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punts
28 Nov 20 11:04
Joined:
Date Joined: 16 Feb 06
| Topic/replies: 4,574 | Blogger: punts's blog
Just heard on the radio. However I think Labour supports it so not sure if they have the numbers.

If they do vote it down then I wonder what the implications will be for racing? i.e if you're from a tier 3 area whether you can attend a meeting in a tier 2 area, etc...

Complicated!
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Report The Pies November 29, 2020 12:10 PM GMT
Punts, it is an easing with non-essential business opening and as you know some admission to sports events. Ok no pubs/ restaurants to open in Tier 3 but there is an end in sight now (cavalry coming over the hill blah, blah) and I think it's worth persevering a little bit longer.
Report punts November 29, 2020 12:10 PM GMT
1st time: sometimes I think you argue for the sake of it...

The MPs will only back down if there are concessions which MAY happen. We'll soon see.

In the mean time I suggest ppl contact their MP especially Labour and tell them to vote with the rebels on Tuesday!
Report punts November 29, 2020 12:20 PM GMT
Pies: We have been persevering for 9 months...

Lockdowns do not work otherwise we would have got rid of the virus in the 3 MONTH national lockdown in March. 

Well guess what: it's still here !

Evidence also around the world suggests lockdowns DO NOT WORK and neither do MASKS.

Herd immunity or a vaccine is the only solution.  Maybe restrictions on nursing homes or the elderly (most at risk) should be considered but that is about it .

This is the most important time of the year for many businesses large and small.... shutting them down is criminal!

Jobs and livelihoods are at risk.

Hopefully the normally useless MPs vote this stupid policy out!
Report 1st time poster November 29, 2020 12:23 PM GMT
concessions as a vote on 16th when there,s a free for all 5 days later
concessions as ion a vote in jan when after xmas free for all cases will very likely to be higher than than before free for all
you dont need to be the brightest star in the class to no that cases will be at their lowest point next week so you either vote NO  then or your chance has gone talk of jam tomorrow in jan,9 weeks time blah,blah is just looking for an excuse to vote YES
Report The Pies November 29, 2020 12:34 PM GMT
Punts, we're not going to persuade each other are we. You seem an affable person and I now make a point of not being antagonistic on here so I'll just wish you a good day at Aintree next week.
Report punts November 29, 2020 12:37 PM GMT
No worries Pies :) Hopefully the end is in sight. I will be pleasantly surprised if the MPs agree wit me on Tuesday and say "enough is enough"
Report 1st time poster November 29, 2020 1:07 PM GMT
all shops open in all tiers,the main difference between tier,s 2 and 3 is hospitality ,the same hospitality whove been telling us 24/7 for 3 months they cant make it pay in tier 2, so putting health at risk to help those who say it doesnt help them
Report EastLower Gooner November 29, 2020 1:19 PM GMT
AP said he had shivers watching Empatate yesterday.

This gave me shivers...

https://bit.ly/2VfaZbY

:(
Report truehoncho November 29, 2020 2:17 PM GMT
Boris Johnson was facing a growing Tory mutiny over new Covid-19 restrictions last night as furious Conservative MPs accused the government of exaggerating capacity problems in the NHS in an attempt to win their support.  --  Whether you agree with the tier system or not, they have been exaggerating the capacity issue in the NHS from the start.
Report brians November 29, 2020 2:49 PM GMT
Unfortunately lockdowns obviously work. Every country has seen a lowering if cases after lockdown. Sweden is going all tits up compared to their neighbours . Boris isn't doing this , its the scientific advisors and I guess we all know more than them, don't we ?
Report punts November 29, 2020 2:51 PM GMT
Brians: look at Florida and various other US states . They do not work and it didn't here or did you forget the 3 month NATIONAL LOCKDOWN we had ?
Report punts November 29, 2020 2:53 PM GMT
Brians: The latest lockdowns "ends" on Wednesday.

What odds will you give me on COVID disappearing ?
Report truehoncho November 29, 2020 2:55 PM GMT
Unfortunately lockdowns obviously work.  no they don't. The fact that you have a second wave proves they dont.
Report wondersobright November 29, 2020 2:56 PM GMT
truehoncho • November 29, 2020 2:17 PM GMT
they have been exaggerating the capacity issue in the NHS from the start.


exactly right

even according to the official figures, hospital admissions were about 50% of their normal levels during the spring
old people turfed out of hospital & into care homes
most non-covid related issues were neglected
nightingale hospital hardly used

its a complete myth that hospitals were covid war zones
Report wondersobright November 29, 2020 2:58 PM GMT
truehoncho • November 29, 2020 2:55 PM GMT
Unfortunately lockdowns obviously work.  no they don't. The fact that you have a second wave proves they dont.


correct again th
Report GAZO November 29, 2020 2:59 PM GMT
lockdowns are used to slow it down not get rid of it and nightingale hospitals were for worst case scenario
Report truehoncho November 29, 2020 3:04 PM GMT
lockdowns are used to slow it down not get rid of it and nightingale hospitals were for worst case scenario  I agree Gazo, but hey weren't needed. The first time around you could say they didn't want to take the risk but there is no chance whatsoever of the NHS not being able to cope. They have it worse with flu every year.
Report starkeycars November 29, 2020 3:05 PM GMT
Scrapping the tiers system in feb how can that happen and replaced with what exactly the virus cases will be much much higher then if pubs were allowed  to Open  at Xmas they would now be many that would be packed to the rafters
Report punts November 29, 2020 3:05 PM GMT
But the lockdowns dont work.. everywhere they do it they still have COVID cases

Masks dont work either..lol studies have shown it.  Look it up.

The only hope is herd immunity or a (safe) vaccine which maybe just around the corner.

In the mean time jobs and businesses are being destroyed
Report wondersobright November 29, 2020 3:06 PM GMT
agree th...1st lockdown you could just about justify having an opinion that they were a sensible idea
I didn't have that view but it was a credible alt viewpoint

anybody arguing for lockdowns now is clinically insane imo & has no concept of the wider balance of health, the economy, civil liberties etc
the same people would justify spending £1bn on a drug to save 1 life because you cant put a price on a life
Report punts November 29, 2020 3:09 PM GMT
>Scrapping the tiers system in feb...

It could be scrapped on TUESDAY if the MPs have a spine and say "enough is enough".

That is why I encourage everyone to contact their MP if you feel strongly on this issue
Report truehoncho November 29, 2020 3:10 PM GMT
Punts, no one seems to want to just look at the facts. They are just repeating BBC headlines. The idea that you can stop a virus from spreading without the most insane level of restrictions is madness. A virus only exist to spread and millions of years of evolution has made it really good at it.
Report brians November 29, 2020 3:13 PM GMT
Lockdowns work in the sense that they save lives. Obviously they don't get rid of the virus but the first lockdown brought death figures down from  1.000 a day to 2 in the summer. We are playing for time here, til a vaccine arrives. The equation is simple. The disease spreads by people meeting up. If you stop this you slow the increase . There is no country in the world that dud not bring in restrictions of some sort. Ebpven Sweden had rules on groups meeting and social distancing .  Maybe they are all wrong.
Report wondersobright November 29, 2020 3:13 PM GMT
shield the vulnerable if they want to be shielded
tell people to look after their health
stop putting sh1te into their gobs
exercise
fresh air
sunlight
social contact
turn your devices off for 5 mins
Report punts November 29, 2020 3:13 PM GMT
Most people want the furlough scheme to last forever... its the most expensive welfare program that has ever existed !

It's time to open up our pubs and restaurants and get back to normal.
Report starkeycars November 29, 2020 3:15 PM GMT
What would they replace the tier system with ? They need the vaccine as soon as possible
Report wondersobright November 29, 2020 3:15 PM GMT
actually there was ZERO excess mortality before lockdown & the excess mortality only came in when lockdown came in
then when things started reopening again the excess mortality dropped

another complete myth that lockdown saves lives, the reverse is true
Report GAZO November 29, 2020 3:15 PM GMT
the problem has been the government not explaining things,so from the start with boris 'i am not closing pubs but i dont want you to go in'to we might lift restrictions over xmas for 5 days and then go back to the tiers dont make any sense without them explaining them to us
Report wondersobright November 29, 2020 3:16 PM GMT

Nov 29, 2020 -- 9:13AM, punts wrote:


Most people want the furlough scheme to last forever... its the most expensive welfare program that has ever existed ! It's time to open up our pubs and restaurants and get back to normal.


yeah they do!!
paid to sit on their arses & be a hero
get tested & self isolate for 14 days

not people you'd want to share a trench with

Report punts November 29, 2020 3:16 PM GMT
>What would they replace the tier system with ...

NOTHING.

We get back to normal. That is the point.

With contact tracing and social distancing.
Report punts November 29, 2020 3:21 PM GMT
I know a lot of us are older on here (I'm not that old!) but think of the jobs being destroyed especially on the hospitality sector and younger people and their prospects.

The saying is "the cure is worse than the disease"

This is not worth ruining our economy for and besides it looks like we're a few weeks away from a vaccine anyway assuming it is safe and effective...
Report wondersobright November 29, 2020 3:22 PM GMT
never a truer word said punts
Report 1st time poster November 29, 2020 4:20 PM GMT
saying lockdowns dont work is like dsaying seat belts dont work after having a crash whilst not wearing one 2 weeks after surving a crash whilst wearing one
effects of lockdowns are undone by people believing the pandemic is over after lockdown is released and behaving accordingly
Report 1st time poster November 29, 2020 4:25 PM GMT
its laughable hearing people in cornwall,IOWetc low infectious area,ssaying their behaviour has stopped the virus sprerading and need a pat on the back,its people in high infection area,s 7/8 months of different types of restrictions but have avoided catching the virus who deserve praising
the biggest covidiot out there can avopid getting the virus in cornwall,as demonstrated by gordon ramsey
Report truehoncho November 29, 2020 5:01 PM GMT
Lockdowns work in the sense that they save lives -- i don't beleive they do Brains. They may have if the NHS was overwhelmed but it wasn't. Those that are getting ill now would have got ill previously without a lockdown. If you said that it extends lives by a small amount I couldn't argue with that.
Report punts November 29, 2020 5:05 PM GMT
Just turned on the radio and the "news" said there was an ILLEGAL RAVE in Brum and officers were attacked when trying to break it up.

I don't condone violence but I do condone the spirit of an illegal rave... I'm sure some of the older posters here can tell us about them in the 80's Laugh

More civil disobedience the better.. RESIST!
Report truehoncho November 29, 2020 5:22 PM GMT
It was barn dances in my day. We used to meet up in remote barns and the police would chase us in their Vauxhall Chevettes. We were such badasses.
Report punts November 29, 2020 5:43 PM GMT
Update... Looks like Labour have been bought off (wonder what they got). The article suggests they will vote for the tier system but as many as 100 Tory MPs won't.

***
Furious Tory rebels today demanded Michael Gove publish the evidence underpinning his claim the NHS would be 'overwhelmed' by coronavirus without the Government's new tiered system of restrictions.

The Minister for the Cabinet Office made the claim on Saturday as he tried to quash a Conservative revolt and persuade MPs to support the curbs when they are put to a vote on Tuesday.

But leading Tories responded with anger to the suggestion as they called for the Government to stick to 'hard evidence, not hyperbole'.

Mark Harper, the chairman of the Covid Recovery Group of Tory MPs which is opposing the measures, told Mr Gove that 'if he genuinely thinks that hospitals would be overwhelmed, then show us the modelling' which proves it.

The vast majority of England - 99 per cent - is due to be placed into tier 2 or 3, with only the Isle of Wight, Cornwall and the Isles of Scilly going into tier 1.   

As many as 100 Tory MPs are said to be considering rebelling at Tuesday's vote because they believe the Government has not yet made the case for the draconian measures.

Labour is expected to back the curbs which means they will almost certainly be agreed by the House of Commons.

But a Tory rebellion on the scale predicted would cause massive damage to Boris Johnson's authority.


Source: MSN
Report 1st time poster November 29, 2020 5:45 PM GMT
if sporting index put a market at a 100 ,sell,sell,sell,
you,ll be getting at least 70 x your stake back, tues night imo
Report punts November 29, 2020 5:49 PM GMT
Uf Johnson is relying on Labour votes to pass his legislation then he is on borrowed time IMO...
Report punts November 29, 2020 5:49 PM GMT
if*
Report brigust1 November 29, 2020 7:16 PM GMT
With 5 and 600 people dying every day Boris does not have to make a case. It is already made. This will go through and make no mistake.

I certainly wouldn't want you watching my back Punts. That also a fact.
Report starkeycars November 29, 2020 9:05 PM GMT
It comes down to which advice do you take that of a load of right wing Tory mp backbenchers or the very top scientists and health experts in the county Confused
Report sparrow November 29, 2020 9:09 PM GMT
I always thought the top scientists and health experts were on the horseracing forum.
Report punts November 29, 2020 9:49 PM GMT
Update:

Johnson is offering more concessions because he is either losing or doesn't want to be seriously damaged.

He is promising another vote in January on the Tier system...

Not sure if this will win round MPs who do not want any lockdown over Xmas/New Year.

We will see.
Report shiny new shoes please November 30, 2020 1:54 AM GMT
Irish government decides to reject NPHET's instructions again.

It's party time
Covids on holidays til 6th jan.
top scientists and health experts are self serving

Free buses for everyone
Report punts November 30, 2020 2:04 AM GMT
Pubs and restaurants hit by new coronavirus restrictions will be given extra cash to help get them through Christmas, Prime Minister Boris Johnson is set to announce as he tries to see off a growing Tory rebellion.

The Prime Minister has decided the potential closure of tens of thousands of premises is an unacceptable price to pay for a new system that places 99 per cent of England under the toughest Tier 2 or 3 restrictions from Wednesday.

A Government source said: "There are already grants of £2,000 and £3,000 for businesses in Tiers 2 and 3, but we recognise that we need to do more."

The new tiers system, which has been described as a death knell for thousands of pubs and restaurants, requires all premises in Tier 3 to offer only takeaway service, while those in Tier 2 can only serve alcohol with "substantial meals" – restrictions which will apply to 99 per cent of the country. 

Mr Johnson will on Monday publish an analysis of the economic, social and health consequences of the tiers amid warnings from up to 100 Tory MPs that they cannot back the plans without knowing their effect.

In a letter published on Sunday evening, Mr Johnson issued a direct appeal to the rebels in the backbench Covid Recovery Group (CRG), saying there was “every reason” to hope and believe “the worst is nearly behind us, so now more than ever is the time to demonstrate unity and resolve.”

Between 70 and 100 Tory MPs are threatening to oppose the Government when the new tiers regime is put to a vote in Parliament on Tuesday, and Mr Johnson has had to up the stakes after promises of a review of the tiers in December and vote to end them in January failed to assuage them.

It leaves the Prime Minister relying on Labour votes, and the opposition has previously demanded extra cash for businesses hit by the toughest coronavirus restrictions in order to support the new system.

Labour Party leader Sir Keir Starmer is to decide if Labour backs or abstains in Tuesday’s vote after he met with Professor Chris Whitty, the Chief Medical Officer, on Sunday.

A senior Government source said: "We understand the fact that the hospitality industry has been particularly hard-hit during the pandemic. The Christmas period is a time of year when establishments would expect to be particularly busy so we are looking at how we can support them over the festive period."

The Prime Minister said in a newspaper article on Sunday he "grieves" for the pub trade due to the effect of the restrictions he has imposed.

And in a letter to MPs, Mr Johnson admitted pubs and restaurants – which fear mass closures under the Tier 2 and 3 measures by Christmas – were losing out because “there are only a limited number of settings where you can bear down on transmission” if schools and workplaces were to remain open.

Details of the extra support are expected to be announced this week, possibly before the crucial Parliamentary vote.

Chancellor Rishi Sunak is understood to have signed up to the plan, which is likely to be funded by extra borrowing in the short term.

In his letter to the CRG, Mr Johnson also pledged new personalised risk assessments to help free vulnerable people from shielding, better communication on how to avoid transmitting the disease, more testing of asymptomatic carriers and regular updates on non-compliance.

At the weekend the Prime Minister had attempted to assuage Conservative rebels by pledging to review all the tiers on December 16 and offering a vote  at the end of January on whether to end the tiers with a sunset clause to abolish them from February 3.

However, Steve Baker, deputy chairman of the CRG, said MPs could not back the plans until they had a comprehensive analysis of whether they were justified.

“We are still waiting for the analysis of the health, economic and social impact. That’s the key thing we have been asking for,” he said.

“The fundamental point is are these restrictions necessary and proportionate to the threat faced by the community as a whole.

“That is the fundamental question when you look at the pain of people losing their businesses, or the 20 and 30-year-olds facing isolation and missing out on the best years of their lives. We need to know if this is necessary and proportionate. It is not enough to say the NHS will struggle because the previous chart turned out not to be true.”

Another senior Conservative from the north of England said: “What they have to have in that assessment if it is to be credible is the number of lives that will be lost a result of lockdown, the mental health problems that will result from unemployment, the number of businesses that will be closed, the cost in GDP terms.

“If they do that, I think it is inevitable that they weaken their argument which is why they have resisted doing it so far.”

There is mounting anger in the hospitality industry at the new restrictions. Legal action is being considered over “flawed and discriminatory” closures of pubs and restaurants after it emerged Government scientists found that the virus does not spread in well ventilated spaces.

Source: Telegraph
Report shiny new shoes please November 30, 2020 2:12 AM GMT
It's all balls we did nearly identical speech here 2days ago.
We used to copy uk policys
Now you copy us.
How ironic!
Report shiny new shoes please November 30, 2020 2:16 AM GMT
does not spread in well ventilated spaces.
How amazing and amusing!
It's been known since march.
Report 1st time poster November 30, 2020 9:23 AM GMT
johnson advising all his so called tory rebels who he has marched down to the bottom of the hill,to stay at the bottom of the hill saves you walking down again next week after my brexit concessions, Laugh,
these so called rebels cant even stomach a rebellion when they no the governments going to get it through anyway,what chance of them ever having the stomach to rebel if it ever led to a government defeat, NAH FOOOKING CHANCE
Report dambuster November 30, 2020 10:10 AM GMT
Ignore everything the govt says,Boris has lost all credibility listening to the Useless Handonhiscock and Whityless, people are sick to death of these two doom and gloom merchants on TV all the time, who have been wrong from day one, Whittyless is a Tommy the Guesser and Handonhiscock is a useless puppet.
On the day Handonhiscock told all the pubs to close at 10pm, he was in the commons bar, p1ssing it up until midnight.
And has for Neil (always wrong)Fergusson, he was telling us what a deadly disease it was, whilst visiting his married mistress and sorting her out in her house,
His genitals must have been in Tier One, while the rest of us were told to lockdown.
The Public must be SENSIBLE, Shield the vulnerable, IF they want to be shielded,
Shield the elderly, IF they want to be shielded, but don't force it upon people, lets all be careful,open up the country, and get on with life.
Otherwise, We'll have more deaths from Suicide, untreated cancer, untreated heart problems and Depression,
FFS Wake up and smell the coffee, fear is a bigger problem than the disease will ever be.
Report 1st time poster November 30, 2020 10:35 AM GMT
every scientist,barrington dec etc,said 3,4 months ago there wouldnt be a 2nd wave
their all on record,sikora,kupta,etc
we,re well on our way to 20,000 more deaths dsince they proclaimed it was over,where,s it going to come back from,herd imunity is taking place blah,blah
and these deaths have happened during months of restrictions,tier,s lockdowns they said wernt needed,
we,d rather they just got back in their box,
predicting no 3rd wave during a harsh 2nd wave you promised wouldnt happen ,isnt a good look ,trust me
Report 1st time poster November 30, 2020 11:03 AM GMT
more money for pubs/hospitality.whichmlabour called for
sunak back to dispatch box to rip up his latest plans,avweeks a long time for sunak these days, Laugh
Report punts November 30, 2020 11:05 AM GMT
Labour are also demanding cheaper rail fares over xmas
Report shiny new shoes please November 30, 2020 1:49 PM GMT
Identical to Ireland ..free buses over xmas.
Coincidence
Sure!
Lol.
Solidarity tax
Kiss 10-15% of ur wage bye bye.
If ur lucky enuf to still have a job next year.I
Report jimnast November 30, 2020 1:55 PM GMT
are pubs the only people struggling ?
Report GAZO November 30, 2020 1:57 PM GMT
more worrying could be the march in london at the weekend,could see those building up all over the country and getting out of hand
Report shiny new shoes please November 30, 2020 1:59 PM GMT
Riots
Germany
Spain
France
Join in a good riot is fun
Love ulster.
Report 23nights November 30, 2020 2:01 PM GMT
nicola sturgeon still banging on about independence while the whole country is in turmoil....wtf
Report sparrow November 30, 2020 2:12 PM GMT
A matter for the Scottish people I would have thought.
Report 1st time poster November 30, 2020 3:02 PM GMT
as opposed to uk,s PM  surrounded by 70,000 dead bodies declaring devolution has been a complete and utter disaster
Report sadlers November 30, 2020 3:15 PM GMT
excellent post from dambuster ,very funny really gave me a good laugh
Report sadlers November 30, 2020 3:28 PM GMT
I don't understand what the benefit of keeping the jocks in the union is .I cannot see any pluses to it,if they wont independence let them have it.Crankie and her crew will bankrupt them in no time.
Report 1st time poster November 30, 2020 3:35 PM GMT
the irony of simple messaging johnsons brexit coalition love ,they vote in a massive majority for scotlnd to leave .bigger than the majority in scotland,
its their mentality fook,em all and everything
Report 23nights November 30, 2020 3:46 PM GMT
1st time poster im beginning to sense your dislike of boris johnson....who would you have preferred or thought would of done a better job with the pandemic/brexit going on.....however im aware mistakes have been made.
Report roggrain November 30, 2020 4:09 PM GMT
For those who claim masks don't work: They may not totally prevent the wearer from contracting the

disease but they are very effective at preventing people passing it on in public. South Korean'

Chinese and Japanese people have for many years worn masks when in public if they have a cold or flu.

The UK's death rate per 1 million population currently stands at 856. Japan is at 17, S.Korea at 10

and China (where they have carried out 160,000,000 tests) stands at 3.

The reason the Government advised not to use masks in public at the beginning of the pandemic is

that they didn't even have enough for the NHS. They simply were totally un-prepared and are therefore

culpable in the deaths and suffering of countless thousands. Not that other European countries have

dealt with it any better. China had 18 new cases recently and no deaths. The only cases they are

seeing is in arrivals from abroad.

If people wear masks there is no need to close shops . Cafes, pubs,restaurants may be more of a

problem. Our Government is run by a bunch of hapless nincompoops who order a three week lockdown

while keeping schools and Universities open! They must think kids can't pass the thing on ! 

It beggars belief!
Report sadlers November 30, 2020 4:23 PM GMT
the uk's death rate stands at 856 per million!That's justification to shut everything down?that number highlights the stupidity of closing everything.On one hand we are told this second wave is so deadly and then they announce that we can have 4000 attending football matches.The whole thing is utter madness and deceit.
Report 1st time poster November 30, 2020 4:32 PM GMT
the tory,s in game management mode ,george eustace saying a 100 rebels,never been more than 70 named rebels,50 talk about it and 30 ish vote against it and johnson claims success in talking down 70 mps who,ve never said they wouldnt vote for tier,s
Report brigust1 November 30, 2020 8:50 PM GMT
Roggrain the difference between us and the Chinese is that when they are told what to do they do it. Too many over here couldn't give a monkeys.

As far as Scottish Independence is concerned we should tell them to build a wall then they can have Independence. Sturgeon knows if she messes up as she surely will  everyone will head south and we will have to pay again. She just wants to go down in history irrespective of the outcome.
Report the dealer November 30, 2020 8:54 PM GMT
The majority already voted to stay, in case you forgot, sturgeon doesn't speak for the whole of Scotland
Report GEORGE.B November 30, 2020 9:04 PM GMT
brigust1 30 Nov 20 21:50 
Roggrain the difference between us and the Chinese is that when they are told what to do they do it. Too many over here couldn't give a monkeys.


I know you're a *CLOWN* who just churns out what you've heard on the BBC and government propaganda, but there are other *EXPERTS* with an opposing view to locking people up in their homes and claiming lockdowns 'work'.

EG The Great Barrington Declaration

https://gbdeclaration.org/
Report shiny new shoes please November 30, 2020 9:04 PM GMT
Ya all should look at numbers for last 5-10yrs mortality.
There roughly the same.
Weakest pandemic known to earth.
Then think wheres the money's gone.
And what's coming next
Future debt.
The emperors New clothes
Report Sir Epicure Mammon November 30, 2020 9:07 PM GMT
https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/do-masks-stop-the-spread-of-covid-19-/amp?__twitter_impression=true
for roggrain
Report N-east Correspondent November 30, 2020 9:11 PM GMT
Labour going to abstain... interesting stance
Report punts November 30, 2020 9:17 PM GMT
Hopefully enough MPs vote against then!

We can end this madness in just a few days!
Report punts November 30, 2020 9:19 PM GMT
Keir Starmer has decided to break with the government in a vote on Covid restrictions for the first time, while the government is scrambling to contain a Tory rebellion by unveiling a multimillion-pound fund for pubs.

The prime minister is to announce new one-off discretionary funding paid to councils for “wet” pubs and bars which cannot open under the strictest new tier restrictions for England, the Guardian understands.

But Labour is understood to believe that support for the hospitality sector must go further, and will abstain in Tuesday’s Commons vote on the tiers system, which is due to replace lockdown rules from Wednesday and put 99% of the country into tiers 2 and 3. The vote is still expected to pass.

Though Boris Johnson will hope to win around some rebels with the new funding, lockdown-sceptic MPs were expressing anger on Monday night at the publication of an impact assessment of the economic and health costs of the stricter tier system.

The report threw down the gauntlet to Tory MPs, warning that letting the NHS be overwhelmed would be “intolerable for our society”, but concluded it was impossible to know whether the economic impact of the new tiers system would be greater than that of taking no action.

It was criticised by some MPs for being thin and repetitive. Mel Stride, the chair of the Treasury select committee, said he was deeply disappointed by the “rehashed” and “frustrating” analysis. There had been repeated calls for its publication.

Starmer’s move to whip Labour to abstain in Tuesday’s vote will prompt fears in Downing Street that Johnson can no longer count on the opposition’s support for coronavirus measures that have become deeply unpopular with his own MPs. On Monday, the environment secretary, George Eustice, acknowledged that up to 100 MPs could rebel.

Starmer will tell his MPs he does not believe Labour should directly oppose the measures because of the need to keep control of the virus. But he will say that, by abstaining, the party can signal that the financial support for hospitality businesses is inadequate.

Starmer, who met England’s chief medical officer, Chris Whitty, on Monday night, said coronavirus “remains a serious threat to the public’s health” and Labour accepted the need for continued restrictions. “However, I remain deeply concerned that Boris Johnson’s government has failed to use this latest lockdown to put a credible health and economic plan in place,” he said.

“We still don’t have a functioning testing system, public health messaging is confused, and businesses across the country are crying out for more effective economic support to get them through the winter months.

“It is short-term government incompetence that is causing long-term damage to the British economy. It is imperative that the government gets control of the virus so that our NHS can be protected and our economy recovers faster.”

The Lib Dems also said they would refuse to back the new system, calling it “arbitrary, confused and chaotic”.

A No 10 spokesman said Labour were abstaining on one of the biggest challenges facing the country. He said: “Keir Starmer is playing politics in the middle of a global pandemic instead of working with the government to find a way through this difficult time for the British people. We will continue to engage, listen and work with MPs who have concerns.”

Johnson and other cabinet ministers phoned rebellious Tory MPs on Monday, highlighting that the government had met many of the demands from the Covid Recovery Group of lockdown-sceptic MPs, including reopening retail and outdoor sports and publishing the impact assessment.

However, many remain concerned about the effect on hospitality in the run-up to Christmas, with nearly 99% of the country heading into tiers 2 or 3.

Source: The Guardian
Report GEORGE.B November 30, 2020 9:56 PM GMT
brigust130 Nov 20 21:50
the difference between us and the Chinese is that when they are told what to do they do it. Too many over here couldn't give a monkeys.

The naivety in this post is staggering. Yes, people tend to do what they're told in authoritarian states, or else...
If you want to live in one why don't you f*ck off there?

I'll point out to you that in Sweden where they're not forced to wear your beloved face nappies or are placed under house arrest, the tens of thousands of deaths they were forecast if they didn't lock down didn't happen.

Oh, and they still have their civil liberties!
Report GEORGE.B November 30, 2020 10:01 PM GMT
brigust130 Nov 20 21:50
the difference between us and the Chinese is that when they are told what to do they do it
. Too many over here couldn't give a monkeys.

Have you heard of the Tiananmen Square Massacre, ysfc?
Report roggrain December 1, 2020 9:37 AM GMT
Thanks Sir Epicure. Read the article and it seems to be saying that people who wear face masks are

not lowering by much if any the chance of getting the virus. However the research did not (and could

not) conclude what effect the wearing of masks has on the passing on of the virus from the wearer

to others and that is a crucial point. Assuming the mask prevents spittal from passing through, it

must reduce the chances of passing the virus on.
Report punts December 1, 2020 9:38 AM GMT
Tory MPs are not happy this morning. Many are warning of the dire consequences of the tier system (job losses, bankruptcies, reduced wages...)

The vote will be very interesting.  Most reports say Boris will get it through.
Report roggrain December 1, 2020 9:52 AM GMT
< Forgot to mention: A possible reason why masks don't protect the wearer fully is that the virus

could enter via the eyes.
Report FELTFAIR December 1, 2020 10:15 AM GMT
If you work in "clean" manufacturing areas producing medicinal products then full gowning is required including a mask. This is to protect the product from the operator and not to to protect the operator from the product. Similarly the wearing of masks during this virus situation is to protect others more than protecting you.

Basically just wear one when out and about close to others.
Report GEORGE.B December 1, 2020 10:25 AM GMT
My apologies to ol' sparrow brain, it seems he was right after all, we do have "medical experts" on here, and it would seem the conclusion to draw from this morning's meeting of these great minds is that the virus only moves in one direction.

Read the article and it seems to be saying that people who wear face masks are
not lowering by much if any the chance of getting the virus. However the research did not (and could
not) conclude what effect the wearing of masks has on the passing on of the virus from the wearer
Report 23nights December 1, 2020 10:33 AM GMT
all the shops,pubs,barbers etc are opening round here tomorrow with some rules..im in tier 2...george b what tier are you in..its sounds like tier3 to me ?
Report roggrain December 1, 2020 10:52 AM GMT
George. Perhaps you didn't read my additional post. Am I wrong in thinking viruses can enter through

eyes?
Report GEORGE.B December 1, 2020 10:55 AM GMT
Yes, roggrain, from what I've read that apparently is an easy transmission route through membranes.

We'd better start wearing space suits.
Report 23nights December 1, 2020 10:57 AM GMT

Dec 1, 2020 -- 4:33AM, 23nights wrote:


all the shops,pubs,barbers etc are opening round here tomorrow with some rules..im in tier 2...george b what tier are you in..its sounds like tier3 to me ?


any answer george b.?

Report roggrain December 1, 2020 10:57 AM GMT
No need George, as long as those around us in shops etc are wearing a mask!
Report GEORGE.B December 1, 2020 11:03 AM GMT
Jenny, the govt medical spokesperson who was at some of the briefings, a few months back she explained why it was utterly pointless making kids wear masks, touching them, taking them off, putting them down, putting them back on, sticking them in their pockets with their sweets and loose change, whatever.

And actually increasing the risk of transmission.

All sounded perfectly logical.

Of course now, the social media giants (who are deciding such matters on our behalf) have apparently designated the footage as covid 'misinformation'!
Report GEORGE.B December 1, 2020 11:06 AM GMT
23nights, good luck with your tiers.

I will continue to abide by the law, that's all I have to say.
Report 23nights December 1, 2020 11:28 AM GMT

Dec 1, 2020 -- 5:06AM, GEORGE.B wrote:


23nights, good luck with your tiers.I will continue to abide by the law, that's all I have to say.


dear o dear george why do you find it so hard to say what tier you are in..are you a paranoiac.Mischief

Report sparrow December 1, 2020 11:33 AM GMT
We all know the answer to that one 23nights. Grin
Report Tiger Tiger December 1, 2020 11:44 AM GMT
WRONG FORUM MUPPETS.
Report stewarts rise December 1, 2020 12:07 PM GMT
Yes fellas please stop posting informative and interesting topics on this forum, you must leave room for the myriad of interesting Horse Racing threads that tiger tiger posts everyday!
Report Tiger Tiger December 1, 2020 12:47 PM GMT
Thank you.Crazy

Now ferk off to the correct forum and take this boring shyte with you.
Report Platinum December 1, 2020 12:53 PM GMT
The politics has forum has obviously been closed down.
Report brigust1 December 1, 2020 8:36 PM GMT
George B your stupid response isn't even worth my time discussing. There was a chance I thought you had more sense than that. I was clearly wrong there too.
Report GEORGE.B December 1, 2020 8:47 PM GMT
brigust130 Nov 20 21:50
the difference between us and the Chinese is that when they are told what to do they do it.


Only one of us is stupid and it's *YOU".
Report GEORGE.B December 1, 2020 8:52 PM GMT
Look up Tiananmen Square Massacre
Look up persecution of the Muslim Uyghur minority
Look up new authoritarian security laws in Hong Kong

and then come back and tell me why you think the Chinese, as you put it, "when they are told what to do they do it".

YSFC.
Report GEORGE.B December 1, 2020 9:02 PM GMT
brigust1 30 Nov 20 21:50
the difference between us and the Chinese is that when they are told what to do they do it. Too many over here couldn't give a monkeys.

Couldn't give a monkeys about what?

The right to question government policy?
The right to peaceful protest?
The right for free speech?
The right to complain when livelihoods and businesses are being destroyed, and non-Covid medicine such as cancer diagnoses / treatments are delayed / neglected?
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