That's not a dead heat

Well Twitter are great at calling results so I take then over the rules anyway.

Don't worry lads (The BHA). Millions of pounds at stake and that's the best you can do? Pathetic!

Why don't they start 30 mins earlier, theres only 6 races and you don't have to re jig train times or anything as theres no spectators.

decided to tune in to Luck on Sunday to see if this got any sort of mention...

sadly not...

and Rishi Persad is the guest...

telly switched off.

LOL Happy...

"carpet" and "swept" comes to mind...

dambuster - what a stupid idea! That would involve someone who makes the calls on race start times using their intelligence rather than pandering to the television stations' demands.

Nov 14, 2020 -- 9:15PM, howard wrote:

HH , you could be right but I don't think so. Having looked at all evidence ITV RUK BHA Twitter I believe there are lighter patches on the print that makes it look as if the far side horses head is on the line.

That's how I see it, too, Howard. Either the farside horse has a lighter end to its nose or the lighter bit is a gap between the end of its nose and the line. It's unfortunate (IMHO), that the noise (digital grain) that is present throughout the picture kind of makes it look like it is the end of the horse's nose rather than what I believe to be a gap. 

(not involved financially at all)

Cornelius Lysaght to Skelton you would accept a dead heat wouldnt ya? Skelton absolutely. Comedy Gold

from RP

With on-course judge Guy Lewis unable to be certain who had crossed the line first in the murky conditions, there was no option but to call the dead-heat, the BHA later asserted.

So why did he release a photo with a line on it "evidencing" a dead heat?

was he not releasing a photo showing he was unable to decide due to poor light?

In this instance in the dark conditions it was not possible to say with certainty that either horse finished in front, even despite the fact that the judge has access to a higher definition image than is posted online

He puts the line on it - where he likes. He merely has to state that in bad light, he can't separate he horses. Which he didn't. He released a photo with is line on it stating that that photo evidenced a dead heat.

if the BHA has any common sense about it then it should publish the HIGHER DEFINITION image Guy Lewis gave his judgement on...

but i very much doubt they will.

never saw that when the result was posted, all they did was call a dh and post a pic, no explanation, they added the bad light bit later

yes they added that after the controversy broke - as I said the photo was released where the judge pit his line on it stating that it was evidence of a dead heat, not evidence of incompetence by racetech.

Guy Lewis i think he used to be a Conditional for Paul Nicholls, he wasn't much good at that either.

hazards of racing, someone said a few weeks ago that something wouldn't happen, when the odds however small say that one day it will, this is just another one of those once in a blue moon scenarios, bottom line is even when you think you've won you might not have, occupational hazard

Lateral thinking time here. Why not use this to the sport's advantage? Going forward (beyond covid hopefully), why not start meetings in the morning & build in a "lunch break" within the card? Then you will have the possibility of an additional revenue stream (catering/food/refreshments)?

^^^ and it allows the meeting to be completed in daylight

as soon as in running is finished then so am i with horse racing....

and with ATR pics either being slowed down or completely unusable...

and RTV pics not being speeded up as they should have been a long time ago...

and with the authorities doing rock all about facetime pics (from all sorts of sources) and drones especially being a country mile ahead of stay at home BLV players then that day is on the horizon in the not too distant future for me...

which is far more of an issue than 1 race in the dark where a few folk did their nuts in on the photo finish...

well in my view it is at  least.

Blimey this thread has conflated overnight . I think the judge took a sensible common-sense decision given the prevailing information at his disposal. I have some sympathy for Ishkhara Lady backers, but they still got a decent return. Nobody died.

they did banded [ bandit ] racing started 11ish

what about the backers at sub 1.1, did they get a good return?

decided to tune in to Luck on Sunday to see if this got any sort of mention...

sadly not...


was covered in the Talking Points section (10:22am)

will check that out then duncan...

thank you for that info.

They knew the risks. The commentator Richard Hoiles even flagged it as pitch black out there as soon as they went past the line.

Storm Alert...

i very much doubt any in running players were watching ITV Racing at that particular moment in time...

and no disrespect to Richard Hoiles...

but i think the vast majority of us knew it was bleak out there as the race was playing out.

at least it saves h cobbden explaining away the worst ride on a bumper horse anyones ever seen, it was deffo dark when cobbden eventually crossed the line

I was replying to post re sub 1.1, which must have been early photo finish prices as I can't believe anybody was backing at sub 1.1 in running. The race was nip and tuck between the two horses right up to the line.

They'd weighed in by the time 'live' ITV coverage came to the end of the race.

However, anyone watching on RacingTV could within 3 secs of the finish clearly see that the Fry mare had won clearly. Those with access to Racetech at least 2 secs earlier.

What hasn't been discussed here is the role of the stewards. I believe in the summer, at Sandown, the stewards delayed the weigh in to question the judge's official declaration of the race result. An amendment was duly made by the stewards and then the weighed in signal was given.

At Cheltenham it is tempting to say that the stewards were so keen to get home in the desperate weather that they didn't give due consideration to the implications caused by the judge's decision.

Whatever the reason for them not to question the validity of the official result they are guilty of not following due diligence procedures as they have access to all video coverage and must have watched the clear video evidence of the finish.

For future confidence in the integrity of the sport Saturday's Cheltenham stewards panel should be requested, on mass, to attend a debrief of their actions in front of the BHA Disciplinary Committee.

according to what i read on the RP website the stewards gave it the thumbs up loper...

here is the quote in fact...

Therefore a dead-heat was correctly called and this decision was verified by the stewards, as is standard procedure.

But was due diligence seen to be done, HH?

As a certain infamous character so memorably declared, 'they would say that, wouldn't they'.

If you look closely, the Skelton filly has a very pale muzzle which is almost invisible. In my opinion, having blown up the picture, it is the correct result.

we can only go by what we are told loper...

whether you believe it or not is up to the individual...

personally i do believe the correct procedures were followed by the judge and stewards...

Hibby they published a photograph purporting to evidence a deadheat, with a line on it.

Bottom line is don't get involved in photos in fading light.

Judge has carte blanche to bottle it.

If you are on a wind up, Sageform, then its worked.

Your Trumpian fake alternative fact is laughable.

Elle Est Belle is a bay filly, without any lighter patches on her entire body.

If you are familiar with equine descriptions then you will know that a bay horse is brown with dark brown or black extremities, for instance,, lower limbs, mane, tail and MUZZLE.

Draw a straight line along Ishkara Lady's head then Elle Est Belle's head. IL head is closer to horizontal than EEB head. I have put the picture up on my big TV stood back about 10ft and squinted it doesn't even look close unless you believe EEB all of a sudden has unusual shape/pale muzzle (doesn't have in other races). Still beleive the judge couldn't call it with absolute certainty though.

There is a slowmo of the horses coming to the line on the RP result (closing stages replay). There is absolutely no way that Elle est belle is ahead till after the line in the last part of the race.

Cant believe people think it was a fair result or common sense, it wasnt even close, the fry horse won.

Nov 15, 2020 -- 11:34AM, Storm Alert wrote:

Blimey this thread has conflated overnight . I think the judge took a sensible common-sense decision given the prevailing information at his disposal. I have some sympathy for Ishkhara Lady backers, but they still got a decent return. Nobody died.

There was £200k matched at 1.03 and below.  Try telling them that they got a decent return for their money!

Yeah the stewards couldn't see an obvious error because the picture wasn't clear enough. So they thought we've done our job and we are covered on ant future decision the judge will be to blame.

Anybody trying to buy money at 1.03 in a photo needs their heads testing!

RTV should be doing their job properly at Cheltenham today and get the head honcho steward to explain what went on and release the photo of the higher definition image Guy lewis looked at when determining his outcome...

it's basic 'journalism' that.

i mean they're quick enough to get bookies reps on there talking about ante post races nobody gives a t0$$ about...

yet a meaningful piece of investigative journalism is bypassed (probably)...

loper, if you are right about the Skelton filly, it must be an optical illusion. The judge clearly saw what I saw. I have measured the horses heads from ear to nose and if you include the pale "muzzle" they are the same length, if you don't then one has a much longer head than the other.

Anybody trying to buy money at 1.03 in a photo needs their heads testing!


Matter of opinion but i'd suggest 999 times out of 1000 you'd be collecting @ 1.03 in those circs (ie clearly in front and not caused interference), so that would make 1.03 great value...you're getting 1.03 on jock weighing in/photo equipment working properly

doesnt look to have a pale muzzle to me on replay...no paler than the other horse

https://www.thesun.co.uk/sport/horseracing/13202181/cheltenham-race-dead-hea...

Sageform,

go onto the Racingtv website and watch the race replay. They have a close up shot of both horses pulling up after the line and the clip ends with the clearest freeze frame of the Fry filly winning by a short head, not a nose.

https://www.thesun.co.uk/sport/horseracing/13202181/cheltenham-race-dead-hea...

LOL!!!!!!!!!!!

The Sun thinks that bookmakers have been robbed because they had to pay out twice!!!

funny though

I don't know what the likelihood of close photo finishes being called wrong (let's say 1.03 or shorter then) or how many a year but doubt there are more than a few 100's pa at most. I can think of four incorrect calls in last coupe of years alone, two at Kempton and two at Sandown. And these weren't photos taken in the dark.

What's the excuse for one ?  But in this case either the nearside has won OR the camera equipment doesn't have the same angle to work on as the itv graphics. And it's not a small difference if that's the case. Either the result is changed or equipment changes ( official more likely than itv imo )  needed.

result will get altered in next week or so ( Ishkhara Lady  ), scant consolation for the people who backed the winner.

1.03 gtreat value
if correct photo/judge etc is called
failed this week
weighs in
failed this week
and still any stewards/disqu to navigate

think i,ll leave those 1,03 alone,and it wasnt even clear cut no one on itv,ruk,track were calling the winner despite watching it a 1000 times from every slow mo angle

No it won't (nap). They have procedures which were followed correctly, so they say.

Why would they do anything? It's not worth the investment in new equipment and this probably happens once every how many years? Knowing my luck they will introduce flash photography and my horse will stop to pose like in Mary Poppins.

That's the problem. They would be saying the judge AND the stewards didn't get the right result.  But that's what they should say imo.

Nov 15, 2020 -- 12:46PM, Storm Alert wrote:

Anybody trying to buy money at 1.03 in a photo needs their heads testing!

Ah, so they deserved it!  That makes it alright then!

It would not be expensive to floodlight the finish on all courses. I suppose it might spook a horse or two. The easiest solution is to bring the last race forward 15 minutes at all unlit meetings. No sense racing in semi-darkness, particularly when there are no spectators needing to skive off work.

theres posters on here with a photo,pencils,rulers,blow ups,hrs of looking at itwont take 1,03 now
but without all that in a murky finish live ,some think 1.03 was value

i know this will probably be seen as stating the bleedin obvious...

but if RACETECH's photo equipment was up to modern day standards (or anywhere near in fact)...

all this conjecture about starting the races too late in the day would be irrelevant...

the standard of that photograph shown on the BHA website is completely unacceptable in 2020...

even if they have a better / higher definition one that they are keeping for themselves...

that is the one they have published and it is utterly pathetic in this digital age.

I'm staggered that anybody would take 1.03 on a photo taken in the dark that they haven't seen; rather basing their decision on a television picture from a TV camera high up in the stands when they can't be absolutely certain of angles etc. Still off to watch racing now, hopefully no photo finishes.

Agreed, Hib.  Compare and contrast!
https://www.shutterstock.com/editorial/image-editorial/horse-racing-14-nov-2020-11015853aa

you have murky finishes all the time over jumps...yday was a once in a blue moon occurence, ceratinly not someting that happens once every 33 late-afternoon photos

yes...

just a small difference there latalomne...

it's nearly as unacceptable as the standard and speed of Betfair Live Video now...

hideous.

replying to but without all that in a murky finish live ,some think 1.03 was value

thats blown up 400x its clearly a dead heat with the hidden grey nose on the far side horse the judge can blow it up even more

That's pareidolia, IMHO, Know All.  Continue that "grey nose" on beyond the line and the band running to the right is EXACTLY the same colour.  Your brain is filling in a gap for you that isn't there.

That's a poor turn of phrase given the situation, actually, but your brain is making you see something that isn't there.

Punch!!close!

Yes, lattalomme, the continuation of that band on the other side of the line confirms that there is a distinct gap between the nose of the second and the judge's line.

A nose @ 1.4
No dh here!

lol its nose is there alright me and the judge are right he can blow it up more, well done for getting it right in difficult circumstances all about opinions i backed  it at 30 ish i thought it was very dark , judge under pressure, result well done those that were clever enough to win from a once in a lifetime photo

Bring in VAR 

Looking again, I see what you mean, the power of a white line has fooled me and a few others. I suppose that when I looked at it yesterday, I could not believe that the judge could get it that far wrong, so it had to be a pale nose on the far horse.

As can be seen in today's 1.50 at Cheltenham, the photo finish line is not in the gap in the rails, it is virtually parallel with the jam stick.

That does not excuse yesterday's fiasco, but begs the question why on several racecourses the perception of where the finishing line actually is is inaccurately peddled to the watching public.

The stewards and the course inspector at Cheltenham should ensure that what is peddled to the public should be accurate and not misleading (deliberately or otherwise).

The winning post and the rails need to move up the course by at least a foot, imho.

On the BHA photo-finish photo (click Photo Finish ^)...Jersey Lady who finished 3rd was No. 7.....what's that number doing on Fry's horse??

https://www.britishhorseracing.com/racing/results/fixture-results/result/#!/2020/641/26799/0/

to be fair chelt/bha etc is there for racing not for punters to be betting on photo finishes,thats up to you
its not long since judges were calling results without using/waiting for photo,s

Nov 15, 2020 -- 3:48PM, Tattcorner wrote:

On the BHA photo-finish photo (click Photo Finish ^)...Jersey Lady who finished 3rd was No. 7.....what's that number doing on Fry's horse??https://www.britishhorseracing.com/racing/results/fixture-results/result/#!/2020/641/26799/0/

That's the photo for 3rd place.

Click the arrow on the right of that pic for th photo for 1st place.

Thanks Westdag..doh
What fooled me is the both jockeys nearside had virtually the same head-down position.
Cleared up...thanks.

not long without using ? 1948 wasn't it ?

10 minutes later today so watch out for a close finish.

1st time poster,

I assumed racing WAS for punters to bet on.

I've clearly been under a misapprehension all my punting life!

connections not appealing so deadheat it is

Snow storm at Cleeve hill

Both trainers joined at the hip. And bumpers are merely a schooling exercise.

Might well have thrown the toys out if it was the Mares Novice Hurdle at the Festival though.

Guy Lewis the judge must look like Lenny Peters

Dan Skelton - ex-assistant to Paul Nicholls
Harry Fry - trained in Paul Nicholls' name at Seaborough
Guy Lewis - ex-stable amateur for Paul Nicholls

Join the dots, people!!

If they don't appeal this should be brought up and questioned.  Them sticking together against the likely correct result and punters that keep the whole show going.

Both trainers get a listed win for their mares and the punters get s tuffed. Great.

punters dont lose or benefit through an appeal

There is no appeal because it was a dead heat.

I know that poster. But what changes going forward ? It happens again and connections look after themselves. Two fingers to the punters.  TT are you a cretin ?

I already know the answer from previous posts

Connections should be shouting "change the tech"  like the trainer was shouting "train the staff" at Fontwell. But we get silence cos jointly it's the perfect result for THEM.

https://www.starsportsbet.co.uk/betting-oddities-hard-lines/

Easy enough to define it ......

Very good gray. Let's hope the tv channels show this.