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The Prophet
16 Aug 20 19:46
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Date Joined: 08 Dec 02
| Topic/replies: 568 | Blogger: The Prophet's blog
Hi guys...can anybody kindly help with setting the right return for following bet.

I had a £5 reverse forecast with Sweet Reward and Elegant Love on the 6:10 at Newbury. I had the winner and the second dead heated. The CSF was £18.44 on my forecast.

What should my returns be?

Many thanks

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Replies: 59
By:
penzance
When: 16 Aug 20 19:56
£5 total stake =£46.10
£10 total stake =£92.20
By:
The Prophet
When: 16 Aug 20 20:03
I had £5 reverse f/c ...so total stake stake £10. I believe it should have returned £92.20 but they have returned £46.10 saying that because of the dead heat I get half my stake.

So do toy believe them to be wrong penzance?

Thanks for your help.
By:
The Prophet
When: 16 Aug 20 20:10
Can anyone please confirm?
By:
dave1357
When: 16 Aug 20 20:11
looks to me that the dh is already in the calculation, so you should get 92.20
By:
Hayden
When: 16 Aug 20 20:16
Correct mate should be £92.20

What's confused them is they've forgotten the f/c dividend has already factored in the dead heat by issuing two dividends so in effect they've penalised you twice.

They should know just roughly multiplying the prices then halving it would return just under £100 but they haven't thought it through.


Good luck
By:
penzance
When: 16 Aug 20 20:21
looks to me like those return divs
have already been halved,looking at he
SPs.Not100% sure but thunk you should
get the new divs to your stake.
   GL
By:
dave1357
When: 16 Aug 20 20:21
i just worked out the csf using https://www.flatstats.co.uk/betting/csf-formula

and it is 36.88 so half that is exactly 18.44
By:
dave1357
When: 16 Aug 20 20:30
If this is online you should make an official complaint to a manager and ask it is possible such a blunder was made.
By:
dave1357
When: 16 Aug 20 20:31
*how it is possible
By:
The Prophet
When: 16 Aug 20 20:44
Having had a chat online with a very helpful member of staff, I'm afraid that they are insisting that the return is £46.10, half my winning stake because of betfair's dead heat rules.

I'm certain that this is incorrect but what can i do?

I have asked them to review it, which they said they will. They said that they will email me in due course.

Thank you so much for your replies. It gave me the confidence to go back and query it again.

I will post what they say when I get the email.
By:
saxon farm
When: 16 Aug 20 21:12
Surely there should be 2 separate dividends here?
By:
saxon farm
When: 16 Aug 20 21:15
Dead Heats - If two or more runners dead-heat for first or second place in a forecast, or including third place in a tricast, then separate dividends will be paid out.  If you took a fixed price you will be paid at full odds but your stake will be divided between the number of selections in the dead heat.

This taken from online betting.org.uk
By:
penzance
When: 16 Aug 20 21:16
there is £18.44 & £42.26
By:
Baz_Man
When: 16 Aug 20 21:25
As an ex settler and manager of an on line operation your payout should be 5 x 18.44 no argument
By:
saxon farm
When: 16 Aug 20 21:31
Then as Baz says undoubtedly £92-20 is the correct return.
By:
dave1357
When: 16 Aug 20 21:56
prophet - insist that they forward your complaint to a manager.  Say that this mistake is such a gross error in bet settling it casts doubt on their fitness to hold a ukgc licence.
By:
peckerdunne
When: 16 Aug 20 21:57
bizarre error
By:
dave1357
When: 16 Aug 20 21:58
What is the firm btw?
By:
The Prophet
When: 16 Aug 20 22:15
It's with Betfair dave.
By:
carrot1960
When: 16 Aug 20 22:18
The  CSF divided declared is £18-44 so the returns should be £92-20 , But why are Betfair paying a CSF  return when they don't take the bet ?
By:
dave1357
When: 16 Aug 20 22:39
betfair? - that is utterly shocking.  The largest online betting company, flutter group, doesn't have competent bet settlers.
By:
carrot1960
When: 16 Aug 20 23:01
Betfair don't have settlers anymore it's all done automatically by computer , and they don't take CSF bets in the first place
By:
dave1357
When: 16 Aug 20 23:10
well if their settling system is coded incorrectly that means they have been ripping off people for years.
By:
sparrow
When: 17 Aug 20 08:48
That is shocking considering they were given the chance to look at the bet again and still don't understand how to settle the bet properly.
By:
layemall
When: 17 Aug 20 10:15
Correction Carrot they do, I didn't realise they do but if you are in Sportsbook, horseracing, and click on a price.....then in "betslip" there is a forecast & tricast tab and below says "2nd required"(is that a new feature?). It doesn't then say potential returns when a stake is added, so assume they use the CSF dividend and not their own dividend. What an absolute joke that even when challenged they don't accept that they have settled the bet wrongly.....makes you wonder how many others have been underpaid when there has been a dead heat for 1st or 2nd place for these type of bets?!
By:
San Quentin
When: 17 Aug 20 10:33
What a plonker carrot1960. Displaying all that is wrong with certain humans, convinced they are correct even when wrong. Read the T/C, before arrogantly posting please.
By:
dave1357
When: 17 Aug 20 11:37
layemall, it is quite a complex calc and based on the starting prices of all the horses in the race, so they can't display the "potential" returns.
By:
layemall
When: 17 Aug 20 12:03
Hi Dave....yes, a rough guideline is the price of the winner multiplied by the basic factor of the 2nd(add 1 to the 2nd's price)...i.e a 3/1 beats a 5/2 shot, then the CSF pays roughly 3 X 3.5 = £10.50. I added that bit in my previous post as wasn't sure whether Carrot was correct on a technicality. i.e Betfair calculate/give their own dividends for forecasts and therefore don't do/offer the official CSF.
By:
elisjohn
When: 17 Aug 20 12:15
betfred settlers not knowing their own rule 4 rules
paddy power  not knowing their own rules regarding late horse withdrawn  rules (on here few weeks back)
betfair not knowing c/f rules
bookmakers in general not knowing ante post rules

CryCryCryCry
By:
brians
When: 17 Aug 20 12:21
The Racing Post and Attheraces results sites show separate dividends for each placed horse , so the dh has been taken into account in the published £18.44 they both quote. Therefore you should have  5 times that . Your other £5 is lost because the straight forecast no. 5 to beat the winner is lost.
Returns £92.20.
By:
dave1357
When: 17 Aug 20 12:27
^^^ yes layemall, the rough calc of 1st sp times sp of second plus one (8x5), should have made it obvious to any of betfair's staff involved in this debacle that they were wrong.
By:
mmmalushka
When: 17 Aug 20 13:27
Surely should be 5 x 18.44 for Sweet Reward/ Elegant love
plus 5x 18.44 for Elegant Love/Sweet Reward.      £184.40 would be about right for those prices.
By:
sparrow
When: 17 Aug 20 13:31
Another problem is that you're not talking to the person who settled the bet on their chat service but simply someone who passes and receives messages.
By:
mmmalushka
When: 17 Aug 20 13:32
OOps misread that as 1st and 2cd dheat,£92.20  is the return.
By:
mmmalushka
When: 17 Aug 20 13:32
OOps misread that as 1st and 2cd dheat,£92.20  is the return.
By:
dave1357
When: 17 Aug 20 13:33
mmmalushka - the dh was second not first
By:
dave1357
When: 17 Aug 20 13:33
just in time Grin
By:
carrot1960
When: 17 Aug 20 18:29
San Quenton there in no straight CSF on here  betfair offer there own fixed price  F/C or they offer a  tote  exacta
By:
carrot1960
When: 17 Aug 20 18:34
22.16Forecast Betting
A "straight forecast" is a bet where you name two selections to come 1st and 2nd in the correct order for a specified event.
A "reversed forecast" is when you name two selections to finish 1st and 2nd in any order for a specific event.
A "combination forecast" is when you choose three or more selections in an event, with any of these to finish 1st and 2nd in the race.
Straight, reversed and combination forecasts are available on horse races provided 3 or more entries run in any one race.
Forecast bets are settled in accordance with the industry Forecast Dividend, except where stated below:
If a Straight Forecast is accepted for a race where no dividend declared, the bet will be settled as a win single on the first selection stated.
If you select a Non-Runner in a Forecast bet, the bet will be void. If you select a Non-Runner in a Combination Forecast, all bets featuring the non-runner will be void.
Customers are not allowed to include 'unnamed favourite' in forecast bets.
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