted to watch the day's sport and the fog lifted and it was a glorious Winter's day. Crisp, blue sky.

God's own racecourse.

Wish I was there today.
Report workrider January 21, 2021 1:38 PM GMT
Me too Parispike , a cracking little course and beautiful town.
Report Gordon63 January 21, 2021 2:15 PM GMT
the ludlow rooftop stand steps are only beaten for scale by salisbury, the designer must have been a relative of Gulliver
Report jimnast January 21, 2021 2:19 PM GMT
that would be nice paris.

hard to find a fault with the place ,no hassle going out for a walk around the course or standing by the fences, courtesy bus from the station always a racing crowd ,this is torture Sad
Report jimnast January 21, 2021 2:26 PM GMT
paris

have you been to kelso ?
Report ribero1 January 21, 2021 2:28 PM GMT
And in other news Jimnast the scientists are advising pubs & restaurants don't open until May,and then of course they will suggest postponing that.
Report jimnast January 21, 2021 2:34 PM GMT
yes i heard that today ribero,that mob you never have you any happiness again for the rest of our lives.
Report jimnast January 21, 2021 2:38 PM GMT
have you have
Report loper January 21, 2021 2:59 PM GMT
jimnast
20 Jan 21 23:17
Joined: 03 Jan 01
| Topic/replies: 7,318 | Blogger: jimnast's blog
correct gordon although they might say the others walk the wrong way round.

i have tried to find out the reason for that but with no success.


The reason why they have changed the parading to an anti clockwise direction at Ludlow is,  should a horse be spooked, the lad/lass leading him/her round will not be trapped between the horse and the rail.

So it's for safety reasons.
Report parispike January 21, 2021 3:05 PM GMT
Completely agree jimnast.

Another fine Ludlow feature is the Ludlow Brewery Tap, situated about 3/4 mins from the station.  Mid winter meetings end early enough for a pint or two before the place closes and the train back....
Report jimnast January 21, 2021 3:10 PM GMT
cheers loper i have wandered about it for quite a while,as already stated a very well run racecourse,
Report jimnast January 21, 2021 3:11 PM GMT
more torture paris stop itCry
Report parispike January 21, 2021 3:20 PM GMT
jimnast21 Jan 21 16:11Joined: 03 Jan 01 | Topic/replies: 7,322 | Blogger: jimnast's blog
more torture paris stop itCry

Sorry!
Report loper January 21, 2021 3:21 PM GMT
Although, Jimnast, they still walk around the preparade ring in a clockwise direction!Laugh
Report jimnast January 21, 2021 3:30 PM GMT
and the last race was the wye valley brewery handicap chase Cry
Report jimnast January 21, 2021 3:32 PM GMT
paris you might have missed my earlier question ,have you been to kelso ?
Report parispike January 21, 2021 3:35 PM GMT
No, one of 5 not been to. Others being Fakenham, Bangor, Hexham, Sedgefield.
Report Gordon63 January 21, 2021 3:35 PM GMT
mates are members at kelso so tag along a few times per year, last visit will be 52 bleeding weeks ago this weekend!! i know workrider liked his visit - rooftop view over the course a la ludlow but be prepared to go home 'reeking' of coal as the proper fire burns in the bar below, great track and good racing
Report Gordon63 January 21, 2021 3:40 PM GMT
No, one of 5 not been to. Others being Fakenham, Bangor, Hexham, Sedgefield.

Fakenham in my bottom 5 (sorry) just seems to take forever to get there and low grade racing
Bangor - as you all know, only course without a stand so find a position on the bank or up by the finishing line, their Anne Of Westminster charity day usually attracts decent horses
Hexham - fairly high up my list, partly because can get there and back via train and taxi on same day, few pints in the pub across from station before and after, been there on a members reciprocal trip, recommend paying the extra to get in the club area
Sedgefield - low grade racing but IMO much nicer atmosphere and feeling than Fakenham, few pints in the Golden Pheasant in town beforehand, Durham National day pretty good
Report jimnast January 21, 2021 3:40 PM GMT
you would love kelso paris and hexham for that matter.

as gordon says rooftop view but unlike ludlow you pass through a nice old fashioned bar on route with a roaring fire,if your really cold {which you will be }you can have a tipple on the way back down.
Report jimnast January 21, 2021 3:42 PM GMT
surprised you have not been to bangor.
Report parispike January 21, 2021 3:49 PM GMT
So am I!
Report jimnast January 21, 2021 3:52 PM GMT
its very pretty bangor they make a real effort to look after what they have.
Report loper January 21, 2021 4:21 PM GMT
Most descriptions appear to be accurate, but I'm afraid I do not recognise Fakenham from Gordon's representation.

Fabulous rural siuation with great viewing and quite possibly the finest cuisine at any British racecourse.

The made to order crab sandwiches are always a highlight.
Report jimnast January 21, 2021 4:25 PM GMT
also do a small afternoon tea at a very fair price.
Report workrider January 21, 2021 5:10 PM GMT
Funny I wasn't overly impressed with Fakenham either , but the drive down from Doncaster was delightful, if I remember correctly its 50 mph for long periods on that road ...
Post Your Reply
<CTRL+Enter> to submit
Please login to post a reply.

Wonder

Instance ID: 13539
www.betfair.com